Ok, Ok, Let's Talk Trans

[Crystal]

well, she can adopt the pseudonym Robert Galbraith all she wants (and the irony is not lost on me), but Joanne is not a man.

Maybe she is and she's just too scared to come out and face the people who she revels in being with at present?

 

[Raine]

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[MC74]

Despite attempts to stop the law from going into effect, the Supreme Court has allowed Idaho to ban gender-affirming care for trans youth.

Supreme Court allows Idaho to enforce ban on gender-affirming care for trans youth

The US Supreme Court has allowed Idaho to temporarily enforce a ban on life-saving gender-affirming care for trans and non-binary youth.

www.thepinknews.com

 

[Crystal]

Despite attempts to stop the law from going into effect, the Supreme Court has allowed Idaho to ban gender-affirming care for trans youth.

Supreme Court allows Idaho to enforce ban on gender-affirming care for trans youth

The US Supreme Court has allowed Idaho to temporarily enforce a ban on life-saving gender-affirming care for trans and non-binary youth.

www.thepinknews.com

 

[Raine]

Ha... hahaha. I literally just can't anymore.

Listen we all knew this was bullshit. All along, every single solitary word of it.

But we've definitely hit the apex now. For sure! Right??

Oklahoma commission issues warning against All Elite Wrestling after transgender match

The Oklahoma State Athletic Commission is raising questions about a wrestling match. Why commissioners believe a professional company may have violated rules.

okcfox.com

They need to have a rethink on them there chromosomes too lmao. And way to say the quiet part SUPER LOUD with "non-human" participants.

 

[MC74]

Ha... hahaha. I literally just can't anymore.

Listen we all knew this was bullshit. All along, every single solitary word of it.

But we've definitely hit the apex now. For sure! Right??

Oklahoma commission issues warning against All Elite Wrestling after transgender match

The Oklahoma State Athletic Commission is raising questions about a wrestling match. Why commissioners believe a professional company may have violated rules.

okcfox.com

They need to have a rethink on them there chromosomes too lmao. And way to say the quiet part SUPER LOUD with "non-human" participants.

AEW should tell Oklahoma to fuck off.

 

[Webster]

May she take a long walk off a short pier.

Can the Okalhoma State Athletic Commission join her?

Oklahoma Warns AEW Against Using Trans Wrestler in Women's Matches

Oklahoma, with no due respect, go fuck yourself.

gwforums.com

 

[Webster]

AEW should tell Oklahoma to fuck off.

No, Tony Khan should schedule the next PPV there and have Nyla Rose main-event it.

 

[MC74]

No, Tony Khan should schedule the next PPV there and have Nyla Rose main-event it.

That works too.

 

[Webster]

That works too.

Have lawyers on standby in state and federal court whenever the arrests happen (and given its' Oklahoma, it would happen.)
Better still, WWE should have its' nest BIG PPV (say, Summerslam?) and get TK to have Nyla Rose headline it agst one of their top female stars like Bayley or Becky Lynch...

 

[Raine]

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[Crystal]

Fuck Oklahoma. Fuck that whole state and any state that thinks like it.

 

[Webster]

Fuck Oklahoma. Fuck that whole state and any state that thinks like it.

Well, this is the state that gave us the 1922 Tulsa Massacre so....

 

[MC74]

Book a segment where JR gets beaten up for added measure.

 

[Webster]

Book a segment where JR gets beaten up for added measure.

Hell no. Slag Oklahoma all you want; God knows they deserve it.
Jim Ross on the other hand, is a fucking treasure to the business, even if he is from Boomer Nation.

 

[MC74]

Hell no. Slag Oklahoma all you want; God knows they deserve it.
Jim Ross on the other hand, is a fucking treasure to the business, even if he is from Boomer Nation.

Eh, I'm not in a particularly good mood today, so fuck it. I woke up and chose violence.

 

[Webster]

Eh, I'm not in a particularly good mood today, so fuck it. I woke up and chose violence.

Yeah, I know the feeling; I spent most of the morning filing paperwork to get an emergency DVRO filed agst. an unwanted roommate who I asked this week to leave the house. Much as I want to throw her ass through the nearest fucking window I can get to, I'll let the state of North Carolina throw her ass out.

 

[MC74]

Yeah, I know the feeling; I spent most of the morning filing paperwork to get an emergency DVRO filed agst. an unwanted roommate who I asked this week to leave the house. Much as I want to throw her ass through the nearest fucking window I can get to, I'll let the state of North Carolina throw her ass out.

For me, I had to deal with people and run errands despite not feeling well. I couldn't get a break until tonight, and well, that ended up being shitty considering how the Leafs game went.

 

[Webster]

considering how the Leafs game went.

How'd it go?

 

[MC74]

How'd it go?

We got pulverized by Tampa. Scored some goals very late in the game, but overall, it's been a sloppy run of form for the Leafs the past 4 games. All of them with the team playing sloppy and allowing 4+ goals.

Matthews failed to get goal #70. He finished with 69 while Kucherov netted his 100th assist.

 

[Webster]

We got pulverized by Tampa. Scored some goals very late in the game, but overall, it's been a sloppy run of form for the Leafs the past 4 games. All of them with the team playing sloppy and allowing 4+ goals.

Matthews failed to get goal #70. He finished with 69 while Kucherov netted his 100th assist.

There are certain certainties in life, MJF...
-Death and taxes
-Sunrises and sunsets
-Toronto fizzling out every year

 

[Crystal]

Oh Joanne.

JK Rowling picked a fight with a UK presenter and things are getting stupider by the minute

JK Rowling entered the chat with her usual vitriol.

www.intomore.com

 

[Raine]

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[MC74]

She literally can't stop herself.

If I'm to be perfectly honest, Kirstie Allsopp doesn't come across super great either. The principle idea of finding common ground is fine in theory, but it never applies in practice for anything remotely like this subject. And she is, of course, deeply mistaken about puberty blockers.

Perfection should not be the enemy progress and all that, but... yeah.

In the same way you can't find commonality with an anti-Black racist, you can't find commonality with a TERF/Gender Critical. Their entire conceit is that the people they hate are inferior/dangerous/should be enslaved or killed off. If they could be moved to "tolerance," which is the bare minimum, then they wouldn't be (so offensively) racist/transphobic to begin with.

Nope, you're not going to find any commonality with these people. Forget about trying to rationalize with Nazis, it's a lost cause.

 

[Crystal]

She literally can't stop herself.

If I'm to be perfectly honest, Kirstie Allsopp doesn't come across super great either. The principle idea of finding common ground is fine in theory, but it never applies in practice for anything remotely like this subject. And she is, of course, deeply mistaken about puberty blockers.

Perfection should not be the enemy progress and all that, but... yeah.

In the same way you can't find commonality with an anti-Black racist, you can't find commonality with a TERF/Gender Critical. Their entire conceit is that the people they hate are inferior/dangerous/should be enslaved or killed off. If they could be moved to "tolerance," which is the bare minimum, then they wouldn't be (so offensively) racist/transphobic to begin with.

They're two sides of the same coin and they're STILL arguing. The hypocrites can't even stay on the same page.

 

[MC74]

They're two sides of the same coin and they're STILL arguing. The hypocrites can't even stay on the same page.

Well, we know what to do with those pages.

 

[Raine]

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[MC74]

Basically what always happens, yeah!

Who knew that reactionary movements driven wholly by hate and misinformation would constantly devolve into infighting and self-immolation when the target of their ire isn't directly in front of them?

Just like what happened with Ron DeSantis and Chaya, lol.

 

[Raine]

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[MC74]

Speaking of DeSantis, there's a certain amount of irony of face-value looking at the Don't Say Gay bullshit. Like the idiots drove themselves into a frothing mess that just the idea, the very concept, of LGBTQIA+ individuals existing might somehow convert their sweet, innocent children into Flaming Homosexuals™ or whatever.

But also.

ALSO.

We're going to now mandate that every school in our state teaches children (the bad parts of) Communism.

Gov. DeSantis signs bill requiring teaching of history of communism in Florida schools

Florida school kids as young as kindergarten will soon be learning about the history of communism.

www.usatoday.com

I'm pretty sure learning that other forms of societal governance exist is far more damaging to your way of life than we are there, buddy. Telling kids "thing bad" doesn't work generally, but especially not now in the Age of Information where simply typing "Communism" or "Socialism" into YouTube/TikTok will get them just as many influencers teaching that shit proper as chuds QQing about something they don't remotely understand.

But hey what do I know, right?

They want to scream about children being indoctrinated, and here they are trying to manipulate the education system in their favor. Funny how that works, innit?

 

[Crystal]

Basically what always happens, yeah!

Who knew that reactionary movements driven wholly by hate and misinformation would constantly devolve into infighting and self-immolation when the target of their ire isn't directly in front of them?

TRANS PEOPLES IS PREDATORS! TRANS KIDS AREN'T REAL!

...TRANS PEOPLE ARE A LITTLE BIT REAL, JOANNE, BUT NO TRANS KIDS....

YOU BITCH, FUCK YOU!

 

[MC74]

TRANS PEOPLES IS PREDATORS! TRANS KIDS AREN'T REAL!

...TRANS PEOPLE ARE A LITTLE BIT REAL, JOANNE, BUT NO TRANS KIDS....

YOU BITCH, FUCK YOU!

They both smell like shit. You're welcome.

Couldn't resist posting a Saturnism.

 

[Kat]

And she is, of course, deeply mistaken about puberty blockers.

So let's talk about this. I mean puberty blockers in general, not her being wrong about them.

First off, her statement that nobody under 18 should be allowed to do anything to "permanently affect" their fertility really rubs me the wrong way. I'm so tired of "fertility" being put above every other health concern out there. Yes, some people end up unable to have kids for whatever reason and deeply wish they could later in life. But some people are absolutely miserable because they can't get the healthcare they need because it might affect their ability to have kids that they might want someday. I wish we could all agree that people who currently exist are more important than theoretical future people.

But that rant aside, this topic came up with my girlfriend once, and she generally opposes them too. She says they have long-term effects that aren't great, and we should trust kids and just put them on hormones if they say they're trans. "Kids know who they are" was also something said in response to the Cass report.

I got my first period at 11, so I have to admit, that seems kind of nuts to me. I did not know who I was at that point. I'm sure some kids do, but a big part of being a kid is figuring that stuff out. I can see the argument for doing it younger than 18 in lots of cases, it's not like 18 year olds magically have everything figured out either, but surely puberty blockers generally make sense when kids are first hitting puberty?

Just curious your thoughts on that.

 

[Kat]

They want to scream about children being indoctrinated, and here they are trying to manipulate the education system in their favor. Funny how that works, innit?

Duh, this has always been the actual complaint. "Indoctrination" is just a fancy way to say "teaching my kids something I don't want them to be taught."

If they really have a problem with so-called indoctrination, then maybe what we should really be teaching more of is critical thinking. Let kids question what's being taught if it doesn't make sense to them or conflicts with other things they've been taught. Then it won't be indoctrination. (That word is really hard to type on mobile.)

But I have a feeling they really won't like that.

 

[MC74]

Duh, this has always been the actual complaint. "Indoctrination" is just a fancy way to say "teaching my kids something I don't want them to be taught."

If they really have a problem with so-called indoctrination, then maybe what we should really be teaching more of is critical thinking. Let kids question what's being taught if it doesn't make sense to them or conflicts with other things they've been taught. Then it won't be indoctrination. (That word is really hard to type on mobile.)

But I have a feeling they really won't like that.

Oh, most definitely not. They want people to be programmed to fall in line with them.

 

[Raine]

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[Kat]

I would be curious about the "generally" qualifier on your girlfriend's stance, though. Because I feel like she's probably giving you the cliffnotes version of the longer explanation that the system is rigged? It could vary though.

But like, strictly speaking, puberty blockers are as safe as everything else medically available. People's specific reactions to things notwithstanding, the simple act of delaying puberty is not harmful.

You're right, it was a short conversation without much nuance, which is why I put "generally". I feel weird questioning her on that stuff so I just dropped it. She did give some specific side effect, maybe that it messes with bone density or calcium absorption or something like that?

Maybe it's more of a "being on them too long/late in life" problem than a general problem, like you said. Puberty definitely doesn't need to be delayed until fucking 25.

 

[MC74]

But like, strictly speaking, puberty blockers are as safe as everything else medically available. People's specific reactions to things notwithstanding, the simple act of delaying puberty is not harmful. There is an actual phenomenon called "precocious puberty" wherein some cis children begin to enter puberty too early, and puberty blockers are used - were conceived of - to delay that. It is noteworthy, in fact, that as far as I'm aware Hillary Cass does not point out the existence of this (and as a pediatrician she should absolutely be familiar with it) and does not say that cis children should not receive puberty blockers - only that non-conforming children should be denied that access!

And contrary to what the anti-trans folk are trying to insinuate, puberty blockers are reversible, unlike the changes that occur with HRT itself. Think of them as a safeguard before one makes the decision to fully go ahead with medically transitioning.

 

[Raine]

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[Mark]

What does a shithole city like Baltimore and the LGBTQ community have in common? Nothing but love for John Waters, whose birthday is today apparently. Dude’s a classic, doesn’t even age anymore, and still funny as hell.

 

[Crystal]

What does a shithole city like Baltimore and the LGBTQ community have in common? Nothing but love for John Waters, whose birthday is today apparently. Dude’s a classic, doesn’t even age anymore, and still funny as hell.

Don't forget to smile!

 

[Crystal]

I'm going to send this to my friend who keeps going on about bone density blah blah blah. I had a feeling that was BS but didn't have data to prove it. Thanks!

Damn right! Throw it in their face!

 

[MC74]

Damn right! Throw it in their face!

 

[Kat]

Damn right! Throw it in their face!

You caught the "friend" part, right? Like the article you linked said, a lot of people without malicious intentions buy into this rhetoric because it seems correct intuitively. And after reading the study, it's not completely baseless to say trans women have an advantage over cis women in some cases.

I found this bit to be particularly interesting: "Furthermore, two transgender women and one cisgender woman were excluded from all analyses due to testosterone concentrations exceeding recommended female testosterone concentrations (2.7 nmol/L15)."

I'm sure y'all know it's a thing that some cis women have higher testosterone than is typical for women, and it certainly affects performance. I bet those women are overrepresented among professional athletes. Is that "fair" to women who have naturally lower and more typical levels?

The big advantage that trans women seem to have, based on this study, is their larger than average size. The article mentioned they have better grip strength, but the study says they don't if you control for hand size. So it's just a matter of them having larger hands on average. Again, plenty of cis women are bigger and taller than average, and they're probably overrepresented in sports where that's an advantage.

On the face of it, it seems like maybe sports should be segregated by testosterone levels and body size rather than gender. It does leave the question of where people who are above average in one and not the other should be grouped though.

 

[Crystal]

You caught the "friend" part, right? Like the article you linked said, a lot of people without malicious intentions buy into this rhetoric because it seems correct intuitively. And after reading the study, it's not completely baseless to say trans women have an advantage over cis women in some cases.

Absolutely, I'm just being a smug bitch, lol. That ideology irks me because it was based on assumption, and now we see that while, yes, there are some advantages, grip strength and such, it is a mostly inaccurate approach.

I found this bit to be particularly interesting: "Furthermore, two transgender women and one cisgender woman were excluded from all analyses due to testosterone concentrations exceeding recommended female testosterone concentrations (2.7 nmol/L15)."

I'm sure y'all know it's a thing that some cis women have higher testosterone than is typical for women, and it certainly affects performance. I bet those women are overrepresented among professional athletes. Is that "fair" to women who have naturally lower and more typical levels?

The big advantage that trans women seem to have, based on this study, is their larger than average size. The article mentioned they have better grip strength, but the study says they don't if you control for hand size. So it's just a matter of them having larger hands on average. Again, plenty of cis women are bigger and taller than average, and they're probably overrepresented in sports where that's an advantage.

On the face of it, it seems like maybe sports should be segregated by testosterone levels and body size rather than gender. It does leave the question of where people who are above average in one and not the other should be grouped though.

It's going to be an exceedingly difficult thing to find an adequate solution for scientifically, let alone politically. Hopefully at least now we can stop the blanket bans...though that's unlikely.

 

[Raine]

You need to reply to this thread in order to see this content.

 

[MC74]

You caught the "friend" part, right? Like the article you linked said, a lot of people without malicious intentions buy into this rhetoric because it seems correct intuitively. And after reading the study, it's not completely baseless to say trans women have an advantage over cis women in some cases.

I found this bit to be particularly interesting: "Furthermore, two transgender women and one cisgender woman were excluded from all analyses due to testosterone concentrations exceeding recommended female testosterone concentrations (2.7 nmol/L15)."

I'm sure y'all know it's a thing that some cis women have higher testosterone than is typical for women, and it certainly affects performance. I bet those women are overrepresented among professional athletes. Is that "fair" to women who have naturally lower and more typical levels?

The big advantage that trans women seem to have, based on this study, is their larger than average size. The article mentioned they have better grip strength, but the study says they don't if you control for hand size. So it's just a matter of them having larger hands on average. Again, plenty of cis women are bigger and taller than average, and they're probably overrepresented in sports where that's an advantage.

On the face of it, it seems like maybe sports should be segregated by testosterone levels and body size rather than gender. It does leave the question of where people who are above average in one and not the other should be grouped though.

Yep, that is a thing in cis women that a lot of people don't realize. I know cis women out there who actually have to take hormones in order to compensate for this.

 

[Crystal]

Yay!

My wife surprised her coworkers when she came out as trans. Then they surprised her.

She was ready for one reaction but was greeted with a beautiful response.

www.upworthy.com

 

[Raine]

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[Kat]

Yay!

My wife surprised her coworkers when she came out as trans. Then they surprised her.

She was ready for one reaction but was greeted with a beautiful response.

www.upworthy.com

That's so wonderful to read!

I was nervous coming out as a lesbian at work (which I know is a much more accepted thing than being trans, but one of my co-workers once went on an unsolicited rant about how pro-choice people were somehow responsible for mass shootings in schools, so... you never know), and it was a complete non-issue. People can surprise you in good ways sometimes.