Zell Wolf GWF Zell Wolf Version XI Day 6

[Dean]

I make a fool of myself all the time anyway, so no need.

 

[Jon]

@Jon's response to my call was so damning though. Just tell them you were aiming at me and changed your mind!

When your question came up, I asked TD if I should respond or ignore. He recommend I ignore it and let it go. I had a response lined up.

I had an inkling from early on he was coupled, but by this point he told us it was you. So I didn't want to blow any plans you two were brewing so I asked and did what he recommended. I assumed he told you we were so I felt it didn't matter either way.

 

[shortkut]

New change made to this game, after the whole metagaming thread/thing. And also me trying to convince Zell to let me murder (Wolf) Avengers as the Jailer/Warden and negating their avenging.

Previously, if the Warden/Jailer was killed then the inmate(s) could immediately use their night actions.

Now, if the weapon is used, the inmates are immediately freed and can use their night actions.

I knew that wasn’t always part of the role!

 

[Raine]

Thanks. I read that last part as only if the warden is killed. I don’t think using the weapon should release them, even if I wasn’t involved, but that’s neither here nor there

I would agree, but then the whole (Wolf) Avenger negating doesn't get covered. Which I still don't agree with.

 

[Jon]

Thanks. I read that last part as only if the warden is killed. I don’t think using the weapon should release them, even if I wasn’t involved, but that’s neither here nor there

Yep, I had thought so too, so I asked for clarification in wolf chat at the time. We weren't aware (Dean and I) until that point. TD knew it all along.

 

[shortkut]

I blame Zell!

 

[Dean]

TD does know the roles really well. He knew a lot of little details about the specific abilities and ways to cancel them. You can tell he studied up on them.

 

[Raine]

I had an inkling from early on he was coupled, but by this point he told us it was you. So I didn't want to blow any plans you two were brewing so I asked and did what he recommended. I assumed he told you we were so I felt it didn't matter either way.

Nope, completely blind. Didn't know who you were, didn't know what your plans were.

Killing @Ben put a real cramp in my style. Wait I still got that saved actually, lessee here...



If you say someone is "Unknown," you might as well just be saying they're Strong. And if you're saying they're "Good," you might as well just be saying they're Regular/Random. It's stupidly, stupidly easy to fake that.

I knew that wasn’t always part of the role!

Uh-oh, 'kut's out here reading roles again guys. I think he's a baddie.

 

[Jon]

TD does know the roles really well. He knew a lot of little details about the specific abilities and ways to cancel them. You can tell he studied up on them.

Oh of course! But that is his thing. And it's part of what makes him so good at this.

 

[Ben]

Killing @Ben put a real cramp in my style.

Mine too.

 

[Fool's Requiem]

Spoiler: Late night ramblings

hey guys, I was tired but because my internal sleep schedule is jacked, I have difficulties getting to sleep, so I read this thread.

Lovers have TWO possible win conditions.
1. Win as lovers.
2. Win with your assigned team.

Because you're a lover with someone on a different team, it's assumed your have to "screw over" someone. And if other people who only have one win condition find out that you're lovers, they are obviously going to try to make it so that second win condition for the lover doesn't happen.

Here's the thing... that lover can still win with the team that they're attempting to screw over. Lovers is supposed to give you two options to win. If you can't win one way, you can still try to win another way. Since the SK was found out super early, lovers have a ~67% chance of winning. I feel like it should be less of a pain for the lovers because your odds of winning are pretty good. Hell, even the Cupid can still win with town in the couple is slayed.

Based on what I read, there's a bit of a conflict going on with the "it's just a game" and "play to win". It can be both. This is just supposed to be fun and you can still try to win. I feel like most of the conversating on this forum happens in these games, and they get really engaging. People don't even talk about the game for a lot of it. It's quite fun (if you can keep up). It makes it easier to not worry about losing (as much) while still wanting to win.

IDK, maybe it's just because I expect to lose all the time. I think I got a bit better of not getting irrationally upset of these games after the first couple Zell games. Some games I'll take seriously, like the Kat organized game, but at this point, I've gotten to the "I know it's just a game" point. I got a shit role, and just attempted to play mind games. I assume they didn't work, because Wolf Seer existed. I had a blast and am disappointed I wasn't like that for everyone. I honestly wish I could do that as wolf.

I also understand that I am not everyone else.

My late night ramblings are complete. I'm pretty sure I'm all over the place.

Um, @Raine, you and TD did a marvelous job at concealing your "relationship." I thought it was you and Kat. I was considering the concept that Dean was Wolf Seer, I knew kut was good (though was completely off on his role, but never thought you and TD were lovers.

I did feel personally sus of Vash, though, so I wasn't correct in everything.

I do think it's hilarious that I assumed TD of being a wolf or a lover after he kept constantly accusing me of being lovers with Dean... and I happened to be right on both accounts. Kinda like my rando "Ryan is the Fool, simply because he randomly brought it up suuuuper early" guesses in one of the early Zell games.

I really need to follow these gut feelings more often. I don't know ANY of you personally and I can only go off what does and doesn't make sense to me based on habits and how Among Us is played. Why would you mention the Fool so early? Why are you claiming Bell Ringer with NO information? Why did you spill your role in the first page of the first game? Why did you wait until everyone started to vote you before you claimed a role? Why would a Priest, Gunner, or Marksman take 3 days to take a shot at someone they feel sus towards? Why do you keep talking about people killing someone over and over? etc.

More ramblings. I'll put a spoiler.

k, imma try to sleep

 

[Zell 17]

This timeline confuses me. I thought when jailed, you cannot participate in any of private chats like couple or wolf. Somehow this info also got to the wolves to kill the warden that same night. Those timestamps match when TD used the weapon against me, but nothing in the warden description says the person who uses the weapon is unjailed after using it. @Zell 17 shy wasn’t TD in jail until morning? That would have changed the entire game. Kelly would out TD, which takes the couple out immediately and we get two sheriffs and keep our protector

He was isolated until he used the weapon. Once the warden doesn’t have two people in jail for any reason, jail is open.

 

[Zell 17]

Attached is wolf chat after Jon was killed.

Okay so here are my thoughts on the whole affair from reading all of the private message. I'll also include how this is gonna get scored.

Vash and TD have separate issues. I can't really intelligently comment on how people feel emotionally about Dean's lying. I basically consider it kayfabe, which I'm sure drawing on his wrestling knowledge/fandom is why he was so good at it. But I know people can see it differently. We talked about this when people were swearing on their daughters and such. The only way you can ban lying about certain topics and still have a game is if you also ban telling the truth about those topics. I think this discussion is being handled appropriately in the community, in that some members are voicing their concerns and other people can responsibly take that feedback and adjust their speech accordingly. I think we are good at this part

Jon mentioned this, but Dean's strategy was discussed pretty heavily in wolf chat and there was general agreement about what was going on. TD was not upset about it. Based on my reading of the lovers +wolf chat, I think TD was upset because he and Raine had a fundamental misunderstanding of the game situation. So they ascribed motivations that weren't there to actions he found inexplicable otherwise.

The rest of this post is going to get heavy into game mechanics so if you don't give a shit move on.

First, and I can't understate this enough, TD put a TON of work into this game. He was the primary strategist, he kept pep-talking the wolves when they were ready to give up, he as usual was heavily invested in the game. But TD thought that the game could only result in a Cupid win or a Village win. So when Dean voted Tommy, he assumed that Dean was working with the village against him out of pure spite. And after he put in all that hard work on behalf of Dean and the wolves, I'm sure that pissed him off. Read the chat where he tries to explain that Dean is mathematically eliminated and gets pissed at him for voting for Tommy because it would guarantee a village win.

But there was a path that TD and Raine didn't see, but Dean did. Dean wanted to lynch out Tubby, and by the time I got to the game tally mid-drive he had already moved his vote onto Tubby. But he also wanted to show Benzine and Kat that he was not coupled. TD did the math assuming that Dean would kill Raine at night, but what Dean told me he was actually going to do is kill Tommy Boy. We'll get to that later.

The start of TD's anger was when Dean resigned without checking Kat. But Kat's role was completely immaterial to the wolves. Why does Dean care what she is? He doesn't need to ever attack her to win. But it was extremely important information for the couple! If she is an Avenger they couldn't win. I don't think this was an intentional play by Dean, but it was actually really smart NOT to check Kat. If Dean checks Kat and she's not an Avenger, TD and Raine can play full bore as Lovers and just vote everyone out. The fear of an Avenger forces TD to consider playing as a wolf a little longer in order to avoid a total meltdown and a village win (as we've seen in some other games).

So here is what was going to happen. Tubby got legitimately voted out at the end of Day 6 when all votes were in. Dean wanted to kill Tommy Boy and there was nothing that could be done to prevent it. Day 7 would have been:

Benzine
Kat
TD
Raine
Dean

And obviously, TD and Raine would have to vote out Dean and Dean would be voting for either TD or Raine. Benzine and Kat would decide who won, the Lovers or the Wolves. If Benzine/Kat voted for either TD or Raine, Dean wins the game. If they kill Dean, TD and Raine win.

So as soon as this game looked like it was going to go sideways and before I posted that the game was over, I asked Kat and Benzine who they would vote. They chose to vote out the lovers.

So, the werewolves are the declared winner for this game. Hopefully people understand how I got to that conclusion.

 

[Local Hero]

 

[Dean]

Zell and the Kayfabe thing makes sense. I tried a play in one of your earlier games where I threw my "team" under the bus and Cole saw right through it and gave me props for trying. Of course, I kinda rage quit for a few games after that, regrouped, and came back with the determination that if I were a wolf again, I would do whatever it took to win, even crossing some ethical lines. Not the greatest feeling in hindsight.

@Cole maybe I should've just let you be right lol

Congrats to @Jawneh and @Jon and especially @TD

 

[shortkut]

Attached is wolf chat after Jon was killed.

Okay so here are my thoughts on the whole affair from reading all of the private message. I'll also include how this is gonna get scored.

Vash and TD have separate issues. I can't really intelligently comment on how people feel emotionally about Dean's lying. I basically consider it kayfabe, which I'm sure drawing on his wrestling knowledge/fandom is why he was so good at it. But I know people can see it differently. We talked about this when people were swearing on their daughters and such. The only way you can ban lying about certain topics and still have a game is if you also ban telling the truth about those topics. I think this discussion is being handled appropriately in the community, in that some members are voicing their concerns and other people can responsibly take that feedback and adjust their speech accordingly. I think we are good at this part

Jon mentioned this, but Dean's strategy was discussed pretty heavily in wolf chat and there was general agreement about what was going on. TD was not upset about it. Based on my reading of the lovers +wolf chat, I think TD was upset because he and Raine had a fundamental misunderstanding of the game situation. So they ascribed motivations that weren't there to actions he found inexplicable otherwise.

The rest of this post is going to get heavy into game mechanics so if you don't give a shit move on.

First, and I can't understate this enough, TD put a TON of work into this game. He was the primary strategist, he kept pep-talking the wolves when they were ready to give up, he as usual was heavily invested in the game. But TD thought that the game could only result in a Cupid win or a Village win. So when Dean voted Tommy, he assumed that Dean was working with the village against him out of pure spite. And after he put in all that hard work on behalf of Dean and the wolves, I'm sure that pissed him off. Read the chat where he tries to explain that Dean is mathematically eliminated and gets pissed at him for voting for Tommy because it would guarantee a village win.

But there was a path that TD and Raine didn't see, but Dean did. Dean wanted to lynch out Tubby, and by the time I got to the game tally mid-drive he had already moved his vote onto Tubby. But he also wanted to show Benzine and Kat that he was not coupled. TD did the math assuming that Dean would kill Raine at night, but what Dean told me he was actually going to do is kill Tommy Boy. We'll get to that later.

The start of TD's anger was when Dean resigned without checking Kat. But Kat's role was completely immaterial to the wolves. Why does Dean care what she is? He doesn't need to ever attack her to win. But it was extremely important information for the couple! If she is an Avenger they couldn't win. I don't think this was an intentional play by Dean, but it was actually really smart NOT to check Kat. If Dean checks Kat and she's not an Avenger, TD and Raine can play full bore as Lovers and just vote everyone out. The fear of an Avenger forces TD to consider playing as a wolf a little longer in order to avoid a total meltdown and a village win (as we've seen in some other games).

So here is what was going to happen. Tubby got legitimately voted out at the end of Day 6 when all votes were in. Dean wanted to kill Tommy Boy and there was nothing that could be done to prevent it. Day 7 would have been:

Benzine
Kat
TD
Raine
Dean

And obviously, TD and Raine would have to vote out Dean and Dean would be voting for either TD or Raine. Benzine and Kat would decide who won, the Lovers or the Wolves. If Benzine/Kat voted for either TD or Raine, Dean wins the game. If they kill Dean, TD and Raine win.

So as soon as this game looked like it was going to go sideways and before I posted that the game was over, I asked Kat and Benzine who they would vote. They chose to vote out the lovers.

So, the werewolves are the declared winner for this game. Hopefully people understand how I got to that conclusion.

Very nice breakdown of what appears to have happened. As the only one with access to all the chats, you were in a unique position to have a different perspective

 

[shortkut]

Indeed


Also, overall I think this was the best game, skill-wise, for a lot of people. It’s just a shame that the skill to play the game requires deception and double crossing, so that does lead to hurting those we care about on the forums

 

[VashTheStampede]

Might wanna go ahead and click to ignore me here for a minute

 

[Dean]

Adding onto the end of Zell's post, there was a third possibility, however unlikely, that there would be a tie between voting for Raine, TD, or me, and voting for someone else. If it were a tie, it would've gone back to the night, and I would've killed Benzine, making it two wolves and two townies. I checked with Zell, and I could've kept TD alive in this scenario, because the game mechanics ignore the Cupid couple in that situation. If it's two wolves and two townies, the wolves insta-win, regardless of specific roles.

 

[VashTheStampede]

I am very happy that we were able to work out what was most important here: the internet points.

 

[Dean]

I am very happy that we were able to work out what was most important here: the internet points.

I want a hairy badge and for Cole to give me props, and then I can have a Merry Christmas

 

[Local Hero]

I am very happy that we were able to work out what was most important here: the internet points.

I honestly didn't realize there was any point system. I thought each game was it's own contained thing, which we all tried to win.

 

[VashTheStampede]

 

[Local Hero]

View attachment 5068

Did I miss something?

 

[shortkut]

I am very happy that we were able to work out what was most important here: the internet points.

I don’t think that was the point in Zell’s post

 

[VashTheStampede]

Did I miss something?

Just some A1 Kickass Gameplay

 

[shortkut]

Did I miss something?

In an early game Dean swore on the life of his child that he was telling the truth and everyone was “woah, it’s just a game, stop”

In this game Dean lied/embellished anxiety/depression to feign innocence

 

[VashTheStampede]

I'm sure that you will all be very happy to hear that I've decided to cancel my retirement and I very much look forward to the next game I get a chance to play in.

 

[Dean]

These games do legitimately stress me out and give me anxiety. My eye was twitching the whole game, although Christmas doesn't help.

 

[Local Hero]

In an early game Dean swore on the life of his child that he was telling the truth and everyone was “woah, it’s just a game, stop”

I was here for this. I was of the party that it wasn't acceptable. Which I think mostly everyone was on the same page here.

In this game Dean lied/embellished anxiety/depression to feign innocence

I don't think I saw this one. I'll comment on it without seeing it as well lol

Definitely not in the same ball park as swearing on the life of a loved one.

However, @Dean (and @everyone), as an unbiased person who thought you played well and did not play in this game, let's all take a step back and reflect on how some may react to methods of deception.

Love and peace

 

[Dean]

The usual deception is calling people stupid and bullying them into agreeing with you, taking advantage of people's insecurities or complexes. We are all a little fucked up.

 

[Local Hero]

The usual deception is calling people stupid and bullying them into agreeing with you, taking advantage of people's insecurities or complexes. We are all a little fucked up.

I don't like this method either.

 

[VashTheStampede]

The usual deception is calling people stupid

That shit is fucking obnoxious and horrible too.

Goddamn children.

 

[Local Hero]

Here's what's acceptable:
"Hello, I'm Benzine and I'll the Bell ringer. I watched this person die and this person's a wolf"

"Thank you, Benzine. We will act upon this information with trust, absent of any caution or skepticism"

"Crickey, Benzine is a wolf! Well done, young lad!"

Credits

 

[VashTheStampede]

Nah, man, Pandora's Box is open.

Let's really do this shit.

 

[VashTheStampede]

Next Mafia Game Tell: Be a decent human being

 

[Local Hero]

Nah, man, Pandora's Box is open.

Let's really do this shit.

 

[Kat]

In this game Dean lied/embellished anxiety/depression to feign innocence

IMO he wasn't faking being stressed, just the reason for it. By the end of the third day, I was convinced he was a wolf partly because he was waaay too stressed to be a townie.

 

[Advocate for Ants! Mouth]

Next Mafia Game Tell: Be a decent human being

I'll happily be put on trial for not being a jackass.

 

[Dean]

IMO he wasn't faking being stressed, just the reason for it. By the end of the third day, I was convinced he was a wolf partly because he was waaay too stressed to be a townie.

If only people knew how much sleep I lost and had bad my eye was twitching during this game. I probably looked like I was tweaking.

 

[VashTheStampede]

IMO he wasn't faking being stressed, just the reason for it. By the end of the third day, I was convinced he was a wolf partly because he was waaay too stressed to be a townie.

Dude literally said his plan from the beginning was to be a massive piece of shit and do exactly what he did.

I definitely believe it stressed him out. We've talked in private.

But let's not act like it wasn't just a byproduct of his exact intent.

I believe he feels bad about what he did. I don't hold enmity towards him for it, because we talked it out and we go way back.

But all these people saying Heck Of A Job! when he himself knew it was fucked up...

Or maybe he's lying about feeling bad about it. And I'm just falling for it again.

I don't think he is, honestly. But no one else seems to think he did anything wrong. So why would he feel bad?

 

[Ben]

I'll happily be put on trial for not being a jackass.

You're the A jackass.

 

[Dean]

Dude literally said his plan from the beginning was to be a massive piece of shit and do exactly what he did.

I definitely believe it stressed him out. We've talked in private.

But let's not act like it wasn't just a byproduct of his exact intent.

I believe he feels bad about what he did. I don't hold enmity towards him for it, because we talked it out and we go way back.

But all these people saying Heck Of A Job! when he himself knew it was fucked up...

Or maybe he's lying about feeling bad about it. And I'm just falling for it again.

I don't think he is, honestly. But no one else seems to think he did anything wrong. So why would he feel bad?

Damn. I really do feel bad. I guess I can see why people won't believe me. Honestly a lot of the shit I said/did in the game crossed a line with me, but I felt like I was in too deep.

Now that the game is over, yes, I really did regret some of it. I didn't completely appreciate or even realize how vulnerable you were being at the time, and in hindsight, it makes me feel even worse, so at least there's that.

I'm gonna be busy today and tomorrow with family Christmas, and it's probably best I take a break for a while. I'll try to pop in the Aussie game, but don't expect much activity from me. I think I need a break from the site. Not a long one, but a break.

 

[VashTheStampede]

I get that I'm the only person complaining. And I'll stop overtly complaining once this thread has run its course. Though, please expect plenty of sarcasm and satire on the subject in the future.

It's a problem. It's a problem that is going to work itself out, one way or another. Looking around at how many people are hanging around compared to months ago, it seems to be working itself out pretty quickly.

 

[shortkut]

IMO he wasn't faking being stressed, just the reason for it. By the end of the third day, I was convinced he was a wolf partly because he was waaay too stressed to be a townie.

I mentioned this in the dead thread, but I felt like he was embellishing. He posted a lot more frequently than normal and seemed overly dramatic compared to his normal posts

 

[Advocate for Ants! Mouth]

I get that I'm the only person complaining. And I'll stop overtly complaining once this thread has run its course. Though, please expect plenty of sarcasm and satire on the subject in the future.

It's a problem. It's a problem that is going to work itself out, one way or another. Looking around at how many people are hanging around compared to months ago, it seems to be working itself out pretty quickly.

It's fair for you to not be happy at all with it. I'm not commenting on it one way or the other simply because I didn't actually read through the threads so I didn't see it play out.

I'm glad I got to see what may have happened on the TD side at least spelled out thanks to the Zell post.

 

[shortkut]

That shit is fucking obnoxious and horrible too.

Goddamn children.

That’s why I always typed it as dumdum and one of the earlier games when I thought I was actually upsetting @Fool's Requiem , I asked for clarification if I was and apologized

 

[Advocate for Ants! Mouth]

New winning condition unlocked: everyone wins if no one gets mad (outside of a "damn I was so close!" or something)

 

[Kat]

The only way you can ban lying about certain topics and still have a game is if you also ban telling the truth about those topics. I think this discussion is being handled appropriately in the community, in that some members are voicing their concerns and other people can responsibly take that feedback and adjust their speech accordingly. I think we are good at this part

I'm not sure we are good. There seems to be a divide on what's acceptable and what isn't. I agree that you're fundamentally right about if we don't allow lying about it, we can't allow telling the truth either. Nobody swearing on anybody's life regardless of whether they're swearing a true thing or not seems reasonable to me. But not allowing any emotional manipulation... I understand why some people don't like it, but what is the alternative? If you're faking being a seer and need to justify missing your reads and persuade people you are good despite it, what do you do? Especially if you would actually be frustrated and feel insecure if you really were a seer and that happened? Should people not express that genuinely as townies because it's emotional manipulation when it's false? You can't have it both ways if you want it to be possible for wolves to win. And the game is pointless if wolves can't win.

 

[Local Hero]

I don't think he is, honestly. But no one else seems to think he did anything wrong. So why would he feel bad?

For the record, I said I didn't see what these comments you're referring to, and stated we shouldn't use questionable methods to deceive.