Zell Wolf GWF Zell Wolf Version XI Day 6

[VashTheStampede]

Hey, while we're talking about what rules we may and may not want to institute:

How about no one jumps into a fuckin game they're not involved with to talk shit when people are having it out?

Can't believe that asshole.

Jumping in and voting to skip when he died the previous night.

 

[shortkut]

Or maybe he's lying about feeling bad about it. And I'm just falling for it again.

I don't think he is, honestly. But no one else seems to think he did anything wrong. So why would he feel bad?

The road to hell is paved with good intentions. Even if he did nothing wrong, and even if we all agree on that, he can still feel bad due to the law of unintended consequences as we see here with TD

 

[GwJumpman]

Maybe let's just not play Wolf in a way that would make friends genuinely concerned for them like something was actually wrong

 

[VashTheStampede]

Maybe let's just not play in a way in Wolf that would make friends genuinely concerned for them like something was actually wrong

Never should have killed you, man.

 

[shortkut]

Never should have killed you, man.

I wanted to keep him alive, thank you very much

 

[Advocate for Ants! Mouth]

Maybe let's just not play Wolf in a way that would make friends genuinely concerned for them like something was actually wrong

GwJumpman? More like GwGoodideaman

 

[VashTheStampede]

I'll try to pop in the Aussie game, but don't expect much activity from me.

Smart play, set it up in another thread. I see you.

 

[shortkut]

GwJumpman? More like GwGoodideaman

There’s a reason my CT is just idea man. I mix both good and bad together

 

[VashTheStampede]

Ok I'm done for now

Until it gets torn open again

 

[shortkut]

Ok I'm done for now

Until it gets torn open again

 

[shortkut]

Hey, @Zell 17 , I see you said tubby was going to be voted off, but it looks like Dean has the most votes at the time of poll closing, so maybe the town wins this one?

 

[Advocate for Ants! Mouth]

Ok I'm done for now

Until it gets torn open again

 

[Raine]

Just putting it out there that I'm actually in complete alignment with Vash, I just don't have the emotional bandwidth to get into it.

The morale of the story is actually this: With the official conclusion being that the wolves won - I disagree in generality for how we reach this conclusion, but not the conclusion itself and see above - then the only thing that actually matters is that the reality you have is left marred, hollow and empty. Whereas the one you could have had, if you believed in someone that believed in you, would be completely different.

I do not believe that TD and Vash are different in their issues/complaints. And until such time as we all come to understand that, this will keep happening or parts of the game has to change.

Based on what I read, there's a bit of a conflict going on with the "it's just a game" and "play to win". It can be both. This is just supposed to be fun and you can still try to win. I feel like most of the conversating on this forum happens in these games, and they get really engaging.

Everyone else is going to ignore this post since it came in so late. But I see you, boo.

Invariably it can and is both. In my opinion, at least, the best approach for something like Cupid isn't outright betraying at all - it's just independently scheming and positioning the town to get what you want. Letting the town ultimately decide which group lives long enough to claim the prize.

But not allowing any emotional manipulation... I understand why some people don't like it, but what is the alternative? If you're faking being a seer and need to justify missing your reads and persuade people you are good despite it, what do you do?

Just admit you fucked up and move on? We make bad plays on a regular basis, why is a Seer held in any higher regard? I'm still certain @Benzine lied about seeing TD and Tommy until Zell posts the log and definitively proves otherwise.

The bottom line is this: If you're "emotionally manipulating" to a point where I can no longer reasonably discern between your in-game banter and your real life self, where I start to question and wonder and doubt whether you are a... good person isn't necessarily what I'm going for, but I'm really beyond my limit right now so please allow some wiggle room, then the only thing I can do is not play. It is, as Vash's meme says, the same thing that happens if you lie about a loved one. Suddenly it's not a game anymore, it's a very real judgment on the actual person's character. And that's way too far.

Maybe let's just not play Wolf in a way that would make friends genuinely concerned for them like something was actually wrong

Or, essentially, this.

The first couple of weeks of GWF were most of us openly sharing our life experiences and trauma. Let's try to find ways to lie in stupid, fun ways instead of likely/potentially harmful ones. That's all.

 

[VashTheStampede]

The subtext in my meme is that Dean was, in fact, the loved one.

 

[Local Hero]

The subtext in my meme is that Dean was, in fact, the loved one.

 

[Fool's Requiem]

Might wanna go ahead and click to ignore me here for a minute

[Insert Captain America "No, I don't think I will" meme here]

The usual deception is calling people stupid and bullying them into agreeing with you, taking advantage of people's insecurities or complexes. We are all a little fucked up.

This is what pissed me off about the Zell game where I got Serial Killer. It felt like @Ants! and I were being bullied into spilling out roles because everyone else did. I was being told to "play the game" while also being told "Tell us your role or you die tonight." It felt unfair and mean-spirited. I don't do so good at lying because it means I have to constantly cover it up with more lies and I know at some point people are going to figure out I'm full of shit, so my angle is to be vague, but they didn't like that.

It felt like they knew I would cave at some point and kept pushing me into caving. It was not fun. This is why I will never (seriosuly) tell people to share their role. Besides, I like trying to guess who is what based on actions and comments.

@VashTheStampede, I was joking but also not joking about using priest on my lover. If I ever get Priest again, I am 100% spraying water on someone day one, whether or not I'm lovers with someone. I feel like if my lover was Priest and used it on me, I'd find it hilarious.

 

[Raine]

It felt like they knew I would cave at some point and kept pushing me into caving. It was not fun. This is why I will never (seriosuly) tell people to share their role. Besides, I like trying to guess who is what based on actions and comments.

I was pretty happy with how our exchange turned out in this game, for the record, so I hope that didn't bother you too much. I legitimately missed the end of Day 3 where TD claimed Detective and vindicated you, so that part doesn't count.

But I had a good laugh when you revealed your role to me by claiming that I had it in that silly bit!

 

[Zell 17]

This is what pissed me off about the Zell game where I got Serial Killer. It felt like @Ants! and I were being bullied into spilling out roles because everyone else did. I was being told to "play the game" while also being told "Tell us your role or you die tonight." It felt unfair and mean-spirited. I don't do so good at lying because it means I have to constantly cover it up with more lies and I know at some point people are going to figure out I'm full of shit, so my angle is to be vague, but they didn't like that.

The entire purpose of the game is trying to figure out what the evil roles are. It's like everyone here hates being a wolf because they get pushed and don't know what to do, but when they're villagers they are more than happy to vote and push people.

 

[Zell 17]

[Insert Captain America "No, I don't think I will" meme here]

This is what pissed me off about the Zell game where I got Serial Killer. It felt like @Ants! and I were being bullied into spilling out roles because everyone else did. I was being told to "play the game" while also being told "Tell us your role or you die tonight." It felt unfair and mean-spirited. I don't do so good at lying because it means I have to constantly cover it up with more lies and I know at some point people are going to figure out I'm full of shit, so my angle is to be vague, but they didn't like that.

It felt like they knew I would cave at some point and kept pushing me into caving. It was not fun. This is why I will never (seriosuly) tell people to share their role. Besides, I like trying to guess who is what based on actions and comments.

@VashTheStampede, I was joking but also not joking about using priest on my lover. If I ever get Priest again, I am 100% spraying water on someone day one, whether or not I'm lovers with someone. I feel like if my lover was Priest and used it on me, I'd find it hilarious.

But your comment flipped on a lightbulb for me. Now I understand why people hate drawing the evil roles.

They feel like they are getting bullied. And when they are a villager, they feel like it's their chance to bully. Who WOULDN'T want to be a villager in that scenario???

 

[Zell 17]

I do not believe that TD and Vash are different in their issues/complaints. And until such time as we all come to understand that, this will keep happening or parts of the game has to change.

Dean explicitly asked TD if he should scale it back or plow forward full steam ahead. He's response does not agree with this sentiment.

 

[Raine]

Dean explicitly asked TD if he should scale it back or plow forward full steam ahead. He's response does not agree with this sentiment.

I haven't read the transcript just yet, to be fair.

But these are not mutually exclusive concepts necessarily. Seeing someone doing things to others doesn't hit the same way as when they do the same to you, y'know? Particularly if you're not doing it to them, and especially if you have other external pressures.

Grain of salt and all that. It's just my opinion of the situation.


Working through 10+ pages of happier times, in the meanwhile.

 

[Tubby23]

I've stayed relatively out of the discourse while I gathered my thoughts and have a couple of points.

1. I don't agree with the outcome of the game that was decided. I'm not going to push it because it's just an internet game but I entered a thread not having skipped where it had already been decided that the game was stopped. The town had not conceded the game and I still should have been afforded an opportunity to convince other players to vote out TD, Dean or anyone.

2. @VashTheStampede you're not the only person complaining, I've currently addressed my thoughts on it more directly with Dean but in summary my feelings are that while overall it was playing to a win condition and may appear to have been something that TD was along for the ride with initially I don't like it.
From my perspective I had worked out that Dean was telling lies (and I likened it to the previous time where he was a wolf and swore up and down he wasn't). But on the chance that he was going through an actual personal torment I didn't push on it because I don't want to be the cunt that causes someone personal anguishes to be laid bare and cause then more pain. I get what we are saying about a game of manipulation but there is manipulation that I would view as within the spirit of the game and that which isn't.

3. I think as evidenced by the amount of people who have left the games in a short period (Cole, Ryan, TD etc) for various reasons we need to all have an introspective look at what we think is in the spirit of how we want to play. If this was our actual physical in person friend groups and we had lost this amount of players as a result of the way the game is played we'd likely figure out some new rules of engagement. I think saying it's just a game works for some people and we don't get too pent up on it, but for others it's a lot more and given the level of anonymity that exists here I think at times we don't consider the impacts we can have on others because of things we say or the way we may dismiss people's statements/feelings.

Just my thoughts that I wanted to get out of my head before starting my game in earnest.

 

[Kat]

I think as evidenced by the amount of people who have left the games in a short period (Cole, Ryan, TD etc) for various reasons we need to all have an introspective look at what we think is in the spirit of how we want to play

This is why I posted saying "I don't think we're good". I realize I disagreed with Vash's stance, but I think we can all agree that we don't want people to be hurt or leave the forum over a game. People's feelings are valid, and I do think it's important to set expectations about how these games are played so it doesn't cause hurt feelings. Maybe we need to draw lines and play it differently. Maybe some people need to step out because it's not a game suited to them. Maybe it's a combination of both. But I don't want to say "we're all adults and talked about it so we're good" when we're obviously not.

I personally didn't feel concerned about Dean's emotional state, even though I did post some comforting words and defended him. I always kept it in my mind that it was possibly a play, so I wasn't bothered when I realized it was. I feel like there's a big difference between "frustrated over a game" and "in serious mental distress". It's not like he was threatening to jump off a cliff. I was rolling my eyes at him by the end of the day a bit, it was so over the top.

But I don't suffer from mental illness. That struggle isn't personal to me. I can see why someone who does wrestle that demon on a regular basis would feel differently.

I'm not sure I'd avoid upsetting people while playing as a wolf, because I'm a big believer in "play it like you're a townie". If you don't, people will notice and use it against you. So if you'd be frustrated and at your wit's end as townie, you'd better pretend to be that as a wolf. And that makes me not want to play, because I don't want to upset anybody, but I also want to try to win.

I feel like we have several players who don't enjoy deceiving or being deceived, which is completely reasonable... but how do you expect evil players to play this game? Do you really think if Dean had shrugged his shoulders and said "yeah I guess I picked bad targets, what can ya do?" that he'd still be alive? C'mon now.

You can say "you should care more about your friends than winning the game" and sure, I agree in principle, but if that means it's impossible to win as a wolf, then what are you actually suggesting in practice? The town should always win because emotional manipulation is shitty? Why even play this, then?

But these are not mutually exclusive concepts necessarily. Seeing someone doing things to others doesn't hit the same way as when they do the same to you, y'know? Particularly if you're not doing it to them, and especially if you have other external pressures.

I want to start by saying that this is nothing against TD because he's not even here saying this. I very much like and respect him as a person. And I like you plenty, too.

Your statement is complete bullshit. You cannot be fine with someone treating others a certain way then get upset when they do it to you. That's the very definition of hypocrisy. It may give you a new perspective and change your mind on a behavior, but you cannot claim offense at a behavior you previously encouraged. I mean, you can, but you'll get zero sympathy from me.

Personally, the thing that rubbed me the wrong way the most about this game was you saying we should just call the game for you because it's such a waste of time to play and you'll obviously win. You don't know what people have up their sleeve. If people feel it's hopeless, then they can resign. If they don't, or they just want you to work for the win, then put in the effort to win. If you aren't willing to, then you don't deserve to win.

And it doubly rubs me the wrong way when you say "I wouldn't have let him betray you because he'd have felt too bad about it" when you're making that request. You can't claim you don't care about winning and you should care more about other players than the win and also demand the game be called in your favor. You can't have it both ways.

With the official conclusion being that the wolves won - I disagree in generality for how we reach this conclusion, but not the conclusion

What is your objection to how it was determined? Do you not think it would've played out how Zell said?

This is what pissed me off about the Zell game where I got Serial Killer. It felt like @Ants! and I were being bullied into spilling out roles because everyone else did. I was being told to "play the game" while also being told "Tell us your role or you die tonight." It felt unfair and mean-spirited. I don't do so good at lying because it means I have to constantly cover it up with more lies and I know at some point people are going to figure out I'm full of shit, so my angle is to be vague, but they didn't like that.

People being against lying and attempting to be vague instead is the biggest sign of being evil. Of course people are going to push on that. What's the alternative, people are required to just accept your "no, I'm not evil" at face value? That wouldn't allow the game to function.

I'm shitty at lying too, so I get it. But you do realize your complaint is essentially "I was forced to lie or die in a game of deception", right?


I feel like we all need to take a step back and ask, what do you enjoy about wolf? What do you not enjoy? Do we need to set lines about what's allowed? Do we need to play something else? I absolutely do not want to hurt anybody here, but I'm also perplexed at what is considered as acceptable behavior.

 

[Dean]

I've stayed relatively out of the discourse while I gathered my thoughts and have a couple of points.

1. I don't agree with the outcome of the game that was decided. I'm not going to push it because it's just an internet game but I entered a thread not having skipped where it had already been decided that the game was stopped. The town had not conceded the game and I still should have been afforded an opportunity to convince other players to vote out TD, Dean or anyone.

I don't think you were going to survive regardless. What set TD off is that I switched off you and onto Tommy to demonstrate to Benzine, Kat, and anybody paying attention that I was not a stooge for the Cupid Lovers, and to show TD, Raine, and even Tommy that I'll do what I want. I planned on switching back to you pretty quickly, but TD quit and the whole thing went to hell. I say this with all due respect. There was no way you weren't going to be lynched if the game didn't end the way it did.

2. @VashTheStampede you're not the only person complaining, I've currently addressed my thoughts on it more directly with Dean but in summary my feelings are that while overall it was playing to a win condition and may appear to have been something that TD was along for the ride with initially I don't like it.
From my perspective I had worked out that Dean was telling lies (and I likened it to the previous time where he was a wolf and swore up and down he wasn't). But on the chance that he was going through an actual personal torment I didn't push on it because I don't want to be the cunt that causes someone personal anguishes to be laid bare and cause then more pain. I get what we are saying about a game of manipulation but there is manipulation that I would view as within the spirit of the game and that which isn't.

I get where you are coming from here. We've chatted about it. I feel bad about manipulating people I consider to be friends, people I've known off and on for 20 years. I was laser focused on winning at all costs. I crossed some moral and ethical lines. I honestly feel worse about what I did to Vash than whatever TD thinks I was trying to do to him. It is ironic that I was totally cool with TD trying to screw me over, and I was proud of myself for coming up with a way to prevent it so we could still win together. I actually expected him to go 100% to his primary win condition because he told me that is what he was going to do.

3. I think as evidenced by the amount of people who have left the games in a short period (Cole, Ryan, TD etc) for various reasons we need to all have an introspective look at what we think is in the spirit of how we want to play. If this was our actual physical in person friend groups and we had lost this amount of players as a result of the way the game is played we'd likely figure out some new rules of engagement. I think saying it's just a game works for some people and we don't get too pent up on it, but for others it's a lot more and given the level of anonymity that exists here I think at times we don't consider the impacts we can have on others because of things we say or the way we may dismiss people's statements/feelings.

Just my thoughts that I wanted to get out of my head before starting my game in earnest.

This part concerns me. I know I got frustrated after my first run as a wolf when everybody basically called us dumbshits and said how we suck and could've easily won. Then the wolves never won a single game. I don't know who is still around that remembers, but I was fucking humiliated and actually quit for several games, then finally came back and regrouped, determined that if I became wolf again, I would fucking crush it. Well, we fumbled with the Fool, and I figured that was that, because that was a loaded team. I got another golden opportunity with TD, who I work well with in a lot of ways. It just sucks how things turned out.

This is why I posted saying "I don't think we're good". I realize I disagreed with Vash's stance, but I think we can all agree that we don't want people to be hurt or leave the forum over a game. People's feelings are valid, and I do think it's important to set expectations about how these games are played so it doesn't cause hurt feelings. Maybe we need to draw lines and play it differently. Maybe some people need to step out because it's not a game suited to them. Maybe it's a combination of both. But I don't want to say "we're all adults and talked about it so we're good" when we're obviously not.

I personally didn't feel concerned about Dean's emotional state, even though I did post some comforting words and defended him. I always kept it in my mind that it was possibly a play, so I wasn't bothered when I realized it was. I feel like there's a big difference between "frustrated over a game" and "in serious mental distress". It's not like he was threatening to jump off a cliff. I was rolling my eyes at him by the end of the day a bit, it was so over the top.

But I don't suffer from mental illness. That struggle isn't personal to me. I can see why someone who does wrestle that demon on a regular basis would feel differently.

I actually understand exactly what you mean. I am glad you didn't think I was coming out too personally. I made sure to avoid saying I was going to off myself or something crazy; I just wanted to sound super hard on myself, whiny, anxious, etc. Real feelings I've had before, and add in the real stress I felt about being a wolf. I honestly think I started doing it too early and should've waited until a bit later to start sounding pissed at myself.

I'm not sure I'd avoid upsetting people while playing as a wolf, because I'm a big believer in "play it like you're a townie". If you don't, people will notice and use it against you. So if you'd be frustrated and at your wit's end as townie, you'd better pretend to be that as a wolf. And that makes me not want to play, because I don't want to upset anybody, but I also want to try to win.

I feel like we have several players who don't enjoy deceiving or being deceived, which is completely reasonable... but how do you expect evil players to play this game? Do you really think if Dean had shrugged his shoulders and said "yeah I guess I picked bad targets, what can ya do?" that he'd still be alive? C'mon now.

You can say "you should care more about your friends than winning the game" and sure, I agree in principle, but if that means it's impossible to win as a wolf, then what are you actually suggesting in practice? The town should always win because emotional manipulation is shitty? Why even play this, then?

This is part of the issue I'm having. I had to do what I did to get people to back off, to make them believe, even if I was being cheesy and over the top. I know it seems messed up to some, and in hindsight, there was too much real emotion involved. I should've stopped when Vash mentioned actual issues he has experienced. I've got a wife on antidepressants for crying out loud. Don't get me wrong; I've felt the feelings I described when I posted. It's why it was easy for me to say that stuff. Those were genuine feelings I've had, maybe not in that specific moment though. It was something to draw from.

I want to start by saying that this is nothing against TD because he's not even here saying this. I very much like and respect him as a person. And I like you plenty, too.

Your statement is complete bullshit. You cannot be fine with someone treating others a certain way then get upset when they do it to you. That's the very definition of hypocrisy. It may give you a new perspective and change your mind on a behavior, but you cannot claim offense at a behavior you previously encouraged. I mean, you can, but you'll get zero sympathy from me.

Personally, the thing that rubbed me the wrong way the most about this game was you saying we should just call the game for you because it's such a waste of time to play and you'll obviously win. You don't know what people have up their sleeve. If people feel it's hopeless, then they can resign. If they don't, or they just want you to work for the win, then put in the effort to win. If you aren't willing to, then you don't deserve to win.

And it doubly rubs me the wrong way when you say "I wouldn't have let him betray you because he'd have felt too bad about it" when you're making that request. You can't claim you don't care about winning and you should care more about other players than the win and also demand the game be called in your favor. You can't have it both ways.


What is your objection to how it was determined? Do you not think it would've played out how Zell said?


People being against lying and attempting to be vague instead is the biggest sign of being evil. Of course people are going to push on that. What's the alternative, people are required to just accept your "no, I'm not evil" at face value? That wouldn't allow the game to function.

I'm shitty at lying too, so I get it. But you do realize your complaint is essentially "I was forced to lie or die in a game of deception", right?


I feel like we all need to take a step back and ask, what do you enjoy about wolf? What do you not enjoy? Do we need to set lines about what's allowed? Do we need to play something else? I absolutely do not want to hurt anybody here, but I'm also perplexed at what is considered as acceptable behavior.

I hope we can figure this out. I don't think we can ban lying, telling the truth, coercing/bullying, or even garnering sympathy.

I'm not trying to equivocate the two, but Vash pulled the faking being silenced stuff. We've had several wolves fake being busy or lying low to avoid suspicion. It's all lying, all set up to get a sympathetic reaction from others. "Oh man, we can't lynch so and so, they don't have more time to post because they're working so much" or "We don't want to kill somebody who was just silenced, they didn't even get to play much". The sympathy for you, Kat, allowed you to live past some suspicious missteps too, like lying about your role abilities and asking people to reveal too much too early. Everybody's used that stuff to their advantage, but I also recognize I went over a line.

 

[VashTheStampede]

Lying is a completely acceptable and expected part of the game.

There is literally nobody arguing that point and to continually bring it up is just manufacturing a strawman.

If you want to utilize tactics such as emotional manipulation and bullying... if you think that's the only way you can win this game, then by all means, go right ahead.

All I'm saying, if I am saying anything, is that actions have consequences.

 

[VashTheStampede]

I think I'm allowed to vent my frustrations and say what essentially boils down to "I wish you wouldn't do that".

I don't believe I've called for rules to be implemented or the game to necessarily be changed to suit my fucked up self.

I live in this world. There's plenty of horrible shit that goes on and I bitch and moan about that too until the thread gets closed even though I can't and don't expect to change anything.

People keep saying "maybe you should remove yourself from the game" if it occasionally upsets me...

Why stop at the game?

--------

That would be a fair thing to post in a wolf game, right?

I'd have a hard time lynching someone after that.

 

[VashTheStampede]

And now I feel bad for even making that post

Actions have consequences lol

 

[Raine]

If I were to...

People's feelings are valid, and I do think it's important to set expectations about how these games are played so it doesn't cause hurt feelings.

Your statement is complete bullshit. You cannot be fine with someone treating others a certain way then get upset when they do it to you. That's the very definition of hypocrisy. It may give you a new perspective and change your mind on a behavior, but you cannot claim offense at a behavior you previously encouraged. I mean, you can, but you'll get zero sympathy from me.

...perhaps writing long posts few will read wouldn't be a barrier to entry.


When emotional manipulation is deployed, someone ends up being the outcast/heel. None of this has anything to do with the game, this is now just speculating on the nature of people's character.

Mission accomplished. Stellar wolf win.



Anyway, actual Measured Raine Post™ incoming. I just woke up and I'm still a little cranky.

 

[Fool's Requiem]

And now I feel bad for even making that post

Actions have consequences lol

 

[VashTheStampede]

I'm starting to think Dean might have been a wolf.

 

[Dean]

Eh, I keep putting my foot in my mouth with my posts, so I should probably quit while I'm behind. But you've known me long enough to know that's never been my strong suit.

I don't mean to build up a straw man that you and others just want to ban lying. There's a difference and several nuances between the ways the lies are presented, the types of lies, the level of emotional manipulation (whether through bullying, garnering pity, and using real world stuff to make people feel bad). I (speaking for myself only) use the broader term lying to encompass a bunch of stuff instead of having to type out a much longer explanation of the levels of emotional manipulation.

If somebody says, "I'm super busy at work. My boss is an asshole for making me work extra hours to meet quota for the holidays. I'm looking for a new job." and it's a lie and they are a wolf, most people will be cool with it. If I say, "My family has COVID and I'm too sick and can't respond much." and THAT is a lie, then a few people may have an issue with that, some won't care. If I say I'm "having a nervous breakdown because of the pressures of a role and that the anxiety is so much, I just want to quit playing altogether", if nobody in that game has ever felt depression or anxiety to that level, they're going to look at it like example #1 or #2. But in your case, @VashTheStampede, it hit close to home. I should've stopped when it became clearer than it was a trigger, but I already committed to the lie. Some would argue, "tough shit, pivot from the lie anyway, and figure it out or lose with dignity", and that would have been the more humane thing to do. Instead, my teammates and I briefly talked about how fucked up I was, and we plowed ahead with hopes of forgiveness later.

 

[Fool's Requiem]

I'm starting to think Dean might have been a wolf.

Me and Dean aren't Cupid'd together. I think he just has a townie Seer role, unless he's a wolf seer trying to make it known that he's a "townie".

really hoping there's just no Wolf Seer in general because that ruins everything...

I would like to point out that it still doesn't mean Dean is 100% good. Making blatant Seer plays is a good Wolf Seer play...

Dean being Wolf Seer was definitely something I was worried about from day 1.

Vash, I was suspicious of you, as well, especially after realizing that killing me in jail would have risen so many flags. Pretending to have trust in someone is a good way to gain their trust. I had been had before by that kind of play and needed to keep it in the back of my mind at all times.

 

[Raine]

I'm not sure I'd avoid upsetting people while playing as a wolf, because I'm a big believer in "play it like you're a townie". If you don't, people will notice and use it against you. So if you'd be frustrated and at your wit's end as townie, you'd better pretend to be that as a wolf. And that makes me not want to play, because I don't want to upset anybody, but I also want to try to win.

Bear in mind, also, that there are acute differences between "Confused," "Stressed" and "Distraught" - I don't know why I just capitalized and put quotes around them I'm not going to write a dissertation on this lol - and they all have relative safe zones idle comments can be made in. I would personally suggest, perhaps, those safe zones were disregarded here and that in and of itself doesn't need to lead to a hard stance. More guidelines than rules, if you will.

I feel like we have several players who don't enjoy deceiving or being deceived, which is completely reasonable... but how do you expect evil players to play this game? Do you really think if Dean had shrugged his shoulders and said "yeah I guess I picked bad targets, what can ya do?" that he'd still be alive? C'mon now.

It's not entirely fair to only frame this within the rigid confines of an in-progress game. At that point in time, yes, Dean's goose was essentially cooked - but even then the option was there to follow your plan, Ben was there to do his thing, Jon's comment to my ping was far more suspicious than I would have ever imagined (lol), etc - and none of those options lead us to... here.

But, also, the wolves chose to lynch Jawneh and establish some credibility that way. In a normal game, Dean could have offered TD's head on a platter on Day 3/4 to establish more permanent vindication. Or if Jon's aura was Evil instead of Unknown, or what have you.

Just because you've ended up backed into a corner doesn't mean that you should go certain places. Those places were touched upon. Everyone, including the person that did it, are now feeling worse as a result.

You can say "you should care more about your friends than winning the game" and sure, I agree in principle, but if that means it's impossible to win as a wolf, then what are you actually suggesting in practice? The town should always win because emotional manipulation is shitty? Why even play this, then?

You can tag him yourself if you want since unlike TD he's still here, but my understanding is this is literally why Cole doesn't play any more. That and getting killed early anyway.

I reiterate the point I made elsewhere, somewhere, on some page: The issue has never been that the wolves can't win, it's that the people don't want to. You guys really think I can't be a raging jackass? With all of the shit I've put out there these last few months? Do you honestly believe Cole and TD couldn't lie, cheat and steal their way to victory?

Being an asshole is really fucking easy, y'all.

But to do that in a small, tight-knit community? For a game with no prizes and whose only purpose is to give us something to spend time doing together in what's supposed to be a fun, joke-y manner? That's... dumb.

Instead Cole and TD have had extensive talks with Zell about how to try and change the game to better reflect the needs of the community. It hasn't really resulted in anything, and see above with Cole no longer playing. TD stopped doing the character bits for the most part and just hung around as himself for the most part, waiting to get the hammer. People like me spend more time setting up sand castles for ridiculously broken roles to knock over, than truly "playing the game" - and then occasionally point out those problems, get challenged by other members of the community (which is fair), and then giggle when the things I've pointed out cause dumb things to happen later but otherwise just drop it and move on.

If I'm not part of the equation in this game, the wolves do not win. That's not gloating, that's not underselling the amount of effort put in by TD or Dean, that's just the game itself. That's what it is. It's not a matter of whether empaths should or shouldn't play the game because the only way to win is to act shitty and regret it later (which is also funny because the empaths are amongst the better players), it's a matter of the game still not having proper balance after 11 runs and a couple of funny side games. And that's not truly a knock on or at Zell, either.

With the dangling carrot of the first wolf win now out of the picture, assuming there's enough of a population left to keep the god damn games even running, you should not reasonably expect the wolves to ever get near a win again. Outside of collective apathy, I guess.

I want to start by saying that this is nothing against TD because he's not even here saying this. I very much like and respect him as a person. And I like you plenty, too.

Your statement is complete bullshit. You cannot be fine with someone treating others a certain way then get upset when they do it to you. That's the very definition of hypocrisy. It may give you a new perspective and change your mind on a behavior, but you cannot claim offense at a behavior you previously encouraged. I mean, you can, but you'll get zero sympathy from me.

I'm not even truly sure this is applicable to the current situation, but everyone has blind spots and/or aren't necessarily proactively diligent at all times. I can honestly tell you at the time that I didn't read any of Dean's longer posts because they weren't for me, so until later I was unaware what was going on.

Is TD a hypocrite in this situation? I'unno. But that's the exact sort of situation my play style avoids leading to to begin with, so 1) that's not a question for me to answer and 2) it's not a question I'm going to give any particular consideration to.

Having read the transcript it is clear as day that this is a targeted betrayal scenario instead of a generalized emotional manipulation scenario, too. So... sort of the same, but not really, can still hit very differently. Again with the extra IRL baggage, and again with TD already feeling guilty and not wanting to betray Dean. Who, obviously, had nothing else on his mind other than stealing victory - no consideration for his teammate, no consideration for what I may or may not have known that he didn't, no consideration for whether you (Kat) were lying about your role. If the Dean Double Down struck again, and the town won as a consequence, then Dean would have egg on his face. But also everything TD, Jon and I spent time doing would have been for naught. It's selfish, it's brutish, it's completely lacking in care in every sense of that word - and I do believe Dean knows and understands that, and feels bad because of it.

And if, at that point, there is still a disconnect between myself and any reasonable percentage of our community - that makes me a little sad, but I understand. And, yes, somehow this game is no longer for me. And that's okay.

Personally, the thing that rubbed me the wrong way the most about this game was you saying we should just call the game for you because it's such a waste of time to play and you'll obviously win. You don't know what people have up their sleeve. If people feel it's hopeless, then they can resign. If they don't, or they just want you to work for the win, then put in the effort to win. If you aren't willing to, then you don't deserve to win.

I tagged the only two people that should have been relevant (Tubby and Dean) and then started getting ready for bed. I do understand that it came off the wrong way, and I apologized to TD the next morning when I woke up with the consideration that that might have soured things between him and Dean.

You do need to understand the irony here though: I made that post to try and be a good sport. The game was over, Beast Hunter is too slow to actually stop the wolves in a reactive manner. But Tubby wanted his chance, and he got it. And Dean could have tried fucking over TD, Tommy and myself, but if TD wasn't tilted/dealing with things and I wasn't trying to be considerate of you fucking people so you could start your next game before Christmas travel torpedoed it, Day 6 would look differently and any attempt by Dean to rug pull would just result in a town win.

I laid out my considerations in full in that 1400+ word post in the dead thread - oh and spoiler, as I'm writing these words this post is now looking to be nearing 1400 words long - and you can read it if you want. I understand it's a lot... but I don't think you guys understand how much time TD and I put into these games knowing full well we're going to lose, just so you guys can have fun.

So... please don't tell me I don't deserve to win, okay? With the added considerations that I don't care about winning and I was determined to push TD into going for the wolf win because, again, I actually care about him as a person. The fucking nerve, right?

...Wait that's harsh. I'm sorry. But that's genuine emotion and frustration and annoyance and [more and more words and] I'm leaving it there.

And it doubly rubs me the wrong way when you say "I wouldn't have let him betray you because he'd have felt too bad about it" when you're making that request. You can't claim you don't care about winning and you should care more about other players than the win and also demand the game be called in your favor. You can't have it both ways.

Dean and I aren't on the same team. If Dean agrees to lay down his arms (err, claws), that's not something TD has to feel bad about. Again, I very sincerely apologize for the way that post comes off.

What is your objection to how it was determined? Do you not think it would've played out how Zell said?

Correct. Again outlined in the other 1400+ word post, though luck - and only luck (and bad/dumb rules WRT Beast Hunter maybe) - did yield a higher wolf win percentage than I would have guesstimated.

 

[shortkut]

Dean could have offered TD's head on a platter on Day 3/4 to establish more permanent vindication. Or if Jon's aura was Evil instead of Unknown, or what have you.

That’s what I thought would happen. I thought Dean believed people thought him innocent, and with the sheriffs calling out TD, I assumed that would be the end of the couple. I presumed the town would then get Dean and it would be a townie victory

 

[Raine]

Also just so we're definitely on the same page yes I regret like 80% of the things I've posted since the start of Day 6.

And I shouldn't be this invested because the game got the end result that I wanted.

And I feel like I'm making things worse... maybe? I can't make things worse if you don't read my really long posts so don't read those.

But the game doesn't even matter to me anymore. I miss TD, I'm worried about him and Vash, I'm concerned Dean is taking this all very hard, I have very conflicting feelings about Benzine but I want to be clear I don't hold any animosity.

I think I'm going to log out until after the New Year. Play some games, definitely partake of some Christmas tomfoolery. Get all this stuff in the past where it belongs and go from there.


So... yeah! Happy Holidays to all of you, I'll pester you more about inane things across GWF in a couple days.

 

[shortkut]

I have very conflicting feelings about Benzine but I want to be clear I don't hold any animosity.

I don’t like speaking for other people, but my interpretation of what @Benzine was saying was that until it is made clear that real life issues are spilling over, everyone can and should, do everything they can to win the game they are playing. That’s what he was doing, right up until the game was called. If he could convince Dean to break with the Cupid collective, the town had a slight chance

 

[Benzine]

Am I expected to do prior reading on other threads?

Plus everything raine said was lies to me anyway? Ridiculous. Literally trying to make me feel bad while complaining about other people’s feelings being hurt or whatever. Fuuuuuck off.

 

[VashTheStampede]

Literally trying to make me feel bad while complaining about other people’s feelings being hurt or whatever.

It's interesting to me that this was your takeaway.

Not being sarcastic at all, honestly.

Shit even that sounds sarcastic.

I HONESTLY FIND IT INTERESTING

ok that seems to do the trick

 

[Benzine]

I get confused by your guys’ interpretations too. Culture maybe.

But I think it’s more that some people don’t bother to actually think out other peoples perspectives.

And there’s a difference between perspective within a shared space that’s actively inhabited by those people - and perspective that can be gained by things you’re not aware of.

 

[VashTheStampede]

I get confused by your guys’ interpretations too. Culture maybe.

But I think it’s more that some people don’t bother to actually think out other peoples perspectives.

And there’s a difference between perspective within a shared space that’s actively inhabited by those people - and perspective that can be gained by things you’re not aware of.

I think this post holds a lot of wisdom and everyone can take something different from it.

 

[shortkut]

I think this post holds a lot of wisdom and everyone can take something different from it.

I have taken how to use paragraphs from this post.

It seems to be an effective way of spacing out thoughts so they can be more easily read.

 

[VashTheStampede]

I have taken how to use paragraphs from this post.

It seems to be an effective way of spacing out thoughts so they can be more easily read.

I had not considered that perspective when I was trying to consider all perspectives.

 

[shortkut]

I had not considered that perspective when I was trying to consider all perspectives.

This is a safe space.

I am proud of you for admitting there was a possibility you did not consider.

May we all have the courage of our convictions to admit when there is room to embiggen ourselves

 

[TD]

Okay.

I was planning on not even thinking of coming here until the new year, but between Mark emailing me some nice comments, signing in to see some nice PMs, and now me taking a breather from inevitable Christmas family drama - I needed a break so I'm popping into here.

Full disclaimer, I've loosely skimmed this thread and have not read it all to avoid potential emotional triggers.

First and foremost. I sincerely apologize for fucking with the end of the game, it was far from over, and even more - I apologize for my "fuck most people" comment. That was out of line, I edited it to say "fuck it" but the damage may have been done, so for that I sincerely apologize.

Secondly, me storming off had nothing to do with winning or losing. Anyone who was either part of or watched the Lamb Chop game should know me enough to know I care more about what happens from start to end, rather than the outcome.

Now - what the fuck was up with TD?

I'm not going to beat the dead horse of Dean's playstyle because I saw that talked about. When he started down that road, I asked him if it was real or a play. He told me it was a play. My IN THE MOMENT response was to laugh and shrug it off because the main thing I was concerned about in that specific moment was making sure he was okay. Around this time, I stopped paying as much attention to what was going on in the day phase and I became shorter/less decisive in the wolf chat.

Fast forward to me waking up, seeing Jon lynched and seeing how far Dean pushed it - it triggered my own anxiety and depression but it was too late to do anything about it so I pushed forward being quieter for the remainder of the game than ever before.

Then on the day of the draw vote, I kept trying to tell Dean to stop killing himself over it. A tie vote is good, we control the vote, etc. He kept going. Around this time is when I started to add panic about the betrayal twist on top of how I was feeling.

I had basically the equivalent of a meltdown to both Raine and Dean. For those who don't know, in OG GW, games that had a betrayal role near the end often ended up in someone leaving the forum so good and the last thing I want to do is be the reason someone leaves. I've even altered how I play after feedback from Vash's first game to try to avoid this. I was really and I mean really struggling with the upcoming betrayal.

Then what I've been trying to avoid, happened. Vash called it his last game ever and Benzine was noticeably pissed that it was getting dragged out.

I didn't blame Dean for that. I blamed myself. Why? I had a chance to stop it. I had a chance to tell Dean to dial it back and I didn't. I get the whole thing about everyone being responsible for their own actions, but I played a part and at best I was complacent for not saying something about it.

Great. I was done, but I didn't want to give up on Dean or Raine. I open the chats, Raine is sympathetic to me and apologized for outing Dean knowing how I felt about betraying him. Open the wolf chat and there it is - Dean took care of the betrayal for me. I was high as shit, felt bad for Vash, and just wanted the game over with.

All the meanwhile, Raine is talking about throwing the game in favour of the wolves to appease my emotions. She tried to negotiate calling the game to appease my emotions. She knows me well, she knew I was struggling, and she knew I wanted it over with.

Dean starts barking orders about what to do, including lynching Tubby. I know what his plan is, lynch Tubby and then night kill Tommy. I honestly just went along with it because I wanted the game to be over with.

Fast forward to the day phase, Tommy, Raine, Dean, and I all voted for Tubby. Dean was getting his way. Then Dean flipped to Tommy and I got pissed. Mainly because I wanted the game over with. I was done with the dragging it out theatrics. He was doing one of two things, potentially handing the town the game when I already felt like garbage for feeling partially responsible for Vash quitting or was about to make a big drawn out spectacle again. Neither sat well with me. Reading the room, even Benzine was ready to skip and get it over but no, let's keep playing like there's something to play for.

IF I cared about the game at this point, one of two things would've happened:
I would've tried to get Dean lynched OR I would've message Zell to see if I could use my final Nightmare on Dean to take control over the night kill again.

But I didn't do either of those because I just wanted it to end. Yeah my emotional state didn't help. It didn't help that it was the day before leaving for the holidays but there was so much more to it than that.

If you're still reading - I'm sorry. Genuinely. Am I okay? Not really, this might be my last family Christmas but I'm trying. This was supposed to be a distraction for me but it backfired horribly but I know and understand that it's a ME issue.

I hold no ill will toward anyone in this game, not even Dean. I hope y'all can forgive me too. For what it's worth, this community does mean a lot to me, both inside and outside the wolf community.

I hope everyone has had a better Christmas than I have had, I hope you have a Happy New Year.

Jeff (TD)

 

[Jawneh]

Just remember, we're more than the amalgamation of wolf games @TD . Take care of yourself and if you feel like it, come around and shoot some shit elsewhere in the meanwhile.

 

[Tubby23]

Jeff in the shortest most succinct way:
We love you and just want you to be healthy both mentally and physically. Please look after yourself, we are always here to talk shit with whenever you feel ready for it.

 

[shortkut]

Jeff in the shortest most succinct way:
We love you and just want you to be healthy both mentally and physically. Please look after yourself, we are always here to talk shit with whenever you feel ready for it.

@TD tubby said it right. No one here has any animosity to you and we miss seeing you here, but you have to take care of yourself first.
in case you missed it, we are finally starting to do games other than wolf. More cooperative so we shouldn’t feel the need to try to manipulate anyone to win a game.

If and when you are ready, we would love to see you here again. As everyone else has said, you need to take care of yourself. If stepping away is how you do that, then we support you.

 

[Jon]

I hope y'all can forgive me too.

This is the most important thing for me to address.

You have NOTHING to be forgiven for.

Whatever you need for yourself, you take it. We'll be here when you want or need us.

 

[shortkut]

This is the most important thing for me to address.

You have NOTHING to be forgiven for.

Whatever you need for yourself, you take it. We'll be here when you want or need us.

This is what I was alluding to when I said no one has any animosity towards him. Were people frustrated and/or confused with the situation? Most likely. Have we all moved passed it, like it was just a squabble with our brother? Also most likely.

There are no lingering negative feelings or thoughts about this game or your actions. Hopefully we can soon joke about it, like how simple math stopped @VashTheStampede and @Christina from winning in the first Cupid game. I think @Jon would call it ironic

 

[Advocate for Ants! Mouth]

Simple math? Like rolling dice and adding the results. TD should come back and join the campaign?

Sounds like a plan.