Zell Wolf GWF Zell Wolf Version XI Day 6
- Thread starter Zell 17
- Start date
To post one more time:
@Dean I’d think less/worse of you for just up and leaving than staying. We’re a community/friends/family. Sometimes we all fight, but because we care about each other we try to move on from it, together.
@Dean I’d think less/worse of you for just up and leaving than staying. We’re a community/friends/family. Sometimes we all fight, but because we care about each other we try to move on from it, together.
- Did some people feel what you did was shitty? Yes,
- Are we playing another wolf game right now? Also yes.
- Did TD, the one who was most vocal about your actions leave? Yes.
- Did he come back and become excited to watch another wolf game? Also double yes.
- Should you stay and come back? Yes
@Dean we're all going to start pinging you and also ask @Mark to enabled email notifications for you for all the pings.
I can understand stepping back from wolf games like many folks have thanks to their reasons. There's no reason to skip from all of GW. kut made some lists above so I don't got to reiterate them all. If you got to take a longer break, sure. Go for it. We'll be here. Get a permanent dead thread access and enjoy cookies with Christina. We got plenty of other cool stuff in this little hole of ours.
I can understand stepping back from wolf games like many folks have thanks to their reasons. There's no reason to skip from all of GW. kut made some lists above so I don't got to reiterate them all. If you got to take a longer break, sure. Go for it. We'll be here. Get a permanent dead thread access and enjoy cookies with Christina. We got plenty of other cool stuff in this little hole of ours.
Dean, I've said my piece to you privately. You know how I feel, and I won't try to force you one way or another. I'd like you to stay, but it's not my choice. I like everyone to stay. You do what you need to for yourself because taking care of you is the most important thing. If you want to come back, we'll be here.
OP
Finally: Were people over the top in going after Dean? Absolutely.
only if he comes back
Here's what I didn't say but honestly now it just needs to be said.
As a community, you cannot have a double standard.
You cannot play a certain way and act surprised if people get hurt.
You cannot act surprised that the people who got hurt are upset that they got hurt, or that others become upset that people they consider friends got hurt.
You cannot have the same people who were out here being against "swearing on the life of a child" and then applauding a move that faked an anxiety attack.
You know why? It's dismissive. It's selfish. It's inconsiderate of the emotions of others.
While you may have taken issue with one play, another may not feel the same. When we are out here fighting about who was right and who was wrong - it dismisses everyone who has legitimate emotions or feelings on the matter. Everyone.
As someone who consistently struggles with anxiety, you can probably guess which one got me.
My point is this. Overall as a community, there is a lack of accountability for your actions and a lack of empathy for those who have feelings about actions when it comes to this game.
Game after game, there's drama, there's apologies, there's excuses, there's this and there's that. Yet everyone keeps going in the same cycle and somehow people think the issue is resolved.
There is always more perspective. There is always something more.
Some people will put up a giant billboard that they're done. Others will simply just walk away.
As a community, you cannot have a double standard.
You cannot play a certain way and act surprised if people get hurt.
You cannot act surprised that the people who got hurt are upset that they got hurt, or that others become upset that people they consider friends got hurt.
You cannot have the same people who were out here being against "swearing on the life of a child" and then applauding a move that faked an anxiety attack.
You know why? It's dismissive. It's selfish. It's inconsiderate of the emotions of others.
While you may have taken issue with one play, another may not feel the same. When we are out here fighting about who was right and who was wrong - it dismisses everyone who has legitimate emotions or feelings on the matter. Everyone.
As someone who consistently struggles with anxiety, you can probably guess which one got me.
My point is this. Overall as a community, there is a lack of accountability for your actions and a lack of empathy for those who have feelings about actions when it comes to this game.
Game after game, there's drama, there's apologies, there's excuses, there's this and there's that. Yet everyone keeps going in the same cycle and somehow people think the issue is resolved.
There is always more perspective. There is always something more.
Some people will put up a giant billboard that they're done. Others will simply just walk away.
And even so, what I said above is something that I still feel is going unaddressed and not enough attention is being put on it.
We got members walking away from Wolf, we got members walking away from GWF, there's a lot of people who just quietly stopped playing.
There are people out there who have considered this resolved. People like you are aware enough to realize, it's not.
I probably fall into this category. At least, this is where I see myself landing. I don't think that after everyone gave their feedback and hugged it out and made up that everything was fully resolved, but I think I may have inadvertently alluded to that with my previous posts. I'll be clear: I think that it is going to be a work in progress to see what fits for all of us. Nothing is magically going to be fixed and repaired overnight, and we all obviously know that. Personally, I think that staying and playing and working through things will lead to a preferable end result (eventually). I don't think leaving or abstaining from discussion produces the same results. But it is what it is, and I respect the decision of anyone to stay or go. Bottom line, I have no control over how others are perceiving what is going on, and I can only be respectful by at least trying to imagine myself in someone else's position.
That being said, I do think this is getting close to beating a dead horse. We are all emotional and it is valid, but at what point do we all agree that in order to get better, we need to move forward? Again, I'm trying to be as diligent and respectful as possible to not invalidate anyone's feelings, but MY feelings more or less think that moving on/forward from this conflict is for the best. This is not to shut people up, this is not to prevent people from sharing how they feel, and this is not to say anyone is wrong or right. Just simply my feelings on where we are currently at. People left and that is their decision. If we moved on like business as usual, then obviously we will continue to have issues. But I truly think after how this game ended, we're all looking to make these games better for everyone. Nobody is saying "let's just keep things how they are". We're all out here looking out for what could be the best way forward. To me, this is the beginning of a resolution, but not the end all-save all. There is work to be done.
I have nothing left for this thread. I care about you all, and I hope that after a few games we can really look back and see how far we have come and how much we have grown. We got this, everyone.
I can understand why Dean would want to leave, and I don't see any of the recent posts bringing him back.
I also disagree that this is "resolved". The core issue Dean brought up affecting his departure is not resolved, and furthermore seems to be being ignored. And FWIW, I don't think it has as much to do with the Wolf game itself as people are suggesting.
I'm sorry to lose Dean, and I'm sorry for Dean, but I can understand why he wouldn't want to return when he feels like he's not being heard, and when he's continually being told that he is wholly responsible for the Wolf aftermath.
The elephant in the room is that Dean is being bullied. And rather than address that issue or attempt to mediate it, this bullying is being ignored -- perhaps for fear of losing another member.
I also disagree that this is "resolved". The core issue Dean brought up affecting his departure is not resolved, and furthermore seems to be being ignored. And FWIW, I don't think it has as much to do with the Wolf game itself as people are suggesting.
I'm sorry to lose Dean, and I'm sorry for Dean, but I can understand why he wouldn't want to return when he feels like he's not being heard, and when he's continually being told that he is wholly responsible for the Wolf aftermath.
The elephant in the room is that Dean is being bullied. And rather than address that issue or attempt to mediate it, this bullying is being ignored -- perhaps for fear of losing another member.
I hate that he is made to feel like it is all his fault. He may have been straw that broke the camel’s back, but it is an asinine for others to blame him for it all, especially considering the fact he didn’t even play most games.
Hello everyone! I, um… I’m here. Lots of tags and comments and such. I kind of feel like I should probably read what’s been happening since apparently it’s still a fresh topic? However, I would like to be selfish and say that I don’t want to.
I just want to say that I’m very embarrassed, and that I would like to apologize to everyone and anyone I lashed out at. While I could list reasons, I feel that may come across more as making excuses than truly/properly explaining anything… so, I won’t. I’m just sorry. For the way things turned out, for the way things are, for adding onto the mess and causing more stress and worry and concern.
I have extensively detailed my history with anger and aggression in a past life elsewhere in GWF. That person no longer exists, that is not who I am now, that is not who I ever wish to channel or become again. There is a point where becoming too emotional - sad, hurt, frustrated - starts to bleed into a secondary angry sensation. I will invariably and immediately hit the eject button the instant I recognize that response building.
It was no singular person, no singular action, and neither the game nor playing of/result of said game that caused my self-removal. I do not want anyone to feel like they’re responsible for this part of the messy situation. I am fine; I have always been fine. And I hope all of you are doing well, too.
@Dean I do not know what all has been said since my departure, but I would like to reaffirm that your sole “offense” was the choice of play style. The framing of that style, by yourself, as trying to be a big “piece of shit” was not super great, but as a shorthand summation I understand it. Still, this feeds into issues and concerns that have plagued the community to date.
So, while I can’t say what’s been lobbed your way is… untrue, particularly when it comes to personal relationships and friendships (and their feelings and triggers therein) it is definitely 1) a convenient jumping off point that regrettably lays too much at your feet and 2) is perhaps not being expressed or phrased in the most charitable/reasonable/considerate of ways every time.
This more casual or off-the-cuff phrasing, too, is a problem that should be addressed. It is ultimately at the core of my withdrawal as well - but I don’t know that this is something that can be “fixed,” so much as worked on. It’s simply too much to ask for everyone to make measured and considered posts at all times; it’s hypocritical for me to even suggest that as I myself don’t (can’t) manage that. So… y’know. Give and take.
That being said, I would also be sad to see you leave if that’s your decision. But I would understand and respect that choice, and wish all the best for you and your family!
…But also, I do think this community has a lot to offer outside of the wolf games. Like the fact that many of us have, we’ll say insight, into some of the ordeals you’ve shared previously. So, do at least consider hanging around.
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I must be missing a bunch of posts somewhere because I have no clue what this is referencing.
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He has also had a private conversation with Crystal and I as well, in which we both reiterated that we saw things differently as non-players and hoped he’d reconsider his decision.
He was under the impression that what he was doing was fine and then it ended up not actually being. And then he was very publicly described as being a selfish player because the moves he was making were giving him better odds (at least in his mind, and in the way Zell had it played out) at his run condition as opposed to letting the couple win out, because nether of them saw a path to a wolf victory.
I can tell you that having only read the summaries here and the dead thread, reading what TD and Raine had posted came across as them not seeing any possibility of a wolf win and they they thought Dean was just making moves to make them lose. Even after Zell wrote up how it could have played out, they disagreed. Raine thought there was an avenger that wasn't there and that it would have resulted in them all losing.
Dean made moves that he regrets, and probably should. But selfish? He was playing to his win condition that he honestly had a path to get to. Just because other people didn't see it doesn't mean it wasn't there.
If people are okay with calling him selfish for playing to his win condition then I can tell you that's a big reason why there's a lot of animosity after some of these games. The other shit in there? Yeah, he has and should have apologized. But the way he was voting at the end shouldn't offend anyone. That it was a different plan than people who wanted to win and have him lose should not offend anyone.
I'm not sure if you missed people that part about being upset over how he was voting or if it's just all mixing together. But it was definitely there.
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if anything, my sabotaging the first couple win was more selfish than this because this gave Dean a chance at winning. What I did was petty, you screw with my winning then I’ll screw with yours. I still feel bad that I hurt Vash and Christina by doing it, but without the benefit of hindsight, I would do it again because I was acting in game. Had I known there were any real world feelings hurt, I wouldn’t have because it’s just a game to me
I can’t effectively quote at present, my phone skills suck.
If Dean has taken offense to my usage of the word selfish, I will gladly apologize for that. My intent was not to disparage him, merely comment on a style of play that I would categorize as “reckless” or counterintuitive to winning. In generality, not from a Cupid Couple perspective.
It’s a style of play that he does; I mean it strictly as a descriptor of that. Insofar that keeping your trap on yourself as Beast Hunter, insofar that holding the town hostage as Avenger, insofar that making unilateral decisions as part of a wolf team.
These are neutral “selfish” qualifiers. At no point should these be interpreted as “Dean is a selfish person,” and any other suggested word that people would 1) understand and 2) be more responsive to, merely tell me and I will gladly alter verbiage.
I would also take the opportunity that I tried to keep personal and game stuff in separate post. None of my issues had anything to do with “the game,” and most of them cropped up after “the game.” …I think this makes sense in my head but I don’t know if it makes sense outside of it?
If Dean has taken offense to my usage of the word selfish, I will gladly apologize for that. My intent was not to disparage him, merely comment on a style of play that I would categorize as “reckless” or counterintuitive to winning. In generality, not from a Cupid Couple perspective.
It’s a style of play that he does; I mean it strictly as a descriptor of that. Insofar that keeping your trap on yourself as Beast Hunter, insofar that holding the town hostage as Avenger, insofar that making unilateral decisions as part of a wolf team.
These are neutral “selfish” qualifiers. At no point should these be interpreted as “Dean is a selfish person,” and any other suggested word that people would 1) understand and 2) be more responsive to, merely tell me and I will gladly alter verbiage.
I would also take the opportunity that I tried to keep personal and game stuff in separate post. None of my issues had anything to do with “the game,” and most of them cropped up after “the game.” …I think this makes sense in my head but I don’t know if it makes sense outside of it?
I'm not saying one way or the other is how Dean took it, just that's what I believe it was referring to.
I personally wouldn't have described it as selfish, I also wouldn't call a beast hunter leaving the trap on themselves as selfish. Raine probably didn't mean it to come across that way. Basically this could come from a lot of things being read in ways they weren't intended.
Warning: long post, potentially too direct but I tend to be direct in nature but wish to acknowledge that everyone's feelings are legitimate as they're internally how they feel. If my post is too direct in nature and makes you feel uncomfortable please tell me and I will edit.
Given it seems to be generally agreed that not everything is resolved I have tried to develop some rules/terms of engagement for wolf games that, I think, presents a common sense but direct approach to solving the issues.
And while some of the language is fairly direct or black and white, please don't take that as me diminishing people's personal feelings I am purely trying to offer a solution to this ongoing debate which I feel has become circular, and if I'm honest about my own feelings is starting to lead to me getting frustrated that we can't solve the issue.
Rules/Terms of Engagement
1. Use of out of game emotions in manipulating the game is strictly banned. Example, I'm really frustrated that the Marksman didn't target the Shadow Wolf (good), I have been up all night stressing about this because you did that (bad, and I believe should be at the GMs discretion to remove from game for health reasons. If the game has you up all night then we need to give you a break for the protection of your own mental health, this is even if you were 100% legitimately right to be annoyed by that person's action eg: Tubby not understanding how a timeline works is frustrating but shouldn't keep you up at night)
2. Use of non-game methods of committing to your story are strictly banned. Example, I swear on my life I have a good aura, check me tonight and if I come back bad kill me tomorrow. Or I swear Benzine is a wolf so we must vote off Benzine, if I'm wrong kill me tomorrow (Good). I swear on my mother's life I'm not a wolf (bad)
3. The game is played at the players risk, if the above rules are observed and the game is still causing you personal problems we welcome you to watch the game but ask that you don't participate.
4. Attributing in-game actions that do not break the above rules as being a part of another player's IRL character can't happen. For example, lying through your teeth in game for the whole game will not be held against people (I think this we are already good with but felt potentially it needs to be reiterated, given the most recent developments)
5. GMs have the discretion to remove any, and all, players seen not to be observing the above rules.
6. Players who wish not to play, are not to be pestered to play. Whether you think they should play or not is irrelevant, they will play when and if ready. (a player quitting for the protection of their own mental health should be commended for taking a really healthy step to protect themselves)
Now I think those are fairly straight forward and common sense without being overly draconian. If we think we can't put those rules in place and still play fun games of wolf then we shouldn't be playing at all.
I have come up with this based on the following facts that I think exist and that we, in my opinion, can universally agree on:
Fact 1. We have an issue that has come up as a result of wolf games that remains unresolved.
Fact 2. That issue is not at the foot of one person and I don't think anyone has intentionally suggested that there is only one player at fault.
Fact 3. We all are very different people, who it seems at times get their wires crossed when communicating in written form and a lot of these issues may be more easily resolved in an in-person setting.
Fact 4. Those who have felt the need to stop playing, having expressed thoughts on what may need to be fixed and while others (and I probably fall into this category) can see what they're saying it's hard to full understand until you're impacted negatively.
Players who have left or needed breaks generally comes from a combination of personal emotions and game frustration creating a perfect storm inside them that makes them want/need to quit playing for a time or permanently. Their fellow players can try to control their contribution to this issue through following a set of rules as outlined above.
Fact 5. No set of rules will be perfect, nor can it be expected that any proposed rules will be able to cover every potential trigger that a player may experience. The games should be played in a way that does offer some protection, with individual players then also applying their own thoughts to whether they should play or not based on where they feel they're sitting at that point in time. For example, Vash is a good example of sitting out games where he doesn't feel he wants to play (Vash I hope this is OK to say, don't want to put words or thoughts in your mouth), this should be commended and is healthy to do. If this means we play wolf less regularly because more people take more breaks and look after themselves, I actually think that's a win. We will sustain the game long term with a healthier player base.
Given it seems to be generally agreed that not everything is resolved I have tried to develop some rules/terms of engagement for wolf games that, I think, presents a common sense but direct approach to solving the issues.
And while some of the language is fairly direct or black and white, please don't take that as me diminishing people's personal feelings I am purely trying to offer a solution to this ongoing debate which I feel has become circular, and if I'm honest about my own feelings is starting to lead to me getting frustrated that we can't solve the issue.
Rules/Terms of Engagement
1. Use of out of game emotions in manipulating the game is strictly banned. Example, I'm really frustrated that the Marksman didn't target the Shadow Wolf (good), I have been up all night stressing about this because you did that (bad, and I believe should be at the GMs discretion to remove from game for health reasons. If the game has you up all night then we need to give you a break for the protection of your own mental health, this is even if you were 100% legitimately right to be annoyed by that person's action eg: Tubby not understanding how a timeline works is frustrating but shouldn't keep you up at night)
2. Use of non-game methods of committing to your story are strictly banned. Example, I swear on my life I have a good aura, check me tonight and if I come back bad kill me tomorrow. Or I swear Benzine is a wolf so we must vote off Benzine, if I'm wrong kill me tomorrow (Good). I swear on my mother's life I'm not a wolf (bad)
3. The game is played at the players risk, if the above rules are observed and the game is still causing you personal problems we welcome you to watch the game but ask that you don't participate.
4. Attributing in-game actions that do not break the above rules as being a part of another player's IRL character can't happen. For example, lying through your teeth in game for the whole game will not be held against people (I think this we are already good with but felt potentially it needs to be reiterated, given the most recent developments)
5. GMs have the discretion to remove any, and all, players seen not to be observing the above rules.
6. Players who wish not to play, are not to be pestered to play. Whether you think they should play or not is irrelevant, they will play when and if ready. (a player quitting for the protection of their own mental health should be commended for taking a really healthy step to protect themselves)
Now I think those are fairly straight forward and common sense without being overly draconian. If we think we can't put those rules in place and still play fun games of wolf then we shouldn't be playing at all.
I have come up with this based on the following facts that I think exist and that we, in my opinion, can universally agree on:
Fact 1. We have an issue that has come up as a result of wolf games that remains unresolved.
Fact 2. That issue is not at the foot of one person and I don't think anyone has intentionally suggested that there is only one player at fault.
Fact 3. We all are very different people, who it seems at times get their wires crossed when communicating in written form and a lot of these issues may be more easily resolved in an in-person setting.
Fact 4. Those who have felt the need to stop playing, having expressed thoughts on what may need to be fixed and while others (and I probably fall into this category) can see what they're saying it's hard to full understand until you're impacted negatively.
Players who have left or needed breaks generally comes from a combination of personal emotions and game frustration creating a perfect storm inside them that makes them want/need to quit playing for a time or permanently. Their fellow players can try to control their contribution to this issue through following a set of rules as outlined above.
Fact 5. No set of rules will be perfect, nor can it be expected that any proposed rules will be able to cover every potential trigger that a player may experience. The games should be played in a way that does offer some protection, with individual players then also applying their own thoughts to whether they should play or not based on where they feel they're sitting at that point in time. For example, Vash is a good example of sitting out games where he doesn't feel he wants to play (Vash I hope this is OK to say, don't want to put words or thoughts in your mouth), this should be commended and is healthy to do. If this means we play wolf less regularly because more people take more breaks and look after themselves, I actually think that's a win. We will sustain the game long term with a healthier player base.
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This may or may not be directed at me, but I'm interpreting it as such.
If this is the conclusion that has been drawn as the catalyst, it highlights the problem. People here aren't heard. They aren't listened to.
Emotions are continually dismissed, even in a post game. Almost every post game I'm out here reminding people that the game is over so be careful what you say. Even the game I was The Fool, I had to come out and say it.
In reading the post game discussion, I perceived a minimum of six, yes, SIX people who had their emotions dismissed and then the conclusion is to carry on their merry way.
Some are still out here trying to blame, point the finger, and even regurgigate their own perspective which is counter to what that person has said.
We need to stop acting like there's a villain here. It's not Dean, it's not me, it's not Vash, Raine, or whoever else is trying to be pointed at as the villain of this game.
This is a collective community problem and if people have a problem with me still trying to talk about this, then don't discuss it with me.
But to run around pretending everything is okay and this shit isn't in shambles is not the way to go.
Tubby has the right idea - trying to come to an actual solution to avoid this ongoing problem from continuing to happen.
The end of my last message here is the important bit. I was trying to explain where the potential bullying comment came from. It's a very persistent problem here.
I agree.
But with a vague "Dean was bullied" comment out there and leaving it as a guessing game is not the way to handle this.
Because my perspective?
I was being bullied myself while multiple people dragged my name from the mud, making judgments of my character while I'm not here, speculating what happened, saying I'm shitty, a hypocrite, and all the other shit I read, and being pretty much fucking wrong about who I am. Then - I have a few of my friends here trying to be like hey maybe there's a TD side to this and it blows up into a fight.
Then I'm invited back - and even in the thread I come back to I got people STILL ripping into me like this shit was ever about the outcome of a fucking game.
There's more to this community than wolf. I'm here because of GWF but I'll never play another game again. I'm fine with that, but the fact that it crossed my mind to leave here OVERALL because of a game, the fact we've lost members, the fact that Dean is so guilt ridden and feels like everyone is attacking him so he leaves the entire board.
The fact we've had a game be the reason that so many people have felt the need to outright leave the community whether temporary or permanently is just flat out not okay.
I almost flat out left again after reading what I came back to but again, there's a lot more to this shit than "Don't play wolf".
If I have the opportunity to chime in for an issue that is completely unresolved to try to protect the emotions and feelings of the people here so we don't lose more members here I'm going to do it.
And if this conversation makes people uncomfortable, then GOOD, because this shit is broken.
But with a vague "Dean was bullied" comment out there and leaving it as a guessing game is not the way to handle this.
Because my perspective?
I was being bullied myself while multiple people dragged my name from the mud, making judgments of my character while I'm not here, speculating what happened, saying I'm shitty, a hypocrite, and all the other shit I read, and being pretty much fucking wrong about who I am. Then - I have a few of my friends here trying to be like hey maybe there's a TD side to this and it blows up into a fight.
Then I'm invited back - and even in the thread I come back to I got people STILL ripping into me like this shit was ever about the outcome of a fucking game.
There's more to this community than wolf. I'm here because of GWF but I'll never play another game again. I'm fine with that, but the fact that it crossed my mind to leave here OVERALL because of a game, the fact we've lost members, the fact that Dean is so guilt ridden and feels like everyone is attacking him so he leaves the entire board.
The fact we've had a game be the reason that so many people have felt the need to outright leave the community whether temporary or permanently is just flat out not okay.
I almost flat out left again after reading what I came back to but again, there's a lot more to this shit than "Don't play wolf".
If I have the opportunity to chime in for an issue that is completely unresolved to try to protect the emotions and feelings of the people here so we don't lose more members here I'm going to do it.
And if this conversation makes people uncomfortable, then GOOD, because this shit is broken.
Not gonna lie, that had me scouring the threads trying to pick up something I missed… until I came to the conclusion it had to have been in a private conversation, or I am REALLY dense and not seeing it on the forums. Like I told Dean directly, I didn’t interpret what was being said about him as anything other than criticism of the play style, which is what it was. The times before, it was other players. The username attached to the issue doesn’t matter when it reoccurs with different people.
To be fair, it’s the same amount of speculation with anyone else in this situation, and it stems from no clear resolution to the reoccurring problem, which can best be described as a blurry line that players have knowingly, unknowingly, intentionally, or unintentionally crossed. When you vanish, or when Dean vanishes, all that’s left is speculating about what made that decision final. You know just as well as I do that there are only so many avenues that one can go down with that kind of thinking, and it’s usually either that the person leaving is a dick, a collective blame game, or the best possible outcome… everyone saying “what can we do to make this better for everyone?”
Which is one of the points I addressed while you were gone… It sucks that y’all are at a point where this person can’t play and that person won’t play, all for the sake of preserving friendships that were damaged… over a game. A few people were concerned about staff stepping in. I don’t wanna do that, my only role should be helping the GM’s keep y’all entertained.
Agreed. It’s etiquette. You realize what bothers who, and you don’t do it. It’s pretty simple.
No one should have to penalize themselves and stay away from a community they want to be a part of because of a game. Period. Not you, not Dean, not anyone. There are some people I won’t sweat losing, like Impulsive. We don’t need that kinda bullshit here. Everyone else should feel welcome.
And you should, as should ANYONE. There isn’t a single person here that should feel like they don’t have a voice. If anyone sees anything fucked up, I hope they let it be known. If addressing the individual doesn’t work, address staff. If the issue is staff, post a public thread in the Q&S forum if it’s an admin causing the issue, or reach out to an admin if it’s a moderator causing the issue. None of us are above reproach here, and we WANT feedback. There’s a reason we put the effort into the Q&S forum that we do, we want to stay on top of the issues here.
I wanted to extra like this part of the post. The only thing that is allowed is pinging @ Cole… wait I think I fucked that up
I'm not sure what the bigger surprise was, that Tommy actually picked us or that we both actually survived so long.
I love that @Tommy Boy had me as a back up
Yeah we were pretty much expecting that at least one of us would die. It blew my mind that Tommy picked us because he thought we would pull it off and it wasn't that option that was like "funny pairing that will lose".
Then Zell would taunt us with things like Jeopardy music consistently. Or Raine would find out I was in jail and not knowing what was to come.
Endless expectation of death.
At least part of the problem is that, because things are turbulent, people are hesitant to point out specific incidents. This is counterintuitive, obviously, because then it's at best a guessing game and at worst a game of telephone. But it's understandable because, well, we largely ain't out here trying to start beef with friends or getting some parts of the community to dogpile others. Y'know?
I know many of us, myself included, have reached out to others (or been reached out to) in the past to try and smooth over potential or perceived transgressions. Which is great! But not everyone does that, and certainly not with every other player, so... it's basically permanently a work-in-progress. Which means friction is inevitable.
I mean it's inevitable anyway, like don't get it twisted here - bad days happen, mood swings are motherfuckers, the whole nine yards - but it's maybe more beneficial if the pause button is hit every now and again, things are fully laid out, and an acknowledgement or understanding happens then and there. Like we say that what happens in the games shouldn't affect perception - of the person, of one game versus the next, whatever - but that's... that's naive. It does. It has to. That's literally the game.
If Raine tells you, and shows to you, that time and again she is willing to lie about (game) stuff? Both as a means of playing the game and as a means of lowkey tutoring others on how to play... if you ignore the fact that "Raine lies about Wolf," it's tantamount to ignoring "Leopards Will Eat My Face." Right? I'm not saying you jump from "Raine lies about Wolf" to "Raine is a dirty little commie liar," but it is understandable that perceptions - positive and negative - change. There's no real getting around that, unless you either have so many equal qualities that they manage to cancel out... or are, um, err... you know. Kind of not really engaging with the game/community at all?
So the most obvious drawback to these perceptions changing, and being more reinforced over time, is that it does predictable things to the game (population). We have (always had) very clear and obvious people that simply can't play the game unless they have constant protection or are themselves the nogoodniks. "If Cole is alive past Night 1, he's a wolf" - "TD's alive on Day 3, definitely a wolf" - "Vash is #3 on the bandwagon, he's a wolf" - "canadaguy didn't die Night 0?" - "shortkut's still alive, clearly Ants is still on hiatus." Shit like that. It's... bad, in many ways. But also, it's kind of just what we enjoy? Like these are the things that ultimately define the, lore, or whatever, of the wolf community.
And this, I think, leads to two inevitable problems further along the chain.
Problem 1: Perceptions backfiring. My examples here will be Dean, and... me. Obviously me, I'm not going to drag you goobers after typing the above. But really even the one for Dean is still me - my perception of what he's experiencing. Since, uh, I am not Dean. Clearly.
Dean the Survivor: With introspection, "Survivalist" is the word I would use to describe The Wolf Player Known as Dean. Because that's more at the heart of what The Wolf Player Known as Dean does, right? He signs up because he wants to play the game, and he knows what his role is, so he wants to ensure that he survives so his team wins. Whatever it takes, The Wolf Player Known as Dean will survive. But... surviving has costs. If The Wolf Player Known as Dean considers himself to be a survivalist, but The Wolf Player Known as Raine calls him Selfish, then a dissonance occurs. The Person Named Dean pauses, thinks, wonders... does The Person Named Raine also think he's selfish? Or just The Wolf Player Known as Raine? Is he being selfish by playing the game to his win condition - surviving - and do more people than The Person Named Raine also share this patently absurd belief? Surely not, and yet...
Raine the Liar: The Wolf Player Known as Raine likes to tinker, to spin intricate webs and lay foolish traps. The Wolf Player Known as Raine does this by lying and creating games inside of games, daring other players to split focus and attack. Between games, The Person Named Raine encourages her friends to lie more in the wolf games - to make them more fun for herself, to give The Wolf Player Known as Raine more silk to spin. One day, a trespasser appears before The Person Named Raine. His name is Impulsive, and he's a vile creature. All see this plainly, for he does not hide what he is. And yet... The Person Named Raine hears words. Words from people within her community. These words are not wrong, but they are... different. Askew, perhaps? Off. "They do not understand. Can not understand." The Wolf Player Known as Raine continues on, spinning her webs, having her fun. But more trouble comes, and among the chaos... "lies." The word isn't used, but the thought rings true. "Liar." Self-doubt, anxiety, panic - hurt - these are not new words. But they have spilled, and they must be safely stowed away once more...
This is what I think. By nature of the game, or rather the nature of our community, we constantly intermingle. Shitposting, discussion of trauma, serious talk, the game and game balance and statistics - there's no real separating it. If you took the time to neatly arrange and mark everything, you'd lose a lot of what makes it "work." So even if you understand, intrinsically, that there is a "game version" and a "real version" of everyone... actually picking out which is which, in any given post or thread or scenario, is challenging. Would still be challenging with labels and color-coded messages and more space than you could shake a stick at. If you're then tasked with remembering which version of which person said which thing however many hundreds/thousands of posts ago (perhaps in entirely different games), which you may or may not have even truly seen, and appropriately cite that every time you want to post... uhh, yeah. That's not going to work.
First and foremost, we need to take care of ourselves. If something is nagging us, or tilting us, or whatever, we just have to all agree: It's fine to not post. It's fine to miss night/day actions. It's fine to "let your team down," to "not play your best," to simply say "I fucked up" and be allowed to move on. It is not okay to browbeat people having a rough go, to say they shouldn't play, to say they're stupid or suck (except Alu I guess, you're kinda undermining me here), to make them feel like they don't belong.
Second, we have to stop assuming that we're right. These games have pretty wide windows for a reason, and I'm sure the hosts are at least amenable to doing slight extensions to nip problems. What I mean is, even if you're 99.99% certain something is a wolf tactic, pause for a moment. Think if there are any possibilities that what you're seeing (or doing) might have an alternate interpretation, and then... ask anyway? Just because you think someone is trying to pull a fast one doesn't mean that they are, and in the grand scheme of things the likelihood that any given game of wolf is someone's #1 priority is astoundingly low. Yes, some lines were crossed here. Other lines have been crossed elsewhere. Most or all of them could have been mitigated if a greater attention to detail was paid to the The Person Named [INSERT] instead of The Wolf Player Known as [INSERT].
Which does bring us to...
Problem 2: Community vs Wolf - Baggage, and what it means to win. There's... no getting around this one. By means of apology in advance take this gif. There are layers of nuance to it, enjoy it as you will.
Ultimately, there are two ways to approach the wolf games. The primary way, I think, leads to the above - and especially Problem 1 - wherein for a reputation to exist, people need to know (of) you. There must then be familiar faces, meaning people enjoy one another's company to some extent that leads to them continuing to hang out and play together. Are ya... are ya doin' maffs? Are ya winnin' the maffs, son? Yeah I'm talking about a community. It's not just a word, it's a description of a group of people that actively do things together. In order for us to have a wolf community, then, we have to have a fairly wide selection of people - all with differing backgrounds, nationalities, cultures and sensitives. I mean we don't have to have a diverse group, I guess, technically, but we do. You get the idea.
So with a diverse group of people, friction is inevitable. But friction within a community that's well-maintained should not lead to a forest fire, if you will. The... bark, and the foliage, are all well moisturized. There's no old, decaying trees and other types of kindling to easily ignite and rapidly spread. When a small fire starts, it can be quickly tended to - if it can even take hold - and the larger system, possibly even the site of the spark, can be saved. Mended. Our community, then, is regretfully not healthy. Because we have had fires, and have lost people in myriad ways, and though well-meaning change has been slow and in some regards short-lived.
Part of this, of course, are the aforementioned differences in backgrounds and expectations. Another facet is that each of us live lives with stressors, with traumas, with expectations and pressures that may not be predictable. Many people on GWF are or have family who are neurodivergent, several members are openly sensitive to emotional triggers, a handful of us are transgender or gender nonconforming, many have shared stories of struggling with anxiety, depression, suicidal ideation, others have been open about family dealing with severe physical or mental illness. While baggage is a crude oversimplification, it is an accurate assessment - we're all carrying things that we may or may not be perfectly capable of handling hour to hour, and again: Phases are long. That's a lot of time for the real world to come knocking.
While it's good that we've seemingly agreed now that emotional manipulation is... a grey area at best, let us not pretend that a starkly different picture was painted just a couple of weeks ago. This is not to dredge up the buried horse, but rather to highlight that change in stance has occurred. In part because we care about one another beyond the scope of "we play wolf on nostalgic forum software sometimes." The inverse, then, is a problem that is ongoing - and far too frequent.
Because the other way of viewing it is that the wolf games are "here," and the community is "over there." To come at it from the angle that we play wolf games and, if we choose, we can interact with the community after our Wolf Player Known as [INSERT] alter ego is killed off, or between games. And that... is something I cannot get behind. At all. I refuse the very notion that these games exist as anything other than "The GWF Community is Playing Wolf," and pending exact mood my reaction may vary somewhat between confrontational to outright hostile. Because to do less would be to spit in the face of Cole, of TD, of Dean, of Vash, of the rest of the Wolf Community, of the larger GWF and GameWinners collectives. So while I'm hopeful this does not actually need to be said, when a comment like this is dropped:
To like, not say everyone needs to be constantly aware of everything all the time. The wolf games take a lot of time, there are a lot of threads in a lot of subforums, it's a lot to keep track of. But! But but but. Ignorance is not a good excuse for hurting people's feelings, especially if there's any reasonable expectation that the majority of the community knows. Like people weren't just upset that the lives of family members were sworn on, people were deeply upset that a recently-confirmed autistic child was used as a prop by her father and our friend. People weren't upset by an ill-advised momma joke, they were deeply upset that a friend's mother wasn't doing well and that was dropped at the absolute worst time. Like people weren't upset that a comment/joke regarding a married couple didn't land, they went nuclear because good friends were besmirched and personal lines were crossed. And that time a completely AWOL wolf managed to win? Well, that only mattered because the person accosted by a boulder in ball form was okay and on the mend.
Like, you guys follow what I'm saying right? These things could be bad on their own. Objectively, if you did them to complete strangers on the Wolfsville App they would be unsavory. But the fact that people here care about each other makes it worse! ...Or better. It really depends on which angle you're viewing this from, you understand. If Dean and Vash and TD weren't friends, this doesn't blow up so hard and so fast and last so long. There are genuine, decades-old feelings and relationships and memories at work and on the line here. And that's important. And it should have been more important before some things occurred, too, but - we ain't perfect. Shit's gonna get through. It is, again, inevitable. But it's how it's approached, how it's addressed, how it's resolved that matters. And the fact that so much is on the line is why it's as good as it is bad - because those do still matter. It's why, like Cole is saying, he doesn't want to keep playing. Because he can't justify risking it.
So what does winning have to do with... any of that? Everything, really. If you're playing within a community then winning doesn't matter; there will always be another game. It's only when the community shatters and no more games are played that the scorecard is final - and at that point, it doesn't mean anything.
1400 words wasn't enough, have 2400 instead.
Thanks for reading the script for my sappy straight-to-DVD Hallmark Movie and/or Ted Talk. Or TL;DR'ing it IDGAF.
I know many of us, myself included, have reached out to others (or been reached out to) in the past to try and smooth over potential or perceived transgressions. Which is great! But not everyone does that, and certainly not with every other player, so... it's basically permanently a work-in-progress. Which means friction is inevitable.
I mean it's inevitable anyway, like don't get it twisted here - bad days happen, mood swings are motherfuckers, the whole nine yards - but it's maybe more beneficial if the pause button is hit every now and again, things are fully laid out, and an acknowledgement or understanding happens then and there. Like we say that what happens in the games shouldn't affect perception - of the person, of one game versus the next, whatever - but that's... that's naive. It does. It has to. That's literally the game.
If Raine tells you, and shows to you, that time and again she is willing to lie about (game) stuff? Both as a means of playing the game and as a means of lowkey tutoring others on how to play... if you ignore the fact that "Raine lies about Wolf," it's tantamount to ignoring "Leopards Will Eat My Face." Right? I'm not saying you jump from "Raine lies about Wolf" to "Raine is a dirty little commie liar," but it is understandable that perceptions - positive and negative - change. There's no real getting around that, unless you either have so many equal qualities that they manage to cancel out... or are, um, err... you know. Kind of not really engaging with the game/community at all?
So the most obvious drawback to these perceptions changing, and being more reinforced over time, is that it does predictable things to the game (population). We have (always had) very clear and obvious people that simply can't play the game unless they have constant protection or are themselves the nogoodniks. "If Cole is alive past Night 1, he's a wolf" - "TD's alive on Day 3, definitely a wolf" - "Vash is #3 on the bandwagon, he's a wolf" - "canadaguy didn't die Night 0?" - "shortkut's still alive, clearly Ants is still on hiatus." Shit like that. It's... bad, in many ways. But also, it's kind of just what we enjoy? Like these are the things that ultimately define the, lore, or whatever, of the wolf community.
And this, I think, leads to two inevitable problems further along the chain.
Problem 1: Perceptions backfiring. My examples here will be Dean, and... me. Obviously me, I'm not going to drag you goobers after typing the above. But really even the one for Dean is still me - my perception of what he's experiencing. Since, uh, I am not Dean. Clearly.
Dean the Survivor: With introspection, "Survivalist" is the word I would use to describe The Wolf Player Known as Dean. Because that's more at the heart of what The Wolf Player Known as Dean does, right? He signs up because he wants to play the game, and he knows what his role is, so he wants to ensure that he survives so his team wins. Whatever it takes, The Wolf Player Known as Dean will survive. But... surviving has costs. If The Wolf Player Known as Dean considers himself to be a survivalist, but The Wolf Player Known as Raine calls him Selfish, then a dissonance occurs. The Person Named Dean pauses, thinks, wonders... does The Person Named Raine also think he's selfish? Or just The Wolf Player Known as Raine? Is he being selfish by playing the game to his win condition - surviving - and do more people than The Person Named Raine also share this patently absurd belief? Surely not, and yet...
Raine the Liar: The Wolf Player Known as Raine likes to tinker, to spin intricate webs and lay foolish traps. The Wolf Player Known as Raine does this by lying and creating games inside of games, daring other players to split focus and attack. Between games, The Person Named Raine encourages her friends to lie more in the wolf games - to make them more fun for herself, to give The Wolf Player Known as Raine more silk to spin. One day, a trespasser appears before The Person Named Raine. His name is Impulsive, and he's a vile creature. All see this plainly, for he does not hide what he is. And yet... The Person Named Raine hears words. Words from people within her community. These words are not wrong, but they are... different. Askew, perhaps? Off. "They do not understand. Can not understand." The Wolf Player Known as Raine continues on, spinning her webs, having her fun. But more trouble comes, and among the chaos... "lies." The word isn't used, but the thought rings true. "Liar." Self-doubt, anxiety, panic - hurt - these are not new words. But they have spilled, and they must be safely stowed away once more...
This is what I think. By nature of the game, or rather the nature of our community, we constantly intermingle. Shitposting, discussion of trauma, serious talk, the game and game balance and statistics - there's no real separating it. If you took the time to neatly arrange and mark everything, you'd lose a lot of what makes it "work." So even if you understand, intrinsically, that there is a "game version" and a "real version" of everyone... actually picking out which is which, in any given post or thread or scenario, is challenging. Would still be challenging with labels and color-coded messages and more space than you could shake a stick at. If you're then tasked with remembering which version of which person said which thing however many hundreds/thousands of posts ago (perhaps in entirely different games), which you may or may not have even truly seen, and appropriately cite that every time you want to post... uhh, yeah. That's not going to work.
First and foremost, we need to take care of ourselves. If something is nagging us, or tilting us, or whatever, we just have to all agree: It's fine to not post. It's fine to miss night/day actions. It's fine to "let your team down," to "not play your best," to simply say "I fucked up" and be allowed to move on. It is not okay to browbeat people having a rough go, to say they shouldn't play, to say they're stupid or suck (except Alu I guess, you're kinda undermining me here
), to make them feel like they don't belong.Second, we have to stop assuming that we're right. These games have pretty wide windows for a reason, and I'm sure the hosts are at least amenable to doing slight extensions to nip problems. What I mean is, even if you're 99.99% certain something is a wolf tactic, pause for a moment. Think if there are any possibilities that what you're seeing (or doing) might have an alternate interpretation, and then... ask anyway? Just because you think someone is trying to pull a fast one doesn't mean that they are, and in the grand scheme of things the likelihood that any given game of wolf is someone's #1 priority is astoundingly low. Yes, some lines were crossed here. Other lines have been crossed elsewhere. Most or all of them could have been mitigated if a greater attention to detail was paid to the The Person Named [INSERT] instead of The Wolf Player Known as [INSERT].
Which does bring us to...
Problem 2: Community vs Wolf - Baggage, and what it means to win. There's... no getting around this one. By means of apology in advance take this gif. There are layers of nuance to it, enjoy it as you will.
Ultimately, there are two ways to approach the wolf games. The primary way, I think, leads to the above - and especially Problem 1 - wherein for a reputation to exist, people need to know (of) you. There must then be familiar faces, meaning people enjoy one another's company to some extent that leads to them continuing to hang out and play together. Are ya... are ya doin' maffs? Are ya winnin' the maffs, son? Yeah I'm talking about a community. It's not just a word, it's a description of a group of people that actively do things together. In order for us to have a wolf community, then, we have to have a fairly wide selection of people - all with differing backgrounds, nationalities, cultures and sensitives. I mean we don't have to have a diverse group, I guess, technically, but we do. You get the idea.
So with a diverse group of people, friction is inevitable. But friction within a community that's well-maintained should not lead to a forest fire, if you will. The... bark, and the foliage, are all well moisturized. There's no old, decaying trees and other types of kindling to easily ignite and rapidly spread. When a small fire starts, it can be quickly tended to - if it can even take hold - and the larger system, possibly even the site of the spark, can be saved. Mended. Our community, then, is regretfully not healthy. Because we have had fires, and have lost people in myriad ways, and though well-meaning change has been slow and in some regards short-lived.
Part of this, of course, are the aforementioned differences in backgrounds and expectations. Another facet is that each of us live lives with stressors, with traumas, with expectations and pressures that may not be predictable. Many people on GWF are or have family who are neurodivergent, several members are openly sensitive to emotional triggers, a handful of us are transgender or gender nonconforming, many have shared stories of struggling with anxiety, depression, suicidal ideation, others have been open about family dealing with severe physical or mental illness. While baggage is a crude oversimplification, it is an accurate assessment - we're all carrying things that we may or may not be perfectly capable of handling hour to hour, and again: Phases are long. That's a lot of time for the real world to come knocking.
While it's good that we've seemingly agreed now that emotional manipulation is... a grey area at best, let us not pretend that a starkly different picture was painted just a couple of weeks ago. This is not to dredge up the buried horse, but rather to highlight that change in stance has occurred. In part because we care about one another beyond the scope of "we play wolf on nostalgic forum software sometimes." The inverse, then, is a problem that is ongoing - and far too frequent.
Because the other way of viewing it is that the wolf games are "here," and the community is "over there." To come at it from the angle that we play wolf games and, if we choose, we can interact with the community after our Wolf Player Known as [INSERT] alter ego is killed off, or between games. And that... is something I cannot get behind. At all. I refuse the very notion that these games exist as anything other than "The GWF Community is Playing Wolf," and pending exact mood my reaction may vary somewhat between confrontational to outright hostile. Because to do less would be to spit in the face of Cole, of TD, of Dean, of Vash, of the rest of the Wolf Community, of the larger GWF and GameWinners collectives. So while I'm hopeful this does not actually need to be said, when a comment like this is dropped:
...the answer is, like, yeah? Yes. YES! FUCKING ABSOLUTELY.
To like, not say everyone needs to be constantly aware of everything all the time. The wolf games take a lot of time, there are a lot of threads in a lot of subforums, it's a lot to keep track of. But! But but but. Ignorance is not a good excuse for hurting people's feelings, especially if there's any reasonable expectation that the majority of the community knows. Like people weren't just upset that the lives of family members were sworn on, people were deeply upset that a recently-confirmed autistic child was used as a prop by her father and our friend. People weren't upset by an ill-advised momma joke, they were deeply upset that a friend's mother wasn't doing well and that was dropped at the absolute worst time. Like people weren't upset that a comment/joke regarding a married couple didn't land, they went nuclear because good friends were besmirched and personal lines were crossed. And that time a completely AWOL wolf managed to win? Well, that only mattered because the person accosted by a boulder in ball form was okay and on the mend.
Like, you guys follow what I'm saying right? These things could be bad on their own. Objectively, if you did them to complete strangers on the Wolfsville App they would be unsavory. But the fact that people here care about each other makes it worse! ...Or better. It really depends on which angle you're viewing this from, you understand. If Dean and Vash and TD weren't friends, this doesn't blow up so hard and so fast and last so long. There are genuine, decades-old feelings and relationships and memories at work and on the line here. And that's important. And it should have been more important before some things occurred, too, but - we ain't perfect. Shit's gonna get through. It is, again, inevitable. But it's how it's approached, how it's addressed, how it's resolved that matters. And the fact that so much is on the line is why it's as good as it is bad - because those do still matter. It's why, like Cole is saying, he doesn't want to keep playing. Because he can't justify risking it.
So what does winning have to do with... any of that? Everything, really. If you're playing within a community then winning doesn't matter; there will always be another game. It's only when the community shatters and no more games are played that the scorecard is final - and at that point, it doesn't mean anything.
1400 words wasn't enough, have 2400 instead.
Thanks for reading the script for my sappy straight-to-DVD Hallmark Movie and/or Ted Talk. Or TL;DR'ing it IDGAF.
That’s way too many words and I’m not reading itAt least part of the problem is that, because things are turbulent, people are hesitant to point out specific incidents. This is counterintuitive, obviously, because then it's at best a guessing game and at worst a game of telephone. But it's understandable because, well, we largely ain't out here trying to start beef with friends or getting some parts of the community to dogpile others. Y'know?
I know many of us, myself included, have reached out to others (or been reached out to) in the past to try and smooth over potential or perceived transgressions. Which is great! But not everyone does that, and certainly not with every other player, so... it's basically permanently a work-in-progress. Which means friction is inevitable.
I mean it's inevitable anyway, like don't get it twisted here - bad days happen, mood swings are motherfuckers, the whole nine yards - but it's maybe more beneficial if the pause button is hit every now and again, things are fully laid out, and an acknowledgement or understanding happens then and there. Like we say that what happens in the games shouldn't affect perception - of the person, of one game versus the next, whatever - but that's... that's naive. It does. It has to. That's literally the game.
If Raine tells you, and shows to you, that time and again she is willing to lie about (game) stuff? Both as a means of playing the game and as a means of lowkey tutoring others on how to play... if you ignore the fact that "Raine lies about Wolf," it's tantamount to ignoring "Leopards Will Eat My Face." Right? I'm not saying you jump from "Raine lies about Wolf" to "Raine is a dirty little commie liar," but it is understandable that perceptions - positive and negative - change. There's no real getting around that, unless you either have so many equal qualities that they manage to cancel out... or are, um, err... you know. Kind of not really engaging with the game/community at all?
So the most obvious drawback to these perceptions changing, and being more reinforced over time, is that it does predictable things to the game (population). We have (always had) very clear and obvious people that simply can't play the game unless they have constant protection or are themselves the nogoodniks. "If Cole is alive past Night 1, he's a wolf" - "TD's alive on Day 3, definitely a wolf" - "Vash is #3 on the bandwagon, he's a wolf" - "canadaguy didn't die Night 0?" - "shortkut's still alive, clearly Ants is still on hiatus." Shit like that. It's... bad, in many ways. But also, it's kind of just what we enjoy? Like these are the things that ultimately define the, lore, or whatever, of the wolf community.
And this, I think, leads to two inevitable problems further along the chain.
Problem 1: Perceptions backfiring. My examples here will be Dean, and... me. Obviously me, I'm not going to drag you goobers after typing the above. But really even the one for Dean is still me - my perception of what he's experiencing. Since, uh, I am not Dean. Clearly.
Dean the Survivor: With introspection, "Survivalist" is the word I would use to describe The Wolf Player Known as Dean. Because that's more at the heart of what The Wolf Player Known as Dean does, right? He signs up because he wants to play the game, and he knows what his role is, so he wants to ensure that he survives so his team wins. Whatever it takes, The Wolf Player Known as Dean will survive. But... surviving has costs. If The Wolf Player Known as Dean considers himself to be a survivalist, but The Wolf Player Known as Raine calls him Selfish, then a dissonance occurs. The Person Named Dean pauses, thinks, wonders... does The Person Named Raine also think he's selfish? Or just The Wolf Player Known as Raine? Is he being selfish by playing the game to his win condition - surviving - and do more people than The Person Named Raine also share this patently absurd belief? Surely not, and yet...
Raine the Liar: The Wolf Player Known as Raine likes to tinker, to spin intricate webs and lay foolish traps. The Wolf Player Known as Raine does this by lying and creating games inside of games, daring other players to split focus and attack. Between games, The Person Named Raine encourages her friends to lie more in the wolf games - to make them more fun for herself, to give The Wolf Player Known as Raine more silk to spin. One day, a trespasser appears before The Person Named Raine. His name is Impulsive, and he's a vile creature. All see this plainly, for he does not hide what he is. And yet... The Person Named Raine hears words. Words from people within her community. These words are not wrong, but they are... different. Askew, perhaps? Off. "They do not understand. Can not understand." The Wolf Player Known as Raine continues on, spinning her webs, having her fun. But more trouble comes, and among the chaos... "lies." The word isn't used, but the thought rings true. "Liar." Self-doubt, anxiety, panic - hurt - these are not new words. But they have spilled, and they must be safely stowed away once more...
This is what I think. By nature of the game, or rather the nature of our community, we constantly intermingle. Shitposting, discussion of trauma, serious talk, the game and game balance and statistics - there's no real separating it. If you took the time to neatly arrange and mark everything, you'd lose a lot of what makes it "work." So even if you understand, intrinsically, that there is a "game version" and a "real version" of everyone... actually picking out which is which, in any given post or thread or scenario, is challenging. Would still be challenging with labels and color-coded messages and more space than you could shake a stick at. If you're then tasked with remembering which version of which person said which thing however many hundreds/thousands of posts ago (perhaps in entirely different games), which you may or may not have even truly seen, and appropriately cite that every time you want to post... uhh, yeah. That's not going to work.
First and foremost, we need to take care of ourselves. If something is nagging us, or tilting us, or whatever, we just have to all agree: It's fine to not post. It's fine to miss night/day actions. It's fine to "let your team down," to "not play your best," to simply say "I fucked up" and be allowed to move on. It is not okay to browbeat people having a rough go, to say they shouldn't play, to say they're stupid or suck (except Alu I guess, you're kinda undermining me here
Second, we have to stop assuming that we're right. These games have pretty wide windows for a reason, and I'm sure the hosts are at least amenable to doing slight extensions to nip problems. What I mean is, even if you're 99.99% certain something is a wolf tactic, pause for a moment. Think if there are any possibilities that what you're seeing (or doing) might have an alternate interpretation, and then... ask anyway? Just because you think someone is trying to pull a fast one doesn't mean that they are, and in the grand scheme of things the likelihood that any given game of wolf is someone's #1 priority is astoundingly low. Yes, some lines were crossed here. Other lines have been crossed elsewhere. Most or all of them could have been mitigated if a greater attention to detail was paid to the The Person Named [INSERT] instead of The Wolf Player Known as [INSERT].
Which does bring us to...
Problem 2: Community vs Wolf - Baggage, and what it means to win. There's... no getting around this one. By means of apology in advance take this gif. There are layers of nuance to it, enjoy it as you will.
Ultimately, there are two ways to approach the wolf games. The primary way, I think, leads to the above - and especially Problem 1 - wherein for a reputation to exist, people need to know (of) you. There must then be familiar faces, meaning people enjoy one another's company to some extent that leads to them continuing to hang out and play together. Are ya... are ya doin' maffs? Are ya winnin' the maffs, son? Yeah I'm talking about a community. It's not just a word, it's a description of a group of people that actively do things together. In order for us to have a wolf community, then, we have to have a fairly wide selection of people - all with differing backgrounds, nationalities, cultures and sensitives. I mean we don't have to have a diverse group, I guess, technically, but we do. You get the idea.
So with a diverse group of people, friction is inevitable. But friction within a community that's well-maintained should not lead to a forest fire, if you will. The... bark, and the foliage, are all well moisturized. There's no old, decaying trees and other types of kindling to easily ignite and rapidly spread. When a small fire starts, it can be quickly tended to - if it can even take hold - and the larger system, possibly even the site of the spark, can be saved. Mended. Our community, then, is regretfully not healthy. Because we have had fires, and have lost people in myriad ways, and though well-meaning change has been slow and in some regards short-lived.
Part of this, of course, are the aforementioned differences in backgrounds and expectations. Another facet is that each of us live lives with stressors, with traumas, with expectations and pressures that may not be predictable. Many people on GWF are or have family who are neurodivergent, several members are openly sensitive to emotional triggers, a handful of us are transgender or gender nonconforming, many have shared stories of struggling with anxiety, depression, suicidal ideation, others have been open about family dealing with severe physical or mental illness. While baggage is a crude oversimplification, it is an accurate assessment - we're all carrying things that we may or may not be perfectly capable of handling hour to hour, and again: Phases are long. That's a lot of time for the real world to come knocking.
While it's good that we've seemingly agreed now that emotional manipulation is... a grey area at best, let us not pretend that a starkly different picture was painted just a couple of weeks ago. This is not to dredge up the buried horse, but rather to highlight that change in stance has occurred. In part because we care about one another beyond the scope of "we play wolf on nostalgic forum software sometimes." The inverse, then, is a problem that is ongoing - and far too frequent.
Because the other way of viewing it is that the wolf games are "here," and the community is "over there." To come at it from the angle that we play wolf games and, if we choose, we can interact with the community after our Wolf Player Known as [INSERT] alter ego is killed off, or between games. And that... is something I cannot get behind. At all. I refuse the very notion that these games exist as anything other than "The GWF Community is Playing Wolf," and pending exact mood my reaction may vary somewhat between confrontational to outright hostile. Because to do less would be to spit in the face of Cole, of TD, of Dean, of Vash, of the rest of the Wolf Community, of the larger GWF and GameWinners collectives. So while I'm hopeful this does not actually need to be said, when a comment like this is dropped:
...the answer is, like, yeah? Yes. YES! FUCKING ABSOLUTELY.
To like, not say everyone needs to be constantly aware of everything all the time. The wolf games take a lot of time, there are a lot of threads in a lot of subforums, it's a lot to keep track of. But! But but but. Ignorance is not a good excuse for hurting people's feelings, especially if there's any reasonable expectation that the majority of the community knows. Like people weren't just upset that the lives of family members were sworn on, people were deeply upset that a recently-confirmed autistic child was used as a prop by her father and our friend. People weren't upset by an ill-advised momma joke, they were deeply upset that a friend's mother wasn't doing well and that was dropped at the absolute worst time. Like people weren't upset that a comment/joke regarding a married couple didn't land, they went nuclear because good friends were besmirched and personal lines were crossed. And that time a completely AWOL wolf managed to win? Well, that only mattered because the person accosted by a boulder in ball form was okay and on the mend.
Like, you guys follow what I'm saying right? These things could be bad on their own. Objectively, if you did them to complete strangers on the Wolfsville App they would be unsavory. But the fact that people here care about each other makes it worse! ...Or better. It really depends on which angle you're viewing this from, you understand. If Dean and Vash and TD weren't friends, this doesn't blow up so hard and so fast and last so long. There are genuine, decades-old feelings and relationships and memories at work and on the line here. And that's important. And it should have been more important before some things occurred, too, but - we ain't perfect. Shit's gonna get through. It is, again, inevitable. But it's how it's approached, how it's addressed, how it's resolved that matters. And the fact that so much is on the line is why it's as good as it is bad - because those do still matter. It's why, like Cole is saying, he doesn't want to keep playing. Because he can't justify risking it.
So what does winning have to do with... any of that? Everything, really. If you're playing within a community then winning doesn't matter; there will always be another game. It's only when the community shatters and no more games are played that the scorecard is final - and at that point, it doesn't mean anything.
1400 words wasn't enough, have 2400 instead.
Thanks for reading the script for my sappy straight-to-DVD Hallmark Movie and/or Ted Talk. Or TL;DR'ing it IDGAF.
How about, like @Mark said, we just try not to upset other people. @TD and @VashTheStampede have talked about their triggers, so let’s not do that. Trying to to nail down the exact reason something happened is virtually impossible, so having a specific fix is not going to happen.
We are all [technically] adults, so we should all be able to realize that sometimes shit happens and there could be no malicious intent. When that happens, we should all be mature enough to be able to move forward without a fix in place and trust our friends enough to not deliberately bring up our triggers in a way that is designed to hurt us.
I thought you just didn't read wolf posts?! It's spreading!
Mmhm. Like I said in the smaller post (that you also didn't read, I know I knowshortkut said:
... ), it's not something you fix - it's something you work on.I'm too much of a dumdum to speak in proper kut-er-ese, but a holistic approach would be my suggestion. Playing whack-a-mole with each individual trigger is a fool's errand; changing how we approach one another and how we manage conflict is more practical.
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Kut has now read the post through the paper of osmosis based on reading your post.
Ultimately, what it boils down to is none of us want to have to come into a wolf thread and shut it down because people are going back and forth. It’s one thing for a CE thread to get locked discussing a sensitive topic, it’s another for a GAME to get to a point that a staff member has to intervene for the sake of stopping an all-out shit show. On the same token, none of us want to come to a place intended to be a respite from the rest of the world and deal with the same bullshit you’d deal with at your job, your family reunion, or your high school reunion. This whole thing could be completely avoided in the simplest of manners.
If I offend you or hurt your feelings, address me about it. If I don’t give a fuck, then I’m a dick and should be dealt with. If I give a fuck and make an effort to not trip those triggers again, don’t hold it against me if I don’t get it right 100% of the time. The effort is more important than the success rate. So long as everyone is TRYING not to fuck people up, whether it’s emotionally, mentally, or whatever, we’ll be in a much better place. Accountability is going to go a long way resolving this, because it isn’t any one individual’s fault that this happened. As @Raine pointed out in a million words… there are far too many moving parts to achieve any semblance of perfection.