Zell Wolf GWF Zell Wolf Version XI Day 6

[shortkut]

Alternatively, just make me Cupid every game and see if people can guess who I couple

 

[shortkut]

Alternatively, just make me Cupid every game and see if people can guess who I couple

 

[VashTheStampede]

Alternatively, just make me Cupid every game and see if people can guess who I couple

Looks like you coupled your post this time

 

[shortkut]

Looks like you coupled your post this time

And you just won this round!

 

[Zell 17]

Better late than never:

1​	shortkut	RRV	Sheriff
2​	Fool's Requiem	RRV	Bell Ringer
3​	TD	RWW	Nightmare Wolf
4​	canadaguy	RSV	Ritualist
5​	Benzine	RRV	Seer Apprentice
6​	Raine	RSV	Detective
7​	Ben	RRV	Judge
8​	Jon	RWW	Alpha Wolf
9​	Kat	RRV	Loudmouth
10​	Tubby23	RRV	Beast Hunter
11​	Tommy Boy	RV	Cupid
12​	Smacktard	RSV	Warden
13​	Jawneh	RWW	Blind Wolf
14​	VashTheStampede	RRV	Seer Apprentice
15​	GwJumpman	RK	Corruptor
16​	Dean	RWW	Wolf Seer

 

[Zell 17]

Night 1	Role	Action	Result
shortkut	Sheriff	Watch Tommy Boy	No info
Fool's Requiem	Bell Ringer	Bells on shortkut and Dean
TD	Nightmare Wolf	Kill Ben
canadaguy	Ritualist	No spell
Benzine	Seer Apprentice	None
Raine	Detective	Check canadaguy and Benzine	Same team
Ben	Judge	None
Jon	Alpha Wolf	Kill canadaguy
Kat	Loudmouth	Reveal Dean
Tubby23	Beast Hunter	Trap Benzine
Tommy Boy	Cupid	Couple Raine/TD Backup: Jon/Tubby23
Smacktard	Warden	None
Jawneh	Blind Wolf	Check canadaguy and Ben	Strong Villager/Regular Villager
VashTheStampede	Seer Apprentice	None
GwJumpman	Corruptor
Dean	Wolf Seer	Check Fool's Requiem	Bell Ringer
Wolves	Wolves	Kill canadaguy	canadaguy dead
Day 1	Role	Action	Result
TD	Nightmare Wolf
Ben	Judge	None
Kat	Loudmouth	Reveal shortkut
Smacktard	Warden	Jail VashTheStampede and Fool's Requiem
Night 2	Role	Action	Result
shortkut	Sheriff	Watch Dean
Fool's Requiem	Bell Ringer	Jailed
TD	Nightmare Wolf	Kill Ben
Benzine	Seer Apprentice	None
Raine	Detective	Check Smacktard and VashTheStampede	Same team
Ben	Judge	None
Jon	Alpha Wolf	Kill GwJumpman
Kat	Loudmouth
Tubby23	Beast Hunter	Trap active on Benzine
Tommy Boy	Cupid	None
Smacktard	Warden	Give weapon to Vash
VashTheStampede	Seer Apprentice	Jailed
GwJumpman	Corruptor	Corrupt Tubby23	Tubby23 corrupted
Dean	Wolf Seer	Check shortkut	Sheriff
Wolves	Wolves	Kill GwJumpman	Cannot be killed
Day 2	Role	Action	Result
TD	Nightmare Wolf
Ben	Judge	Judge VashTheStampede
Kat	Loudmouth
Smacktard	Warden	Jail shortkut and TD
Night 3	Role	Action	Result
shortkut	Sheriff	Jailed	Dead
Fool's Requiem	Bell Ringer	Bells on Tommy Boy and Dean
TD	Nightmare Wolf	Jailed, use weapon on shortkut, Kill Smacktard
Benzine	Seer Apprentice	None	Convert to Sheriff
Raine	Detective	Check Benzine and Kat	Same team
Ben	Judge	None
Jon	Alpha Wolf	Kill Smacktard
Kat	Loudmouth
Tubby23	Beast Hunter	Trap Tubby23
Tommy Boy	Cupid	None
Smacktard	Warden	Give weapon to TD
VashTheStampede	Seer Apprentice	None	Convert to Sheriff
Dean	Wolf Seer	Check Smacktard	Warden
Wolves	Wolves	Kill Smacktard	Smacktard dead
Day 3	Role	Action	Result
TD	Nightmare Wolf
Ben	Judge	Judge VashTheStampede
Kat	Loudmouth	Reveal Dean
Night 4	Role	Action	Result
Fool's Requiem	Bell Ringer	Bells on TD and Dean
TD	Nightmare Wolf	Kill Ben
Benzine	Sheriff	Watch Ben	See Tommy Boy and TD
Raine	Detective	Check Jon and Dean	Same team
Ben	Judge
Jon	Alpha Wolf	Kill Ben
Kat	Loudmouth
Tubby23	Beast Hunter	None
Tommy Boy	Cupid	None
VashTheStampede	Sheriff	Watch Ben	See Benzine and TD
Dean	Wolf Seer	Check Tubby23	Beast Hunter
Wolves	Wolves	Kill Ben	Ben dead
Day 4	Role	Action	Result
TD	Nightmare Wolf	Nightmare VashTheStampede
Kat	Loudmouth	Reveal Dean
Night 5	Role	Action	Result
Fool's Requiem	Bell Ringer	None
TD	Nightmare Wolf	Kill Fool's Requiem
Benzine	Sheriff	Watch Tommy Boy
Raine	Detective	None
Kat	Loudmouth	None
Tubby23	Beast Hunter	None
Tommy Boy	Cupid	None
VashTheStampede	Sheriff	Nightmared
Dean	Wolf Seer	Check VashTheStampede, resign, Kill Fool's Requiem	Sheriff
Wolves	Wolves	Kill Fool's Requiem	Fool's Requiem dead
Day 5	Role	Action	Result
TD	Nightmare Wolf
Kat	Loudmouth
Night 6	Role	Action	Result
TD	Nightmare Wolf	Kill Kat
Benzine	Sheriff	Watch VashTheStampede
Raine	Detective	None
Kat	Loudmouth	None
Tubby23	Beast Hunter	None
Tommy Boy	Cupid	None
VashTheStampede	Sheriff	Watch Benzine
Dean	Wolf Seer	Kill VashTheStampede
Wolves	Wolves	Kill VashTheStampede	VashTheStampede dead

 

[Zell 17]

However, I think more tweaks are needed. For example, Instigator can only win with the Instigator team, why is this not the case for Cupid team? I think part of the issue with Cupid is you're outright giving people two win conditions to choose from so there's inherent betrayal that may leave feelings of resentment and add to this kingmaker approach. There should've been a downside to me telling Dean & Jon I was Cupid'd, but there really wasn't, it gave the wolves hope, and it gave the Cupids hope.

Another possible idea is that if Cupid is killed, the couple is disbanded and can no longer win as a couple but this might be too aggressive.

Thoughts?

People would be pissed at Cupid if they got coupled and it gave them a much harder win condition. Right now it's basically a bonus chance at a win.

 

[shortkut]

People would be pissed at Cupid if they got coupled and it gave them a much harder win condition. Right now it's basically a bonus chance at a win.

If you remove the secondary chance to win, you can add Cupid to the group chat so it becomes a block of 3, which is a benefit, but removes their safety of an alternate win condition

 

[Jawneh]

If you remove the secondary chance to win, you can add Cupid to the group chat so it becomes a block of 3, which is a benefit, but removes their safety of an alternate win condition

I had mentioned this as one of the possibilities. Instigator gets a threesome. Why not cupid tw-... three?

Considering the Fool doesn't win with the town, the Cupid just shouldn't either. Add the threesome and it should be a tad more balanced. The couple could always win via either cupid or their original team. Otherwise it's just instigator #2.

 

[Zell 17]

If you remove the secondary chance to win, you can add Cupid to the group chat so it becomes a block of 3, which is a benefit, but removes their safety of an alternate win condition

Basically no different from the Instigator at that point.

Cupid plays out different from the Instigator because both cupid lovers try to hedge their bets to make sure their side still has a way to win if the coupling goes south. Also, neither the town nor wolves have any idea of the coupling: Could be wolves, could be villagers, could be a combo. And some couplings are impossible if the only objective is to win as a couple (see: Wolf coupled with wolf)

 

[shortkut]

I know sometimes I don't shut up and I was just thinking about Wolf randomly.

Why do I like these forum games so much. Why Subject myself to wolf over and over?

For me, it's reminiscent of my golden days of gaming. Sitting in a basement with three friends, while the four of us play Mario Kart, Goldeneye. Perfect Dark, whatever.

I miss the days of couch co op and social gaming. Period.

Early on into my time with these games I blurred the lines between social game and being offensive. It ended with my "clueless fuck" rant in Vash's game, that was the last time.

The character bits ended for me, like Raine said. I played as myself in these games after that for the most part.

The problem with playing as yourself? When you're an empath and chronic overthinker, it's a strange game to play.

I find myself walking on eggshells with those around me to try to not offend anyone. I end up being very mindful of what everyone says and does to a fault. At the end of the day, probably around the time of the Lamb Chop game, I stopped caring about winning or losing and wanted everyone to have fun. It doesn't mean fun in my way.

You can ask both Dean & Jon how many times I checked to make sure they were having fun.

You can ask Raine how many times I said I was having fun being paired with her.

Hell, even Benzine. He called me out saying what's fun but the ironic part was that I wasn't making that statement for me. I know that Benzine would rather end a game that's been decided and move to the next. That's what is fun for him.

My point is - the main thing I care about in these games is that people have fun, whether that means I play or sit on the sidelines, I don't know.

I agree with what Zell said in that there's got to be a way for us to make this fun for everyone all of the time, not just most of the time.

I always have fun since I stopped reading as much

 

[shortkut]

Dean's options are joining the town to lynch me or Cupid, both of those MIGHT lead to a town win from the guy preaching to play to his win condition

He needed to out you as a wolf and vote you off to try to win as a wolf. Then he had some credibility and the couple is gone

 

[shortkut]

Except the moment he voted with the Cupid trio to force a draw, he proved he was a wolf.

If he lynches me, the only way for the wolf win is for Dean and someone else to be the final two.

So let's say me and Raine are gone.
That leaves Dean, Tommy, Benzine, Tubby, and Kat.

If Dean is successful in his night kill, he's still out numbered 3 to 1 the next day and the town wins.

That’s why he should have done it to start the day

 

[Jawneh]

I got sacc'd for the better of all of wolfkind.

 

[A Punched Face]

Oh and hot take: if the wolves do get credited with the win, Jawneh was the MVP.

I maintain that I was the MVP for not playing this game.

 

[Jon]

He still could have lynched Tubby, then he controlled the wolf vote and killed Tommy, which takes your advantage away. Then if he votes to lynch you with the town it kills you and Raine. Then one more wolf kill at night and he won.

He had a path to victory. So did you. Town needed quite a bit to roll their way and a misplay altogether.

I'm going by memory here. Far too lazy to look up the scenarios again and I don't care to reopen the wound. There was a layout I did in the dead thread that sort of showed Dean's path forward, but he did control the outcome as far as I remembered.

 

[Jawneh]

It may sound like a joke but I actually mean it, but again, benefit of knowing behind the scenes.

Jawneh and I both agreed on playing the long game and it was best to let a wolf die if it was going to happen. It was pretty clear the town was struggling after bumbling into a Day 1 wolf lynch that the wolves helped happen.

MVP Analysis:

Jawneh: After I voted for him, he encouraged other wolves to vote for him too to get cred. As you saw, the play worked wonders.

Jon: Was quiet and busy, didn't get to play a whole lot so not much to say.

Dean: He was my leading MVP candidate until he moved the town off of Kat and onto Jon. It was not a move that was good for the wolf team, it was good for him. Jon wasn't really under fire and as a wolf team, it would have been better for Kat to be lynched and for Dean to be revealed which would have made people question the people he cleared too.

TD: I'll never vote myself for MVP. I was mostly behind the scenes stuff anyhow, plus I quit so there's that.

I appreciate the sentiment. Though acquiescing to being lynched day 1 and making the best out of it is hardly MVP worthy IMO (but of course on brand). Maybe if this was day 3+ I'd consider it a bigger pp moment.

For me it's between TD and Dean. Possibly TD since he had to balance both wolf and cupid nonsense and not to have either or both crumble while doing it. And then the D3 happened. By his own rights, Dean did run a good wolf game through start to nearly the end. It's hard for me to say how convincing it actually was as I was thinking through most of the days as Dean was rambling on that if I was on the town team I'd think he's a wolf. But I already knew that, so maybe I'm too biased in that sense. Or maybe my sus meter is dialed well for Dean now.

Considering how the game ended, I'd consider the MVP from both wolf AND cupid teams. Town honestly didn't do too well at all this time around so they don't get a say even if there was a chance for a town win still. And consider TD did the things on cupid team and wolf team, he'd get points from working both sides.

 

[Jawneh]

Wolves just love edging that's all.

 

[VashTheStampede]

Every single game its "the town didn't really play well this time" outside of one or two outlier plays.

The town is barely an entity and one that has less knowledge than any of the other 3 factions at play.

I really dislike the "town didn't play well this time" narrative that pops up every game. It's fake analysis.

 

[Jon]

Every single game its "the town didn't really play well this time" outside of one or two outlier plays.

The town is barely an entity and one that has less knowledge than any of the other 3 factions at play.

I really dislike the "town didn't play well this time" narrative that pops up every game. It's fake analysis.

 

[VashTheStampede]

I take the jail kill as a wolf, personally.

The jailerwarden possibly outs themselves the next day pushing for a lynch and you get a kill role off the board.

Obviously that wasn't an issue this time around.

 

[Zell 17]

More high ramblings because I need to get this off my chest in case I ever decide to play another game of Wolf:

In another timelime where TD takes a ten minute breather instead:

- Dean made the play one night too early
- Dean has gone after Tubby
- The Cupids pretend to vote Tubby
- People say their piece and the Cupids switch to Dean for lynch (note: my final lynch vote was on Dean when I left)
- Dean's options are joining the town to lynch me or Cupid, both of those MIGHT lead to a town win from the guy preaching to play to his win condition
- Anyone else Dean goes after is going to be a tie vote at best, but the person he votes for likely votes him (Tubby)
- Dean gets lynched
- I control the wolf kill and kill Kat (maybe Benzine)
- Cupids are up 3:2
- We lynch Benzine finally to appease our Cupid
- No wolf night kill
- We lynch Tubby
- Cupids win

So, I'm also going to apologize to Tommy and Raine. You two played a hell of a game and I took the win away at the end.

One of the hard things for everyone to judge is the work that goes on behind the scenes and what people are doing.

While I don't agree with the "winner" of the game, Zell worked with what info he had from who was available, and made a decision.

Now I've noticed he's starting up another game, changed some roles, but hasn't added this to the record book.

So it should be added to the record book if the game is going to have counted and if not, that's fine too.

Agreed this plausibly could have happened. Not to be overly harsh, but because you and Raine left I couldn't give you guys the benefit of the doubt unless those remaining said they would have helped you.

It'll get added. I was just going to wait until things had died down a bit.

 

[Dean]

I have been very sporadically getting notifications from being tagged, and I see my name mentioned a bunch (both tagged and untagged), which is whatever, can't do anything about that and it isn't going to bother me. By the time I see it, the threads are closed or there are several pages of conversation. I finally got caught up on pretty much all of it, from Cole, TD, Zell, Jon, Tubby, Tommy, etc. etc.

I've seen a lot of opinions, and I've got my own as well. Everybody has their own version of what happened, who was wronged, who should be mad or should not be mad. I've seen a lot of "revisionist history" and claims of it. Some people tried to discredit the wolf win.

If anybody cares, as Cole said, I'm done with GWF for a multitude of reasons:
1. I regret my actions in the wolf game and realized too late that it wasn't worth winning if I'm manipulating real emotions and taking things too far.
2. I have lost at least a couple of friendships. I've had someone imply our friendship never meant anything, somebody I've known for 20 years and was happy to reconnect with, only for things to now be ruined.
3. My name keeps getting brought up negatively, either that I was a prick, a bully, an asshole, toxic, an idiot, or all of the above. I don't need that kind of negativity; nobody does.

The biggest thing to me is, I don't enjoy coming here anymore. I checked back in to see what the notifications were about and see what the general consensus was, after a week or two, and things aren't any better. People are still fighting, and there is one member in particular who is still dragging my name through mud at every opportunity.

I realize I took things too far, and I am very sorry. I have personally and publicly apologized to Vash and others. However, I'm still being trolled and insulted by one member in particular whose friendship I've apparently never truly had, which I don't believe.

I don't get how someone can act like they were upset and left because of anxiety and things getting too personal/mean and definitely not because they rage quit when they didn't get to win the way they wanted, but then they return and continue to bash me and mention me and criticize my playing style and personally attack my ethics and intelligence.

I'm over the whole thing. I need to figure out some way to unregister or whatever.

I'm sorry, again, to the people who I've hurt. I'm sorry to the people who think I hurt them, even if I don't agree with you. I'm actually sorry I even returned here. It isn't just about wolf, it's about being insulted and losing friendships. I will choose to remember people from the original GW and just lose touch with most of you, rather than ruin what few positive memories I do have.

@Mark or @Crystal can ban me or something now.

Goodbye.

 

[shortkut]

I have been very sporadically getting notifications from being tagged, and I see my name mentioned a bunch (both tagged and untagged), which is whatever, can't do anything about that and it isn't going to bother me. By the time I see it, the threads are closed or there are several pages of conversation. I finally got caught up on pretty much all of it, from Cole, TD, Zell, Jon, Tubby, Tommy, etc. etc.

I've seen a lot of opinions, and I've got my own as well. Everybody has their own version of what happened, who was wronged, who should be mad or should not be mad. I've seen a lot of "revisionist history" and claims of it. Some people tried to discredit the wolf win.

If anybody cares, as Cole said, I'm done with GWF for a multitude of reasons:
1. I regret my actions in the wolf game and realized too late that it wasn't worth winning if I'm manipulating real emotions and taking things too far.
2. I have lost at least a couple of friendships. I've had someone imply our friendship never meant anything, somebody I've known for 20 years and was happy to reconnect with, only for things to now be ruined.
3. My name keeps getting brought up negatively, either that I was a prick, a bully, an asshole, toxic, an idiot, or all of the above. I don't need that kind of negativity; nobody does.

The biggest thing to me is, I don't enjoy coming here anymore. I checked back in to see what the notifications were about and see what the general consensus was, after a week or two, and things aren't any better. People are still fighting, and there is one member in particular who is still dragging my name through mud at every opportunity.

I realize I took things too far, and I am very sorry. I have personally and publicly apologized to Vash and others. However, I'm still being trolled and insulted by one member in particular whose friendship I've apparently never truly had, which I don't believe.

I don't get how someone can act like they were upset and left because of anxiety and things getting too personal/mean and definitely not because they rage quit when they didn't get to win the way they wanted, but then they return and continue to bash me and mention me and criticize my playing style and personally attack my ethics and intelligence.

I'm over the whole thing. I need to figure out some way to unregister or whatever.

I'm sorry, again, to the people who I've hurt. I'm sorry to the people who think I hurt them, even if I don't agree with you. I'm actually sorry I even returned here. It isn't just about wolf, it's about being insulted and losing friendships. I will choose to remember people from the original GW and just lose touch with most of you, rather than ruin what few positive memories I do have.

@Mark or @Crystal can ban me or something now.

Goodbye.

1. we accept your apology
2. We’re all moving forward. Nothing says those are lost forever
3. Pretty sure those were all old posts

No one wants you to leave you dingleberry

 

[Crystal]

I'm sorry, again, to the people who I've hurt. I'm sorry to the people who think I hurt them, even if I don't agree with you. I'm actually sorry I even returned here. It isn't just about wolf, it's about being insulted and losing friendships. I will choose to remember people from the original GW and just lose touch with most of you, rather than ruin what few positive memories I do have.

I wish you'd stay, I genuinely believe everyone here cares about you and wants you to be here, no matter what happened in a Wolf game. You're a friend to all of us, Dean, and while I can't speak about any of this wolf stuff because I'm not in it, I sincerely doubt there are hard feelings or that anyone wants you to leave us over a game.

@Mark or @Crystal can ban me or something now.

No.

 

[shortkut]

To be a little more wordy:

@Dean , the fact that you legitimately feel bad for how things turned out is why you shouldn’t leave. We are all mature and trying to figure things out. Feeling real remorse shows that you would try to prevent this from happening in the future.

 

[shortkut]

To post one more time:

@Dean I’d think less/worse of you for just up and leaving than staying. We’re a community/friends/family. Sometimes we all fight, but because we care about each other we try to move on from it, together.

• Did some people feel what you did was shitty? Yes,
• Are we playing another wolf game right now? Also yes.
• Did TD, the one who was most vocal about your actions leave? Yes.
• Did he come back and become excited to watch another wolf game? Also double yes.
• Should you stay and come back? Yes

 

[Jawneh]

@Dean we're all going to start pinging you and also ask @Mark to enabled email notifications for you for all the pings.

I can understand stepping back from wolf games like many folks have thanks to their reasons. There's no reason to skip from all of GW. kut made some lists above so I don't got to reiterate them all. If you got to take a longer break, sure. Go for it. We'll be here. Get a permanent dead thread access and enjoy cookies with Christina. We got plenty of other cool stuff in this little hole of ours.

 

[Jon]

Dean, I've said my piece to you privately. You know how I feel, and I won't try to force you one way or another. I'd like you to stay, but it's not my choice. I like everyone to stay. You do what you need to for yourself because taking care of you is the most important thing. If you want to come back, we'll be here.

 

[shortkut]

Someone who has Dean access outside of GWF, send him my posts

 

[Zell 17]

To post one more time:

@Dean I’d think less/worse of you for just up and leaving than staying. We’re a community/friends/family. Sometimes we all fight, but because we care about each other we try to move on from it, together.

• Did some people feel what you did was shitty? Yes,
• Are we playing another wolf game right now? Also yes.
• Did TD, the one who was most vocal about your actions leave? Yes.
• Did he come back and become excited to watch another wolf game? Also double yes.
• Should you stay and come back? Yes

Finally: Were people over the top in going after Dean? Absolutely.

 

[shortkut]

Finally: Were people over the top in going after Dean? Absolutely.

only if he comes back

 

[shortkut]

Here's what I didn't say but honestly now it just needs to be said.

As a community, you cannot have a double standard.

You cannot play a certain way and act surprised if people get hurt.

You cannot act surprised that the people who got hurt are upset that they got hurt, or that others become upset that people they consider friends got hurt.

You cannot have the same people who were out here being against "swearing on the life of a child" and then applauding a move that faked an anxiety attack.

You know why? It's dismissive. It's selfish. It's inconsiderate of the emotions of others.

While you may have taken issue with one play, another may not feel the same. When we are out here fighting about who was right and who was wrong - it dismisses everyone who has legitimate emotions or feelings on the matter. Everyone.

As someone who consistently struggles with anxiety, you can probably guess which one got me.

My point is this. Overall as a community, there is a lack of accountability for your actions and a lack of empathy for those who have feelings about actions when it comes to this game.

Game after game, there's drama, there's apologies, there's excuses, there's this and there's that. Yet everyone keeps going in the same cycle and somehow people think the issue is resolved.

There is always more perspective. There is always something more.

Some people will put up a giant billboard that they're done. Others will simply just walk away.

Pretty sure most of us consider it a work in progress, not resolved

 

[shortkut]

 

[Tommy Boy]

There are people out there who have considered this resolved. People like you are aware enough to realize, it's not.

I probably fall into this category. At least, this is where I see myself landing. I don't think that after everyone gave their feedback and hugged it out and made up that everything was fully resolved, but I think I may have inadvertently alluded to that with my previous posts. I'll be clear: I think that it is going to be a work in progress to see what fits for all of us. Nothing is magically going to be fixed and repaired overnight, and we all obviously know that. Personally, I think that staying and playing and working through things will lead to a preferable end result (eventually). I don't think leaving or abstaining from discussion produces the same results. But it is what it is, and I respect the decision of anyone to stay or go. Bottom line, I have no control over how others are perceiving what is going on, and I can only be respectful by at least trying to imagine myself in someone else's position.

That being said, I do think this is getting close to beating a dead horse. We are all emotional and it is valid, but at what point do we all agree that in order to get better, we need to move forward? Again, I'm trying to be as diligent and respectful as possible to not invalidate anyone's feelings, but MY feelings more or less think that moving on/forward from this conflict is for the best. This is not to shut people up, this is not to prevent people from sharing how they feel, and this is not to say anyone is wrong or right. Just simply my feelings on where we are currently at. People left and that is their decision. If we moved on like business as usual, then obviously we will continue to have issues. But I truly think after how this game ended, we're all looking to make these games better for everyone. Nobody is saying "let's just keep things how they are". We're all out here looking out for what could be the best way forward. To me, this is the beginning of a resolution, but not the end all-save all. There is work to be done.

I have nothing left for this thread. I care about you all, and I hope that after a few games we can really look back and see how far we have come and how much we have grown. We got this, everyone.

 

[Smacktard]

I can understand why Dean would want to leave, and I don't see any of the recent posts bringing him back.

I also disagree that this is "resolved". The core issue Dean brought up affecting his departure is not resolved, and furthermore seems to be being ignored. And FWIW, I don't think it has as much to do with the Wolf game itself as people are suggesting.

I'm sorry to lose Dean, and I'm sorry for Dean, but I can understand why he wouldn't want to return when he feels like he's not being heard, and when he's continually being told that he is wholly responsible for the Wolf aftermath.

The elephant in the room is that Dean is being bullied. And rather than address that issue or attempt to mediate it, this bullying is being ignored -- perhaps for fear of losing another member.

 

[shortkut]

I can understand why Dean would want to leave, and I don't see any of the recent posts bringing him back.

I also disagree that this is "resolved". The core issue Dean brought up affecting his departure is not resolved, and furthermore seems to be being ignored. And FWIW, I don't think it has as much to do with the Wolf game itself as people are suggesting.

I'm sorry to lose Dean, and I'm sorry for Dean, but I can understand why he wouldn't want to return when he feels like he's not being heard, and when he's continually being told that he is wholly responsible for the Wolf aftermath.

The elephant in the room is that Dean is being bullied. And rather than address that issue or attempt to mediate it, this bullying is being ignored -- perhaps for fear of losing another member.

I hate that he is made to feel like it is all his fault. He may have been straw that broke the camel’s back, but it is an asinine for others to blame him for it all, especially considering the fact he didn’t even play most games.

 

[Raine]

Hello everyone! I, um… I’m here. Lots of tags and comments and such. I kind of feel like I should probably read what’s been happening since apparently it’s still a fresh topic? However, I would like to be selfish and say that I don’t want to.

I just want to say that I’m very embarrassed, and that I would like to apologize to everyone and anyone I lashed out at. While I could list reasons, I feel that may come across more as making excuses than truly/properly explaining anything… so, I won’t. I’m just sorry. For the way things turned out, for the way things are, for adding onto the mess and causing more stress and worry and concern.

I have extensively detailed my history with anger and aggression in a past life elsewhere in GWF. That person no longer exists, that is not who I am now, that is not who I ever wish to channel or become again. There is a point where becoming too emotional - sad, hurt, frustrated - starts to bleed into a secondary angry sensation. I will invariably and immediately hit the eject button the instant I recognize that response building.

It was no singular person, no singular action, and neither the game nor playing of/result of said game that caused my self-removal. I do not want anyone to feel like they’re responsible for this part of the messy situation. I am fine; I have always been fine. And I hope all of you are doing well, too.


@Dean I do not know what all has been said since my departure, but I would like to reaffirm that your sole “offense” was the choice of play style. The framing of that style, by yourself, as trying to be a big “piece of shit” was not super great, but as a shorthand summation I understand it. Still, this feeds into issues and concerns that have plagued the community to date.

So, while I can’t say what’s been lobbed your way is… untrue, particularly when it comes to personal relationships and friendships (and their feelings and triggers therein) it is definitely 1) a convenient jumping off point that regrettably lays too much at your feet and 2) is perhaps not being expressed or phrased in the most charitable/reasonable/considerate of ways every time.

This more casual or off-the-cuff phrasing, too, is a problem that should be addressed. It is ultimately at the core of my withdrawal as well - but I don’t know that this is something that can be “fixed,” so much as worked on. It’s simply too much to ask for everyone to make measured and considered posts at all times; it’s hypocritical for me to even suggest that as I myself don’t (can’t) manage that. So… y’know. Give and take.

That being said, I would also be sad to see you leave if that’s your decision. But I would understand and respect that choice, and wish all the best for you and your family!

…But also, I do think this community has a lot to offer outside of the wolf games. Like the fact that many of us have, we’ll say insight, into some of the ordeals you’ve shared previously. So, do at least consider hanging around.

 

[Raine]

As an aside, currently invading and trapped in Massachusetts. Woo snowstorms while moving apartments for my fiancée. So basically TL;DR I’m on mobile, probably not making any more long posts at the moment ‘cause that sucked.

 

[VashTheStampede]

The elephant in the room is that Dean is being bullied. And rather than address that issue or attempt to mediate it, this bullying is being ignored -- perhaps for fear of losing another member.

I must be missing a bunch of posts somewhere because I have no clue what this is referencing.

 

[VashTheStampede]

Also for the  public record outside of conversations I've had with him, I have no hard feelings towards Dean and still very much like the guy. I really hate that he feels like he needs to leave and hope he reconsiders, and have told him as much privately.

 

[Mark]

Also for the  public record outside of conversations I've had with him, I have no hard feelings towards Dean and still very much like the guy. I really hate that he feels like he needs to leave and hope he reconsiders, and have told him as much privately.

He has also had a private conversation with Crystal and I as well, in which we both reiterated that we saw things differently as non-players and hoped he’d reconsider his decision.

 

[A Punched Face]

I must be missing a bunch of posts somewhere because I have no clue what this is referencing.

He was under the impression that what he was doing was fine and then it ended up not actually being. And then he was very publicly described as being a selfish player because the moves he was making were giving him better odds (at least in his mind, and in the way Zell had it played out) at his run condition as opposed to letting the couple win out, because nether of them saw a path to a wolf victory.

I can tell you that having only read the summaries here and the dead thread, reading what TD and Raine had posted came across as them not seeing any possibility of a wolf win and they they thought Dean was just making moves to make them lose. Even after Zell wrote up how it could have played out, they disagreed. Raine thought there was an avenger that wasn't there and that it would have resulted in them all losing.

Dean made moves that he regrets, and probably should. But selfish? He was playing to his win condition that he honestly had a path to get to. Just because other people didn't see it doesn't mean it wasn't there.

If people are okay with calling him selfish for playing to his win condition then I can tell you that's a big reason why there's a lot of animosity after some of these games. The other shit in there? Yeah, he has and should have apologized. But the way he was voting at the end shouldn't offend anyone. That it was a different plan than people who wanted to win and have him lose should not offend anyone.

I'm not sure if you missed people that part about being upset over how he was voting or if it's just all mixing together. But it was definitely there.

 

[VashTheStampede]

I totally get the disagreement on all that stuff. It was the bullying charge that surprised me. I didn't see it that way at all, but I suppose if I squint real hard and turn my head just so, I can see that perspective.

 

[shortkut]

He was under the impression that what he was doing was fine and then it ended up not actually being. And then he was very publicly described as being a selfish player because the moves he was making were giving him better odds (at least in his mind, and in the way Zell had it played out) at his run condition as opposed to letting the couple win out, because nether of them saw a path to a wolf victory.

I can tell you that having only read the summaries here and the dead thread, reading what TD and Raine had posted came across as them not seeing any possibility of a wolf win and they they thought Dean was just making moves to make them lose. Even after Zell wrote up how it could have played out, they disagreed. Raine thought there was an avenger that wasn't there and that it would have resulted in them all losing.

Dean made moves that he regrets, and probably should. But selfish? He was playing to his win condition that he honestly had a path to get to. Just because other people didn't see it doesn't mean it wasn't there.

If people are okay with calling him selfish for playing to his win condition then I can tell you that's a big reason why there's a lot of animosity after some of these games. The other shit in there? Yeah, he has and should have apologized. But the way he was voting at the end shouldn't offend anyone. That it was a different plan than people who wanted to win and have him lose should not offend anyone.

I'm not sure if you missed people that part about being upset over how he was voting or if it's just all mixing together. But it was definitely there.

if anything, my sabotaging the first couple win was more selfish than this because this gave Dean a chance at winning. What I did was petty, you screw with my winning then I’ll screw with yours. I still feel bad that I hurt Vash and Christina by doing it, but without the benefit of hindsight, I would do it again because I was acting in game. Had I known there were any real world feelings hurt, I wouldn’t have because it’s just a game to me

 

[Raine]

I can’t effectively quote at present, my phone skills suck.

If Dean has taken offense to my usage of the word selfish, I will gladly apologize for that. My intent was not to disparage him, merely comment on a style of play that I would categorize as “reckless” or counterintuitive to winning. In generality, not from a Cupid Couple perspective.

It’s a style of play that he does; I mean it strictly as a descriptor of that. Insofar that keeping your trap on yourself as Beast Hunter, insofar that holding the town hostage as Avenger, insofar that making unilateral decisions as part of a wolf team.

These are neutral “selfish” qualifiers. At no point should these be interpreted as “Dean is a selfish person,” and any other suggested word that people would 1) understand and 2) be more responsive to, merely tell me and I will gladly alter verbiage.


I would also take the opportunity that I tried to keep personal and game stuff in separate post. None of my issues had anything to do with “the game,” and most of them cropped up after “the game.” …I think this makes sense in my head but I don’t know if it makes sense outside of it?

 

[A Punched Face]

I totally get the disagreement on all that stuff. It was the bullying charge that surprised me. I didn't see it that way at all, but I suppose if I squint real hard and turn my head just so, I can see that perspective.

I'm not saying one way or the other is how Dean took it, just that's what I believe it was referring to.

I personally wouldn't have described it as selfish, I also wouldn't call a beast hunter leaving the trap on themselves as selfish. Raine probably didn't mean it to come across that way. Basically this could come from a lot of things being read in ways they weren't intended.

 

[Tubby23]

Warning: long post, potentially too direct but I tend to be direct in nature but wish to acknowledge that everyone's feelings are legitimate as they're internally how they feel. If my post is too direct in nature and makes you feel uncomfortable please tell me and I will edit.

Given it seems to be generally agreed that not everything is resolved I have tried to develop some rules/terms of engagement for wolf games that, I think, presents a common sense but direct approach to solving the issues.

And while some of the language is fairly direct or black and white, please don't take that as me diminishing people's personal feelings I am purely trying to offer a solution to this ongoing debate which I feel has become circular, and if I'm honest about my own feelings is starting to lead to me getting frustrated that we can't solve the issue.

Rules/Terms of Engagement
1. Use of out of game emotions in manipulating the game is strictly banned. Example, I'm really frustrated that the Marksman didn't target the Shadow Wolf (good), I have been up all night stressing about this because you did that (bad, and I believe should be at the GMs discretion to remove from game for health reasons. If the game has you up all night then we need to give you a break for the protection of your own mental health, this is even if you were 100% legitimately right to be annoyed by that person's action eg: Tubby not understanding how a timeline works is frustrating but shouldn't keep you up at night)
2. Use of non-game methods of committing to your story are strictly banned. Example, I swear on my life I have a good aura, check me tonight and if I come back bad kill me tomorrow. Or I swear Benzine is a wolf so we must vote off Benzine, if I'm wrong kill me tomorrow (Good). I swear on my mother's life I'm not a wolf (bad)
3. The game is played at the players risk, if the above rules are observed and the game is still causing you personal problems we welcome you to watch the game but ask that you don't participate.
4. Attributing in-game actions that do not break the above rules as being a part of another player's IRL character can't happen. For example, lying through your teeth in game for the whole game will not be held against people (I think this we are already good with but felt potentially it needs to be reiterated, given the most recent developments)
5. GMs have the discretion to remove any, and all, players seen not to be observing the above rules.
6. Players who wish not to play, are not to be pestered to play. Whether you think they should play or not is irrelevant, they will play when and if ready. (a player quitting for the protection of their own mental health should be commended for taking a really healthy step to protect themselves)

Now I think those are fairly straight forward and common sense without being overly draconian. If we think we can't put those rules in place and still play fun games of wolf then we shouldn't be playing at all.

I have come up with this based on the following facts that I think exist and that we, in my opinion, can universally agree on:

Fact 1. We have an issue that has come up as a result of wolf games that remains unresolved.

Fact 2. That issue is not at the foot of one person and I don't think anyone has intentionally suggested that there is only one player at fault.

Fact 3. We all are very different people, who it seems at times get their wires crossed when communicating in written form and a lot of these issues may be more easily resolved in an in-person setting.

Fact 4. Those who have felt the need to stop playing, having expressed thoughts on what may need to be fixed and while others (and I probably fall into this category) can see what they're saying it's hard to full understand until you're impacted negatively.

Players who have left or needed breaks generally comes from a combination of personal emotions and game frustration creating a perfect storm inside them that makes them want/need to quit playing for a time or permanently. Their fellow players can try to control their contribution to this issue through following a set of rules as outlined above.

Fact 5. No set of rules will be perfect, nor can it be expected that any proposed rules will be able to cover every potential trigger that a player may experience. The games should be played in a way that does offer some protection, with individual players then also applying their own thoughts to whether they should play or not based on where they feel they're sitting at that point in time. For example, Vash is a good example of sitting out games where he doesn't feel he wants to play (Vash I hope this is OK to say, don't want to put words or thoughts in your mouth), this should be commended and is healthy to do. If this means we play wolf less regularly because more people take more breaks and look after themselves, I actually think that's a win. We will sustain the game long term with a healthier player base.

 

[A Punched Face]

This may or may not be directed at me, but I'm interpreting it as such.

If this is the conclusion that has been drawn as the catalyst, it highlights the problem. People here aren't heard. They aren't listened to.

Emotions are continually dismissed, even in a post game. Almost every post game I'm out here reminding people that the game is over so be careful what you say. Even the game I was The Fool, I had to come out and say it.

In reading the post game discussion, I perceived a minimum of six, yes, SIX people who had their emotions dismissed and then the conclusion is to carry on their merry way.

Some are still out here trying to blame, point the finger, and even regurgigate their own perspective which is counter to what that person has said.

We need to stop acting like there's a villain here. It's not Dean, it's not me, it's not Vash, Raine, or whoever else is trying to be pointed at as the villain of this game.

This is a collective community problem and if people have a problem with me still trying to talk about this, then don't discuss it with me.

But to run around pretending everything is okay and this shit isn't in shambles is not the way to go.

Tubby has the right idea - trying to come to an actual solution to avoid this ongoing problem from continuing to happen.

Basically this could come from a lot of things being read in ways they weren't intended.

The end of my last message here is the important bit. I was trying to explain where the potential bullying comment came from. It's a very persistent problem here.

 

[Mark]

But with a vague "Dean was bullied" comment out there and leaving it as a guessing game is not the way to handle this.

Not gonna lie, that had me scouring the threads trying to pick up something I missed… until I came to the conclusion it had to have been in a private conversation, or I am REALLY dense and not seeing it on the forums. Like I told Dean directly, I didn’t interpret what was being said about him as anything other than criticism of the play style, which is what it was. The times before, it was other players. The username attached to the issue doesn’t matter when it reoccurs with different people.

Because my perspective?
I was being bullied myself while multiple people dragged my name from the mud, making judgments of my character while I'm not here, speculating what happened, saying I'm shitty, a hypocrite, and all the other shit I read, and being pretty much fucking wrong about who I am. Then - I have a few of my friends here trying to be like hey maybe there's a TD side to this and it blows up into a fight.

To be fair, it’s the same amount of speculation with anyone else in this situation, and it stems from no clear resolution to the reoccurring problem, which can best be described as a blurry line that players have knowingly, unknowingly, intentionally, or unintentionally crossed. When you vanish, or when Dean vanishes, all that’s left is speculating about what made that decision final. You know just as well as I do that there are only so many avenues that one can go down with that kind of thinking, and it’s usually either that the person leaving is a dick, a collective blame game, or the best possible outcome… everyone saying “what can we do to make this better for everyone?”

There's more to this community than wolf. I'm here because of GWF but I'll never play another game again. I'm fine with that, but the fact that it crossed my mind to leave here OVERALL because of a game, the fact we've lost members, the fact that Dean is so guilt ridden and feels like everyone is attacking him so he leaves the entire board.

Which is one of the points I addressed while you were gone… It sucks that y’all are at a point where this person can’t play and that person won’t play, all for the sake of preserving friendships that were damaged… over a game. A few people were concerned about staff stepping in. I don’t wanna do that, my only role should be helping the GM’s keep y’all entertained.

The fact we've had a game be the reason that so many people have felt the need to outright leave the community whether temporary or permanently is just flat out not okay.

Agreed. It’s etiquette. You realize what bothers who, and you don’t do it. It’s pretty simple.

I almost flat out left again after reading what I came back to but again, there's a lot more to this shit than "Don't play wolf".

No one should have to penalize themselves and stay away from a community they want to be a part of because of a game. Period. Not you, not Dean, not anyone. There are some people I won’t sweat losing, like Impulsive. We don’t need that kinda bullshit here. Everyone else should feel welcome.

If I have the opportunity to chime in for an issue that is completely unresolved to try to protect the emotions and feelings of the people here so we don't lose more members here I'm going to do it.

And you should, as should ANYONE. There isn’t a single person here that should feel like they don’t have a voice. If anyone sees anything fucked up, I hope they let it be known. If addressing the individual doesn’t work, address staff. If the issue is staff, post a public thread in the Q&S forum if it’s an admin causing the issue, or reach out to an admin if it’s a moderator causing the issue. None of us are above reproach here, and we WANT feedback. There’s a reason we put the effort into the Q&S forum that we do, we want to stay on top of the issues here.