Zell Wolf GWF Zell Wolf Version XI Day 6

[Tubby23]

Sacrifice is my middle name in these games.


The real turning point was when people didn't vote Benzine.

I'm not going to write a big post myself about what happened. I am sad that people got hurt due to the game and hope them the best to recover and be back asap so that all our lovely cuties can mingle together again. Game wise, I'm impressed at quite a few people's game this time around, except for Tubby hiding his trap up his own butt. Lows and highs for everyone. I do hope we all can still come back and play the game again together after everything has cooled off.

That's the first time ever I have used a protection role to protect myself. I regret it

 

[VashTheStampede]

That's the first time ever I have used a protection role to protect myself. I regret it

I WAS RIGHT THERE

 

[Tubby23]

I WAS RIGHT THERE

Yeah but by then it would have taken a day to move haha.

At least I get how the Beast Hunter timeline works now and we didn't have a repeat of that fiasco

 

[VashTheStampede]

Do we need to look at buffing Beast Hunter?

That delay in setting a trap feels real bad.

 

[VashTheStampede]

Lmao who the fuck is "we", Vash?

 

[A Punched Face]

Yeah but by then it would have taken a day to move haha.

At least I get how the Beast Hunter timeline works now and we didn't have a repeat of that fiasco

The timeline is "fuck all y'all I'm protected"

 

[Tubby23]

Do we need to look at buffing Beast Hunter?

That delay in setting a trap feels real bad.

It's really tough because if you get it wrong and then need to move it you've not protected anyone for two days. But then it's also an unlimited protection/return kill to all normal wolf and solo attacks so it's quite powerful.

 

[Tubby23]

The timeline is "fuck all y'all I'm protected"

Legitimately where I got to, if I protect myself I can just keep getting through and not confuse myself

 

[shortkut]

I’ve been saying vote Zell from the first game. Had we voted him that early, he never would have had a chance to add the Cupid to the game

 

[VashTheStampede]

Hey dead thread people, here's the post I refused to make earlier:

It's not even just having serious illness in the family.

People struggle with anxiety and depression and similar shit on the daily without needing a catastrophic event to justify shit being hard.

We are out here celebrating someone using these very real feelings to manipulate people for a fucking game. High fiving and shit.

Dean, you're right. I fucking had you from the start. Dead to rights, exactly what you were up to.

Then comes the anxiety talk. And the wanting to quit over it.

I immediately tried to help you. Wanted to support you. Told you about how I just had to sit out of a game because I was dealing with shit too. What a big fucking moron I was. Oh boy, ya got me!

And then when it became obvious that you played me, I wasn't even mad at you. You played the game. I was mad at myself for caring. That's fucked.

I think I am a much different and, honestly, better person than I was in the old GW days. I chalk that up to appreciating empathy. I feel like if the world had more empathy, we'd be in a much better place.

I don't want to participate in something where you're celebrated for toying with people. Raine has it right, IMO. Lying within the confines of the game? Hell yeah, all day long.

You cannot fuck with people's emotions and act surprised when people get emotional.

That's why I'm out.

tl;dr: y'all motherfuckers need Jesus

 

[Dean]

tl;dr: y'all motherfuckers need Jesus

None of this would've happened if we hadn't lynched TD last game.

(Is it hadn't or wouldn't have in that case?)

 

[shortkut]

 

[Dean]

I know I'm ripping off the bandaid, but I don't know how much longer we will chat about the game, so whatever.

TD is the ultimate "the game ain't over till it's over" player. He would NOT let us plan far ahead because too much changes. That's where we butted heads the most.

Raine is kind of like that, though I could see her also spazzing and such.

For being that way, TD was convinced the only possible ways for it to end were Cupid or Town victories.

I hope this shows that the game truly isn't over until it's over. Even Benzine resigned himself to the fact that it was going to be a Cupid win no matter what, and he's way smarter at these games than I am.

I guess I'm just dense and determined (or stupid and stubborn).

 

[Tubby23]

The town was still winning Dean!!!!

 

[Dean]

The town was still winning Dean!!!!

It ain't over till it's over

 

[Jon]

tl;dr: y'all motherfuckers need Jesus

 

[Raine]

I had my big girl nap, and have returned. First and foremost, I apologize if anything came across the wrong way. Emotions and all that.

Haven't read through the thread yet, but also: I (we, presumably) apologize for ruining the ending here. I (we, obviously) aren't very good at this.

Y'all know TD's having a rough go, of course. And he's to be heading to his family for Christmas, with what could - very much, absolutely will not, you understand - be the last one they get together. So I'm sure that'll be the catalyst for this.

But also, he felt really, genuinely bad about Dean. About needing to fuck Dean over if he and I (and Tommy) were to win. And as you can see from the couple Lovers Chat messages I quoted, he wasn't handling it very well.

...I didn't sleep very well last night, either. I was under the impression that Dean was on board in a "we're both going to lose anyway, fuck the town, burn it all down" kind of way. I don't know if the name Anubis rings any bells for you, @Dean? Back on the OG forum? We had a similar situation together there, in a Vampire game or something. You and I being the baddies, me having to screw over Anubis to win. And I did, and I didn't like it. I think Anubis left the forums some short time later, and I vowed never to do something like that again.

I put the question to you and Tubby last night just so we could be on the same page. With the information I was working with, the assumptions made, we (wolves + Cupid) needed to kill one and only one person successfully at night. It was then just lynching townies until Tommy and Kat remained... and then killing you, to avoid the wolf auto-win. Anything else and by rights the town should have won.

When Tubby decided to go for it on his end I threw the thumbs up but the thread closed before I could write anything else. I gave TD, uhh, power of attorney and went to bed so you could all wrap the game up. Which didn't happen.

And then something bad happened instead, in Wolf Chat, and I don't really know what triggered it or even what it was.

My assumption is that TD felt betrayed by not just calling the game, since 1) the game truly was over if the wolves and Cupid didn't team up (even though one, the wolves, would be forced to lose) and 2) the aforementioned thing about genuinely feeling bad about needing to betray you. So if you wrote something like "Playing to my win condition," without a bunch of other words... again, assumptions, but I could see that causing a spiral. Making him feel like he cared more about you as a person than you did him. And I'm not saying playing to your win condition is bad, but...

You guys need to realize that TD and I don't? Winning is a sometimes bonus; living more than a day or two is cause for celebration sometimes! (and even though I'm deeply honored people have a decent opinion of my play, it is unwarranted lol) TD gets a bit irritated that he can't play the game properly, of course... and I'm more the type to just be happy to fill a spot and maybe press some buttons or whatever. TD's favorite moment is getting revived (by me~) as the Illusionist, telling everyone he was going to play to his win condition, and then: Lamb Chop. My favorite moment is stealing shortkut's mangled corpse and then getting burnt to death. You know?

We never really thought we could win, we were just horsing around and having fun. If Vash came at us - and he definitely knew - we would put up a fight, maybe/probably lose, and that would be that. Pulling off that crazy prison break was hysterical. But we were probably always going to die, and that was definitely always fine. The rug pull hurt though, and then whatever exactly has happened here... and yeah.

Is this even coherent anymore? I don't know. If you read it, thanks. If not (fucking shortkut ) that's okay too.

I don't know if TD will come back or not. He's been teetering for a while, and I managed to talk him off the ledge last time... but a break is probably best. Fingers crossed.



As for me, I'm sad. I'll take a break from the games for a little while. But I'll let you bully me some more in the future, so, save a seat on the pain train.

 

[shortkut]

As for me, I'm sad. I'll take a break from the games for a little while. But I'll let you bully me some more in the future, so, save a seat on the pain train

Next game isn’t a wolf clone, so put on your big girl pants and strap in because you’re not getting off this train yet

 

[Tubby23]

@Raine to confirm (and no pressure either way) you're out for my game?

 

[Dean]

Thank you for sharing all that, @Raine. I mean it.

I feel stupid now, but I had no idea about TD's real life shit. I still only read a couple of posts in that thread, because selfishly, I don't want to get really sad about it.

I'm not going to share the private messages out of respect for TD. Like I said, we were on the same page for like 80% of the game. I wanted to go after bigger fish and plan ahead. He wanted to take things step by step, not take anything for granted, and pick people who wouldn't potentially be protected.

I went along with TD when he and Jon were the ones with voting power. Jon let TD call the shots. TD DID ask my opinion. When I pulled the power move, resigned my Seer abilities, and took over the voting rights, he was miffed. We talked it out and seemed to be okay, but I don't think he ever got over it.

I'm sure the real life situations didn't help. I just hope he is okay mentally and comes back after Christmas and New Year's if he feels like it.

 

[Jon]

put the question to you and Tubby last night just so we could be on the same page. With the information I was working with, the assumptions made, we (wolves + Cupid) needed to kill one and only one person successfully at night. It was then just lynching townies until Tommy and Kat remained... and then killing you, to avoid the wolf auto-win. Anything else and by rights the town should have won.

I just want to address this as I don't think there is a need to debate anything else as it's mostly positing. And unless TD tells us, we may never know. I KNOW we all wish him well, however.

There was a LOT of talk in the dead thread about how the town had the slimmest margin. After my death, you guys needed to draw ONE no lynch, and you did, and that sealed the town out as long as Dean and the Cupid trio stayed together. You'd force draws on the lynches and kill with a wolf kill. It was EITHER a wolf win or a Cupid win honestly. It was who was going to be able to go through with the betrayal...

Which is honestly where this fell apart.

Moral of the story and tl;dr: FUCK CUPID AND DELETE THE ROLE. Tyvm. This Ted Talk is now over.

 

[Tubby23]

I just want to address this as I don't think there is a need to debate anything else as it's mostly positing. And unless TD tells us, we may never know. I KNOW we all wish him well, however.

There was a LOT of talk in the dead thread about how the town had the slimmest margin. After my death, you guys needed to draw ONE no lynch, and you did, and that sealed the town out as long as Dean and the Cupid trio stayed together. You'd force draws on the lynches and kill with a wolf kill. It was EITHER a wolf win or a Cupid win honestly. It was who was going to be able to go through with the betrayal...

Which is honestly where this fell apart.

Moral of the story and tl;dr: FUCK CUPID AND DELETE THE ROLE. Tyvm. This Ted Talk is now over.

TLDR: it's all Tubby's fault

 

[Jon]

TLDR: it's all Tubby's fault

Tubby =/= Cupid

 

[Raine]

@Raine to confirm (and no pressure either way) you're out for my game?

I think that would be best unless you absolutely need a body, yes. Focusing at the moment is not really in the cards.

 

[Tommy Boy]

Tubby =/= Cupid

 

[Tubby23]

I think that would be best unless you absolutely need a body, yes. Focusing at the moment is not really in the cards.

All good I think I can make it work with 15.

 

[Tubby23]

Tubby =/= Cupid

Imagine it turned out I wasn't really the Beast Hunter.......

 

[Raine]

It was EITHER a wolf win or a Cupid win honestly. It was who was going to be able to go through with the betrayal...

So about that...




Pictured: Poor @Tommy Boy going for the ride of his life. (Does this also count as betrayal...? Were we doomed either way?!)

 

[Jon]

I don't think I'd have had the stomach for betraying anyone.

 

[A Punched Face]

I don't think I'd have had the stomach for betraying anyone.

"The wolves decided to eat themselves for the good of their souls"

 

[Dean]

The sad thing is, I would've expected TD to do the same to me, and I wouldn't have been that mad at it.

Different styles and philosophies. I hope he's okay.

 

[shortkut]

The sad thing is, I would've expected TD to do the same to me, and I wouldn't have been that mad at it.

Different styles and philosophies. I hope he's okay.

Sometimes something doesn't even have to be related to what’s wrong to set you off. It just happens

 

[A Punched Face]

Sometimes something doesn't even have to be related to what’s wrong to set you off. It just happens

Everyone has those moments. The dog trainer we're working with for Somer made a good analogy when talking about dogs being set off "randomly"

Some days you can walk and catching your bag or sleeve on the door is fine. Other days it happens and you want to start breaking things or screaming.

 

[Fool's Requiem]

is it safe to post here? I hope no one quits or doesn't quit for long (heck, even I took a break for a couple).

 

[Tubby23]

is it safe to post here? I hope no one quits or doesn't quit for long (heck, even I took a break for a couple).

Yes it's safe.

 

[Tommy Boy]

Some days you can walk and catching your bag or sleeve on the door is fine. Other days it happens and you want to start breaking things or screaming.

 

[Raine]

So after reading the thread in full: Regretfully, no, you guys don't have any idea about how people like me (and to some extent, TD and Vash) operate. Think of it like this: You're playing something like Connect Four. You guys are, y'know, just playing the game - putting your discs in, trying to get the line of four.

Meanwhile jackasses like me are trying to draw sunflowers using both of our pieces, just to see if we can. We won't win - that's not even the point - we're just spending time with you and trying to entertain us both.

It's... maybe not perfect, but it'll do. Anyway:

I didn't expect this as the end result, and I'm sorry if the way I played this role bothered anyone. I think we were pretty close to winning but there were like 3 times where I contributed only to make things harder for my couple.

You're fine, no worries. We weren't sure why you revealed yourself for a number of reasons, and some of the comments made about anyone were kind of dicey. But aside from the thing that made TD think you outright outed us, we were fine with you.

So anyway, TD wanted me to secure the win for the Cupid team. He got pissed that I resigned my powers without consulting with him, even though he was planning to fuck me over.

So as noted, he actually wasn't - and we wanted to get confirmation on Kat because her being an Avenger made more sense than her being a Loudmouth. Since TD was the lowest ranked wolf things like hitting the Beast Hunter's trap would kill him (and me), and there was no real telling if Kat ever took her target off of you.

I fully expected you to end up giving the town the win by going gung-ho trying to snatch victory. Before... all this.

Anyway, back to the game. I wanted to prove to Cole, Zell, and everybody else, that someone CAN be a big enough piece of shit to win as a wolf. It was never easy, and I used Raine and TD through most of the game, but she thought that they were using me. When the tables were turned, apparently that wasn't cool. I don't agree.

So full disclosure, TD never told me who the wolves were and I used my first check before we were even set as the Cupid pair. It's harder to see clearly when you already know who the wolves are, so TD and I were coming at it from different ends. The only things I got throughout the course of the game were FR's and shortkut's actual roles while the two of us compared notes.

I'm the one that thought Jumpman was Strong Villager #3, for example, based on something he said during Day 1.

And the problem, sadly, has never been that it's not possible to win as a wolf. It's always been a matter of the cost being too high - I've brought it up a bunch of times, and regretfully now you can see for yourself firsthand.

I was fixated on being the first wolf player to actually win under Zell's rules. I was willing to do absolutely anything. I crossed some lines, but I was willing to, and I own up to my actions. If you all hate me, then I'm sorry that I was a fucking conniving horrible piece of shit.

I don't hate you, of course.

I just find it... sadly poetic, that a large part of the reason you wanted so desperately to win, is the same reason I was ultimately fine losing. Between removing that carrot and TD's feelings about not wanting to betray you, I knew it was time for the streak to end.

TD was jailed with shortkut. Somehow TD and Raine figured out that Kelly was the Warden. I think Raine used her Detective powers and TD took a big gamble.

This is right. TD asked me to seer check Kelly to be sure. Raine had narrowed it down somehow before that with the Detective power.

Wild. The detective role shouldn't have helped, though. They already knew who was on each team (except maybe Jump). So a combination of luck, process of elimination, and good reads? Impressive move, to be sure.

Haha... nope. No Detective role required.

TD immediately took shortkut's head off, and then tasked me with helping him find the Warden. I started by pointing out that technically only two Protector claims were present at the time - Tubby (as Tough Guy) and Kat (as ??? Seer/Protector) - and then TD asked me to take a look at "the first couple of pages" of Day 2. And I saw what he saw. I then proposed that he go ahead and have Kelly checked using the Wolf Seer - TD was already pretty sure Kelly was the Warden before he even asked for my opinion - because if that came up negative at least it would theoretically be a 50/50. And I had basically ruled out Kat because she called it the Jailer instead of the Warden.

Would you like to see what got Kelly killed?



If you do anything, we will find you. Independently extremely likely, together absolutely assured.

 

[Dean]

TD was pretty determined to honor the primary win condition with you, Raine. I know you're saying you guys didn't care about winning, but I think you both - especially TD - cared enough about the integrity of the game and the win objectives that it was still the goal. But I also know that TD is driven more by great plays, reads, memorable moments, etc. than just winning, so I get it. He was really proud of that Warden read. I didn't mean to discredit by saying he got the info from you. It is definitely an impressive feat. I am not that perceptive lol

Also @Raine , my memory for stuff from the old GW is horrible. Obviously the situation where you double crossed Anubis stuck with you. I don't remember that situation, but yeah, I guess I see this as a game of deceit and double crossing in a lot of ways. I figure if someone signs up for a game and knows the rules and the potential dirty plays, they are okay with it.

 

[shortkut]

TD immediately took shortkut's head off, and then tasked me with helping him find the Warden

This timeline confuses me. I thought when jailed, you cannot participate in any of private chats like couple or wolf. Somehow this info also got to the wolves to kill the warden that same night. Those timestamps match when TD used the weapon against me, but nothing in the warden description says the person who uses the weapon is unjailed after using it. @Zell 17 shy wasn’t TD in jail until morning? That would have changed the entire game. Kelly would out TD, which takes the couple out immediately and we get two sheriffs and keep our protector

 

[Dean]

This timeline confuses me. I thought when jailed, you cannot participate in any of private chats like couple or wolf. Somehow this info also got to the wolves to kill the warden that same night. Those timestamps match when TD used the weapon against me, but nothing in the warden description says the person who uses the weapon is unjailed after using it. @Zell 17 shy wasn’t TD in jail until morning? That would have changed the entire game. Kelly would out TD, which takes the couple out immediately and we get two sheriffs and keep our protector

There actually is some language somewhere about once a weapon is used, the prisoners are released, regardless of the outcome. It's in the fine print. I'm too tired and lazy to look, but Jon and I said the same thing.

TD actually had a strategy the whole time about what we would do in different scenarios if we were jailed.

 

[Raine]

TD was pretty determined to honor the primary win condition with you, Raine. I know you're saying you guys didn't care about winning, but I think you both - especially TD - cared enough about the integrity of the game and the win objectives that it was still the goal.

Oh, sure. His #1 priority was trying to win as the Cupid pair, but failing that it was getting the wolves into the best possible position to win.

And I honored his wishes, too. I didn't directly come at you or Jon once I figured you out, I just... nudged. @Jon's response to my call was so damning though. Just tell them you were aiming at me and changed your mind!

I wouldn't have let him betray you if last night had gone differently. He wouldn't have felt good about it.

But I also know that TD is driven more by great plays, reads, memorable moments, etc. than just winning, so I get it. He was really proud of that Warden read. I didn't mean to discredit by saying he got the info from you. It is definitely an impressive feat. I am not that perceptive lol

Oh yeah, I'm not saying you were discrediting it - just showing how it was done.

I mean, hell, Tommy once did a Seer claim using a single reaction in like a 10-page thread and we locked that down (although to be fair it was on one of TD's posts so he had an easier time ).

Also @Raine , my memory for stuff from the old GW is horrible. Obviously the situation where you double crossed Anubis stuck with you. I don't remember that situation, but yeah, I guess I see this as a game of deceit and double crossing in a lot of ways. I figure if someone signs up for a game and knows the rules and the potential dirty plays, they are okay with it.

Yeah, to an extent. But like Vash's post basically boils down to: If the only way to win is to do something you won't feel great about after, or might cause the other party undue stress, it'll never be worth doing.

Like, I'll joke or tease or pull pranks all day. But I won't make a fool of you. If that makes sense.

 

[Jon]

This timeline confuses me. I thought when jailed, you cannot participate in any of private chats like couple or wolf. Somehow this info also got to the wolves to kill the warden that same night. Those timestamps match when TD used the weapon against me, but nothing in the warden description says the person who uses the weapon is unjailed after using it. @Zell 17 shy wasn’t TD in jail until morning? That would have changed the entire game. Kelly would out TD, which takes the couple out immediately and we get two sheriffs and keep our protector

Warden
Aura: Unknown
During the day, can select to jail two players at night. Selection is done via PM to me. Cannot jail fewer than two players and cannot jail the same player two nights in a row or jail themselves. Jailed players cannot perform any actions at night. Jailed players cannot be killed by normal wolf/solo attacks. Jailed players will be placed in a group chat for the night. The Warden cannot contribute to the discussion but will be given a full transcript. The Warden can choose to give either player a weapon. That player can choose to use it against the person they are jailed with. If a player attempts to use it against someone on their own team, the player using the weapon will die. Otherwise, the other prisoner will be killed. The weapon can only be used once per game, but if not used, the Warden can continue to offer it on future jailings. If the warden is nightmared, they can still detain two players. They will not be able to drop the weapon. If the Warden jails two wolves, the wolves can choose to break free of jail and kill the warden. If the warden is killed at night or the weapon is used, the players are immediately unjailed and may use night actions if available.

I had to ask the same thing in the wolf chat

 

[shortkut]

Warden
Aura: Unknown
During the day, can select to jail two players at night. Selection is done via PM to me. Cannot jail fewer than two players and cannot jail the same player two nights in a row or jail themselves. Jailed players cannot perform any actions at night. Jailed players cannot be killed by normal wolf/solo attacks. Jailed players will be placed in a group chat for the night. The Warden cannot contribute to the discussion but will be given a full transcript. The Warden can choose to give either player a weapon. That player can choose to use it against the person they are jailed with. If a player attempts to use it against someone on their own team, the player using the weapon will die. Otherwise, the other prisoner will be killed. The weapon can only be used once per game, but if not used, the Warden can continue to offer it on future jailings. If the warden is nightmared, they can still detain two players. They will not be able to drop the weapon. If the Warden jails two wolves, the wolves can choose to break free of jail and kill the warden. If the warden is killed at night or the weapon is used, the players are immediately unjailed and may use night actions if available.

I had to ask the same thing in the wolf chat

Thanks. I read that last part as only if the warden is killed. I don’t think using the weapon should release them, even if I wasn’t involved, but that’s neither here nor there

 

[Raine]

This timeline confuses me. I thought when jailed, you cannot participate in any of private chats like couple or wolf. Somehow this info also got to the wolves to kill the warden that same night. Those timestamps match when TD used the weapon against me, but nothing in the warden description says the person who uses the weapon is unjailed after using it. @Zell 17 shy wasn’t TD in jail until morning? That would have changed the entire game. Kelly would out TD, which takes the couple out immediately and we get two sheriffs and keep our protector

New change made to this game, after the whole metagaming thread/thing. And also me trying to convince Zell to let me murder (Wolf) Avengers as the Jailer/Warden and negating their avenging.

Previously, if the Warden/Jailer was killed then the inmate(s) could immediately use their night actions.

Now, if the weapon is used, the inmates are immediately freed and can use their night actions.

 

[Dean]

I make a fool of myself all the time anyway, so no need.

 

[Jon]

@Jon's response to my call was so damning though. Just tell them you were aiming at me and changed your mind!

When your question came up, I asked TD if I should respond or ignore. He recommend I ignore it and let it go. I had a response lined up.

I had an inkling from early on he was coupled, but by this point he told us it was you. So I didn't want to blow any plans you two were brewing so I asked and did what he recommended. I assumed he told you we were so I felt it didn't matter either way.

 

[shortkut]

New change made to this game, after the whole metagaming thread/thing. And also me trying to convince Zell to let me murder (Wolf) Avengers as the Jailer/Warden and negating their avenging.

Previously, if the Warden/Jailer was killed then the inmate(s) could immediately use their night actions.

Now, if the weapon is used, the inmates are immediately freed and can use their night actions.

I knew that wasn’t always part of the role!

 

[Raine]

Thanks. I read that last part as only if the warden is killed. I don’t think using the weapon should release them, even if I wasn’t involved, but that’s neither here nor there

I would agree, but then the whole (Wolf) Avenger negating doesn't get covered. Which I still don't agree with.

 

[Jon]

Thanks. I read that last part as only if the warden is killed. I don’t think using the weapon should release them, even if I wasn’t involved, but that’s neither here nor there

Yep, I had thought so too, so I asked for clarification in wolf chat at the time. We weren't aware (Dean and I) until that point. TD knew it all along.

 

[shortkut]

I blame Zell!