Ok, Ok, Let's Talk Trans

[Crystal]

Agreed, he's essentially profiting from his ability to curtail hecklers, that's his key selling point in most of his videos; however, the fact he's at least making the effort to score some brownie points is progress...ish. It'd be nice to get beyond that and hear good jokes about the trans experience, but we'll take what we can get for now

 

[shortkut]

Trans comedy is...hard (pun not intended). One day we'll get the barriers broken down and trans comedy will start to sit in the same vein as other comedy, but we're a long, long way from not being the butt of the joke.

I’ve noticed that the types of jokes that are acceptable regarding trans individuals are changing

 

[Crystal]

I’ve noticed that the types of jokes that are acceptable regarding trans individuals are changing

Slowly but surely. Less about how hilarious it is that guys dress up and pretend to be women, and more about situational and real issues. Long may that trend continue.

 

[Marlfox]

Thanks all, big fan of this thread, very interesting to understand the terms and your experiences. Makes it feel a lot more relatable.

I was wondering, is "transsexual" an outdated term?

I'm thinking it was replaced by transgender which better reflects that it's about what gender you are, not what gender you're attracted to. Or maybe I have it wrong here and transsexual is still in use to refer to... changing the gender of people you are attracted to, I guess?

 

[Crystal]

Thanks all, big fan of this thread, very interesting to understand the terms and your experiences. Makes it feel a lot more relatable.

I was wondering, is "transsexual" an outdated term?

I'm thinking it was replaced by transgender which better reflects that it's about what gender you are, not what gender you're attracted to. Or maybe I have it wrong here and transsexual is still in use to refer to... changing the gender of people you are attracted to, I guess?

Transsexual is an antiquated term, not unlike gender reassignment surgery or shemale, though that still appears in derogatory adult films.

 

[Raine]

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[Crystal]

Transexual is definitely a little of Column A, a lot of Column B. It fell out of use for a variety of reasons, not the least of which being that it's just too limiting a term. And counterproductive, since it can be confusing what exactly it's referring to since different contexts (casual vs medical, for example) are possible and people tend to use a lot of words interchangably. But like, it would not accurately reflect the nature of all the betweens and just carries negative connotations in society at large that folks would wish to distance themselves from. A lot of older people still use it though, through habit or whatever.

Yeah, the thankfully antiquated nature of the term is helping, as transgender replaces it, but you still get those people who insist on using that term, potentially through lack of understanding or pure ignorance.

And as Crystal said, not unlike the change to "gender affirming care" which is just more inclusive and, uh, accurate. Concepts like "chest feeding" or "person with womb" are similar, though... decidedly less easily adopted thanks to certain individuals.

Yeah, people REALLY hate chest feeding, and a lot of women are opposed to person with womb, as well. Unfortunate, but I suppose I understand the argument, cis women are being involuntarily dragged into the debate and given labels...must suck to have to live with labels attached to you, am I right? . Joking aside, I understand their hesitance to accept it, I just hope they'll remember that it's an inclusive term for trans men who are or can become pregnant.

 

[canadaguy]

And as Crystal said, not unlike the change to "gender affirming care" which is just more inclusive and, uh, accurate. Concepts like "chest feeding" or "person with womb" are similar, though... decidedly less easily adopted thanks to certain individuals.

So the public libraries in my city recently announced a free period product program. In their announcement they used the phrase "people who menstruate" and holy fuck did that set the bigots off.

 

[Raine]

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[Crystal]

So the public libraries in my city recently announced a free period product program. In their announcement they used the phrase "people who menstruate" and holy fuck did that set the bigots off.

Sadly, this is an all-too-common theme. People attempt to make terminology more inclusive and everyone who doesn't understand gets into a right state of upheaval and anger over it, in spite of the fact it genuinely doesn't impact their lives at all, it's just less demeaning to trans men.

I know, right? lol

I mean I'm not, like, necessarily super keen on those specific phrases perhaps - but I use 'em when appropriate and understand what they're about. I need folks to come up with snappy titles on the first attempt.

I'm not super keen on them, either, but until more trendy replacements come along it's what we're stuck with, lol. Breastfeeding implies trans men must have breasts, something they've fought their whole lives not to have, and to suggest only women have a womb implies that trans women have them, which we don't, and invalidates the womanhood of those who have had hysterectomies and no longer have or have use of a womb.

They first need to learn that trans men actually exist, unfortunately. Like... I'm pretty sure they think trans women are getting, like, womb transplants or some shit? Shattering our pelvic bones, mayhaps?

I'd do it

This is the depression talking: I would very much like to sit Joanne down and tell her exactly how many souls I would sacrifice to Baphomet to have the ability to become pregnant. To willingly sign up for the most painful thing in the world, per their usual diatribe.

Hon, you're a perfectly normal trans woman, we all wish we had the ability, the option. It's yet one more barrier that people can use to invalidate trans women's womanhood, one more wall we will never hurdle on the road to true equality. I'm not ashamed to admit there are times I actually dream of being able to lactate. Not because I'm desperate for wet clothes all the time, but because it is yet another experience denied to the trans woman. Is it possible through medication and induction? Yes, to an extent, I suppose. Anyway, I'd best stop this line of thought before I make myself seem anymore ridiculous

I am thoroughly unsurprised, sadly. At least they're consistent?

A for effort? Sorry, Canada -- Eh for effort?

 

[Mark]

I mean I'm not, like, necessarily super keen on those specific phrases perhaps - but I use 'em when appropriate and understand what they're about. I need folks to come up with snappy titles on the first attempt.

Interesting to read y’all’s take on this… because those are terms I just started hearing, and I’m not gonna lie, my knee-jerk reaction was “wait, what the fuck?” because it sounds so… sterile. And I don’t mean that in the “non-sexual function” kinda way… I mean that in the “holy shit, I don’t see trans folks claiming these horrible sounding generic ass labels”.

They first need to learn that trans men actually exist, unfortunately. Like... I'm pretty sure they think trans women are getting, like, womb transplants or some shit? Shattering our pelvic bones, mayhaps?

…I really, really hope you’re wrong about people being THAT dense, but I know you’re not.

I'm not super keen on them, either, but until more trendy replacements come along it's what we're stuck with, lol. Breastfeeding implies trans men must have breasts, something they've fought their whole lives not to have, and to suggest only women have a womb implies that trans women have them, which we don't, and invalidates the womanhood of those who have had hysterectomies and no longer have or have use of a womb.

The only alternative is to use the terms as applicable, I suppose? You call yourself what you want to, you refer to people as they want to be, and so on.

A for effort? Sorry, Canada -- Eh for effort?

I ain’t dealing with you.

 

[Raine]

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[Crystal]

Interesting to read y’all’s take on this… because those are terms I just started hearing, and I’m not gonna lie, my knee-jerk reaction was “wait, what the fuck?” because it sounds so… sterile. And I don’t mean that in the “non-sexual function” kinda way… I mean that in the “holy shit, I don’t see trans folks claiming these horrible sounding generic ass labels”.

Unfortunately we aren't on the naming committees, so we roll with what we're given.

…I really, really hope you’re wrong about people being THAT dense, but I know you’re not.

...yeah...

The only alternative is to use the terms as applicable, I suppose? You call yourself what you want to, you refer to people as they want to be, and so on.

I suppose, but that breeds inconsistency and the misunderstanding cycle continues.

I ain’t dealing with you.

It's ok, hon, no one does

Sorry gents, the ladies are going to be all wistful and shit for a spell talking about boobies and babies. Blame science. Or God, I don't know.

AHHHH. I'd really, really want to... like, so much. But also, I don't like pain? I'd be so torn. "Wait she's not worried about the ethical impli--" NO I DON'T CARE SLAP IT THE FUCK IN THERE. Maybe experimenting with drugs would be the ticket. In another timeline, perhaps.

Yeah, I'm not big on pain, either, but I'll take the blows to experience things like that.

Oh I know. If I ever find myself in the position, and I do pray that I don't, I'll probably break down in tears instead of giving them the what-for they deserve. But like the entire time they're describing the horrors and burdens of womanhood, I'm just jacknicholson.gif-ing it up, and then they have to be mean about it and finish with "and you can't." Like... rude. Hurtful. Totally and absolutely uncalled for. I don't dangle Nutella in front of them and then tell them they can't have any!

Yeah, I hate that viewpoint, as well. We know what we can't have, shut up! Granted, I also never thought that I'd have to deal with certainly monthly issues...that was a bit of a slap in the face when that started. I envy the trans women that don't deal with that, lol.

...I mean they can't it's mine, but they can go buy their own. But I ain't over here teasing them with a bad good time, either.

Oh look how lucky we are to have this disgusting appendage that people who know nothing about us obsess over and use to define us. But guess what, ladies, YOU can't have that.

Shame is for people not in this thread. Invariably we're going to get asked something at some point and I'm just going to let it fly anyway, so why stop here? There may be a point where it's time to stop, but I'mma slap that clock and tell it to shut the fuck up, Francis!

I'm shocked those questions haven't come yet. Ya' know, how big are...how small is...fully expected those. Damn these people and their restraint.

...What was I, oh, right. Right.

I totally went down the rabbit hole on Google and YouTube and whatnot a couple times. Have made inquiries! I have a niece and a nephew, which means future grand-nieces and nephews, and I will be prepared for disaster situations! And I guess theoretically we could adopt a baby ourselves, although we're kind of on the older side and haven't really had that talk yet. ...Also because I'm morbidly curious by nature and even if future babies weren't a consideration, I'd still have done it. For Science!

Same boat here, minus the significant other. But for science, 100%!

So apparently some cis men can just lactate naturally? Because of some sort of benign tumor/growth? You'd think with all my hormonal imbalances pre- and post-puberty maybe I'd have gotten lucky, but no. "Is she actually wishing she ha--" I DON'T REMEMBER THAT BEING A QUESTION, FRANCIS. Still, I absolutely bought two medical-grade pumps. One of the ones you wear inside the special bras, and one where you just kinda hold it. Did the whole every 3~4 hour thing, had... eventually had, I don't know, some sort of discharge, but definitely not the desired milk. Also very, very miniscule amount. Happened a couple times, actually. Will pursue more later for sure because nature also can't tease me with a good time (and many potentially embarrassing days at work thereafter!) and think I'll leave it be.

That's where progesterone helps, honestly. Well, that an other areas, but it can play a factor there. I've heard of trans women using pumps for growth, too...I don't know that such a method would work, at least not beyond some temporary gains that would, inevitably, results in droopy tatas afterwards from stretching the skin without the underlying tissue to fill in the space. Apparently it works for some, though...apparently...

I have no idea what I'm on about sometimes. But yes, I totally understand.

 

[Raine]

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[Mark]

Definitely can't imagine it was a trans person coming up with the labels. Likely just a board of medical professionals making recommendations, that being passed through a bunch of lawyers. The usual.

Alright, so I feel less like I could be reading that wrong. I’m not expecting some flamboyant and colorful term by any means… but that shit just sounded insulting all the way around to me.

People are happy to use them for now just to get the ball rolling. Will do the snappy later, most likely.

I get that… if there HAS to be a label, may as well be the most generic and least-offensive possible… but I can’t wait for y’all to come up with something better than what the board decided. That shit is painfully formal.

I really, really wish people that dense didn't think they had to tell us the latest talking points coming out of their cult. Alas, they do... every day...

I'm honestly far enough removed that it's still mostly amusing. I know a lot of people aren't that lucky though, either through the places they live or the communities they try and retain on Twitter, Facebook, etc.

Oh, but you already know it ain’t a cult unless there’s recruitment and propaganda. All it’ll take is one “converted” trans person for them to latch on to and you’ll hear a whole new mess of shit. Remember the “pray the gay away” thing that was real big in the 90’s? From what I learned, that whole conversion therapy bullshit was based off of ONE individual who was “converted” and that church ran with the concept.

That's actually what they do, yeah. Inclusive phrasing in like promotional material, and then when talking with you ask for preferences and roll with it. But... well, the reactionaries don't actually go to these places, so the follow-up isn't even a possibility.

I still can’t wrap my head around the resistance to address y’all as you’d prefer… I liken it to “Mr.” I don’t like feeling old, don’t call me Mr. The “yes, sir” thing I’m cool with. I use “yes sir/ma’am” myself when speaking to people formally. It’s not a complicated concept. I’m as plain of a straight guy as it gets and it doesn’t make me uncomfortable or feel some kinda way… it has to be some kind of insecurity on their behalf.

 

[Crystal]

but I can’t wait for y’all to come up with something better than what the board decided. That shit is painfully formal.

Milk on the move?

Baby maker?

All it’ll take is one “converted” trans person for them to latch on to and you’ll hear a whole new mess of shit. Remember the “pray the gay away” thing that was real big in the 90’s? From what I learned, that whole conversion therapy bullshit was based off of ONE individual who was “converted” and that church ran with the concept.

Oh that's already happening -- Buck Angel and several others.

Conversion therapy is disgusting and that it still exists is deplorable.

I still can’t wrap my head around the resistance to address y’all as you’d prefer… I liken it to “Mr.” I don’t like feeling old, don’t call me Mr. The “yes, sir” thing I’m cool with. I use “yes sir/ma’am” myself when speaking to people formally. It’s not a complicated concept. I’m as plain of a straight guy as it gets and it doesn’t make me uncomfortable or feel some kinda way… it has to be some kind of insecurity on their behalf.

It's 100% their own insecurities being forced onto others. The old adage "methinks thou doth protest too much" comes to mind.

 

[Mark]

Milk on the move?

Baby maker?

Still ain’t dealing with you. You’re on a fucking roll tonight.

Oh that's already happening -- Buck Angel and several others.

For fucks sake… leave it to my semi-sarcasm to actually be right.

Conversion therapy is disgusting and that it still exists is deplorable.

Agreed. I can’t imagine the emotional and psychological damage places like that inflict.

It's 100% their own insecurities being forced onto others. The old adage "methinks thou doth protest too much" comes to mind.

Which is bullshit. Most of the dudes I know that don’t like trans people or talk shit about them can’t even get a woman, if I’m being honest. They’re bitter in general, so they lash out.

 

[Crystal]

Still ain’t dealing with you. You’re on a fucking roll tonight.

For fucks sake… leave it to my semi-sarcasm to actually be right.

Oh it's all out there, for sure.

Agreed. I can’t imagine the emotional and psychological damage places like that inflict.

It's torture, plain and simple.

Which is bullshit. Most of the dudes I know that don’t like trans people or talk shit about them can’t even get a woman, if I’m being honest. They’re bitter in general, so they lash out.

Yeah, that or they're harbouring their own secrets. How many anti-gay advocates have been caught in the act? Quite a few

 

[Raine]

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[Crystal]

Some features certainly lack adequate warnings.

They do!! I still wouldn't take back what's happened, but damn do I wish I'd known what I was in for there! Serves me right, though, I signed up for the experience, I'm damn well getting it

It's a mixed bag, honestly. Like, obviously, everything that gets the experience closer to "normal" is great - but also, uh, I feel like women are simultaneously warning and complaining.

Oh absolutely. You always think people blow things out of proportion until you realize that...no...this sucks!!

I really, really can't with the internet recently. All those "never, ever search this phrase" terms, and obsessing on both ends of the meter... woof.

Once upon a time a young boy had a thought: "This thing is fucking annoying, is there a way it can not do this and go back to how it was before?"

Prophet, I tells ya.

I hear you. The number of times I've caught someone Googling can my outie become an innie? ...what? You've never caught people googling belly button questions?

Pfft, yes.

It'll happen, just need the walls broken down a little more

So I've heard, yeah. I'm always wary of things like the pump just because it's sort of impossible to have a control, y'know? Like "X = Y" might still have occurred with or without the external factor, and it's basically impossible to tell what's doing what. Which, I mean, reasonable things that may help are probably fine to throw in just because. Especially if it's a concern and the person is trying to maximize gains or whatever.

Yeah, it's a risk one way or the other. I'm interested in progesterone because it can help in certain areas, but one of those areas is one I definitely don't particularly need or want more help in.

I'm not particularly hurting for more, thankfully? I mean... maybe a little more would be nice for after slimming down some more... but... slippery slope! lol

Believe me, I understand. I'm barely squeezing into a DD cup right now...

I mean, it could be worse too - "mammary suckling" is certainly more colorful, and still technically accurate and medically sound. But.

I'm sure the trial and error period will be delightful.

inb4 knocker nourishment becomes the new name.

Like Crystal said they definitely already exist, but also like the Supreme Court showed - sometimes you don't even need a real one to score a goal, y'know? And that's the real scary thing. All it takes is one story to take hold and take off, and we're off to the fuckin' races.

Ugh, truth! Bigoted politicians like MTG have built their careers on those fake stories.

In addition to Buck Angel, there's people like Blaire White - passing trans women that use their privilege to grift and carry water for all the dumb fuck arguments - and accidentally useful idiots like Natalie Wynn/ContraPoints that may mean well but have blind spots (like with Enbies) that end up propagating hate and misinformation. There's no such thing as a perfect ally, or a perfect person, and every single thing that a person of note gets wrong is given an outsourced level of publicity.

So true! The ones that try to be helpful and push things so much further backwards, ugh. If they only knew!

It's just pettiness and hatred, really. For all the talk of freedom of speech and expression, they just want it to apply to them and only them. That's why if you ask them to do anything at all they're not 100% on board with it's censorship, but if people do things they don't like it's being a sheep or being part of an "Agenda" or something.

OMG, you can't make me do something sensible! How dare you!

The killer is that they really can't always tell like they say they can, anyway. So they've absolutely used the "wrong" (right) pronouns on people without being aware of it. lol

Truth! If Keffals hadn't outed herself she'd have been a perfectly passable woman. Some trans women get SOOO lucky with how their transition turns out...bitches.

 

[Mark]

Yeah, that or they're harbouring their own secrets. How many anti-gay advocates have been caught in the act? Quite a few

SO many, and it’s always hilarious. They COULD have joined the club. Y’all are a welcoming and hospitable bunch… I’ve been to a Pride even with my ex and her sister. I didn’t catch the gay. I’m good. Y’all had some good street food AND edibles. I wouldn’t go with the cock lollipop edibles, but I definitely had some pussy lip gummies.

Pfft, yes.

I don’t see y’all asking about what’s in my pants. Same principle. This is what equality should be.

I mean, it could be worse too - "mammary suckling" is certainly more colorful, and still technically accurate and medically sound. But.

You two are on a fucking roll with the comedy routine tonight.

I'm sure the trial and error period will be delightful.

I mean… it’s gotta be better than the old days, at least, right?

Like Crystal said they definitely already exist, but also like the Supreme Court showed - sometimes you don't even need a real one to score a goal, y'know? And that's the real scary thing. All it takes is one story to take hold and take off, and we're off to the fuckin' races.

That seems to be the case with so much these days, unfortunately…

In addition to Buck Angel, there's people like Blaire White - passing trans women that use their privilege to grift and carry water for all the dumb fuck arguments - and accidentally useful idiots like Natalie Wynn/ContraPoints that may mean well but have blind spots (like with Enbies) that end up propagating hate and misinformation. There's no such thing as a perfect ally, or a perfect person, and every single thing that a person of note gets wrong is given an outsourced level of publicity.

I’m unfamiliar with those people… are you telling me that they’re actually using their position in the trans community to capitalize on it for personal gain? Damn… guess y’all ain’t so different from everyone else after all.

All kidding aside… that’s also disgusting if I’m understanding that correctly, but, as evident by your post… y’all do an excellent job of taking out your own trash. Other groups should take note.

It's just pettiness and hatred, really. For all the talk of freedom of speech and expression, they just want it to apply to them and only them. That's why if you ask them to do anything at all they're not 100% on board with it's censorship, but if people do things they don't like it's being a sheep or being part of an "Agenda" or something.

Precisely. Couldn’t have said it better.

The killer is that they really can't always tell like they say they can, anyway. So they've absolutely used the "wrong" (right) pronouns on people without being aware of it. lol

I’ll admit, I’ve made mistakes addressing people in that respect. ESPECIALLY early on in my repo career when the only interactions with gay/lesbian/trans people were the ones I grew up with… and those folks get the “dude” treatment like EVERYONE does from me. I’ve met some closely passing trans women, and some trans men who were taller and more athletically built than me… and I’ve had testosterone coursing through my body for decades.

 

[Crystal]

SO many, and it’s always hilarious. They COULD have joined the club. Y’all are a welcoming and hospitable bunch… I’ve been to a Pride even with my ex and her sister. I didn’t catch the gay. I’m good. Y’all had some good street food AND edibles. I wouldn’t go with the cock lollipop edibles, but I definitely had some pussy lip gummies.

We'll still accept them, that's the shitty thing. They can treat us like garbage because they're in denial, but we still bring them into the fold when they finally stop being petty and start embracing their reality.

I don’t see y’all asking about what’s in my pants. Same principle. This is what equality should be.

...but I don't judge you based on what's in there, nor do I particularly want to know. It seems to be the primary attraction for any trans person, however.

You two are on a fucking roll with the comedy routine tonight.

I mean… it’s gotta be better than the old days, at least, right?

Marginally...

I’ll admit, I’ve made mistakes addressing people in that respect. ESPECIALLY early on in my repo career when the only interactions with gay/lesbian/trans people were the ones I grew up with… and those folks get the “dude” treatment like EVERYONE does from me. I’ve met some closely passing trans women, and some trans men who were taller and more athletically built than me… and I’ve had testosterone coursing through my body for decades.

Hey, trans dudes are dudes, they'll get BUFF if it's in their genes.

 

[Mark]

We'll still accept them, that's the shitty thing. They can treat us like garbage because they're in denial, but we still bring them into the fold when they finally stop being petty and start embracing their reality.

And THAT is what separates decent people from pieces of shit, and here you think you’re a terrible person.

...but I don't judge you based on what's in there, nor do I particularly want to know. It seems to be the primary attraction for any trans person, however.

Which I find is weird… it’s like those comedy bits where one dude catches another dude looking at his genitals at a urinal and gives a funny look when caught. Why’s dude giving the funny look? He’s the one checking out someone else’s junk.

Marginally...

Hey, trans dudes are dudes, they'll get BUFF if it's in their genes.

…and I’m getting too old to worry about being ripped, so they can have it if they work for it.

 

[Crystal]

And THAT is what separates decent people from pieces of shit, and here you think you’re a terrible person.

I am a terrible person, that hasn't changed.

Which I find is weird… it’s like those comedy bits where one dude catches another dude looking at his genitals at a urinal and gives a funny look when caught. Why’s dude giving the funny look? He’s the one checking out someone else’s junk.

Right?! Why are we the ones judged because everyone else wants to see our bits and pieces? THEY'RE the weird ones.

…and I’m getting too old to worry about being ripped, so they can have it if they work for it.

Damn right!

 

[Raine]

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[Mark]

That's fair, that's fair. You'll have to excuse Crystal though, she's a little eager!

...And y'all have yet to realize I'm a bad influence.

I’m just speaking on principle, though. If we’re sitting around having a conversation about genitalia, that’s one thing, but for me or anyone else to explicitly ask out of the blue? Inappropriate. It’s no different than asking an inappropriate question out of context to anyone else. That’s *part* of the reason why I’d think y’all feel like people look at y’all like freak shows, because what’s inappropriate to say or ask anyone else sparks curiosity and bewilderment towards trans folks. I’d even go as far as to call it unwanted attention, which in itself crosses a line.

It can't get too much worse at least, surely? Though I do find myself surprised sometimes still...

Yeah, you’re right, but… there are a lot more people on your side now than ever before. Even someone on the outside like me can see that, so I’d imagine that the extra support equates for something.

The size of the group help, for sure. Unfortunately, for the most part, once they take on the grift their audience tends to be exclusively those outside the LGBT sphere. Which... I mean I suppose that can have benefits too. Like say Fox News had a pretty blonde trans woman as one of their talking heads? Objectively not great, but also, maybe that would help normalize trans people just existing? Probably wishful thinking, but who knows.

I think you’re being too optimistic for *that* particular crowd. They haven’t even gotten over the gay frogs yet…

Not signing up for it, at any rate.

Naaah, you don’t want that dirty money.

Yup! Which not to beat a dead horse on the trans athlete thing, but - focusing exclusively on trans women is hilarious for this very reason. It's like they've completely overlooked the glaring fact that the bills they want to push through will obligate these very same trans men to use the women's restrooms. I'm thinking this will have negative reactions.

I still don’t get the bathroom thing, but I’m afraid that we’re gonna get to a point where we either have individual bathrooms, one giant clusterfuck of a bathroom, or… my biggest concern… cameras in the open areas of public bathrooms to pacify the idiots that think trans people are the only ones they gotta watch out for in public bathrooms.

 

[Crystal]

The extra hormonal kick will always worry me, of course, but if it gets recommended I'll give it a go at least. So far so good after all, right? And I really do want... certain things to happen...

I hear you on both points

Between 40DD/42D right now. I think realistically 36 is as far down as I can get on the band - I have, like, a 6 1/2 foot wingspan it's fucking obnoxious - and I'm always hemming and hawing about whether they look too small or mostly right as-is. Not anywhere near time to start fretting, but yeah. ... LOOK, GENTLEMEN, YOU WON'T UNDERSTAND BUT I MEASURE A LOT OF PIECES CONSTANTLY. It's... it's kind of how this works... lol

Yeah, I'm a 44 or 46 band commonly, and I HATE it! Stupid man frame. Oh well, work with what you've got, I guess....I guess...meh. And yeah, the measuring is DEFINITELY a part of this. Constantly

Another reason I'm glad I don't really follow social media.

Social media...eww.

I'm happy for them, truly! I sorta get the feeling that even if I knew then what I know now, though, it just wasn't in the cards. And I'm okay with that most days, but I would also not be super opposed to having, let's say, 44 billion dollars to piss away on pet projects.

I had the chance to start at 18...I should have...I regret that, but ah well.

That's fair, that's fair. You'll have to excuse Crystal though, she's a little eager!

Guilty!!

...And y'all have yet to realize I'm a bad influence.

Nah, an encouraging personality

It can't get too much worse at least, surely? Though I do find myself surprised sometimes still...


The size of the group help, for sure. Unfortunately, for the most part, once they take on the grift their audience tends to be exclusively those outside the LGBT sphere. Which... I mean I suppose that can have benefits too. Like say Fox News had a pretty blonde trans woman as one of their talking heads? Objectively not great, but also, maybe that would help normalize trans people just existing? Probably wishful thinking, but who knows.

I long for the day the next news report about a trans person is just "hey, I'm Rachel, I'm trans, and I'm just eating a cookie! Back to you, Tom and Tammy!"

Yup! Which not to beat a dead horse on the trans athlete thing, but - focusing exclusively on trans women is hilarious for this very reason. It's like they've completely overlooked the glaring fact that the bills they want to push through will obligate these very same trans men to use the women's restrooms. I'm thinking this will have negative reactions.

Nah, they want big beefy dudes in the women's restroom instead of trans women. Because logic!

Actually - it is kind of funny that all of GWF's openly trans women so far are (mostly?) lesbians.

That's purely coincidental, if anyone was curious. Anecdotally it seems fairly uncommon to not be straight, same as with cisgender folk.

Yeah, the dude thing...never really worked for me, lol. I'm into my ladies, can't help it

 

[Raine]

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[Crystal]

Oh, absolutely! I mean, obviously, it's the same as with cis women - sometimes we're feeling good and being noticed (in a non-creepy way!) wouldn't be so bad. But mostly it's just dressing for ourselves, for the weather, just going about our lives and getting called out or cat called or whatever is, at best, jarring and uncomfortable. At worst, fucking terrifying.

(in my case, just plain don't notice me, at all!!)

It's a little different here since ostensibly the discussion is on our terms and we're trying to make everyone comfortable. Plus, y'know, the whole internet forum thing. But like those are very much base-level curiosity questions and I'm not opposed to them from an academic standpoint at least. I'm sure age and a lot of us being in committed relationships also helps compared to the usual social media candidates.

^Truth

Totally. At minimum having inclusive, if ham-fisted, signage just makes it easier to tell where we're (more) welcome and likely to engage with people that better understand our unique challenges. Like I wouldn't think many doctors care so deeply that they'd refuse to take on a trans patient, but also there aren't that many actually well-versed either. Especially in more conservative-leaning or rural places. It doesn't have to be bigoted at all, they simply aren't in a location where there's historically been a lot of diversity - and your doctor trying to Google-fu their way through adjusting their practices may not yield the best results.

This is totally true, though sadly there are doctors who do indeed reject patients for being trans who could help if they wanted. Endo's and whatnot. Been down that path here in Phoenix...and yeah, been turned away by a few doctors for not knowing how to deal with trans patients, which is totally understandable.

I mean the latter and physical guards doing inspections are the only answers to this level of hysteria-fueled paranoia. And those, very obviously, aren't answers at all! Like how many security guards are actually going to want to take up the responsibility of feeling up every woman that wants to go take a damn piss?

I shudder to think of the person that would volunteer for such a position.

At some point it's just easier to shut down all public restrooms. Maybe throw a couple lines of porta-potties out back or something and call it a day. It's ultimately the responsibility of individual businesses/establishments to choose an option, after all, and that's probably the least expensive and least likely to get them sued.

Nah, we're all just going to have to adapt to wearing diapers while the cis folks go tinkle.

Yup, yup. It doesn't help that the larger chest circumference throws off the calculations, so getting the right size at first was a bit of a hassle. Especially doing it through online retailers, because I was far too chickenshit to walk into a store. Though I mean, even if I had, my experiences buying men's clothing is that the off-the-rack fits don't work particularly well anyway - if they even have the correct sizes available. That whole big and tall thing.

Same issue here, I prefer a longer length t-shirt because what you can find off the rack is not a good fit for my body type, so I go to big and tall for the XLT's Nothing looks good on me, at all, lol, one day I'll resign myself to a toga or something .

Bras, though, hell no! I will never go into a store for one. I don't want to make anyone uncomfortable and I don't want to feel uncomfortable, either.

The fact that I still generally wear baggy t-shirts and sweatpants around the house would probably blow the minds of people like Joanne. Like, no, I am in fact not constantly parading around in full make up, wearing lingerie and skirts and dresses with lace and frill everywhere! This isn't Rocky Horror Picture Show, y'know?

Shit, you're not always in ball gowns and lingerie?!? Fuck, I'm doing trans wrong...

lol, I wear feminine clothing when I'm alone and feeling up for it. The rest of the time it's baggy shirts and loose trousers/pants. No comment on what goes underneath...lol. I will say, though, when you have to spend your time concealing things from a bigoted family member, and there are things to conceal...ahem...it's really hard!! Damn things have tried their best to out me, thank fuck for sports bras!

 

[Raine]

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[Crystal]

Mmhm. But like, even the worst and most blatant troglodyte has to eventually grow tired of it or otherwise nope out when it comes to literal children or the elderly. So if it happens, and it'll most likely end up occurring in Florida if anywhere because of a certain dipshit, I would suspect it to end up being security theater at best.

I'm just not going to go to a public restroom ever again. I already avoid them like the plague, I'm not dealing with this crap just because I need to take a piss. If we ever reach a point that we're not some sideshow and we can just be treated like the women we are, biologically disadvantaged or not, then sure, I'll partake. But to be at a point where thoughts like this aren't just passing flings but actual concerns...it's awful.

Still uncomfortable as fuck and absolutely insane that such an outcome is not only possible, but likely. And for something that is arguably not even a winning political strategy as a bunch of theoreticals.

C'est la vie, right? If it looks like an it, put the creature on show.

Understandable lol

I have nicer clothing, but I still look in the mirror wearing a lot of it and... I mean I can see myself, and that alone is more than enough to feel comfort, but still too much of that nagging "honey, you look like a cross-dresser" thought. And then I spiral with the nitpicking! For now. It'll get better. Probably.

I long for the day I can see myself in the mirror. I still see a man and the eyes are still just pain. I'm sure it'll be a thought in my head forever, that I'll never pass, never feel at ease, and just struggle to cope. I see my trans sisters transitioning and looking so good and I'm over the moon for them, but I'm also envious, because I'll never know that joy. At least I get to feel slightly more at home the longer I'm removed from the days of raging testosterone. Fuck that stuff.

Definitely not an ideal situation, to be sure. Gotta work with the hand you're dealt and do what you feel is right, but my heart goes out to you!

I still get me time, at least, so for a small window of the day Crystal is free, truly free. One day it will be a more permanent situation.

And you know where we are whenever you need a sounding board.

Yet another reason I'm glad we started this little GWF experiment.

 

[Raine]

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[Crystal]

Oh, yeah, abso-fuckin'-lutely! I've always avoided them, and will continue to avoid them despite living in a sapphire blue state. I figure everyone's just going to be more comfortable that way, honestly me most of all 'cause I'm not-really-but-kind-of a germaphobe lol, and worst-case scenario there's usually an option somewhere around that's a single occupant bathroom vs an open one with stalls.

Yeah, those single occupant bathrooms are much better! They're still not exactly ideal, but they're a LOT better than the usual option.

It's definitely one step at a time, for sure. Fully being free from the creeping thoughts and nagging feelings may not be possible, but the more peace you find the less frequently they'll crop up! I'm hopeful that once your situation improves you'll have more time, and more freedom, to specifically go looking for the good things - the right angles, the possibilities as a work-in-progress - and find more peace through that.

Aww, you phrase it so perfectly!

And, hey, just think - once we're all old and wrinkly it won't make a difference anyway. Equality through being over the hill, fuck yes! Maybe even lose a little of the height along the way as everything gives out.

Sub six-foot...please!!!

Yeah, by the time my boobs are dragging on the floor I flat out won't care anymore about people staring at me, me feeling like an absolute monster and so on

 

[Foxy]

There are some names that could be recognized as either sex so I would imagine if a trans person was stuck with an 'androgynous' legal name, a name like Pat or Chris for example, it would be less painful to have on legal documents. OTOH, someone born with the name Chastity would have a difficult time being legally known by that name when they look like the fully transitioned Chaz Bono.

 

[Crystal]

There are some names that could be recognized as either sex so I would imagine if a trans person was stuck with an 'androgynous' legal name, a name like Pat or Chris for example, it would be less painful to have on legal documents. OTOH, someone born with the name Chastity would have a difficult time being legally known by that name when they look like the fully transitioned Chaz Bono.

As someone with one of those first groups of names, it's not ideal to read or write on official documents, but I suppose it is better than other alternatives

 

[Crystal]

Random trans fact of the moment, because it's irritating the shit out of me...overly sensitive nipples suck! That is all.

 

[Raine]

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[Crystal]

See I would offer you a hug but that may make it worse.

I'd take it, even like this. That whole time of the month business...ugh...

The sobriety nipple thread raised questions I still don't have answers for.

lol, I'll tackle just about any question if I can, sore nips and all

 

[Foxy]

I wonder if trans people eventually go through menopause or if they stay on an even dosage of estrogen for life? I'll tell you this as a cis woman, menopause is liberating!

 

[Crystal]

I wonder if trans people eventually go through menopause or if they stay on an even dosage of estrogen for life? I'll tell you this as a cis woman, menopause is liberating!

That's something I am curious about, as well. Would be interesting to find out, given I definitely didn't expect the monthly aspect at all...

 

[Foxy]

You're lucky you started the cycle later in life @Crystal, trust me. You dodged decades of pain/discomfort. I know at first it's very validating and wondrous for a person in transition to experience the physical changes females go through, but I'm sure it gets old pretty quick. It's definitely not the plus side of being a woman. The boobs, curves and soft skin is the good part.

 

[Crystal]

You're lucky you started the cycle later in life @Crystal, trust me. You dodged decades of pain/discomfort. I know at first it's very validating and wondrous for a person in transition to experience the physical changes females go through, but I'm sure it gets old pretty quick. It's definitely not the plus side of being a woman. The boobs, curves and soft skin is the good part.

Oh it got old after the first time, lol. Now it's the same pain in the ass for me as everyone else, just minus one part.

 

[Raine]

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[Crystal]

A story for a different time (and different thread!), but I'm fairly sure it's not something I'll experience for better or worse.

Kind of hoping it doesn't happen at all, but it is a part of the process, so...

 

[Kat]

I’m all for people doing what they wanna do, but the labels have BEEN outta hand for a long time. Labels create division, not unison.

Mmm, I'm not sure I agree with this. Yes, of course, don't get mad if someone doesn't know your niche label/flag, but I can see how having the label and flag for an identity that otherwise goes completely unacknowledged can be empowering.

It's not the same thing as a gender identity, but for me, I (not intentionally) only dated men for a long time even though I always knew I wasn't straight and felt like I was bi. Since I only dated men, everyone around me (very reasonably) assumed I was straight. They never explicitly said so, but I knew they did, because it's just what people default to. It's not like it made any real difference or mattered at all, but it still wore on me more and more over the years.

I could see something similar happening to someone who mostly identifies as a woman and presents closely enough that people assume she is a woman but doesn't quite feel that she is a woman. It's not necessarily about needing to feel special or unique, but more about not feeling like you're denying a part of yourself or pretending to be something you're not.

I'm always wary of things like the pump just because it's sort of impossible to have a control, y'know? Like "X = Y" might still have occurred with or without the external factor, and it's basically impossible to tell what's doing what.

Well technically you have two titties, so you could have a control...

I still don’t get the bathroom thing, but I’m afraid that we’re gonna get to a point where we either have individual bathrooms, one giant clusterfuck of a bathroom

I have always fucking hated gendered bathrooms. It's so stupid. Just why. Bathroom stalls should be private enough that it doesn't matter who else is in the general room. GET RID OF THEM ALREADY. THERE'S NO GOOD REASON FOR IT. What do I care if a dude is washing his hands at the sink next to me? I don't!

I love those places that have non gendered bathrooms and all the stalls have full walls and doors with no gaps. Every bathroom should be like that!

I have to admit, making life easier for people who are trans or NB is not my main motivation for this stance, but it does happen to have the virtue of accomplishing that, too.

Bras, though, hell no! I will never go into a store for one. I don't want to make anyone uncomfortable and I don't want to feel uncomfortable, either.

Aww, I hope one day that changes. It's totally possible for you to go bra shopping without making other people uncomfortable. Once you get back into a job that pays decently and you can afford their overpriced stuff, maybe try Victoria's Secret. I know it sounds crazy given what their marketing used to be like, but they've gotten very inclusive lately. I went bra shopping with my gf (who is trans and feels like it's obvious) there the other day, and nobody so much as batted an eye. And their sizes go up pretty large, too.

 

[Crystal]

Aww, I hope one day that changes. It's totally possible for you to go bra shopping without making other people uncomfortable. Once you get back into a job that pays decently and you can afford their overpriced stuff, maybe try Victoria's Secret. I know it sounds crazy given what their marketing used to be like, but they've gotten very inclusive lately. I went bra shopping with my gf (who is trans and feels like it's obvious) there the other day, and nobody so much as batted an eye. And their sizes go up pretty large, too.

Maybe if I had a supportive girlfriend it would be different, she could shove me in there and it wouldn't be as bad as I think it will be. Social anxiety being what it is I already feel on display any time I step out of the house, it gets worse the further along this road I get because I have a very bad case of imposter syndrome. I know what I am, I know what I look like and I hate it. So the thought of going into exclusively female spaces makes me nervous because I feel like I cannot and will not fit in. Hilarious in context because I'm probably more feminine than most [insert designated label for biological female here, since cis is becoming so controversial for some reason], in spite of my disgusting huge male frame and voice.

 

[Kat]

Maybe if I had a supportive girlfriend it would be different, she could shove me in there and it wouldn't be as bad as I think it will be. Social anxiety being what it is I already feel on display any time I step out of the house, it gets worse the further along this road I get because I have a very bad case of imposter syndrome. I know what I am, I know what I look like and I hate it. So the thought of going into exclusively female spaces makes me nervous because I feel like I cannot and will not fit in. Hilarious in context because I'm probably more feminine than most [insert designated label for biological female here, since cis is becoming so controversial for some reason], in spite of my disgusting huge male frame and voice.

I understand why it'd make you uncomfortable, and I'm not trying to push you to do anything you don't want to do. I'm just saying if you do decide it's something you want to do, don't let the idea of other people being scandalized stop you. There are places you can go where that won't happen.

I've also been shopping in there with men, and nobody cared about that either, in case that helps any. Meaning it's just a store, you don't have to "fit in", there are no rules about who can and can't go shopping there.

 

[Crystal]

I understand why it'd make you uncomfortable, and I'm not trying to push you to do anything you don't want to do. I'm just saying if you do decide it's something you want to do, don't let the idea of other people being scandalized stop you. There are places you can go where that won't happen.

I've also been shopping in there with men, and nobody cared about that either, in case that helps any. Meaning it's just a store, you don't have to "fit in", there are no rules about who can and can't go shopping there.

First of all your girlfriend is so lucky to have you in her life. Pretty obvious that you have that personality that makes her feel so much more secure in herself because you are there to support her.

If I feel someone is even remotely uncomfortable with me being there, I won't be there, lol. It makes me feel so horrible for anyone to feel uncomfortable because of me. One day that might change, but for now it's the reality of being me, I'm afraid.

 

[shortkut]

If I feel someone is even remotely uncomfortable with me being there, I won't be there, lol. It makes me feel so horrible for anyone to feel uncomfortable because of me. One day that might change, but for now it's the reality of being me, I'm afraid.

Legit question, not trying to convince you of anything:

Why is it preferred for you to go out of your way to avoid possibly making someone uncomfortable even if that makes you uncomfortable ?

 

[Kat]

First of all your girlfriend is so lucky to have you in her life. Pretty obvious that you have that personality that makes her feel so much more secure in herself because you are there to support her.

If I feel someone is even remotely uncomfortable with me being there, I won't be there, lol. It makes me feel so horrible for anyone to feel uncomfortable because of me. One day that might change, but for now it's the reality of being me, I'm afraid.

That's sweet, thank you. You may be surprised to hear I was the more uncomfortable one. I'm all standing there in front of a wall with a dozen different kinds of bras that all look the same to me, and she's all "hey try on this mesh bra with a collar!"

I totally understand where you're coming from and am not trying to change your feelings, but imo someone being uncomfortable just because a person is harmlessly existing near them is firmly a them problem.