Aftercare

[VashTheStampede]

I understand the argument for it, but my opinion remains that the game starting with a kill is the worst thing about it.  ESPECIALLY when there's no necromancer role.

Signing up to play a game and then not being able to participate fucking sucks.

 

[Jon]

Following up on this, in a game where the wolves realize there is an Instigator they obviously have a tremendous advantage. They have 4 members to the Instigators 3, and they have the ability to kill whereas the Instigator does not.

I don't necessarily agree with this... I think the instigator puts the wolf team as a significant DISadvantage, and we saw it this game. And there were technically 5 wolves. It states explicitly the instigated cannot win with their original teams, so unlike Cupid, the instigated are ACTIVELY working against the teams they are assigned. There is no incentive to play along with them, and they know the instigator so there is no need to hide info from the instigator. That means the instigator knows who EVERYONE is from day one, and when it's someone like TD, he can formulate a plan and manipulate the wolf kill to his advantage.

We saw precisely this. You don't think Kat and Jump took advice on who to kill from Kut? And you don't think TD was making suggestions on who to go for? And even if not, instigator learns the kill target before anyone else and can plan around it.

The instigators are at an EXTREME advantage unless both the town and the wolves play counter intuitively and work together to identify and kill that team first. Telling the wolves there is a cupid/investigator gives them an unfair advantage, investigator more so, because then they KNOW one of them is working against them.

THIS is one of the prime reasons, that when I play, my first goal is usually to identify the SK and wildcard, because THAT dictates how the game is going to go.

My two cents.

 

[Zell 17]

I don't necessarily agree with this... I think the instigator puts the wolf team as a significant DISadvantage, and we saw it this game. And there were technically 5 wolves. It states explicitly the instigated cannot win with their original teams, so unlike Cupid, the instigated are ACTIVELY working against the teams they are assigned. There is no incentive to play along with them, and they know the instigator so there is no need to hide info from the instigator. That means the instigator knows who EVERYONE is from day one, and when it's someone like TD, he can formulate a plan and manipulate the wolf kill to his advantage.

We saw precisely this. You don't think Kat and Jump took advice on who to kill from Kut? And you don't think TD was making suggestions on who to go for? And even if not, instigator learns the kill target before anyone else and can plan around it.

The instigators are at an EXTREME advantage unless both the town and the wolves play counter intuitively and work together to identify and kill that team first. Telling the wolves there is a cupid/investigator gives them an unfair advantage, investigator more so, because then they KNOW one of them is working against them.

THIS is one of the prime reasons, that when I play, my first goal is usually to identify the SK and wildcard, because THAT dictates how the game is going to go.

My two cents.

I think this is fixed if we tell the wolves up front that there is an Instigator, right?

 

[VashTheStampede]

I don't think there's inherently anything wrong with the power levels of the teams being different from game to game.

I think its silly to aim for complete balance in an asymmetric game.

Plus it makes each entry of the game feel different.

Now, going forward, a lot of people are going to have a fear of the Instigator changing how they look at things.

It's maybe not  optimal, but there's positives.

 

[VashTheStampede]

I think this is fixed if we tell the wolves up front that there is an Instigator, right?

My concern with that is that it will make the Instigated Wolf a very un-fun role.

I could be wrong.

 

[Zell 17]

I don't think there's inherently anything wrong with the power levels of the teams being different from game to game.

I think its silly to aim for complete balance in an asymmetric game.

Plus it makes each entry of the game feel different.

Now, going forward, a lot of people are going to have a fear of the Instigator changing how they look at things.

It's maybe not  optimal, but there's positives.

It's interesting right, because the only real power the Instigators have is knowledge. They can't kill anyone, they can just...influence.

Before Cupid/Instigators were ever a possibility, it's the same ability that the wolves had in the first few iterations of this game where they got smoked.

 

[GwJumpman]

It's interesting right, because the only real power the Instigators have is knowledge. They can't kill anyone, they can just...influence.

Before Cupid/Instigators were ever a possibility, it's the same ability that the wolves had in the first few iterations of this game where they got smoked.

Not disagreeing with you but just observing, 3 people is a lot of people. You can dominate a game's narrative with just 3 people. The lynch is their night kill

 

[Jon]

I cannot agree to this. I will kill Jon day 1 if he does not join the game.

I volunteer as tribute!

I think this is fixed if we tell the wolves up front that there is an Instigator, right?

No, with instigator it's worse because you're now creating a "who is it" among the small group. If they can't trust each other, they have less of a chance to win.

It's interesting right, because the only real power the Instigators have is knowledge. They can't kill anyone, they can just...influence.

Before Cupid/Instigators were ever a possibility, it's the same ability that the wolves had in the first few iterations of this game where they got smoked.

This is a game where knowledge IS power... The whole concept of the game was created to prove that an uniformed majority can identify the informed minority. The whole reason the wolves have a chance is BECAUSE they are informed. You're taking away their advantage and further crippling the town because now there are two informed minorities, one of which is capable of hiding for prolonged periods.

 

[VashTheStampede]

This is a game where knowledge IS power... The whole concept of the game was created to prove that an uniformed majority can identify the informed minority. The whole reason the wolves have a chance is BECAUSE they are informed. You're taking away their advantage and further crippling the town because now there are two informed minorities, one of which is capable of hiding for prolonged periods

Further illustrating the original point of the game.

 

[Zell 17]

This is a game where knowledge IS power... The whole concept of the game was created to prove that an uniformed majority can identify the informed minority. The whole reason the wolves have a chance is BECAUSE they are informed. You're taking away their advantage and further crippling the town because now there are two informed minorities, one of which is capable of hiding for prolonged periods.

But how is that different from normal wolves in a non-Instigator game?

I struggle to see the huge advantage that the 3 people who can't kill have compared to the games where there are teams of 4 wolves all with their own powers.

 

[Fool's Requiem]

I totally fucked this game up. Sorry guys. I was working on like 4 hours of sleep and critical thinking wasn't going to occur. I also didn't consider the Instigator until I looked through the SK roles for possibilities of what the SK could be. I thought Instigator was slim because I figured that with all the death going on, we would have accidentally hit one of the 3 players.

 

[Jawneh]

I totally fucked this game up. Sorry guys. I was working on like 4 hours of sleep and critical thinking wasn't going to occur. I also didn't consider the Instigator until I looked through the SK roles for possibilities of what the SK could be. I thought Instigator was slim because I figured that with all the death going on, we would have accidentally hit one of the 3 players.

Naw. You might've goofed up after a solid day 1, but you weren't the undoing of the town. Sure, you didn't help after day 1. Neither did basically anyone else. Thus TeamInstigator had a field day from there on.

 

[VashTheStampede]

@Zell 17

If we come up short of the magic 16 in the next game, what would you think about trying out having a fake kill on Night 1? Like the equivalent of Mr Boddy dying to spark the game of Clue?

The main problem I see with it off the top of my head is that any Necromancer wouldn't have a possible revive at the onset of the game.

Of course, a solution to  that is making @Christina or someone else the "body" and then if they're resurrected they have to play as a random Normal Villager. I nominate her because this was close to (if not exactly) a suggestion she's made previously.

The wolves aren't really put at much of a disadvantage other than not being able to find and kill a Strong Villager on Night 1 but that's kind of bullshit anyway IMO.

 

[Tommy Boy]

I totally fucked this game up. Sorry guys. I was working on like 4 hours of sleep and critical thinking wasn't going to occur. I also didn't consider the Instigator until I looked through the SK roles for possibilities of what the SK could be. I thought Instigator was slim because I figured that with all the death going on, we would have accidentally hit one of the 3 players.

Don't sweat it man, we all forgot about the instigator. Both Kat and I were like HUH? once we got here. There's an entire entity working against both the town and wolf teams that are united and can chat. They steamrolled us lol.

We were a little miffed with the "doth protest too much" stuff lol, but it is what it is. At the very least, you did figure it out at the end, but once it was too late. I didn't think @GwJumpman would see it because him and I were completely aligned with shortkut.

So really, nobody is mad here (there is some steam being let out for roles and stuff but that's just discussion). You got a wolf kill, man. GG.

 

[Tommy Boy]

The making badges before the game was over thing was a little cocky though, Instigator team.

 

[Tommy Boy]

After all, I am the Purple-crowned Fairy Wren.

 

[Christina]

@Zell 17

If we come up short of the magic 16 in the next game, what would you think about trying out having a fake kill on Night 1? Like the equivalent of Mr Boddy dying to spark the game of Clue?

The main problem I see with it off the top of my head is that any Necromancer wouldn't have a possible revive at the onset of the game.

Of course, a solution to  that is making @Christina or someone else the "body" and then if they're resurrected they have to play as a random Normal Villager. I nominate her because this was close to (if not exactly) a suggestion she's made previously.

The wolves aren't really put at much of a disadvantage other than not being able to find and kill a Strong Villager on Night 1 but that's kind of bullshit anyway IMO.

I would do this, even if it runs the risk of me having to play part of the game and not just haunt people.

 

[Local Hero]

We just need more gunners

 

[Jon]

But how is that different from normal wolves in a non-Instigator game?

I struggle to see the huge advantage that the 3 people who can't kill have compared to the games where there are teams of 4 wolves all with their own powers.

Depending on the roles they roll, they COULD have kills. And fully informed ones. And if the wolf is good, like Kut is, you can pretty much control the night kill too.

You're putting everything into a silo, but the game isn't really played in a silo. It's designed with a wolf disadvantage and every killing role, every seer/detective role... they further disadvantage the wolves. And the instigators, especially the wolf one working against the wolves too, adds to it.

Inherently, I think it's a little revisionist because I'm always a damn wolf, so I am seeing this from a negative perspective as it is.

 

[Jon]

I would do this, even if it runs the risk of me having to play part of the game and not just haunt people.

I, too, would be willing to take on this role.

 

[Jawneh]

We just need more gunners

We need the next person to fill out the questionnaire.

I just realized I've been writing "questionnaire" wrong on all these forms for the last three decades. The horror. If I wasn't dead already, the shame would surely take me. No wonder my boss was such a dick to me. I deserved it all.

 

[Zell 17]

@Zell 17

If we come up short of the magic 16 in the next game, what would you think about trying out having a fake kill on Night 1? Like the equivalent of Mr Boddy dying to spark the game of Clue?

The main problem I see with it off the top of my head is that any Necromancer wouldn't have a possible revive at the onset of the game.

Of course, a solution to  that is making @Christina or someone else the "body" and then if they're resurrected they have to play as a random Normal Villager. I nominate her because this was close to (if not exactly) a suggestion she's made previously.

The wolves aren't really put at much of a disadvantage other than not being able to find and kill a Strong Villager on Night 1 but that's kind of bullshit anyway IMO.

Alright here's a thought. It would let us run a "16-person" game with 15.

All roles are rolled and given numbers.

Wolves and solo killer get their roles first. They run all of their abilities on the numbers per usual and make their selection. That role is killed and is "the body". The remaining villagers are then assigned roles from the remaining non-dead roles and can run their nightly abilities.

There are some edge cases to think about, specifically:

What to do if the solo killer (specifically SK) also elects to kill someone night 1?

 

[Zell 17]

This would also most likely make the medium a weaker role, since they will often not have any villagers to revive on night 2. But oh well.

 

[Zell 17]

I think if the RK also kills then it's same-old, someone gets a first blood badge. And we'd only be able to run it like this if we are shorthanded. But aside from that I see no reason not to do it.

 

[VashTheStampede]

Alright here's a thought. It would let us run a "16-person" game with 15.

All roles are rolled and given numbers.

Wolves and solo killer get their roles first. They run all of their abilities on the numbers per usual and make their selection. That role is killed and is "the body". The remaining villagers are then assigned roles from the remaining non-dead roles and can run their nightly abilities.

I think this all sounds good.

What to do if the solo killer (specifically SK) also elects to kill someone night 1?

Yeah this is still an issue. Have to think on that.

This would also most likely make the medium a weaker role, since they will often not have any villagers to revive on night 2. But oh well.

Designated Corpse Player fixes that, no?

 

[Jon]

I'm not sure that solves a lot of the issues we're seeing, necessarily.

Is there a reason to not restrict roles to only one occurrence of each? Like no duplicates? And also maybe some rotating roles?

I've felt a lot of... staleness... in roles recently. Especially seeing multiples of certain roles and never seeing others.

 

[Jawneh]

I have DCPs at work. Some fancy random french acronym. Essentially they're all fixes for cockups some engineers made along the way and are now giving us an oopsie to fix after the fact.

I don't like DCPs.

 

[VashTheStampede]

I'm not sure that solves a lot of the issues we're seeing, necessarily.

Is there a reason to not restrict roles to only one occurrence of each? Like no duplicates?

Makes it harder for wolves to hide behind a role claim.

 

[Zell 17]

I'm not sure that solves a lot of the issues we're seeing, necessarily.

Is there a reason to not restrict roles to only one occurrence of each? Like no duplicates? And also maybe some rotating roles?

I've felt a lot of... staleness... in roles recently. Especially seeing multiples of certain roles and never seeing others.

We've seen in the earlier games that "fixed" roles have made it harder on the evils, because they haven't fought for those roles. No duplicates does the same thing, because proves all evils once one person with the role claim dies.

For example, in this game we had three sheriff claims. Once one died, everyone else is proven evil. The town can literally just kill all of the sheriffs and win without thinking.

 

[Tommy Boy]

My only suggested change:

A death condition for the Sorcerer to match their alive condition: If the Sorcerer is lynched by the village, they will show as Aura Seer until their magic fades away by the next day, revealing their true nature as Sorcerer.

Everyone always says wolves have a harder time, well this would certainly help fuck up night actions!

Other than that, I have no issues with the game as-is but totally willing to hear other people out as long as the games don't break.

 

[Zell 17]

I think our role diversity has been pretty good, although we have somehow avoided the Conjuror for the random strong pretty often. But looking at the random regular roles and my totally subjective qualification on how often we've seen each:

Aura Seer - It's been awhile, but I'm not sure more seers is what you meant.
Avenger - Been awhile
Beast Hunter - Seen it plenty
Bell Ringer - Seen it plenty
Bodyguard - A couple
Doctor - A couple
Farmer - Seen it plenty
Flagger - Seen it plenty
Flower Child - Rare
Judge - Rare
Librarian - A couple
Loudmouth - A couple
Marksman - Seen it plenty
Preacher - A couple
Priest - Seen it plenty
Red Lady - A couple
Sheriff - Seen it plenty
Seer Apprentice - Seen it plenty
Spirit Seer - Seen it plenty
Tough Guy - A couple
Violinist - Rare
Witch - Seen it plenty

 

[Jon]

Makes it harder for wolves to hide behind a role claim.

We've seen in the earlier games that "fixed" roles have made it harder on the evils, because they haven't fought for those roles. No duplicates does the same thing, because proves all evils once one person with the role claim dies.

For example, in this game we had three sheriff claims. Once one died, everyone else is proven evil. The town can literally just kill all of the sheriffs and win without thinking.

Gotcha... makes sense.

As for the roles you've mentioned, I feel that proves my point though. Feels like we see an abundance of certain roles and next to nothing for others. Some utterly pointless roles are no fun to get too. I like the idea of having every role have SOME use... and I don't like one sided risk roles that actually hurt you more than not.

A role like MM and Priest are fine overall, but the risk of killing yourself before usefulness typically sees one of two results (there are exceptions we've seen recently though): either you shoot early to ensure you get to use your ability and end up killing yourself, or you hold it for a day or two to get a good target and end up killed before you use it.

Other roles like the red lady almost never are worth using because you either get limited info, or you kill yourself.

Either way, I'm just rambling at this point. A lot of this is niche in my experience and I'm not sure how else to balance this to be more fun, but that's also why I enjoyed sitting this game out and it's the best I've felt after a wolf game in a long time.

 

[Mark]

I’m just dropping in to say I can’t wait for @Benzine’s “The Wolf of Corporate” angle. Gonna be the single most professionally courteous game ever.

 

[shortkut]

Page 1 thoughts

Sup dood

@VashTheStampede

Smart move to kill the MVP

I did ask if we could kill him

 

[Zell 17]

Other roles like the red lady almost never are worth using because you either get limited info, or you kill yourself.

Red lady can be really powerful though if used correctly. It's a "seer" that can never be tricked. You know if the red lady visits someone, they are not a wolf/rk 100%.

Red ladies should be visiting anyone who claims to be a BH or Flagger or whatever.

 

[Local Hero]

We need the next person to fill out the questionnaire.

I just realized I've been writing "questionnaire" wrong on all these forms for the last three decades. The horror. If I wasn't dead already, the shame would surely take me. No wonder my boss was such a dick to me. I deserved it all.

What are your talking about?

 

[Fool's Requiem]

I think our role diversity has been pretty good, although we have somehow avoided the Conjuror for the random strong pretty often. But looking at the random regular roles and my totally subjective qualification on how often we've seen each:

Aura Seer - It's been awhile, but I'm not sure more seers is what you meant.
Avenger - Been awhile
Beast Hunter - Seen it plenty
Bell Ringer - Seen it plenty
Bodyguard - A couple
Doctor - A couple
Farmer - Seen it plenty
Flagger - Seen it plenty
Flower Child - Rare
Judge - Rare
Librarian - A couple
Loudmouth - A couple
Marksman - Seen it plenty
Preacher - A couple
Priest - Seen it plenty
Red Lady - A couple
Sheriff - Seen it plenty
Seer Apprentice - Seen it plenty
Spirit Seer - Seen it plenty
Tough Guy - A couple
Violinist - Rare
Witch - Seen it plenty

Violinist seems like a shit role.

I would like to see how I would play Loudmouth.

 

[Jawneh]

What are your talking about?

https://gwforums.com/threads/aftercare.1847/post-110590

 

[Jon]

Red lady can be really powerful though if used correctly. It's a "seer" that can never be tricked. You know if the red lady visits someone, they are not a wolf/rk 100%.

Red ladies should be visiting anyone who claims to be a BH or Flagger or whatever.

Good way to lure a red lady to her death, too though. The risk is just not worth the reward most of the time. Unless the person they visited is revealed, then all it shows is there was a red lady, they visited the wrong person, and now the town is short another member. Sure the red lady can ANNOUNCE who they are visiting (except night 1), and then you just have to BELIEVE they visited who they said... It's a role that in theory is fun and powerful, but in execution it's not usually worth the risk.

I, for one, despise dying without using an ability. And whenever I'm town, I almost never get to use/successfully use, my powers... if I get them.

 

[Tommy Boy]

I, for one, am a fan of ladies.

 

[Local Hero]

Typo*

Q1: If you could do something different, 20/20 and all, what would that be?

Q2: What is the biggest missplay currently in the land of living? Without spoiling anything using otherworldly information?

Q1: Not get duped by TD? Not lynch Benzine? Protect myself and target TD?

Kind of a pointless question imo. If I had sufficient knowledge on situations where it was a coin flip, I'd choose correctly? lol

Q2: We trusted TD as he led to a wolf kill. No one really pursued solo killer possibilities, at least not to the appropriate conclusion until it was too late.

 

[Tommy Boy]

I believed TD was a fuckin spirit seer too, I was just was trying to convince everyone that Jump was more of a wolf than me lol. Crazy that both of us dying would have "validated" TD. THANKS SHORTKUT.

 

[Zell 17]

Good way to lure a red lady to her death, too though. The risk is just not worth the reward most of the time. Unless the person they visited is revealed, then all it shows is there was a red lady, they visited the wrong person, and now the town is short another member. Sure the red lady can ANNOUNCE who they are visiting (except night 1), and then you just have to BELIEVE they visited who they said... It's a role that in theory is fun and powerful, but in execution it's not usually worth the risk.

I, for one, despise dying without using an ability. And whenever I'm town, I almost never get to use/successfully use, my powers... if I get them.

Yeah typically a red lady would announce to the entire village who they are going to visit before night falls.

 

[Tommy Boy]

Oh I forgot to tell you all, the instigator team decided on their badge:

 

[Christina]

Good way to lure a red lady to her death, too though. The risk is just not worth the reward most of the time. Unless the person they visited is revealed, then all it shows is there was a red lady, they visited the wrong person, and now the town is short another member. Sure the red lady can ANNOUNCE who they are visiting (except night 1), and then you just have to BELIEVE they visited who they said... It's a role that in theory is fun and powerful, but in execution it's not usually worth the risk.

I, for one, despise dying without using an ability. And whenever I'm town, I almost never get to use/successfully use, my powers... if I get them.

I like the red lady but I feel if she dies, the role of the person that killed her should be revealed. So, there is something gained by her trying to visit people. I.e. what type of wolf or solo killer there may be, but not just outing the person. Also, she is visiting somebody that night, I guess there is more pillow talk in the jail than in the bedroom.

 

[Zell 17]

I believed TD was a fuckin spirit seer too, I was just was trying to convince everyone that Jump was more of a wolf than me lol. Crazy that both of us dying would have "validated" TD. THANKS SHORTKUT.

I think more than there being Instigators, this game goes to show how powerful it is to:

A) Fake information
B) Potentially sell a wolf day 1

I mean imagine if one of the FOUR seer claims was real. Would the village have any idea who to believe? And especially after a wolf was caught by one of them, the remaining are basically on death's door.

 

[Jawneh]

I've basically never been a seer. Blind wolf once, Red Lady once. And only once was I a protector, a Doctor, but I was also instigated then lol. Just murder for me most of the time.

 

[Tommy Boy]

I think more than there being Instigators, this game goes to show how powerful it is to:

A) Fake information
B) Potentially sell a wolf day 1

I mean imagine if one of the FOUR seer claims was real. Would the village have any idea who to believe? And especially after a wolf was caught by one of them, the remaining are basically on death's door.

I'm convinced our sacrifice play would have actually worked if shortkut wasn't instigated.

 

[Advocate for Ants! Mouth]

I didn't get to be alive and active for long enough to get to believe anyone on anything. Well other than not believing Kat and she ended up killing me in broad daylight.

 

[Zell 17]

I'm convinced our sacrifice play would have actually worked if shortkut wasn't instigated.

Yeah probably