Ok, Ok, Let's Talk Trans

[Crystal]

Ladies, did math and science become harder and more confusing for you when you started hormones?

Nope, I actually got better at math, though that's because of a renewed interest in studying things

 

[Crystal]

All my brains melted into my tits, but hey at least I don't burn water while attempting to boil it anymore.

I make a mean sammich! Sorry, my boobs make a mean sammich

 

[Raine]

You need to reply to this thread in order to see this content.

 

[Kat]

I keep trying to make warm, melty grilled sandwiches and inevitably burn them. Where's my natural cooking ability as a woman?! Not fair.

 

[Raine]

You need to reply to this thread in order to see this content.

 

[Crystal]

Listen, I was stupid before the hormones.

But as tempting as it is, I don't think I'm stupid enough to try and find a gif for this.

Shh, don't let them know we were stupid in the before times, that destroys the credibility of womaning making us dumb!

I keep trying to make warm, melty grilled sandwiches and inevitably burn them. Where's my natural cooking ability as a woman?! Not fair.

Trannies took her jerb!

 

[Mark]

Nobody is getting hurt because of you. They're getting hurt because of violent, hateful assholes. They aren't going to make me hide my queerness or support for other queer people. If anything, it makes me want to be louder in my support. Fuck those people, they can't kill us all (although I do wish they'd quit trying).

They’re getting hurt because the “noise” that they generate offends people that feel like the world should operate around their comfort and convenience. They want to be the star of the show, and see people like her and her feel-good story about being an ally and felt threatened by that… because no one speaks that way of them. That’s why the same shit could have happened to someone with a BLM flag a few years ago… or a Mexican flag when Trump was going on about the border… or any other comparable scenario. The cause doesn’t matter. It’s the person that perpetrated the act of violence that matters. It’s an ego thing… they’re so self-righteous that they believe that they have the right to execute someone.

The sports thing is framed all wrong IMO. Sports are already not fair. There are tons of athletes who are naturally more muscular, stronger, have more endurance, etc than their gender typically does. Being a professional athlete has a huge component of biological luck. Some women naturally have high testosterone levels. Should they not be allowed to play against women? What if they have a vagina but XY chromosomes? What if they're intersex? Should people be allowed to take hormones that let them build bigger muscles if they're naturally low on that hormone?

There are teenagers playing high school football that are a foot taller than me and have me beat by 125lbs, you’re 100% right about that biological luck.

I think the problem might also lie in the logistics, but people don’t want to come right out and say it. Sure, you could put a woman as a wide receiver in the NFL just because she’s built like some of the receivers in the league and has comparable skills… but when she gets fucking leveled by someone, people are gonna have a problem with it. Flip it… if some grown ass man gets leveled by a woman, he’s gonna feel it in his pride and come gunning for her and check the shit out of her coming off of a route. People get emotional in competitive sports, and if we’re still at the point where we’re comparing body parts to determine if someone can play with the team… it’s extremely optimistic to think we’re at a point where it’s actually tangible.

Making it as a professional athlete has absolutely nothing to do with fairness. There is no level playing field. That's not even the right question to ask, because lots of people will never have any chance of being a professional athlete no matter how hard they work at it, and everyone is already fine with that.

That’s very true. Although there are steady incoming undrafted or fresh outta school athletes, it’s definitely still more about whether or not you went to a sports college or not.

Let's be honest about the real goal here: making sports competitive and unpredictable enough that they're entertaining to watch. Nobody likes seeing the same person or team always win, regardless of why they do so. It's boring and unsatisfying for everyone involved.

Agreed, but I think part of the contention might also come from the lengths that certain groups went through for either their own leagues, or for admittance into an existing league. For example… the WNBA was a concept for a while before it came to fruition, a lot of women spent a lot of time working towards that goal, and could feel slighted by newly admissable competitors with obvious physical advantages (Lia Thomas, for example) mopping the floor with them… and they’d have every right to feel that way, but they also would have to remember what it was like watching the NBA and the boys play to not lose sight of what Lia and the trans community is presently going through. There are a hell of a lot of things to consider with this subject, that’s for sure.

I don't know what the answer is, but sorting people based on ability rather than genitals is probably a good place to start.

That seems to be the most logical. Children’s sports are sorted by age group/weight class. Why not adult sports?

 

[Kat]

For example… the WNBA was a concept for a while before it came to fruition, a lot of women spent a lot of time working towards that goal, and could feel slighted by newly admissable competitors with obvious physical advantages (Lia Thomas, for example) mopping the floor with them… and they’d have every right to feel that way

Absolutely, sports between unevenly matched opponents isn't fun for anyone. I bet even the person who always wins starts to feel lousy about it after a while. But there are plenty of trans women who could compete in women leagues without unbalancing things, and there are cis men and women who are so much better than everyone that maybe it'd be better if they didn't play.

You're right that mixed gender teams have a lot of challenges too, though. And even if we did somehow succeed at that, realistically most women will end up in lower ability leagues, which reintroduces problems that women were trying to solve with your WNBA example.

I'm not sure a great solution exists.

 

[Crystal]

(Lia Thomas, for example) mopping the floor with them

...can I point out that Lia Thomas, yes, did win 1 national championship, but was otherwise mired in mediocrity for her swim career. Using her as an example of her "biological advantage" when, post transitioning, all of her times plummeted from her testosterone-powered bests, sort of supports the trans side of the argument, not the "oh look at these MEN coming in a decimating poor women!!" Yeah, she won a championship, good for her, but she's not some super athlete dominating the sport.

Also let's not forget that trans bans also exclude those who took hormone blockers and therefore never gained those so-called biological advantages. Where's the fairness for them?

 

[Kat]

...can I point out that Lia Thomas, yes, did win 1 national championship, but was otherwise mired in mediocrity for her swim career. Using her as an example of her "biological advantage" when, post transitioning, all of her times plummeted from her testosterone-powered bests, sort of supports the trans side of the argument, not the "oh look at these MEN coming in a decimating poor women!!" Yeah, she won a championship, good for her, but she's not some super athlete dominating the sport.

Also let's not forget that trans bans also exclude those who took hormone blockers and therefore never gained those so-called biological advantages. Where's the fairness for them?

I haven't commented on whether trans women really have any kind of advantage because I don't follow sports enough to know, but based on all the other manufactured outrage about trans people, I have wondered if it's even a real problem. I'm sure someone could find an example of a trans woman dominating a sport, but I bet most sports fans could name a dozen cis people that's also true of.

I think I read once that the Olympics allows people to compete as their identified gender so long as they've been on hormones long enough and their levels test within acceptable limits. Anyone know if that's true or did I just imagine it?

 

[Crystal]

I haven't commented on whether trans women really have any kind of advantage because I don't follow sports enough to know, but based on all the other manufactured outrage about trans people, I have wondered if it's even a real problem. I'm sure someone could find an example of a trans woman dominating a sport, but I bet most sports fans could name a dozen cis people that's also true of.

I think I read once that the Olympics allows people to compete as their identified gender so long as they've been on hormones long enough and their levels test within acceptable limits. Anyone know if that's true or did I just imagine it?

They let a trans woman in for weightlifting, much to everyone's humming and hawing, and she finished 10th, lol.

 

[Mark]

...can I point out that Lia Thomas, yes, did win 1 national championship, but was otherwise mired in mediocrity for her swim career. Using her as an example of her "biological advantage" when, post transitioning, all of her times plummeted from her testosterone-powered bests, sort of supports the trans side of the argument, not the "oh look at these MEN coming in a decimating poor women!!" Yeah, she won a championship, good for her, but she's not some super athlete dominating the sport.

I get that, and I won’t pretend to know a thing about professional swimming. All I know is she was mediocre prior and won after despite previous times dropping. She was just the quickest example, because my mind flashed to that image of her dwarfing the others at the podium as the others knew they couldn’t compete with that leg span… no different than if that one chick from GoT was a swimmer, she’d clean up in the same way… she’s like 8ft tall and built like a Rugby player.

Also let's not forget that trans bans also exclude those who took hormone blockers and therefore never gained those so-called biological advantages. Where's the fairness for them?

That goes in line with what we discussed earlier in the thread, where we kinda agreed that those were discretionary issues that should be ironed out and not generalized for competitive purposes.

I haven't commented on whether trans women really have any kind of advantage because I don't follow sports enough to know, but based on all the other manufactured outrage about trans people, I have wondered if it's even a real problem. I'm sure someone could find an example of a trans woman dominating a sport, but I bet most sports fans could name a dozen cis people that's also true of.

In this particular instance, swimming with longer legs and having a lunge that greatly exceeds your competitors would be an advantage, much like putting a heavyweight fighter up against a featherweight fighter.

I think I read once that the Olympics allows people to compete as their identified gender so long as they've been on hormones long enough and their levels test within acceptable limits. Anyone know if that's true or did I just imagine it?

I HAVE heard something down those lines, but can’t confirm it.

 

[Crystal]

I get that, and I won’t pretend to know a thing about professional swimming. All I know is she was mediocre prior and won after despite previous times dropping. She was just the quickest example, because my mind flashed to that image of her dwarfing the others at the podium as the others knew they couldn’t compete with that leg span… no different than if that one chick from GoT was a swimmer, she’d clean up in the same way… she’s like 8ft tall and built like a Rugby player.

Those same women then beat her handily in just about every other event

That goes in line with what we discussed earlier in the thread, where we kinda agreed that those were discretionary issues that should be ironed out and not generalized for competitive purposes.

Except right now they ARE excluded and for no logical reason other than, sorry hon, you were born with an appendage you have no desire to have and does nothing for you, but for reasons adults can't adequately explain, you are irrationally judged for possessing.

In this particular instance, swimming with longer legs and having a lunge that greatly exceeds your competitors would be an advantage, much like putting a heavyweight fighter up against a featherweight fighter.

If she had such an advantage, how is it she didn't win, or even medal, in most of her events?

I HAVE heard something down those lines, but can’t confirm it.

'tis true. Or was. I think they've shut that down now.

 

[Raine]

You need to reply to this thread in order to see this content.

 

[Crystal]

Mmhm. You can't just pick and choose only the things that support your argument - well I mean you can, because they fucking do it to us (all of us!) all the goddamn time - you have to look at the full picture. Which, y'know, you also can't actually do if you're not letting trans athletes compete to begin with.

Easy solution -- no sports. Ever. Everyone gets gold medals for effort.

But the people that started this whole trans athletes comin' for yer medals hysteria don't care about women's sports, either. Most people still don't, even! So... I mean, there's that too.

But THEY TOOK HER JERB!!!

 

[Raine]

You need to reply to this thread in order to see this content.

 

[Crystal]

Transgender Olympian Laurel Hubbard fails to win medal in Olympic debut

The New Zealand weightlifter’s appearance at the Tokyo Games ignited a heated debate about trans women's participation in elite sports.

www.nbcnews.com

 

[Mark]

Those same women then beat her handily in just about every other event

And I’d venture to bet that their physical advantages led them to victory in those particular events.

Except right now they ARE excluded and for no logical reason other than, sorry hon, you were born with an appendage you have no desire to have and does nothing for you, but for reasons adults can't adequately explain, you are irrationally judged for possessing.

I mean… that’s really no different than Mugsy Bogues. He had the skill for the game, but was physically diminutive compared to the others. They ignored a physical disadvantage because his skill set made up for it. I’m sure he would have liked to be taller, but he wasn’t. So, that would circle back to actual competitiveness… matching up players based on their skill level.

If she had such an advantage, how is it she didn't win, or even medal, in most of her events?

An advantage doesn’t always equate to a win. That’s why 99% of the jokes you’ll see about her reference the fact that she sucked as a male athlete and thought she’d clean house in the female division.

'tis true. Or was. I think they've shut that down now.

Figures… the most logical decision they’ve made they’ve backtracked on.

 

[Kat]

I still don't know a goddamn thing about any sports. I vaguely know the rules for some of them but they're all so incredibly boring to watch. Maybe I'd enjoy football more if I was straight and could just stare at the juicy man ass while throwing out question marks about all the silly rules and why everything takes so long.

Yeah, I don't understand the national obsession with football. It's got maybe 30 interesting seconds per game, at most. And why do they always need people constantly commenting during all sports games?

I think, realistically, it has to start from the bottom up - getting more young girls active in traditionally male-dominated sports, increasing the pool and level of competition, having mixed-gender training and competition to help close skill gaps. And slowly, over time, integrating - in both directions.

Do you really think that's the reason men generally do better in physical sports, because girls aren't exposed to it as much or as young? I feel like that's one area men really do have a natural advantage. Probably we could invent new sports where that's not true, but something like football feels like it'll always be make I dominated.

 

[Crystal]

And I’d venture to bet that their physical advantages led them to victory in those particular events.

Or her lack of such advantages.

I mean… that’s really no different than Mugsy Bogues. He had the skill for the game, but was physically diminutive compared to the others. They ignored a physical disadvantage because his skill set made up for it. I’m sure he would have liked to be taller, but he wasn’t. So, that would circle back to actual competitiveness… matching up players based on their skill level.

Ok, except he wasn't restricted from playing because of his lack of height.

An advantage doesn’t always equate to a win. That’s why 99% of the jokes you’ll see about her reference the fact that she sucked as a male athlete and thought she’d clean house in the female division.

She never thought she'd clean house, she just wanted to compete as herself. Others making assumptions turned her strive for acceptance into a nightmare in intolerance, and BECAUSE she didn't clean house, they made her a joke.

Figures… the most logical decision they’ve made they’ve backtracked on.

Naturally.

 

[Mark]

Do you really think that's the reason men generally do better in physical sports, because girls aren't exposed to it as much or as young? I feel like that's one area men really do have a natural advantage. Probably we could invent new sports where that's not true, but something like football feels like it'll always be make I dominated.

I dunno… they start tee-ball and softball for girls REAL young here. My buddy had his daughter enrolled by 6 at her request.

 

[Kat]

Transgender Olympian Laurel Hubbard fails to win medal in Olympic debut

The New Zealand weightlifter’s appearance at the Tokyo Games ignited a heated debate about trans women's participation in elite sports.

www.nbcnews.com

Hmm, the most competitive athletic competition in the world has been allowing trans people to compete since 2004 and it's caused exactly zero problems. Kinda says all you need to hear on the matter IMO.

 

[Raine]

You need to reply to this thread in order to see this content.

 

[Mark]

Or her lack of such advantages.

Realistically, it could go either way depending on whether or not it was an agility-based or endurance-based event, whichever she excelled or sunk in.

I’ll be real with you… I don’t even know how to swim, so I’m just arguing counterpoints and speaking theoretically here. There ARE potential valid concerns that should be addressed… for example… what if a trans woman took a crotch shot in a contact sport and wasn’t protected adequately because it wasn’t a required piece of the uniform for female athletes? Yeah, it’s a random as fuck example, but that would certainly put the other female competitors at an advantage if they knew all they had to do was take a cheap shot… and that’s what I’m playing devil’s advocate here for, because on either side of the table… someone could do some foul shit and push that whole concept of co-ed sports further back in progress. The moves need to be calculated, and carefully thought out, you know what I mean?

Ok, except he wasn't restricted from playing because of his lack of height.

That’s my point… physical advantages don’t always make or break athletic potential. Butterbean is another great example. Look at that dude, and then some of the dudes he got into the ring with. I’m definitely in agreement that the rules should be skill-based. Weight, height, time/skill qualifying only.

She never thought she'd clean house, she just wanted to compete as herself. Others making assumptions turned her strive for acceptance into a nightmare in intolerance, and BECAUSE she didn't clean house, they made her a joke.

Gonna have to disagree there, people don’t compete for second place, trans or not. She was a competitor before transition, and a competitor after. That type of ego doesn’t just go away.

 

[Smacktard]

I have never been in favor of gendered sports. I do not believe that the worst/weakest man in any professional sport is always, or even usually, better than the best/strongest woman available.

But that's not the point. It's disingenuous to compare the worst example of something with the best example of something and say, "Look, they're the same!"

There was a famous event where the Williams sisters said they could beat any male ranked lower than 200. Serena Williams, then just a teenager, challenged the 54 year-old tennis champion who was, at the time, ranked 203. He trounced her, trounced her sister, and then the girls revised their statement to "any male outside of the top 350". That's a pretty sizable power gap.

I don't think it's fair to pit men against women in competitive sports because men, almost invariably, have a much larger physical and biological advantage. I don't think, outside of maybe technical sports like climbing, that there is any world record for competitive sports held by a woman that's better a record held by a man.

The only reason that has perpetuated and spread to other things - like, as you mention here, CHESS?! - is because patriarchal society refuses to roll over and fucking die already.

I don't think that's the case, given that women were the ones who advocated for women's sports, because they wanted a level playing field and an outlet where they could be celebrated and showcase their own physical achievements without being overshadowed by men. Women's sports leagues and gendered sports are pro women, not the opposite. If we wanted to talk about compensation rates between men's and women's sports, that would be a different story, but we're not debating capitalism, after all.

Women are deprived of equal opportunity to train and compete, and (some) men declare the gap that exists because of this as proof unto itself that women are incapable of performing at the appropriate level.

Men don't "declare" a gap exists. Empirical evidence and biological differences prove that a gap exists in physical sports. Calling it "the appropriate level" is unfair. There's no appropriate/inappropriate level. I think men's dn women both should be celebrated for their achievements, and that women should not be held up to some standard that's physically impossible for them to achieve.

If you wade through the hysteria and fearmongering, and get into the handful of articles that actually look at trans women and their competition records... not only are they not winning all the time, they're usually middle of the pack at best.

You also have cases like this, where a MtF trans lifted outlifted their nearest competition by 200kg:

Transgender powerlifter could be BANNED

The International Powerlifting Federation today issued the Canadian Powerlifting Union an ultimatum after a female competitor opened up about concerns over.

www.dailymail.co.uk

If we use Hubbard as an example, she was one of the oldest competitors in the most recent games. She's in her 40s doing extremely heavy and technically complex lifts, and she won many golds in the years prior.

You're competing in cycling as a person that has gone through male puberty. Your frame is larger and heavier, but you're on a variety of medications that intentionally deprive you of the fuel for that body. Your ability to build muscle mass, and retain any muscle mass you started with, is significantly impacted by transitioning your body into a form you're more comfortable in

That seems a bit disingenuous. It's like saying that biological women who are naturally 6'7 are not able to compete in sports because their frame as too big and powerful and they're not able to adequately nourish it. Yes, transitioning deprives you of hormones to fuel your body as well as it possibly can, but you still have an advantage (on average) in muscle density, frame, and size.

... Men are still seen as being naturally better at chess than women? WTF?! Ladies, did math and science become harder and more confusing for you when you started hormones?

The chess community says that it's due to statistics alone (not as many women play, or have the privilege of learning to play as men), but then banning MtF trans people from competing with women certainly sends mixed messaging.

The sports thing is framed all wrong IMO. Sports are already not fair. There are tons of athletes who are naturally more muscular, stronger, have more endurance, etc than their gender typically does. Being a professional athlete has a huge component of biological luck. Some women naturally have high testosterone levels. Should they not be allowed to play against women? What if they have a vagina but XY chromosomes? What if they're intersex? Should people be allowed to take hormones that let them build bigger muscles if they're naturally low on that hormone?

Sports aren't fair, but that's okay. When we watch sports, we want to watch the best of the best compete on a playing field that is more or less even. True equality does not exist in sports, but if it did, they would probably be pretty boring. Still, there are some things that sports do to be more even: weight classes, draft picks, age segmenting, and gender segmenting are the major ones.

The fastest 100m ran by a 16 year old boy is about 5% faster than the women's all-time record. Would it be fair to pair him off against a 21 year old male?

What you mention about hormones is interesting though. There was a women who was born intersex, but her parents raised her as a female. She competed in sports, broke a bunch of records, but then because her natural testosterone levels were too high, she was banned from competing against women. Considerations like this really raise questions about fairness in sports.

...can I point out that Lia Thomas, yes, did win 1 national championship, but was otherwise mired in mediocrity for her swim career.

Her record says otherwise:
In the 2018–2019 season she was, when competing in the men's team, ranked 554th in the 200 freestyle, 65th in the 500 freestyle, and 32nd in the 1650 freestyle. In the 2021–2022 season, those ranks are now, when competing in the women's team, fifth in the 200 freestyle, first in the 500 freestyle, and eighth in the 1650 freestyle

Thats a pretty significant jump in rankings.

Except right now they ARE excluded and for no logical reason other than, sorry hon, you were born with an appendage you have no desire to have

Saying that this just boils down to whichever genitals you have is pretty reductive. Hormone therapy alone indicates that there's more going on than whether you have an outie or an innie between your legs.

He had the skill for the game, but was physically diminutive compared to the others. They ignored a physical disadvantage because his skill set made up for it.

I think Mugsy Bogues stature wasn't ignored, but it was a benefit to him. His small size allowed him to do things that most basketball players couldn't do, and didn't know how to counter. He was 5'2, I believe, right? He could run circles around guys who were 7'4 and just couldn't reach him. Sure he was a skilled as hell player too, but I'd argue his stature wasn't exactly a disadvantage given the way he used it.

 

[Crystal]

Saying that this just boils down to whichever genitals you have is pretty reductive. Hormone therapy alone indicates that there's more going on than whether you have an outie or an innie between your legs.

In this instance we're talking about trans girls who used puberty blockers and then went through ONLY female puberty when the time was right. They have zero biological advantage because they never underwent male puberty. They're still banned and the only reason is strictly anatomical.

 

[Crystal]

Her record says otherwise:
In the 2018–2019 season she was, when competing in the men's team, ranked 554th in the 200 freestyle, 65th in the 500 freestyle, and 32nd in the 1650 freestyle. In the 2021–2022 season, those ranks are now, when competing in the women's team, fifth in the 200 freestyle, first in the 500 freestyle, and eighth in the 1650 freestyle

Thats a pretty significant jump in rankings.

Yes, I read the same statistics. Point being, the argument was that she would decimate...she didn't. She almost never podiumed.

 

[Smacktard]

Yes, I read the same statistics. Point being, the argument was that she would decimate...she didn't. She almost never podiumed.

She jumped over 540 ranks in one category. She may not have podiumed, but you cannot say that she wasn't given a massive advantage. If she had ranked higher pre-transition, is it possible that she would have mopped the floor with everyone?

In this instance we're talking about trans girls who used puberty blockers and then went through ONLY female puberty when the time was right. They have zero biological advantage because they never underwent male puberty. They're still banned and the only reason is strictly anatomical.

Oh yes, well in that case it is strictly anatomical. Anecdotally, it does seem strange that they would be banned from competition in this case. I'm not sure where the science stands on this.

 

[Crystal]

She jumped over 540 ranks in one category. She may not have podiumed, but you cannot say that she wasn't given a massive advantage. If she had ranked higher pre-transition, is it possible that she would have mopped the floor with everyone?

Possible? Absolutely. It's also within the realm of possibility she could have transitioned and regressed.

Oh yes, well in that case it is strictly anatomical. Anecdotally, it does seem strange that they would be banned from competition in this case. I'm not sure where the science stands on this.

The problem is they're using the label trans to define all trans people, when in actuality the differences between a trans person like myself and the one in this situation is that the one in this situation is essentially a biological female with a birth defect, while I'm trying my damndest to undo the damage of male puberty in order to try to live somewhat close to the life I should have had. So yeah, you can make the argument that I would be a "trans athlete" were I to compete, and I'd have that so-called biological advantage, but the one in this situation does not and therefore should not be counted as anything other than the girl/woman she is. Sadly, it's just another means to point out that trans women are not women, so exclude them.

 

[Smacktard]

Possible? Absolutely. It's also within the realm of possibility she could have transitioned and regressed

Sure, but when people make huge athletic placement leaps when transitioning from MtF, that evidences that these people show an inherent physical advantage over non-trans females.

Sadly, it's just another means to point out that trans women are not women, so exclude them.

I understand that trans people unfortunately already feel excluded by much of society. They are stigmatized and unfairly judged by too many people just because they want to live their lives in a way that is honest and true to themselves, and which does not affect others in any way at all.

At least in physical sports, I don't think the idea is to exclude them, just like women aren't really being excluded from male sports by establishing female leagues, and just like disabled people are not being excluded by the founding of the Paralympics. Rather, these places give these athletes an area where they are seen and can excel on a more level playing field.

I want to make clear that I'm not trying to diminish or minimize the hard work that MtF athletes put into their training regimes. They're world-class athletes not because of simply transitioning, but because of the effort and dedication they put into their training. If I transitioned, even though I'm fairly physically fit, I wouldn't start dominating in ANY female sport of weightlifting category. I'd get my ass kicked! But for athletes that are already at the top of their game, it does seem that transitioning MtF offers them an unfair advantage against their female competition.

 

[Raine]

You need to reply to this thread in order to see this content.

 

[Mark]

I think Mugsy Bogues stature wasn't ignored, but it was a benefit to him. His small size allowed him to do things that most basketball players couldn't do, and didn't know how to counter. He was 5'2, I believe, right? He could run circles around guys who were 7'4 and just couldn't reach him. Sure he was a skilled as hell player too, but I'd argue his stature wasn't exactly a disadvantage given the way he used it.

It certainly wasn’t ignored, which is my point. It was ignored in the sense that it didn’t prohibit him from playing, but otherwise… it was made very clear throughout his career that he utilized his size difference to his advantage. It’s the same principle as what I was saying about the GoT actress… she’s built in a way that would afford her comparable athleticism to similarly sized and smaller biological men as a biological female. The concept @Kat outlined would really be the only “fair” way to incorporate everyone into sports… by breaking them down into classes based on size and skill by breaking them down in a NFL Combine-style skills test to sort them by prowess in a particular sport. You wouldn’t pair me up in a competitive boxing match against a 120lb male or trans male because it wouldn’t be fair, so to have small athletic women competing against larger athletic women would rate the same. Using the Lia Thomas example… look at some of those dives she did into the pool alongside the others. Her height and legs alone gave her a head start before they even touched water.

Yes, I read the same statistics. Point being, the argument was that she would decimate...she didn't. She almost never podiumed.

Comparatively… that IS decimation, though. Nah, it didn’t get her shiny medals, but it put her above others… which is what competitors strive for. You’ve gotta take yourself out of the trans perspective, and place yourself in the competitive athlete perspective to get what he’s saying here. It goes back to what I was talking about with competitors earlier… they don’t compete for 2nd place. They compete to win. She wasn’t winning, and then she performed better in a situation where she had a physical advantage, putting her closer to her goal of winning. That doesn’t imply that she transitioned purely to win at a sporting event, that implies that she’s opportunistic… using her advantage to attempt to seize a victory. That’s part of the major issue people have with trans athletes… it isn’t the minority of people paranoid about sexual predators, it’s that women have fought tooth and nail for their own competitive space much like trans athletes are now fighting to participate in competitive spaces. We shouldn’t, as a society, be undermining those efforts to put another marginalized group above them, and that’s what it boils down to for the majority of those opposing. It’s like affirmative action to a degree… you THINK you’re leveling the playing field, but it ends up being more detrimental than anything because it’s coming at the expense of others. Again, a good example of why size/weight/skill should be a determining factor in eligibility. A penis or a vagina won’t offer a competitive advantage in chess, but testosterone would certainly afford a competitive advantage in football. You’ll never see a defensive lineman that underwent puberty blockers and is a trans woman. Why? Because they’re not going to be the right size or possess the right strength. If you had a trans female that went through male puberty, though, that would be a lot more realistic seeing how they would have a more appropriate muscle and bone structure, right? I’m all for everyone getting a chance to play sports, but the reality is… there ARE some things that would need to be acknowledged and ironed out before anyone gets their feelings hurt or gets smashed on a field. The last thing I want to see is a woman get leveled and hurt because the NFL let her take a wide receiver position… or a trans male get hurt trying to keep up with everyone else… There’s nothing rewarding about that to anyone involved… Lia Thomas isn’t gonna feel like a winner when it dawns on her that her reach helped her rank better against smaller women, no different than I wouldn’t feel like a victor for knocking out a 95lb woman in a boxing match. On the flip side… imagine being those that competed against Lia Thomas. They competed their entire lives to rank up in competitive swimming, only to have their successes diminished by someone who for all intents and purposes jumped classes. That doesn’t elevate women or trans women in my opinion. If anything, it’s taking progress away from women and causing division.

That’s the problem with just green-lighting trans athletes without dialogue among the other competitors, it’s only done to their benefit and to save face when it comes to their brand image. It creates an environment where, no different than rule changes, decisions are made at the board table (pandering or capitalizing or legitimate desire for inclusion aside) and those actually involved or affected aren’t necessarily included in that process. The board didn’t consider the backlash from the athletes already there, they didn’t consider the fans that put them there at that board table, and they didn’t even consider the trans athletes they’re allowing or disallowing to participate. You know what they did consider though? Their public image and how shitty they’d look for not allowing trans athletes to compete, and that’s all they were worried about. I know how this reads and I don’t want y’all to take anything I’m saying as being hateful, but there’s a lot more to this than just giving trans folks the green light. Yes, y’all deserve equality and acceptance, but you don’t want that at the expense of others. Trust me. I’m a straight white male, and all I’ve heard about is how good I have it because of that, but no one wants to talk about how dangerous of a mentality that is to hold because of how deeply rooted in ignorance that statement really is. Y’all don’t wanna get to a point where you’re told that the only reason you’re X or Y is because you’re trans, and that’s what happens when actions are made to benefit one group without considering how it affects all of the others. What happens beyond that? Y’all end up having a shitty time to while you have people in your ear telling you “hey, you got a whole month, a special day, and can play sports now, good for you! You got it made!” when that’s the furthest thing from the truth. I hope that makes sense.

 

[Crystal]

that implies that she’s opportunistic

Or she wants to compete as the woman she is. We can't change what we were, but we shouldn't be forcibly excluded for it, either.

We shouldn’t, as a society, be undermining those efforts to put another marginalized group above them, and that’s what it boils down to for the majority of those opposing.

I'm not looking to draw similarities, the struggles are radically different, but you realize we're now back to breaking the colour barrier levels of logic, right? Lia Thomas is not and never should be compared to Jackie Robinson, not saying that, but the logic of "they can't play, they'll never fit in this other group's league" does sound awfully familiar...

They can't compete, they've got this, this and this. They lack this, this and this. Hypotheticals taken as gospel.

I’m all for everyone getting a chance to play sports, but the reality is… there ARE some things that would need to be acknowledged and ironed out before anyone gets their feelings hurt or gets smashed on a field.

There is no perfect solution, there never has been, there never will be, but to deny the chance because it might hurt feelings? That's 1940s logic again.

Yes, y’all deserve equality and acceptance, but you don’t want that at the expense of others.

So we sit on the sidelines and wait for those who don't know what trans is, who base their thoughts on hypotheticals and third or fourth hand information to decide if we get a chance to even try and get in the game?

Trust me. I’m a straight white male,

So was I. I could've shut my mouth, kept my position of privilege and lived a lie. I get the viewpoint, I get the dangers of where that mindset comes from, and I agree, it needs to change. Its pure ignorance and complacency.

 

[Raine]

Okay. Before we do this, ground rules:

• "You" is always the generalized, lazy-English you. Not the you-the-person you. Unless specifically attributed, I'm attacking the veracity of the claim and not the person supplying it. The difference between having a conversation and looking to lobotomize, if you will. I'm using my chosen name now - feel free to ask about it, it's super cute, I love it, and there are funny stories I can share <3 - and this is happening during a very mentally turbulent time. I'm going to be shifting back and forth between "talking" and "lobotomizing" so... please bear with me here...
• Usual caveats. My opinion, not a doctor/expert, I'm willing to Google but I am not necessarily worldly enough to be well enough versed in everything to have a confident grasp on broad details, much less granular shit. You wanna know literally anything about stupid niche video game trivia and I'm probably your girl, though!
• I can't read minds, tracing legitimate concerns and successfully separating them from paranoid fearmonger-induced doomsday scenarios isn't necessarily a science. It becomes harder to tell the two apart the longer this clown fiesta goes on.

But that's not the point. It's disingenuous to compare the worst example of something with the best example of something and say, "Look, they're the same!"

I'm very specifically not doing that, though. I'm asserting that the worst-performing professional male athlete in any given league is not better than the most impressive amateur female athlete. The exact point where an equilibrium between the two exists is intentionally beyond anyone's best guesstimate, but finding that threshold also misses the point.

There are women that are worthy competition that are not allowed to compete strictly because of their gender and all that entails. I assure you if the NFL has room for keeping absolute scum, abusive people on their rosters, then they have room to allow a qualified woman a chance to play. You can add whatever concerns or variables on top of that after the fact; until it's allowed to be possible, it simply doesn't matter.

There was a famous event where the Williams sisters said they could beat any male ranked lower than 200. Serena Williams, then just a teenager, challenged the 54 year-old tennis champion who was, at the time, ranked 203. He trounced her, trounced her sister, and then the girls revised their statement to "any male outside of the top 350". That's a pretty sizable power gap.

This is intentional FUD drug up and perpetuated by asshats starting last year because, shockingly, that's when this whole trans athlete shit kicked into high gear. The patriarchy is fucking afraid, as it should be. Here's a series of Google searches you can replicate with some additional things and commentary thrown in.

Q. Who was the man Serena Williams played against (Fun fact: If you stop typing after Williams, it wants to autofill "cheated with" - that's a feature, not a bug)
A. Karsten Braasch in the 1998 Austrailian Open, (allegedly) ranked 203

Q Who is Karsten Braasch
A. Karsten Braasch is a 56 year-old (YoB: 1967) former professional tennis player. He went pro in 1987 (age 20), and reached a Singles peak rank of 38 in June 1994 and Doubles peak of 36 in November 1997.

What we've learned so far
A teenage Serena Williams did not play against and lose to a (paraphrasing) geriatric nobody. In 1998 Karsten was 31, Serena Williams (YoB: 1981) was 17 and Venus Williams (YoB: 1980) was 18. Karsten was barely a year removed from being at his peak Doubles performance of Rank 36, a far cry from portraying him as a Rank 203 nothing. Going here and Ctrl+F'ing "203" brings up 13 results. In January of 1998, 203 does indeed appear as his Singles ranking - right next to 40 in Doubles. Serena is harder to pin down, Wikipedia indicates her first Rank 1 may have been July 2002 - a full four years later. An unsourced claim pegs her at Rank 20 during this exhibition match.

Via Wikipedia: Karsten was actually 30, Serena 16 and Venus 17. Karsten was a professional tennis player almost as long as either girl was alive at this point. If cishet chodes in the depths of the internet want to high-five themselves for a grown ass fucking man beating - and not perfectly, either - two underage girls. Well, sure, they can. But they should know how FUCKING PATHETIC they look doing so.

Thanks to video games, I know enough about tennis to know there are different types of courts. Which raises questions for me...

Q. What are some differences between male and female tennis courts
A. (Via Wikipedia) In women's tennis matches the ball is usually played without effect (less than lift) and games tend to play more from the baseline; typing is generally less powerful than men. The game is made in a more tactical speed and anticipation. The service is also less powerful; it is relatively less important than for men.

...and these answers aren't super great. I'm not trying to learn a new sport here. However, in layman's terms, I would perhaps hazard: The games look the same and move at relatively the same speed, but they aren't necessarily played the same. I would further hazard, perhaps, that if a video existed to watch one could visibly see the sisters adjusting on the fly and preventing complete shutouts. Which the argument, as presented in modern articles (about something that happened ~25 years ago...), do their best to make seem like the actual case.

What should be a case study for a triumph for women is instead being touted as both a reason for why women suck and why trans women - with the direct and obvious connotation that trans women are Acktually, Just Men In Dresses - shouldn't be allowed in women's spaces. Because clearly any tranny off the street can just roll up and curbstomp Serena Fucking Williams, you know? This Rank 203* Geriatric Nobody did it! Tee-fucking-hee. I swear to Christ if I find out Joanne was involved in resurrecting and spreading this shit...

I don't think it's fair to pit men against women in competitive sports because men, almost invariably, have a much larger physical and biological advantage. I don't think, outside of maybe technical sports like climbing, that there is any world record for competitive sports held by a woman that's better a record held by a man.

So, I would caution on jumping between different types of sports and events and competitions. They're all very much different things, and each is deserving of its own unique considerations - and within those considerations, even more granular considerations for different sport within those niches.

If, for example, we were to look at only World Record competitions - this would probably be true. However, I would presume many great male athletes exist specifically within competitions and yet do not have, and have never held, these World Records. Does this mean that they are similarly unworthy of thought, consideration and equal opportunity to compete? Should only the 5-ish viable candidates be invited and perform? And what specific World Records do we have in mind - are these things that women surely cannot ever achieve, or is it because too many non-sport obstacles stand in their way? The lack of free time, resources, adequate competition to further push boundaries? The argument strikes me as being a little too simple, is all.

Men and women come in all sorts of shapes and sizes; one generally being larger doesn't mean that this is always the case, and the nature of competition is the very act of sifting to find the diamonds. Specifically with regards to trans athletes, we're not all uniform either. There are small trans women and large trans men, and that - like everyone defaulting to CERTAIN THINGS about our bodies - doesn't have any room at the table. All trans people are exactly like me in these arguments: Large by male standards, aggressive by male standards, female anything cannot truly apply. Trans women are men; trans men don't exist.

I don't think that's the case, given that women were the ones who advocated for women's sports, because they wanted a level playing field and an outlet where they could be celebrated and showcase their own physical achievements without being overshadowed by men. Women's sports leagues and gendered sports are pro women, not the opposite. If we wanted to talk about compensation rates between men's and women's sports, that would be a different story, but we're not debating capitalism, after all.

Everything I do is debating admonishing Capitalism. It is impossible for it to not be interwoven into every facet of modern life. "Socially liberal, economically conservative" is a fucking lie. You cannot be socially liberal while championing a system in which extraordinary inequality is the norm. You cannot be pro-woman, pro-Black, pro-LGBT and vote Republican. They are all antithetical.

...What were we talking about... Oh, right.

Women's sports started because men wouldn't let women compete. They continue to exist because men still won't let women compete, despite all of the good they do. The NBA is not called the "MNBA," the MLB is not called the "MMLB," so on and so forth. Male is the default, the norm; women are on the side doing their own thing where "they belong." Women's leagues can be pro-woman and regular (men's) leagues can be anti-woman simultaneously.

Women leagues are universally seen as being inferior; they don't get as much mainstream coverage, they don't get as much promotion, they don't earn as much as remotely similar male counterparts. This invariably has a compounded negative effect: Women do not have an equal opportunity to pursue sports as a viable career path. Therefore, fewer women are able to compete. Ergo, the talent and competition pool is smaller. And ultimately, the gap widens more...

women should not be held up to some standard that's physically impossible for them to achieve.

Physically impossible blanket statement my tush, good sir.

Men don't "declare" a gap exists. Empirical evidence and biological differences prove that a gap exists in physical sports. Calling it "the appropriate level" is unfair. There's no appropriate/inappropriate level.

It is blatantly obvious that a gap exists. It is the entire point of the exercise to determine why that gap exists, to remove those obstacles, to collectively reach new heights and/or establish new sports where all can compete and thrive together. To insinuate that men are just better than women at everything, to constantly push where that line is to include more things women "just aren't built for," that this is biologically just the preordained and natural way of the universe, all while ignoring the fact that the people saying this were entirely male and to this day remain overwhelmingly male is... truly, disingenuous. Bonus points for damn near everything in this paragraph being able to apply 100% to trans folk - for being literally talking points for why we don't actually exist.

STEM is still overwhelmingly male not just because men (and women) convinced young girls for decades that they were literally too stupid to be good at or pursue it (WHILE SIMULTANEOUSLY IGNORING WOMEN'S CONTRIBUTIONS TO FUCKING NASA AND BEING THE "COMPUTERS" BEFORE SUPERCOMPUTERS WERE A THING), but because men actively create and maintain a toxic and insanely hostile atmosphere for women within the fields. I see nothing with sports that indicate it isn't more of the same old song and dance. The very fact that everyone has an opinion on trans women and no one can even fathom the fucking existence of trans men is all the proof I will ever need. But, y'know, if it wasn't - women don't need to be protected by men. If men are so certain they're better, everything should be an open category. If a woman gets in, she gets in. If she doesn't, then she doesn't. Problem solved.

...Except, again, for the part where men will also routinely intimidate, undermine, sexually harass/assault and outright rape and kill women in male-dominated spaces. All while being protected by other men, and systems established and operated by men. And yet somehow the women get all the blame. "She shouldn't dress like a slut," they say. It's never "No, asshole, you think like a fucking rapist." It's always "They're so emotional and temperamental," and not "Uh, says the aggro tosser what can't handle his alcohol." Or "BuT tHeY cAn GeT PrEgGeRs" - yeah no shit Sherlock, what can mothers not be normal human beings? And why the fuck is it that fathers shouldn't be with their newborn child too?

You know what? FUCK MEN. Yeah I said it, good for nothing babies. Touch their balls the wrong way and they're all like "waahhhh, my testies hurt, I want my mommy" - YOUR MOTHER IS THE ONE THAT KICKED YOU IN THE BALLS, YOU PUSSY. Wear a fucking bra already! ...Not mine though, it cost a lot and it's super cute.

What the fuck was I talking about again?

Yes I know I'm saying this whilst being temperamental and unreasonable but remember it's fine because I'm just a man in a dress. *flips table*

You also have cases like this, where a MtF trans lifted outlifted their nearest competition by 200kg:

Transgender powerlifter could be BANNED

The International Powerlifting Federation today issued the Canadian Powerlifting Union an ultimatum after a female competitor opened up about concerns over.

www.dailymail.co.uk

*flails hysterically*

I don't want to read tabloid trash from TERF Island. Let's see... Anne Andres...

And Google is full of the usual. Not a single decent article in sight, even. I'm sorry, I'm not reading this right now. Hit me with a TL;DR and an exact question/concern. A timeline would probably be good too; when the transition happened, what she's disclosed being on. How does the trans woman's record compare with this random Google search:

Women’s World Records

worldpowerlifting.com

If Canada has a subpar powerlifting scene, as an example, I don't think blaming a trans athlete for breaking local records is the actual "problem" there...

That seems a bit disingenuous. It's like saying that biological women who are naturally 6'7 are not able to compete in sports because their frame as too big and powerful and they're not able to adequately nourish it. Yes, transitioning deprives you of hormones to fuel your body as well as it possibly can, but you still have an advantage (on average) in muscle density, frame, and size.

Maybe. Maybe not. Every case is different, every sport is different, everything should be handled in an internally consistent manner. Virtually nothing is in practice.

20-ish year old Raine regretfully didn't exist. But if she did, and she could meet and compete against 20-ish year old [REDACTED], there would be no competition. Whether or not 20-ish year old Raine could roflstomp the local competition is debatable and unknown for certain. However, considering the existence of Tina as [REDACTED]'s frequent sparring partner, and the relative equivalent performance of Tina and [REDACTED], Raine would be facing an uphill battle. Anecdotal, sure, but...

She jumped over 540 ranks in one category. She may not have podiumed, but you cannot say that she wasn't given a massive advantage. If she had ranked higher pre-transition, is it possible that she would have mopped the floor with everyone?

What advantage specifically, though? Citing an increase in relative rank means nothing without context; the men's division will, at present, always be more fierce. The fact that that's true and that the person competed with the competition will also factor in. If you had a cis woman go through her entire life competing exclusively with the same men, and then she transferred into the women's division - what might the rankings reflect then? That's an entirely missing variable.

Distinct lack of FtM examples, too. We already know the effect PED can have on male frames in male-exclusive fields - what does testosterone do for female frames competing against these male frames?

 

[Smacktard]

This is intentional FUD drug up and perpetuated by asshats starting last year because, shockingly, that's when this whole trans athlete shit kicked into high gear. The patriarchy is fucking afraid

I first heard this story 3 or 4 years ago, and I know this for a fact because I discussed it with my wife when we first started dating.

As for "the patriarchy being afraid", I'm not sure how you reach that conclusion since the inclusion of MtF trans in sports affects only biological women, and biological women are the ones complaining that their MtF competitors have an unfair advantage and that their talents are not being recognized. There are plenty of stories of these women being shunned from athletics and hushed up. Yes, the patriarchy is afraid -- and women are being affected as a result.

Q Who is Karsten Braasch

Yes, Karsten was a professional player -- but nothing about what I said was wrong. He WAS ranked outside 200 for singles, and he played the Williams sisters in a SINGLES match.

I feel like we're getting a bit off-topic here. The main point is that men have a biological advantage over women in sports, and I think we can all agree to that, based on plenty of historical evidence of records across virtually every single physical sport.

If, for example, we were to look at only World Record competitions - this would probably be true

This is all you really need to look at. You have a plethora of empirical evidence that men outshine women in sports, but instead you choose to ignore it and focus on hypotheticals. I'm not trying to make this a "men are better than women!" thread. I don't care. I'm not that active. I don't even WATCH sports. But I refuse to deny reality -- the reality being, again, men, in general, are better at physical sports. They have a higher threshold for endurance, size, and strength.

You cannot be socially liberal while championing a system in which extraordinary inequality is the norm. You cannot be pro-woman, pro-Black, pro-LGBT and vote Republican

You can absolutely espouse views that are not completely shared by one part or another -- especially outside of the US, where there are more political options and not so strong a politician divide. I agree that I find it fucking frustrating when people say they're pro-environment, pro-LGBTQ, pro-life, and then vote Republican because orange man funny/muh economy. At the end of the day, people have to weigh their priorities, and I suppose they tend to vote mostly for what directly affects THEM (economy). Anyway fuck the Reps, they're trash thru and thru.

This invariably has a compounded negative effect: Women do not have an equal opportunity to pursue sports as a viable career path. Therefore, fewer women are able to compete. Ergo, the talent and competition pool is smaller.

While these things may be true, I think they have less of an effect than you'd suspect. People don't say "I want to become a world-famous soccer star because of the fortune" and then strive to achieve that goal. Most of them play for the love of the game.

Point in case: until VERY recently, minor league baseball players were paid less than minimum wage. Few people would watch their games, they would work insane hours, they'd have to take minimum wage jobs, and most of them would never make it to the big leagues. But still, they (some of them) continued to play, for the love of the game. Sure, some of them may have dropped out because they couldn't make ends meet, but I don't think, Major League Baseball has a few good candidates and players because it starts off not really economically feasible.

If you believe that men and women should compete together, you would have to ask yourself why women's tennis is a "slower" game, why the Venus sisters offered to challenge men, but only if they're outside of the top 200, no, 350, why world records are lower than men's. The answer lies not in hypotheticals, but in science and data: biological chemistry.

It almost seems to me like you're trying to make the argument that men and women are identical, and that the only differences that exist between them are societal, antiquated traditions. This strikes me as particularly odd coming from a trans person.

STEM is still overwhelmingly male not just because men (and women) convinced young girls for decades that they were literally too stupid to be good at or pursue it

I agree. There's no reason why women shouldn't be accepted in STEM. Women have proven themselves to be at least as academically competent as men. There's nothing to me that suggests otherwise. Yes there are fewer women in STEM, most probably for the reasons you indicated. Biological and chemical differences in men and women do not, I believe, account for that gap. There is no evidence that, on average, larger frame, less natural body fat, denser bones, higher levels of testosterone, a better ability to build muscle, and a higher threshold for building muscle contribute in any way to academic performance.

Except, again, for the part where men will also routinely intimidate, undermine, sexually harass/assault and outright rape and kill women in male-dominated spaces

...Is this supposed to be an argument for including women in men's sports? It seems to me that this is a good enough reason for women to have their own safe spaces where they can compete given that men really are trash, and I don't think we are going to have an enormous species-wide awakening at any time.

If Canada has a subpar powerlifting scene, as an example, I don't think blaming a trans athlete for breaking local records is the actual "problem" there

For all this talk of men dismissing women's achievements and abilities, you're doing an awful lot of it right now by implying that this person who would've otherwise placed first in the competition just needs to work harder, not be so bad. She was outlifted by 200kg -- that is MASSIVE.

But please, let's just ignore that she broke the world record for that weight class by a total 60kg. She outperformed and broke the WORLD RECORD on EVERY single lift except for the bench press (which was 2.5kg less than the world record). But yes, surely this just means that cis women aren't working hard enough. Blame Canada. Blame cis women. Accept this trans person who referred to themselves in anti-trans derogatory terms and then bashed their female competition.

Proof (see attached)

And Google is full of the usual. Not a single decent article in sight, even. I'm sorry, I'm not reading this right now. Hit me with a TL;DR and an exact question/concern. A timeline would probably be good too; when the transition happened, what she's disclosed being on.

If you want to engage in a facts-based debate, I don't see the point in ignoring an article because of the site that published it. Find something in the article that's inaccurate or outright false, and attack that instead. Attacking the source is literally a logical fallacy.

the men's division will, at present, always be more fierce. The fact that that's true and that the person competed with the competition will also factor in. If you had a cis woman go through her entire life competing exclusively with the same men, and then she transferred into the women's division - what might the rankings reflect then? That's an entirely missing variable.

This sounds like anti-women language as well, implying that women cannot have fierce physical competition amongst themselves, and that they need to compete against men to bring them to the next level.

Distinct lack of FtM examples, too.

Shouldn't this make something "click" for you. Ask yourself why MtF are dominating their female competition, while FtM are completely absent in male sports. What does that tell you about inherent physical advantages? Are the FtM just not trying hard enough?

 

[Raine]

You need to reply to this thread in order to see this content.

 

[Smacktard]

I very much do not want to be having these conversations at all.

I understand. I came into what was a safe space for our trans members and I started a discussion that maybe I ought to have had no right to start. I was genuinely curious, and I've heard MfT trans agree with my sentiment before, so I didn't realize it would be that controversial. If you like, I'll stop replying.

For what it's worth (if anything at all), I support trans rights in every aspect I can think of -- the only thing I disagree with is MtF competing against biological women in sports. That's it, and it's only because I perceive them to have an unfair advantage.

This quote from the article stands out, particularly:
"The top 20 men's competitors lift over 2,000lbs. If Andres competed against them, Andres wouldn't even rank in the top 6,000."
"'But Andres' deadlift was the second highest in women's weightlifting history. It doubly was shocking because athletes setting records in my sport are in their 20s and early 30s.'"

I would be a very happy woman if everyone wasn't laser focused on us because we're political red meat, fearmongers didn't see dollar signs when looking at us, and the underbelly of society didn't see all of the above as prime opportunity to eradicate more of us.

Absolutely. It must be incredibly exhausting being a political chess piece all the damn time.

Everything in that article is inaccurate and outright false by virtue of it being a tabloid rag that constantly misgenders us, deadnames us, mocks us and dehumanizes us at every available opportunity - and will even invent shit out of nothing to keep it going.

What is false about that article? Again, you're attacking the source, not its content.

It didn't misgender anyone though. It referred to MtF trans Andres as "her" and "she", it didn't deadname Anders, and the only comments that were disparaging to trans people were quotes from Andres herself.

And, again, I did do a Google search for this woman's name - and all that came up were outlets such as Fox News, the NYPost, and the rest of the usual suspects. This is... intended. Normal. Natural. This is the entire nutshell of what our experience is like.

I genuinely feel like, for better or worse, tabloid rags and conservative news media are the only ones to address these topics. You say that the patriarchy is to blame for trans discrimination, and I'm not disputing that, but there are also systems and measures currently in place that dissuade questioning and discussing these topics in more reputable media. The Daily Fail isn't the best source, I agree, but I specifically chose this source because it wasn't editorialized with extremely overtly anti-trans rhetoric, like misgendering, deadnaming, etc.

Anyway I'll peruse the attached screenshots tonight, but, it would still be useful to know what Anne is taking (or not taking!) and how long she's been transitioned/has been transitioning.

The article mentions that she started transitioning 20 years ago, in her 20s.

 

[Crystal]

I understand. I came into what was a safe space for our trans members and I started a discussion that maybe I ought to have had no right to start. I was genuinely curious, and I've heard MfT trans agree with my sentiment before, so I didn't realize it would be that controversial. If you like, I'll stop replying.

Please don't stop replying, we expected there to be points of contention in this thread and while we obviously have differing opinions on things, it's important those topics have a place in civil discourse.

For what it's worth (if anything at all), I support trans rights in every aspect I can think of -- the only thing I disagree with is MtF competing against biological women in sports. That's it, and it's only because I perceive them to have an unfair advantage.

This is the viewpoint that's most irritating, and it's not you that's irritating, it's the exclusionary nature of that comment. I can't deny what puberty does to us, we live with that hell daily, but we 100% need to find an inclusive solution somehow. To exclude trans women from women's sports is to suggest trans women aren't women, and that's hurtful and irritating. I'll stop there because it's off-point and doesn't tackle the problem, just voicing a thought from this perspective.

 

[Raine]

You need to reply to this thread in order to see this content.

 

[Raine]

Reply/breakdown/screaming at fucking clouds for the Daily Mail article:

IPF rules state that competitors must prove their gender identity with government-issued ID and disclose their testosterone levels, mirroring similar policies by international sports governing bodies.

Right off the hop, fuck y'all. Every single one of you. Yup.

The former is outrageous and means fucking nothing. The latter is common fucking sense, ya fucking jackass. Having them together merely tries to make them both seem legitimate, which they fuckin' ain't.

The move comes after April Hutchinson shared her frustration in a fiery opinion piece for DailyMail.com where she pleaded for fairness in the sport and slammed Andres for mocking her female rivals as 'weak.'

Because one article about this singular incident wasn't enough, we needed (at least) two.

She very specifically didn't plead for fairness, because fairness would apply to cis women too. She just kept saying over and over that Andres wasn't biologicially female (Man I love me some dogwhistlin') and shouldn't be allowed to compete on that basis alone. No talk about checking testosterone levels, no talk about checking for PED, no concern whatsoever that biological females can drop weight - yes, drop, not gain - and compete in different brackets (wherein they would ostensibly have a clear advantage in this particular sport because, SHOCKER, water weight is a thing).

'It's bodies that are playing sports, not identities. I don't care about everything else but when it comes down to sports, it's about bodies and biology and science, and strength, especially with powerlifting,' Hutchinson said today.

YAY MORE DOG WHISTLES BLOW HORNS I'M SO GLAD I DECIDED TO FUCKING DO THIS.

What she's saying is what they all say: No matter what you do, no matter when you transition, you weren't born female so you can never be female. To declare that my body is not part of my identity is fucking rich, considering bigoted cishet bitches routinely declare that parts of their anatomy are what make them women.

Stop moving the goal posts, shit or get off the goddamn pot. Commit to something, even if that's hate. ESPECIALLY if that's hate... because, once you do that, you belong to me. Forever.

'There was no policy. Anyone could walk up. A man could walk in tomorrow, identify "as a girl", and then just powerlift and then go back to being a man. No testosterone monitoring.'

Oh, see, this quote wasn't actually in the first article (/op-ed) - in fact it's still not there. This second article is part damage control because, I would imagine, putting yourself out there as a fucking transphobe actually doesn't do your reputation any more favors in your local community than a cheater's does.

And let's reemphasize that - at this stage, Andres is simply being accused of being a cheater. Being a trans woman has no bearing on this aside from being an open bigot. Again, if there was no monitoring, anyone competing actually could have done this.

Naturally the first time testosterone comes up it's paired with everyone's favorite Man In A Dress comment. That's not how any of this works, you know that's not how any of this works - you claimed your "ex-friend" looked like a woman to you, you fucking cunt - and if it was how it worked, YOU'RE A GODDAMN FUCKING CLOWN FOR TAKING ANY SORT OF PRIDE IN EVER HAVING PARTICIPATED BECAUSE THE CLOWN SHOES ARE SO LARGE NOTHING DONE HERE HAS EVER FUCKING MATTERED.

Jesus tapdancing Christ.

Last week, Andres, 40, who currently holds multiple powerlifting records in the women's division, competed at the Canadian Powerlifting Union's 2023 Western Canadian Championship. Her total powerlifting score was 597.5kg (the total sum of the heaviest weight lifted in squat, bench and deadlift.) This was more than 200kg than her next nearest competitor, SuJan Gill, at 387.5kg.

Oh cool, finally, the stuff any reputable outlet would have fucking started with. But still lacking in full and proper context - it is absolutely noteworthy that there's a 200kg difference between 1st and 2nd place. But, doing due diligence would also indicate the difference between 2nd and 3rd place, break down the scores to show where discrepancies were, and - again, because this is a regional competition - show where that places both nationally for Canada and worldwide.

Shocking headlines and shit are all well and good, but, if this trans woman is simultaneously roflstomping and getting roflstomped by cis women on both ends, I reiterate that - aside from the aforementioned clownshit - the problem isn't really the trans woman. It's the lack of competition leading to massive chasms between each individual participant.

Last year, Andres also ridiculed her female competitors in a video, questioning why women's bench is 'so bad', before saying another powerlifter has 'tiny little T-Rex arms'.

The footage also included the powerlifter referring to herself as a 't****y freak' so she 'doesn't count' in her 'controversial opinion'.

She said: 'Standard bench in a powerlifting competition for women, I literally don't understand why its [sic] so bad.'

And immediately back to trash.

The article has already painted her as the bad guy, so nothing she says has any merit and you can discard it. Just like we have once again failed to do due diligence and, oh, I don't know, see if what she's saying has merit beyond the trash talk? Kinda like this Raine chick is doing in this dark void over here right now, except without the ability to easily verify anything because she isn't literally speaking with competitors involved in the clown fiesta.

Speaking of which - is trash talking illegal for women? Man, fuck, I gotta tell my cis girls they can't talk shit about each other anymore. They're gonna be super disappointed. ...Shit wait can cis girls talk shit about trans girls still? What're the rules there? ASKING FOR A FRIEND.

At this year's competition, she stood on a podium with a T-Rex toy next to the only two women who would compete against her after two others dropped out.

I mean way to bury the fact that even if nobody dropped out, there are only 5 competitors to begin with. I mean 4 after they ban the trans woman, which I'm sure will totally just make everything fair and balanced all by itself.

BOY DO I LOVE HAVING CLAIRVOYANCE, I SHOULD GO TO FUCKING VEGAS.

But Andres could be out of the sport if the CPU follows through on the ultimatum, or risk being suspended if it doesn't comply.

Andres told DailyMail.com on Monday that she meets all the IPF requirements and has for the past 20 years, since she transitioned.

Gaston Parage, the IPF President, confirmed to DailyMail.com that it issued the ultimatum on Monday, states in its rules that 'no lifter should have an unfair and disproportionate advantage over another athlete'.

Ah good, we're back to actual substantive shit. If Andres is to be believed, that her testosterone is within acceptable levels, then maybe we can have an actual discussion on this once the International board has a chance to review.

It is possible the board has set the wrong guidlines, although if this were to be the case I would wonder why this is the only instance of a crazy(?) blowout. Surely if their guidelines were this far off every trans woman that competes in powerlifting - this is another piece of information that should be somewhere in this article but probably never crossed anyone's mind because that isn't the point - would be absolutely merc'ing fools left, right and center.

But also, if their rules are that out of whack... I once again have to ask how "fair and proportionate" the cis women are between one another.

'It is important to do that because we worked out the transgender policy we wanted to make sure that we don't discriminate against women. It is needed to have such a policy to make sure if a transgender compete, that it is fair the women. That is how we worked out the transgender policy,' he said.

'It's different in different sports, we are a strength sport so of course, it is different from other sport and so we worked out a long time this policy but Canada never did follow that policy.

'They risk to be suspended if they do not follow that policy.'

Okay, so first: Thanks for reminding me that I'm not a woman. Super appreciate that, guy. I'm just a transgender. CAN YOU AT LEAST JUST BE FUCKING HONEST AND CALL ME A FUCKING TRANNY TO MY FACE, YOU LIMPED DICK DONALD DUCK WANNABE. Wait, what, whoa. Why the Donald Duck hate? Where the fuck did that come from???

So, I mean, yeah. That little screed about sums it up. But to recap: Trans women aren't women, cis women are women. It's not okay to discriminate against women, but trans women aren't women so it's okay to discriminate against them. I mean if you continue the cycle enough you reach the part where I'm not actually even a person, just a thing, but I'm kind of having fun shitposting and don't feel like single-handedly starting Nuclear Armageddon here.

ALSO. Big also. Please note that transgender = trans woman. There is no such thing as trans man. Trans men do not exist. Unclear if it's acceptable to discriminate against people that don't exist, will get back to you on that once all the transgenders are dead properly discriminated against.

Alsoalso: For the first time, actually, I had a thought. Is the IPF wrong? It is distinctly possible that Canada's allegedly not following protocol because the protocol is too restrictive, but in so doing missed the mark. This is actually a major deal without further clarification; this story wants to make Andres out to be the bad guy, and y'know maybe she is, but the IPF may actually want to fully ban trans women (and maybe even a variety of cis women as a knock-on effect) and they're the Big Bad.

Just a thought. Guess we'll never know since there are no fucking journalists working at the Daily Mail. ...Or for this story, anyway. And every other story I have ever seen come out of DailyMailDotCom™.

Now, those who transition from male to female may compete against women if they have declared they are transgender and have a valid passport bearing a female gender. The declaration cannot be changed, for competition purposes for a minimum of four years, IPF guidelines state.

A number of other conditions are outlined, including testosterone levels being monitored by testing which are also required to stay below a certain limit.

Gaston Parage, IPF President, confirmed to DailyMail.com that a message had been sent to Canada requesting the official guidelines are followed.

'It is important to do that because we worked out the transgender policy we wanted to make sure that we don't discriminate against women,' he said.

'It is needed to have such a policy to make sure if a transgender compete, that it is fair the women. That is how we worked out the transgender policy,' he said.

'It's different in different sports, we are a strength sport so of course, it is different from other sport and so we worked out a long time this policy but Canada never did follow that policy. They risk to be suspended if they do not follow that policy.'

There isn't anything here to comment on. I'm posting this just so you can double-take and laugh, as I just did, that there's so little (oh my god I just saw the scrollbar on the side is ~10% down, what in the name of Christ is happening...) actual content to shit story that they basically actually posted all of this back-to-back for padding.

Hutchinson believes the policy is 'very strict' to get through.

'It's protecting women. The IPF have stepped in. They don't believe in discrimination against women, and it's not fair, so this policy is a step in the right direction for women and girls and sports,' she said.

'Right now, that means that Anne cannot lift. [She] will have to apply and go through all the testing, get all the medical documentation - it could take years.'

And, as far as I'm concerned, we've arrived.

This is the bread and butter of entitled cishet white women bitching about trans women in their sports.

It's not about equality, not about protection. This is strictly a means of winning. I can guarantee you if Andres was a cis woman, Hutchinson - WHOM I NEED POINT OUT WAS ALLEGEDLY A FRIEND OF Andres RIGHT UP UNTIL SHE LEARNED 15+ YEARS AGO THAT SHE TRANSITIONED - would still be bitching and trying to find a way to remove her if cisgender Andres was better than her.

This is literally the same phenomenon you see with Joanne (or as you know her: JK Rowling), where in an effort to spite "Man" she is willing to torch the entirety of "Woman."

Also reaffirms the above belief that the IPF guidelines are so ludicrous that no trans women and possibly a few, if not many, cis women would be barred entry.

'I had no idea he was a man. I refused to compete against him,' she said.

Hey I just found out that my friend lived life as a man for some period of time, a decade and a half before I met her.

But now that I know, he's definitely a man. Always has been. I'm calling him a man and I could always tell except when I literally couldn't and these things are just, like, so wrong. Gawd.

...So much for that whole not misgendering thing, huh? I was about to nope out but scrolled and we're nearly done with this horseshit exercise in absolute futility. I do, at least, hope someone besides Crystal is reading this so you can attain an understanding of how a trans woman I process things.

She said Andres competing has caused unequal playing field in her sport, with others who share the same view protesting at their events, or not participating at all.

'Andres was taking away podium spots and basically getting records, that shouldn't be.

Honey, if there are 3 podium spots for 5 competitors at this regional event - thanks again DailyMailDotCom™ for failing to do any due diligence so I can keep saying this as absolute fact even though it may not be - Andres isn't taking anything from anyone.

I still need those deets showing how 2nd, 3rd (and 4th and 5th, before they protested) stack up, though. 'Cause I'm super under the impression that each of those is a category unto themselves and there's no actual competition occurring here unless offered evidence to the contrary.

Mostly because I despise Hutchinson. I probably don't like Andres either, but GUESS WHAT, SHE WASN'T EVEN SPOKEN TO HOW CONVENIENT. I guess quoting some TikTok video or another counts in this day and age.

Back in my day...!

'It just doesn't give women a fair chance at sport, it's not an even playing field. Why spend money on federations or a sport when you're just set up to fail or to lose, when there's just so many physical advantages that a man has?

You could easily replace man with person and everything here would still apply. I literally cannot point out enough times that Hutchinson is actually only mad because she perceives Andres to 1) be a man and 2) better than her. She doesn't give the slightest flying fuck about the sport competition, where the money comes from or how it's spent (unless it's going to her, I guess), or the fact that it's a competition. Everyone is functionally set up to lose except the 1 person that doesn't, if you want to be an absolute pedant about it.

And I do, because I fucking cannot stand you, Hutchinson.

'There's a reason why men why sports have men and women categories. We do deserve like fair sports and to have men in our in our sport. I mean, it's, it's not fair.

'There's a reason why there's, Paralympics, there's different categories - men's, women's, weight classes.'

So, real quick: Does no one actually remember that the Paralympics exist specifically because they give hope to people? It's literally not about winning, it's about rooting for others - and having others root for you - while doing your best despite the debilitating experiences people have had.

To go there first, before remembering you're supposed to be Fair and Balanced, is incredibly telling. Please, Hutchinson, tell me more about how Handicapable and Transgender athletes are comparable. I implore you.

Anyway we've been going over why gendered sports are stupid in this thread already, and will continue to do so after this post, so no point doing it in this post.

'I do believe that transgender athletes should have a place to lift - they just need a separate category, they need to be in their own division,' she said.

'It has to be on a fair playing field. I was just in tears when I found out. I've lost so much sleep over the last two years knowing that there was a man competing in my federation.

Women can only gather 5 4 people, how fucking many TrAnSgEnDeR (singular, remember there are no trans men) do you think there are? ...1? BUT WAIT I THOUGHT YOU WEREN'T OKAY WITH Andres GETTING PODIUMS AND RECORDS SHE DIDN'T DESERVE?!

'When I first came out with this fight, I felt so alone, I had so much anxiety and fear. It's incredible what speaking up can do. So many people are afraid and shouldn't be.'

Aww, so brave! Look how brave she is, everyone! She had to speak up against the HOBGOBLINS in her neighborhood Federation!

If only all transphobes could be this noble, self-sacrificing and brave. Maybe they could... they could tattoo a symbol on themselves, so we could all know that they're just so brave.

And so that, like a Swastika, I can super easily identify people it's okay to [REDACTED].

incredibly fucking offensive Xeet (Sheet?)

...

It's a good thing this article isn't transphobic. I couldn't possibly begin to contain my excitement for one that was.

Last week, Hutchinson laid bare her feelings about feelings of about Andres competing in a local competition, taking out the top spot.

'A smirking 6'2" Anne Andres stepped on the podium at the Canadian Powerlifting Union's women's regional championship earlier this August to claim the gold medal.

'What was so funny, I'll never know. But certainly, women are being treated like a joke.

'Andres, a trans person, lifted 1,327lbs, calculated from the combined weight of three lifts: squat, bench and deadlift, and beat the closest competition by a whopping 470lbs.

'The top 20 men's competitors lift over 2,000lbs. If Andres competed against them, Andres wouldn't even rank in the top 6,000.

Disingenuous™.

'But Andres' deadlift was the second highest in women's weightlifting history. It doubly was shocking because athletes setting records in my sport are in their 20s and early 30s.'

At this point, Citation Fucking Needed. Maybe lead with that next time.

If there is a next time, with your merry band of 4. Whatever you thought you were going to accomplish, it doesn't mean anything now that you've exposed the entire organization as a sham. And I ain't even talking about the trans woman. Good job!

Now Hutchinson hopes the work she'd done campaigning will pay off, saying: 'This means more to me than any medal I could ever earn. This is actually probably my biggest achievement in life is to be able to change this policy.

Straight from the horse's mouth, folks. Marginalizing, excluding and Othering trans people, the way men have done to women, is her biggest - and probably proudest - accomplishment.

You can't make this shit up.

'I have two nieces that I want to protect, and they're six years old.

'When they grow up, they're gonna have a fair and safe sports for girls and women.'

Spoiler: They won't.

Special Thanks for contributing, Hutchinson! While we're at it what are your thoughts on climate change so I can guesstimate the probability your nieces even manage to make it to age 40 to be as disgusting as you?


Important sidenote: I'm not a fan of words like bitch and cunt, no more than I am words like tranny. But if I'm going to be adversarial, it somehow seems appropriate.

 

[Raine]

You need to reply to this thread in order to see this content.

 

[Raine]

You need to reply to this thread in order to see this content.

 

[Crystal]

Good news guys I'm definitely still alive and my fingers are still entirely intact.

You didn't think I could get more long-winded. But you were wrooong.

Never change

 

[Rachel]

this is the thread I understood that Raine is Warp

I am very dumb and did not realize it right away even with having a FFXIV avatar (again, because I am dumb)

But there is no mistaking these posts lol

This is also reminding me I was hoping Crystal's new username would be Artemis

I studied Mythology 101 Apollo has a twin sister!! it was perfect

 

[Mark]

this is the thread I understood that Raine is Warp

I am very dumb and did not realize it right away even with having a FFXIV avatar (again, because I am dumb)

But there is no mistaking these posts lol

Just look for the words. All of them. If there’s a few thousand… it’s her.

This is also reminding me I was hoping Crystal's new username would be Artemis

I studied Mythology 101 Apollo has a twin sister!! it was perfect

She’s boring now. One of those first-name using dumbasses.

 

[Raine]

You need to reply to this thread in order to see this content.

 

[Mark]

Also if there's a lot of "fucking" included, I've noticed...

I couldn’t mention that, because then it starts crossing over into grounds for confusion with some of my rants.

I've never met a sailor, but I feel I might fit in pretty well!

You’d fit in with ANY trades…person? Tradestrans? Transtrade? Yes, I’m hitting the bowl. Leave me be. I’m getting creative for you.

 

[Crystal]

this is the thread I understood that Raine is Warp

I am very dumb and did not realize it right away even with having a FFXIV avatar (again, because I am dumb)

But there is no mistaking these posts lol

Need a Warp Zone to get from beginning to end of a Raine post . But they're always fun reads!

This is also reminding me I was hoping Crystal's new username would be Artemis

I studied Mythology 101 Apollo has a twin sister!! it was perfect

I thought people would be more confused by that than by just being Crystal, lol. But it did cross my mind!!

She’s boring now. One of those first-name using dumbasses.

I was already a dumbass, just now with a shiny name I can tolerate to throw around

 

[Raine]

You need to reply to this thread in order to see this content.

 

[Rachel]

is it a FFVIII reference

For your amusement I am going to re-enact my thought process

Me: Okay cool we have a new GW member (not looking at post count or being a GW elder)
Me: Wow this person posts a lot around here
Me: Okay Raine I know a Rain at work who is trans
Me: Okay this person is posting in the trans thread, maybe they are trans too?? That's a coincidence
Me: This new person likes FFXIV, neat (lmaooo)
Me: I wonder if this is another IRL Crystal friend who joined
Me: Ohhhhh