VTS Mafia VTS Mafia Night 1/Day 1

[TD]

Except if they role claim just "townie" theres no one that can dispute it.

And if one of the two are a power role that they can claim, the jury will be more hesitate to kill them.

 

[Cole]

Sure, but it's not a very convincing reason to not execute them.

What reason would be convincing to you?

I don't wanna spoil a future game of Vashs, but all I will say is these trials are going to be hearsay only. None of the town roles in this game are immediately provable.

So if someone on trial just says "bro I'm Judge, I'll save you tomorrow if you get put on trial", is that convincing?

 

[Cole]

You could only know if a read was bad if you were evil

...what? I'm losing my faith in your ability in this game.

There are like 4 people misreading this game, AND misreading *me* personally. I don't have to be evil to tell you your reads are all horrid.

 

[Kat]

Even if the mob did take out two regular townies, they can now throw suspicion on anyone hinting at a role, saying maybe that person got killed and it's a mobster trying to claim it, and take out a powerful role that way. It's a win-win for them really.

Fuck it, I vote Cole.

 

[Cole]

And if one of the two are a power role that they can claim, the jury will be more hesitate to kill them.

Okay, so ticket to success if you're a mobster: "just say you're a town role that cant be proven for days, you won't die".

Is EVERYONE in wolf unfamiliar with lying?

 

[Cole]

Even if the mob did take out two regular townies, they can now throw suspicion on anyone hinting at a role, saying maybe that person got killed and it's a mobster trying to claim it, and take out a powerful role that way. It's a win-win for them really.

Fuck it, I vote Cole.

this is a phenomenal amount of credit you're giving me.

I mean, it's all way off, but it's a lot of credit. So thanks?

 

[TD]

Okay, so ticket to success if you're a mobster: "just say you're a town role that cant be proven for days, you won't die".

Is EVERYONE in wolf unfamiliar with lying?

Yes.

Which is why most won't take chances until undisputed evidence is in front of them.

 

[shortkut]

The only thing suspicious about Cole is that he seems to want the game to last longer… I’d have to reread the roles, but I don’t know if there is a role that benefits from

 

[Cole]

Yes.

Which is why most won't take chances until undisputed evidence is in front of them.

So everyones bad at the game? "Just lie, everyone will believe you."

 

[Kat]

What reason would be convincing to you?

I don't wanna spoil a future game of Vashs, but all I will say is these trials are going to be hearsay only. None of the town roles in this game are immediately provable.

So if someone on trial just says "bro I'm Judge, I'll save you tomorrow if you get put on trial", is that convincing?

Even if I kinda believe they're a regular townie, it's less of a blow to the town to kill them than a special role. I'm more likely to go for it if I'm on the fence. If they claim e.g. seer and I'm on the fence, I'm not likely to convict them.

 

[TD]

ASo everyones bad at the game? "Just lie, everyone will believe you."

 

[Cole]

The only thing suspicious about Cole is that he seems to want the game to last longer… I’d have to reread the roles, but I don’t know if there is a role that benefits from

I dont WANT the game to last longer, what? I leave for NYC on Sunday, and if I'm still alive and if the game is going, I'll have 4 hours on the train to play and then I'll barely even checking.

The game is *going* to last longer. There is a guaranteed no kill for todays phase, that's 1 extra day automatically without even requiring abstaining. Two: trials don't have to result in a guilty verdict, which means that's effectively a "wasted" day completely, we gain no in formation AND there's still a player alive.

The game should last longer. When did I say or even imply that I WANT it to?

 

[Zell 17]

What reason would be convincing to you?

I don't wanna spoil a future game of Vashs, but all I will say is these trials are going to be hearsay only. None of the town roles in this game are immediately provable.

So if someone on trial just says "bro I'm Judge, I'll save you tomorrow if you get put on trial", is that convincing?

Legitimately 4 out of the 5 townie roles are provable?

 

[Zell 17]

Yeah I mean there’s zero doubt this game is gonna last a long time

 

[Cole]

Even if I kinda believe they're a regular townie, it's less of a blow to the town to kill them than a special role. I'm more likely to go for it if I'm on the fence. If they claim e.g. seer and I'm on the fence, I'm not likely to convict them.

Hard disagree.

It's a numbers game, and we're likely down 2 townies. You're willing to risk another townie? Theres only 15 people in this game, and at that point the numbers are already getting dangerous.

If you take a roleclaim of "Judge" seriously and are willing to consider it gospel, then "townie" should be the same.

 

[Kat]

this is a phenomenal amount of credit you're giving me.

I mean, it's all way off, but it's a lot of credit. So thanks?

It's not that much credit. If they killed a special role, it's an obvious play to impersonate it. If they know they're going to impersonate a role they killed, it makes sense to lead people away from thinking about the implications of a role being killed. And if they were going to get a special role and got unlucky, then that's the best way to make the most of it that I can think of.

 

[Cole]

Legitimately 4 out of the 5 townie roles are provable?

what does this have to do with anything? ...at all?

Is this that old mob strategy where someone just states things that are 100% factual that can't be disputed in an effort to fly under the radar?

 

[Local Hero]

Hmm, maybe. (Trigger warning: math incoming. Disclaimer, it's 5 am and I'm only awake because of a nightmare so don't hold it against me if I fuck this up.)
15 players, 4 are mob, so 11 unknown, 5 of which have a special role. If they can't check roles and killed two people blindly, it's 6/11 times 5/10 chance they hit a normal townie twice, which is only 27%. And the odds are even less if they were able to role check. So we should actually assume they did get someone with a role.

Still making my way through, but last time a player introduced questionable statistics, they were the big bad.

Kat = Don?

 

[Cole]

It's not that much credit. If they killed a special role, it's an obvious play to impersonate it. If they know they're going to impersonate a role they killed, it makes sense to lead people away from thinking about the implications of a role being killed. And if they were going to get a special role and got unlucky, then that's the best way to make the most of it that I can think of.

Yeah that is way too much credit.

If anyone (you included) are under the impression my strategies run that deep, you're severely mistaken. Every now and then I start a game we're I'm not evil with the vaguest of strategies, and then improv the rest of the way. That game I was Gunner I even admitted at one point I had absolutely no idea what the end game of what I was doing was, just that I would "find out when I get there".

 

[shortkut]

I dont WANT the game to last longer, what? I leave for NYC on Sunday, and if I'm still alive and if the game is going, I'll have 4 hours on the train to play and then I'll barely even checking.

The game is *going* to last longer. There is a guaranteed no kill for todays phase, that's 1 extra day automatically without even requiring abstaining. Two: trials don't have to result in a guilty verdict, which means that's effectively a "wasted" day completely, we gain no in formation AND there's still a player alive.

The game should last longer. When did I say or even imply that I WANT it to?

It’s either that or you’re guilty. It didn’t read to me like you were fully guilty, you’re less argumentative when you’re guilty

 

[Kat]

It's a numbers game, and we're likely down 2 townies. You're willing to risk another townie? Theres only 15 people in this game, and at that point the numbers are already getting dangerous.

What's the alternative? We don't have enough hard info to ever be sure of anyone.

trials don't have to result in a guilty verdict, which means that's effectively a "wasted" day completely, we gain no in formation

Interesting you think we'd gain no information from a trial just because no one was convicted. I think a trial will give lots of info either way. It's probably our best way of gathering info really.

 

[Cole]

It’s either that or you’re guilty. It didn’t read to me like you were fully guilty, you’re less argumentative when you’re guilty

WHAT?!

Did I wake up into a world where no one knows how to play this anymore AND forget any history whatsoever?

In the very first game, FQs, I was wolf, and the ENTIRE GAME revolved around you and I arguing relentlessly on day 1.

The second time I was wolf, Zell 3, I was seered 248 times and was immediately playing on the defensive.

AND FURTHER

How are those two things the options? Either I WANT the game to last long or I'm evil?

 

[Zell 17]

Hey Cole what were you up to last night

 

[TD]

This is what I was waiting for.

 

[Kat]

Yeah that is way too much credit.

If anyone (you included) are under the impression my strategies run that deep, you're severely mistaken. Every now and then I start a game we're I'm not evil with the vaguest of strategies, and then improv the rest of the way. That game I was Gunner I even admitted at one point I had absolutely no idea what the end game of what I was doing was, just that I would "find out when I get there".

I'm not saying you planned it all out like that at the beginning. And maybe it was somebody else's idea and you're just the voice of it because you usually talk a lot anyway so it's less suspicious, who knows?

 

[Cole]

I am so baffled by this game already.

What's the alternative? We don't have enough hard info to ever be sure of anyone.

No, we don't. Which is why you saying "well if someone just says they're civi, without any role, we just kill them!" is even more fucking confusing.

Interesting you think we'd gain no information from a trial just because no one was convicted. I think a trial will give lots of info either way. It's probably our best way of gathering info really.

We'd gain no hard evidence. All we'd get is people claiming their roles. We'd get no death, no role reveal. We would gain no 100% factual irrefutable evidence. That was the point.

 

[Zell 17]

Hey @VashTheStampede what happens if the vigilante targets the Don

 

[Zell 17]

Also important @VashTheStampede can someone who is in jail be killed by the mafia/vigilante? Can a jailed mafia member still communicate with the mafia?

 

[Kat]

No, we don't. Which is why you saying "well if someone just says they're civi, without any role, we just kill them!" is even more fucking confusing.

That's not what I said. I said if I was already on the fence, them role claiming could push me to let them off the hook and a lack of a claim wouldn't. Convicting townies is bad, but if we never convict anyone, then we definitely lose.

 

[Zell 17]

@Cole
@shortkut
@canadaguy
@Local Hero
@Fire Queen
@Ants!
@Tubby23
@Benzine
@TD
@Joseph Snapple
@Kat
@Alu Capone

What were you up to last night??

 

[Kat]

Yeah, I'm getting pretty suspicious of Cole. I feel like he's leading us astray when he should know better. But he's always suspicious so

@Local Hero what do you disagree with on this post? You don't think Cole is being suspicious and you agree with his take on the game? (He reacted to this post.)

 

[TD]

 

[Kat]

What were you up to last night??

Nothing. How about you?

 

[Zell 17]

Nothing. How about you?

Frantically waiting for a letter that never came

 

[shortkut]

Cole doesn’t seem to understand that this is mafia not wolf. All bets are off

 

[VashTheStampede]

Hey @VashTheStampede what happens if the vigilante targets the Don

He drops his oranges all over the street while his son fumbles his gun.

I mean, Don lives, but the Vigilante would know what went down.

 

[Zell 17]

@VashTheStampede the cleaner role states that we won’t learn the roles of dead people. We also did not learn the manner of their deaths. If the clearer ability is not used, will we learn the manner of death for players or just their roles?

 

[VashTheStampede]

Also important @VashTheStampede can someone who is in jail be killed by the mafia/vigilante? Can a jailed mafia member still communicate with the mafia?

The mob cannot reach someone in jail to kill them with the current roles that have been released for this game.

Jailed mobsters can still communicate with their co-conspirators.

 

[Cole]

Hey Cole what were you up to last night

discussing with the mob who we should kill and why using confusion is a dumb idea. remember?

I'm not saying you planned it all out like that at the beginning. And maybe it was somebody else's idea and you're just the voice of it because you usually talk a lot anyway so it's less suspicious, who knows?

it's a dumb idea. I wouldn't have gone along with it.

That's not what I said. I said if I was already on the fence, them role claiming could push me to let them off the hook and a lack of a claim wouldn't. Convicting townies is bad, but if we never convict anyone, then we definitely lose.

so if you're on the fence about someone, and they say "I'm a townie", you vote to kill. if they say "I am the gumshoe and I investigated Tommy Boy who turned out to be a civilian and later died", your stance is they are now believable and should therefore be spared?

you heard her, mobsters. just role claim and you win! zell was right all along, it doesn't matter who's playing, just role claim!

 

[Local Hero]

All right let's do something fun instead: Cole said what he'd do if he were playing the mob. What would your play be if it were you? Would you use abilities the first night or keep your cards close to your chest and wait for the best moment?

I would personally wait a bit because everything is new and confusing.

And by the by, I don't understand the bandwagon on Cole, Shortkut, Kat, TD, Shortkut, Zell, maybe others, have all contributed in trying to understand the game and giving hypothesis about what makes sense. I haven't seen anything in Cole's post that screams "leading the town into the wrong direction".

If anything, Kat is, but I'm not feeling that way strongly about anyone.

TD is pulling the vote for everyone tactic

 

[VashTheStampede]

I'm going to try and keep up with all the (very good) questions but I just found out my company is being acquired so I'm a little distracted for the next little while.

 

[Local Hero]

@Local Hero what do you disagree with on this post? You don't think Cole is being suspicious and you agree with his take on the game? (He reacted to this post.)

Just replied, I'm slow

 

[Cole]

Cole doesn’t seem to understand that this is mafia not wolf. All bets are off

if this is a joke about me using the wrong terms, then yeah, my brains not sorting the names very well atm.

 

[Ants!]

Before I even find the thread there’s already four pages to read?

Voting shortkut

 

[Local Hero]

I'm going to try and keep up with all the (very good) questions but I just found out my company is being acquired so I'm a little distracted for the next little while.

Good luck sir

 

[Zell 17]

you heard her, mobsters. just role claim and you win! zell was right all along, it doesn't matter who's playing, just role claim!

My god let it rest. I never said anything like that. I’m voting Cole. Put me on the jury and I convict him even if he’s town.

 

[VashTheStampede]

@VashTheStampede the cleaner role states that we won’t learn the roles of dead people. We also did not learn the manner of their deaths. If the clearer ability is not used, will we learn the manner of death for players or just their roles?

For at least this first game you will only get roles and maybe some hints as to what happened within the flavor of the announcement, depending on the situation.

 

[TD]

discussing with the mob who we should kill and why using confusion is a dumb idea. remember?

I know you're "joking" but is it bad that I could see this actually happening?

TD is pulling the vote for everyone tactic

Astute observation. This way, when the mob kills me I can claim I knew all along and that's why I voted for them.

 

[Cole]

My god let it rest. I never said anything like that. I’m voting Cole. Put me on the jury and I convict him even if he’s town.

You literally said exactly that, but that's okay. Seems everyone bought it.

 

[Cole]

I know you're "joking" but is it bad that I could see this actually happening?

No, it isn't. Because I would have.