Zell Wolf Tough shit

[VashTheStampede]

Tommy you crushed it, my dude

 

[Tommy Boy]

@Benzine Confidence totally used up by the time it was me vs you. I knew I was fucked but tried to keep going. If I didn't like you as a person so much I would be annoyed at how easily you seem to play this game. GG friend.

 

[VashTheStampede]

Jon's got him a nice little winning streak going

 

[Tommy Boy]

Fake Chart:


Real Chart:


This was the hardest thing of all, but helped me convince myself I was a townie.

 

[A Vaguely Ambiguous Username]

@Benzine Confidence totally used up by the time it was me vs you. I knew I was fucked but tried to keep going. If I didn't like you as a person so much I would be annoyed at how easily you seem to play this game. GG friend.

Now no one can instantly just trust you to be good or an obvious wolf. Future games will be great for you.

 

[Jawneh]

This was the hardest thing of all, but helped me convince myself I was a townie.

I don't think I've managed to do that properly yet while playing a wolf. It's tough man.

 

[A Vaguely Ambiguous Username]

I don't think I've managed to do that properly yet while playing a wolf. It's tough man.

Have you tried playing like shortkut and just not reading anything about the roles? You might forget what team you're on

 

[Raine]

As long as you know, no one will ever hold a lie told in game against your real life character

@Tommy Boy - Can confirm. I lie my fucking ass off every single game and everyone (hopefully ) understands that's just a game thing.

But now that the cat's out of the bag, I gotta say - the tables are the key. You ain't gotta be a good liar yourself, you just need something to lie for you. Enter the tables. If you just look at the very accurate information shown through voting patterns and simply who voted where, I guarantee you that you'll hit townies on the regular without meaning to. And triply so if you do mean to!

Source: Tables were my schtick on the OG forum and that's how I used them to try and play before 1) realizing the above and 2) really getting to know anyone and how they played and thought.

 

[Jawneh]

Have you tried playing like shortkut and just not reading anything about the roles? You might forget what team you're on

Honestly, I'd love to try something like that. I'd start a new PM with Zell without my role info, then just tell him to do my thing to x or something. Then be surprised when I somehow kill myself.

 

[Jon]

So then I did the next best thing (because, sorry love, I was not imprisoning Jon lol):

Why not?

Fuck that shit, Jon. You da MVP.

TURN THAT CONFIDENCE DIAL UP TO 11

GO GO GO

I don't know what you saw, but I did absolutely everything wrong in this game. It was demoralizing.

But the wolves now have a Doctor they must kill (or avoid/manipulate forever),

I have no idea why they didn't until I saw this thread and see how devalued TD makes the role. Not sure why a protection is devalued, but whatever.

If only Jon protected Vash lol.

He used his potions, I didn't see a reason too.

Also - it's so weird to me that Jon as a Doctor keeps thinking he's such a high priority kill.

I seriously thought a protection role was more damaging. But clearly I suck, so it makes sense now.

Or that he proved himself a townie early on lol.

I never said I proved it. I felt I did what i said I would. I was hoping for a protect SOMEWHERE. But TD is in my head, clearly. Manipulated me perfectly.

My favourite part was when he said he helps the town as a wolf too.

I did help the town when I was a wolf...

Also I just noticed I 100% slipped on Day 1 to Jon lmao

I didn't see it. Probably partly because 1000 posts.

Plus Jon just did it.

I trusted you and you used that against me. Fair play. I can't just give you that benefit now, sadly.

Jon isn't going to protect an avenger,

Why I didn't protect Alu.

Jon's got him a nice little winning streak going

Out of absolutely nothing I did right in either game.

I was happier after the wolf game because I felt I played well, but was quickly reminded how shitty I was. This game I felt I played incredibly poorly and reading the dead thread reminded me how badly I played. Too easily manipulated. Impossible time convincing anyone of anything. Inability to understand the nuances of each role. I'll keep chugging along, but this was a deafening reminder of needing to talk less and play the long game more.

 

[Benzine]

i didn't even know there was a plan. i don't recall signing up for one.

but i just had a lot of faith in jawneh and kut at the end, i thought going for dean would help... i didn't want to look at tommy and see "good". i wanted to see good in other places.

ggwp all xoxoxo @Tommy Boy

 

[Tommy Boy]

This game I felt I played incredibly poorly and reading the dead thread reminded me how badly I played. Too easily manipulated. Impossible time convincing anyone of anything. Inability to understand the nuances of each role. I'll keep chugging along, but this was a deafening reminder of needing to talk less and play the long game more.

Hey bud I'm not sure if you know this but uh you won

 

[TD]

I seriously thought a protection role was more damaging. But clearly I suck, so it makes sense now.

I didn't see it. Probably partly because 1000 posts.

It was when you helped me see your role claim I literally told you don't worry you're not a target.

Oops.

Also don't be so hard on yourself, in a world where I'm a townie those were good picks.

 

[Kat]

I was happier after the wolf game because I felt I played well, but was quickly reminded how shitty I was. This game I felt I played incredibly poorly and reading the dead thread reminded me how badly I played. Too easily manipulated. Impossible time convincing anyone of anything. Inability to understand the nuances of each role. I'll keep chugging along, but this was a deafening reminder of needing to talk less and play the long game more.

I don't think you played terribly. I found you suspicious because you were claiming something unprovable and just happened to miss your protections every night. Which is absolutely a thing that can really happen, but it's also a common thing to claim as a wolf.

I wouldn't say that protection roles aren't valuable. It's more you're underestimating the value of unproven townies to the wolves. They have to keep townies alive that the town will possibly lynch.

 

[A Vaguely Ambiguous Username]

He used his potions, I didn't see a reason too.

At the time he was the only proven townie who didn't have a kill retaliation and therefore an easy target for the wolves to go after.

That's about the only reason to do it.

 

[Jawneh]

He used his potions, I didn't see a reason too.

It's those things where you look at the strong players, already confirmed roles, what roles have been claimed, and if people voiced whether someone should be protected or not. Then try to make your own choice between all that. Confirmed townies are generally more valuable even if they've already unloaded.

I was happier after the wolf game because I felt I played well, but was quickly reminded how shitty I was. This game I felt I played incredibly poorly and reading the dead thread reminded me how badly I played. Too easily manipulated. Impossible time convincing anyone of anything. Inability to understand the nuances of each role. I'll keep chugging along, but this was a deafening reminder of needing to talk less and play the long game more.

You might've played your protections poorly, but you played the role of a townie well. Hence why you were fairly well trusted. Or at least the least sus between all the non confirmed people lol. It's good stuff.

i didn't even know there was a plan. i don't recall signing up for one.

but i just had a lot of faith in jawneh and kut at the end, i thought going for dean would help... i didn't want to look at tommy and see "good". i wanted to see good in other places.

I did drop the plan down before end of day 4. Seemed good enough without knowing what the last wolf was for certain.

I did think you were most likely good after you have us Kelly. If there was no voodoo wolf and I would've had to think around guardian and alpha, I'd have had a harder time trusting you as it wouldn't have been as bad to sacrifice one wolf at that point for the next couple days.

 

[Benzine]

What or who is next?

 

[Jon]

Hey bud I'm not sure if you know this but uh you won

Winning is nice, and my ultimate goal, but I'm evaluating my personal performance, which was deafeningly bad.

It was when you helped me see your role claim I literally told you don't worry you're not a target.

Oops.

Also don't be so hard on yourself, in a world where I'm a townie those were good picks.

They weren't though. Not only were they mostly wolves, I overvalued my role from day one and SHOULD have gotten me killed by the town.

You telling me I'm not a target was simply read as a "you're not an important role."

I wouldn't say that protection roles aren't valuable. It's more than you're underestimating the value of unproven townies to the wolves. They have to keep townies alive that the town will possibly lynch.

In a game where the wolves essentially knew everyone's roles from the get, I still thought a protection role was important to get off the board. Again, I seriously overvalued my role. And missing every target drives home how bad I was.

 

[Tubby23]

What or who is next?

Personally I need a game back playing before I can host one, just to make sure work and being fully active here goes OK

 

[Benzine]

Personally I need a game back playing before I can host one, just to make sure work and being fully active here goes OK

posting and reading are overrated honestly. i'll keep a fact board for you next game.

 

[TD]

They weren't though. Not only were they mostly wolves, I overvalued my role from day one and SHOULD have gotten me killed by the town.

You telling me I'm not a target was simply read as a "you're not an important role."

I'm glad that's how you interpreted it because I thought I slipped lol.

Again, you're being far too hard on yourself. What you did with your role aside, you balled out, were clearly protown, and no one really came for you.

 

[Jon]

At the time he was the only proven townie who didn't have a kill retaliation and therefore an easy target for the wolves to go after.

That's about the only reason to do it.

I didn't see it that way. I figured a confirmed townie with nothing left wasn't a threat. Again, shows how bad I am at evaluating targets.

 

[VashTheStampede]

Main reason I thought you'd protect me, @Jon was because you had me and Alu marked as a couple in your notes and I thought you'd try and protect 2 townies at once, that's all.

A win is a win though.

 

[A Vaguely Ambiguous Username]

I didn't see it that way. I figured a confirmed townie with nothing left wasn't a threat. Again, shows how bad I am at evaluating targets.

Anything that can take away the ability to trust people is always a good move.

Townies who can kill are target priority 1
Proven townies (who can't kill back) are target priority 2

 

[Jon]

Main reason I thought you'd protect me, @Jon was because you had me and Alu marked as a couple in your notes and I thought you'd try and protect 2 townies at once, that's all.

A win is a win though.

I had you guys pegged, sure, but you had used your potions and Alu was an avenger, who needs to die to hit a target.

I undervalued the role of a known townie with no power. I won't moving forward, but that was why.

I still would have needed to guess right between you and Alu.

 

[A Vaguely Ambiguous Username]

I had you guys pegged, sure, but you had used your potions and Alu was an avenger, who needs to die to hit a target.

I undervalued the role of a known townie with no power. I won't moving forward, but that was why.

I still would have needed to guess right between you and Alu.

Oddly the wolves didn't figure it out lol.

They started to turn on eachother apparently because of it. I even pointed out that because we were listed in your sheet that everyone should know at that point.

 

[Kat]

And missing every target drives home how bad I was.

Nah man, don't beat yourself up over that. In my game, townies all protected evil people the first night. In this game, Raposa protected his own murderer. I had a protection role once and did live for a few days, and I didn't save anybody. The wolves have different information than you do, and different people will go after different targets, so it's tough to guess their target.

 

[Jawneh]

Again, shows how bad I am at evaluating targets.

At least you're not @VashTheStampede as marksman.

Pre-redemption Vash that is lol.

 

[A Vaguely Ambiguous Username]

It's super hard to get it right. That's part of the reason why I doubted Local so much. Hitting Bell Ringer that early in the game?

 

[TD]

Oddly the wolves didn't figure it out lol.

They started to turn on eachother apparently because of it. I even pointed out that because we were listed in your sheet that everyone should know at that point.

We figured out Vash was Cupid'd Day 1.

We then saw him come to Benzine's defense.
Then when Dean was gonna be lynched and threatened Vash - Benzine was suddenly clearing him, while kut and Vash pushed off Dean too.

We thought it was Vash and Benzine - had tunnel vision.

Even when I started accusing my fellow wolves, I was met with it's clearly Vash/Benzine.

We all ignored it when we really should've reconsidered the pairing.

 

[TD]

It's super hard to get it right. That's part of the reason why I doubted Local so much. Hitting Bell Ringer that early in the game?

Fun fact.

The only successful real Bell Ringer exposed me as a wolf.

 

[Kat]

We figured out Vash was Cupid'd Day 1.

We then saw him come to Benzine's defense.
Then when Dean was gonna be lynched and threatened Vash - Benzine was suddenly clearing him, while kut and Vash pushed off Dean too.

We thought it was Vash and Benzine - had tunnel vision.

Even when I started accusing my fellow wolves, I was met with it's clearly Vash/Benzine.

We all ignored it when we really should've reconsidered the pairing.

I read Zell's post of who was paired and I also somehow thought it was Vash and Benzine.

 

[A Vaguely Ambiguous Username]

Fun fact.

The only successful real Bell Ringer exposed me as a wolf.

And got @Ben a badge in one of like only 2 games he's played.

 

[Kat]

I read Zell's post of who was paired and I also somehow thought it was Vash and Benzine.

That's why I posted early in this thread "lol Dean switched from Vash to Benzine".

 

[TD]

I've been bad 4 out of 5 last Zell games:
- Burned to death by Arsonist
- Exposed by Bell Ringer, lived two more days then killed by witch
- Illusionist exposed by wolves
- Got killed by avenger

 

[Raine]

Why not?

Because you did what you were supposed to do, and what you said you would: You openly claimed being the Doctor.

I didn't live long enough to start working through who was lying about their role, I was still working on a (in hindsight, very accurate) list of people that hadn't claimed. There would be no way I would come for you like this when, to that point, you had also not done anything particularly suspicious.

If you're unaware, if the Jailer or Warden imprisons you then you can't use your powers at night. So also, the Jailer/Warden should specifically avoid nabbing protectors, Seers and night killers unless they're certain the person is lying or certain that player is going to get night killed themselves.

I don't know what you saw, but I did absolutely everything wrong in this game. It was demoralizing.

About the only thing you did wrong was telegraph who you were going to protect a couple of times.

The post you quoted was in reference to you starting to piece together what the wolf team actually looked like, and what they had done. Having a Blind Wolf, having a Wolf Seer, maybe doing some false claiming. You're overthinking a bit too much, and second-guessing as a result.

You should absolutely never think about becoming a doctor, but you're not a bad wolf player.

I have no idea why they didn't until I saw this thread and see how devalued TD makes the role. Not sure why a protection is devalued, but whatever.

Ideally wolves actually do want to remove protectors, once killers are dealt with. In this game type especially getting a single nightly kill blocked is very nearly game-ending for the wolves.

But if the wolves know who the protector(s) are, they don't need to worry as much about killing them because they can either manipulate them into defending specific targets or make educated guesses about who they'll target.

 

[Kat]

About the only thing you did wrong was telegraph who you were going to protect a couple of times.

I agree with this.

But if the wolves know who the protector(s) are, they don't need to worry as much about killing them because they can either manipulate them into defending specific targets or make educated guesses about who they'll target.

Yep. You only need to worry about them if you're unable to kill a target you need to because of them. Eventually the numbers dwindle enough that it becomes a problem, but in the early game, a single protector isn't that big of a deal. If the SK is still around, they can even be beneficial.

You should absolutely never think about becoming a doctor, but you're not a bad wolf player.

I literally lol'd at this.

 

[shortkut]

Sounds like the town is gonna pull this one out. Oddly kut setting vash and I as a couple may have set the town up nicely.

Let’s pretend I planned it that way

Also kut was willing to buy in on it for the same reason. And I signaled to him out in the open that vash and I were both town (quoted him and said "yeah you may as well vote with the town).

i noticed. It’s also why I later said only one member of the couple hinted that they were townie… Vash never dropped hints for me

How the fuck was CUPID able to influence the town so much??

Spoiler

The power of love is a curious thing
Make a one man weep, make another man sing
Change a hawk to a little white dove
More than a feeling, that's the power of love
Tougher than diamonds, rich like cream
Stronger and harder than a bad girl's dream
Make a bad one good, make a wrong one right
Power of love will keep you home at night
You don't need money, don't take fame
Don't need no credit card to ride this train
It's strong and it's sudden and it's cruel sometimes
But it might just save your life
That's the power of love
That's the power of love
First time you feel it, it might make you sad
Next time you feel it, it might make you mad
But do be glad baby when you've found
That's the power makes the world go 'round
And it don't take money, don't take fame
Don't need no credit card to ride this train
It's strong and it's sudden, it can be cruel sometimes
But it might just save your life
They say that all in love is fair
Yeah, but you don't care
But you know what to do (to do)
When it gets hold of you
And with a little help from above
You feel the power of love
You feel the power of love
Can you feel it
Mmm-hmmm
It don't take money and it don't take fame
Don't need no credit card to ride this train
Tougher than diamonds and stronger than steel
You won't feel nothin' till you feel
You feel the power
Just feel the power of love
That's the power
That's the power of love
You feel the power of love
You feel the power of love
Feel the power of love

When I jumped off of Dean, I didn't expect shortkut to successfully bully the rest of the town from jumping off him either. I woke up to see the results and facepalmed. I was simply voting Dean for self-preservation. Didn't do me much good consider shortkut votes to kill me the next day anyway, the shit

#sorrynotsorry

Also kut kept saying he wanted me there for the end, which was also hilariously fitting.

I didn’t want you to kill me. I kept calling you a wolf

I can't wait to chat with kut about this game when it's all over.

I’m here!

 

[TD]

Hahahaha.

Oh my, that's not what I was expecting in the Spoiler.

 

[shortkut]

I'm trying to think if I've ever been lynched outside of the first Mafia game when I was straight up outed as mafia on the second day.

I don’t recall that happening

Vash and Alu deduced it was kut pretty quickly because I think he dropped a bunch of on their early posts day 1.

That was by design

 

[A Vaguely Ambiguous Username]

I don’t recall that happening

That was by design

Lol Cole gumshoed me. You merely outed the rest of the team.

 

[shortkut]

I finally lied.

You barely lied. Lots of statements phrased as questions and hypotheticals. That’s what made me more suspicious of you at the end. It was like you knew you had to lie but tried to do it without actually lying

 

[shortkut]

i didn't even know there was a plan. i don't recall signing up for one.

but i just had a lot of faith in jawneh and kut at the end, i thought going for dean would help... i didn't want to look at tommy and see "good". i wanted to see good in other places.

ggwp all xoxoxo @Tommy Boy

Same. I don’t recall seeing a plan at all but that’s par for the course with me

 

[shortkut]

Lol Cole gumshoed me. You merely outed the rest of the team.

I don’t recall that happening

 

[shortkut]

Hahahaha.

Oh my, that's not what I was expecting in the Spoiler.

 

[TD]

View attachment 4502

 

[TD]

@VashTheStampede
@Raine

By the way.
It 100% was a high freudian slip.

 

[A Vaguely Ambiguous Username]

Lmao of course