Zell Wolf Tough shit

[Aluse Cannon]

Sounds like the town is gonna pull this one out. Oddly kut setting vash and I as a couple may have set the town up nicely.

Vash's save of me simply because he needed to protect me plus my avenging of TD the next night were pretty key moments that only happened because of the coupling.

 

[Smacktard]

Vash's save of me simply because he needed to protect me plus my avenging of TD the next night were pretty key moments that only happened because of the coupling.

Yeah this sucked for us. We were sure that Benzine and Vash were coupled together. We thought we could trigger an avenger-avalanche by killing you, but nah

 

[TD]

Also I said it before in the wolf chat but I'll say it again here:
I think it's stupid that someone can claim avenger and then hold the town hostage by saying they'll kill a townie if they get lynched
literally WHAT

Also also, I think if I hadn't been away much of my day, I maybe could've fought to stay alive. I thought the "lynch Dean, Dean tag me" gambit made the most sense from a pure stats PoV. It's a shame I only became active when everyone else had already gone to bed and there was no time to influence the vote :/

Not gonna lie, I literally said it in the Day Thread but Dean holding the town hostage and it apparently being a defense that worked is so stupid.

Avenger is a bullshit role but at least I know what to do every time I'm gonna be lynched.

 

[Aluse Cannon]

Also I said it before in the wolf chat but I'll say it again here:
I think it's stupid that someone can claim avenger and then hold the town hostage by saying they'll kill a townie if they get lynched
literally WHAT

Also also, I think if I hadn't been away much of my day, I could've fought to stay alive. It's a shame I only became active when everyone else had already gone to bed and there was no time to influence the vote :/

Well now you know it was two people trying to figure out how to back out of it in order to save our independent win condition instead of trying to save a townie win. We didn't care if it screwed over the town at the time.

Also kut was willing to buy in on it for the same reason. And I signaled to him out in the open that vash and I were both town (quoted him and said "yeah you may as well vote with the town).

 

[Tubby23]

You reckon Tommy's either willing or has the chops to lie to everyone's face and say Local was trying to pull a fast one? Would people actually believe him?

I think it would only last for the one day, but the thought fascinates me.

Honestly yes, I believe he has the chops to lie. I think he's not that willing to but probably is at the point where he is obliged to so will.

 

[Aluse Cannon]

Not gonna lie, I literally said it in the Day Thread but Dean holding the town hostage and it apparently being a defense that worked is so stupid.

Avenger is a bullshit role but at least I know what to do every time I'm gonna be lynched.

It wasn't for the town. 3 people needed to convince the town to move off Dean so we could save the Cupid win. Again: didn't matter if it helped the wolves or the town in that instance.

 

[TD]

Well now you know it was two people trying to figure out how to back out of it in order to save our independent win condition instead of trying to save a townie win. We didn't care if it screwed over the town at the time.

To be fair the exact moment Vash bailed when Dean threatened him is when it was obvious he was Cupid'd.

 

[Smacktard]

Well now you know it was two people trying to figure out how to back out of it in order to save our independent win condition instead of trying to save a townie win. We didn't care if it screwed over the town at the time.

Also kut was willing to buy in on it for the same reason. And I signaled to him out in the open that vash and I were both town (quoted him and said "yeah you may as well vote with the town).

FWIW I called out that this was happening, but again, too little too late, and a 3 person voting block influences the rest of the hivemind greatly

 

[Raine]

So IMO "strong" isn't always a helpful seer result, and we'd be better off targetting normal roles occasionally. If we'd hit an avenger, it's likely they'd have taken out a townie based on what I've read so far.

Yeah, the Avengers absolutely need to be taken out sooner. The smaller the player pool, the higher percentage they're hitting a wolf - disregarding the entirety of the role claim/solved board dynamic.

"Strong" is definitely a bit of a misnomer though, I agree. Though Bully is an insanely powerful job - it's a disruptor, a killer and a pro-town Word of God. Arguably the last bit is most important, but, it's all solidly "good." There's zero reason to hold off on throwing rocks. You throw 2 at the same person, and you either kill an anti-town or kill a townie in exchange for being declared irrefutably innocent. If there's a protector available and the wolves don't have Berserk, that's game. It's basically a better Marksman, but still arguably a little worse than Gunner in dire situations (but with more versatility).

 

[TD]

It wasn't for the town. 3 people needed to convince the town to move off Dean so we could save the Cupid win. Again: didn't matter if it helped the wolves or the town in that instance.

Literally everyone not just you guys jumped off though because he happened to threaten Vash of all people who was double cleared.

It literally should've screamed Wolf Avenger.

 

[TD]

Yeah, the Avengers absolutely need to be taken out sooner. The smaller the player pool, the higher percentage they're hitting a wolf - disregarding the entirety of the role claim/solved board dynamic.

We talked about this and knew this, we took a swing at one as early as possible when we uncovered one, not that it matters because they were both targeting me early game.

 

[Raine]

Literally everyone not just you guys jumped off though because he happened to threaten Vash of all people who was double cleared.

It literally should've screamed Wolf Avenger.

I do want to point out that I did this exact same thing and the town still killed me.

And I was a wolf. I just, unlike Dean, hadn't even seen the thread at the time. And the town had a Seer combination pointing at me but still.

Edit: Well I didn't threaten the town, but I mean I did claim that I was an Avenger. The town wasn't scared of an Avenger then.

 

[Aluse Cannon]

Literally everyone not just you guys jumped off though because he happened to threaten Vash of all people who was double cleared.

It literally should've screamed Wolf Avenger.

I can't speak for the rest of the people, but kut going all in on moving off and Vash doing it should have sent a signal. I didn't vote early on and then just chimed in in agreeance saying something like "we don't know for sure but Raine is sus as well"

 

[TD]

I can't speak for the rest of the people, but kut going all in on moving off and Vash doing it should have sent a signal. I didn't vote early on and then just chimed in in agreeance saying something like "we don't know for sure but Raine is sus as well"

That's the other thing.

How the fuck was CUPID able to influence the town so much??

 

[Smacktard]

When I jumped off of Dean, I didn't expect shortkut to successfully bully the rest of the town from jumping off him either. I woke up to see the results and facepalmed. I was simply voting Dean for self-preservation. Didn't do me much good consider shortkut votes to kill me the next day anyway, the shit

 

[Aluse Cannon]

Oh also there was almost the avenger avalanche you all wanted on day 2 there, but I had already switched to TD at that point.

So it would have kept @GwJumpman alive, but killed off the claim of "good boys" for Kelly and local a day earlier.

 

[TD]

Also - it's so weird to me that Jon as a Doctor keeps thinking he's such a high priority kill.

 

[Smacktard]

I can't speak for the rest of the people, but kut going all in on moving off and Vash doing it should have sent a signal. I didn't vote early on and then just chimed in in agreeance saying something like "we don't know for sure but Raine is sus as well"

It absolutely did send a signal, but the wolves were the only ones that picked up on it. It really pains when the town is smart at the wrong times, and dumb at the wrong times

 

[Aluse Cannon]

Also - it's so weird to me that Jon as a Doctor keeps thinking he's such a high priority kill.

Or that he proved himself a townie early on lol.

 

[TD]

Or that he proved himself a townie early on lol.

My favourite part was when he said he helps the town as a wolf too.

I had a whole case built against him too that I was going to use and give him/Jawneh red reads but yeah.

I digress.

 

[Aluse Cannon]

It absolutely did send a signal, but the wolves were the only ones that picked up on it. It really pains when the town is smart at the wrong times, and dumb at the wrong times

 

[Smacktard]

Also - it's so weird to me that Jon as a Doctor keeps thinking he's such a high priority kill.

What's weird to me is that Jon has saved literally 0 people and still no one thinks he's a wolf

 

[Tubby23]

I think it's everyone's natural tendency (I know it's definitely mine) to think that they're a constant target and a high priority kill.
It's what was leading me to failure in early games, I was letting that feeling drive what I was doing too much rather than slowing down and thinking through, logically, who are the targets.

 

[TD]

I gotta find a new way to play though.

This whole if I'm a townie I get killed early and if I'm alive it's suspicious thing needs to stop.

 

[TD]

What's weird to me is that Jon has saved literally 0 people and still no one thinks he's a wolf

He's protected more wolves than townies.

Shoulda been on our team.

 

[Aluse Cannon]

He's protected more wolves than townies.

Shoulda been on our team.

At least he didn't protect his own murderer *cough* @Raposuh *cough*

 

[TD]

At least he didn't protect his own murderer *cough* @Raposuh *cough*

I didn't even realize that.

 

[VashTheStampede]

Also I said it before in the wolf chat but I'll say it again here:
I think it's stupid that someone can claim avenger and then hold the town hostage by saying they'll kill a townie if they get lynched
literally WHAT

Oh, yeah, I should address this.

If I wasn't coupled to Alu, I would have been all COME AT ME BRO and lynched Dean's ass in a heartbeat. Trade one townie for a wolf any day of the week.

But I didn't want to throw Alu's game away PLUS I was playing to my added objective of trying to win as a couple over winning as a townie.

Thank goodness for that, because it could have gotten real bad if it weren't for having Alu tied to me there.

 

[TD]

Oh, yeah, I should address this.

If I wasn't coupled to Alu, I would have been all COME AT ME BRO and lynched Dean's ass in a heartbeat. Trade one townie for a wolf any day of the week.

But I didn't want to throw Alu's game away PLUS I was playing to my added objective of trying to win as a couple over winning as a townie.

Thank goodness for that, because it could have gotten real bad if it weren't for having Alu tied to me there.

...and if you did I would've ended up dying too.

lmao

Lowkey could've blown the wolf op then.

 

[VashTheStampede]

...and if you did I would've ended up dying too.

lmao

Yeah, you were tied to us the whole time. So incredibly fitting.

 

[Raine]

I think it's everyone's natural tendency (I know it's definitely mine) to think that they're a constant target and a high priority kill.

People also think not having suspicion is good, and being in a constant state of "sus" is bad. It's... not. There's a very deliberate method to the madness, but you actually gain a certain amount of protection by being on people's suspicions list.

If you're not suspicious, and the wolves/solo don't have an urgent priority, they're taking your safe ass out.

Conversely you probably don't want so much that a pro-town assassin comes for you either but y'know, dems the breaks.

 

[VashTheStampede]

People also think not having suspicion is good, and being in a constant state of "sus" is bad. It's... not. There's a very deliberate method to the madness, but you actually gain a certain amount of protection by being on people's suspicions list.

If you're not suspicious, and the wolves/solo don't have an urgent priority, they're taking your safe ass out.

Conversely you probably don't want so much that a pro-town assassin comes for you either but y'know, dems the breaks.

I've talked about this before, but it's my #1 strategy every game. Cultivate the right amount of sus.

 

[TD]

Yeah, you were tied to us the whole time. So incredibly fitting.

Man if THAT was how I died I couldn't have even been frustrated, 4 of us in one fell swoop.

And ironically 4 of the 6 Lamb Chop.

Also kut kept saying he wanted me there for the end, which was also hilariously fitting.

 

[VashTheStampede]

I can't wait to chat with kut about this game when it's all over.

 

[Aluse Cannon]

People also think not having suspicion is good, and being in a constant state of "sus" is bad. It's... not. There's a very deliberate method to the madness, but you actually gain a certain amount of protection by being on people's suspicions list.

If you're not suspicious, and the wolves/solo don't have an urgent priority, they're taking your safe ass out.

Conversely you probably don't want so much that a pro-town assassin comes for you either but y'know, dems the breaks.

Again, this is why I play the same way every game. I end up sus enough that I'm not a wolf priority when I'm town, and I'm typically not sus enough to be lynched even if I'm a wolf.

I'm trying to think if I've ever been lynched outside of the first Mafia game when I was straight up outed as mafia on the second day. I think one time when I was alpha wolf and it was part of the plan to get lynched so we could reduce the numbers more (lambchop 6!).

 

[Mark]

I love getting notifications for a thread called “tough shit” when I’m sitting in the garage getting baked minutes before midnight. Lets me know where I’m at.

 

[TD]

I'm trying to think if I've ever been lynched outside of the first Mafia game when I was straight up outed as mafia on the second day. I think one time when I was alpha wolf and it was part of the plan to get lynched so we could reduce the numbers more (lambchop 6!).

I've noticed a lot of us bigger names die from other circumstances than lynching which is also probably why we get targeted early by wolves.

The only time I was lynched was when all three of the wolves outed me as Illusionist and then I was resurrected (lamb chop 6!).

So the real question is...
Does that lynch really count?

 

[TD]

I can't wait to chat with kut about this game when it's all over.

Me too.

Especially after this post that I saw today in hindsight:

Post in thread 'GWF Zell Wolf - Version IX - Day 1' https://gwforums.com/threads/gwf-zell-wolf-version-ix-day-1.1292/post-71286

He was doing it right from the start to me.

I was the first to talk about cupid and he jumped on me for it.

He even got me to the point where when I voted for him once I told him I was just having Cupid PTSD, which is basically telling him I'm a wolf.

I was the one who pushed for the Cupid'd pair to be pushed to late game.

It really fucks with my head to think about how fitting it was.

Spoiler: The sad part?

If I knew it was you and Alu I'm 100% taking the swing at Dean.

 

[Smacktard]

I get lynched so you guys don't have to

 

[Zell 17]

Me too.

Especially after this post that I saw today in hindsight:

Post in thread 'GWF Zell Wolf - Version IX - Day 1' https://gwforums.com/threads/gwf-zell-wolf-version-ix-day-1.1292/post-71286

He was doing it right from the start to me.

I was the first to talk about cupid and he jumped on me for it.

He even got me to the point where when I voted for him once I told him I was just having Cupid PTSD, which is basically telling him I'm a wolf.

I was the one who pushed for the Cupid'd pair to be pushed to late game.

It really fucks with my head to think about how fitting it was.

Spoiler: The sad part?

If I knew it was you and Alu I'm 100% taking the swing at Dean.

Vash and Alu deduced it was kut pretty quickly because I think he dropped a bunch of on their early posts day 1.

 

[Zell 17]

Also - it's so weird to me that Jon as a Doctor keeps thinking he's such a high priority kill.

Yeah I would never kill a doctor. Especially one that's never saved. I'll keep as many unprovable roles on the board as possible thanks.

 

[Zell 17]

One more thing: I don't like the wolves outing kut as Cupid. One, because it doesn't really give the wolves any additional credibility because you are outing a solo player and not a wolf / unknown villager. But two, it immediately tells the entire village that lynches are a total free-for-all, and they need not worry about a fool or headhunter. Imagine how much Dean's "I'm an Avenger, vote me Vash and see what happens" play changes if the village thinks there might be a fool in the game.

 

[TD]

Yeah I would never kill a doctor. Especially one that's never saved. I'll keep as many unprovable roles on the board as possible thanks.

And that's exactly why him & Jawneh were gonna be the two on my red read.

 

[Raine]

I wonder who Dean has as his target right now.

 

[Zell 17]

I wonder who Dean has as his target right now.

Still Jawneh

 

[TD]

I dream of a world where that holds, Tommy kills Dean, and then just goes quiet.

 

[Raine]

One more thing: I don't like the wolves outing kut as Cupid. One, because it doesn't really give the wolves any additional credibility because you are outing a solo player and not a wolf / unknown villager. But two, it immediately tells the entire village that lynches are a total free-for-all, and they need not worry about a fool or headhunter. Imagine how much Dean's "I'm an Avenger, vote me Vash and see what happens" play changes if the village thinks there might be a fool in the game.

The fact that Cupid is basically just a townie and was then permitted to linger as a townie is biting them in the ass a bit, too. Again that whole Voodoo Wolf thing maybe makes a slight bit more sense if shortkut isn't gallivanting around.

Still Jawneh

Not horrible, not great. RIP Jawneh.

 

[TD]

Just like I did in GWFL for the playoff scenario, this is the scenario:

Tommy kills Dean who kills Jawnie because Jon missed on protection
Tommy goes quiet for the phase
Benzine comes out and claims Tommy is a wolf
Tommy remains quiet
The only way to prove Benzine is who he says is to lynch Tommy and see
But Tommy remains quiet
Maybe Voodoo wolf?
Jon and shortkut overthink
They lynch Benzine
Tommy kills shortkut for vengeance
Jon is the last townie alive
Tommy wins. Wolves win.
Tommy is MVP.

But don't tell me the odds.

 

[Raine]

But don't tell me the odds.

 

[Raine]

There really isn't an appropriate reaction for how I feel about that post though. I'm so conflicted!