Zell Wolf GWF Wolf - Zell's Version3 Night2/Day2

[Raine]

Took off a little early, y'all already +3 on pages. Made the right call.

Cliffnotes* from what I remember from Page 1 through halfway down Page 9. This is basically retreading old ground that I'm sure you're all already well past, but regardless:


>>> @Holly made an incredibly risky play detaining Cole and @Fool's Requiem on Night 1. I don't really understand the priority thing enough to know whether she lived because FR isn't a wolf, or because the Marksman blew Cole away before that became a thing. I can see that one happens two steps before the other:

Marksman shot
Witch kill (if not killed by marksman, otherwise potion unused)
Jailer/Warden kill (if not killed by marksman/witch)

>>> I have no reason to disbelieve @Benzine's claim about protecting @canadaguy. We're assuming Cole is a wolf still at this point in the thread. If Cole is ostensibly still functionally in charge of the wolves, targeting CG - especially after targeting shortkut - is entirely on brand/in character. But, if Cole is still calling the shots, capturing/converting the Werewolf Fan and doing an aggressive challenge of @Raposa's role is also entirely on brand. Raposa made the claim very early on Day 1:

Raposa touches his earpiece and adjusts his suit

I was posted outside the doors of a prominent citizen.

>>> I'm willing to give @Local Hero some slack, as this is apparently his first wolf game? First, congratulations(?) on rolling the dice starting with this absolute clusterfuck of a time. Second, uh... I immediately get defensive whenever someone posts a chart/graph/table. That's automatic baddie behavior in my book! A bit more seriously, I am suuuper not okay handing the wolves and the Random Killer a nice, convenient hit list cheatsheet. It's helpful for those not keeping close tabs, sure, but that works both ways. And one way hurts way more than the other.

Additionally, and obviously, LH has kind of tied his fate to FR's at this point. If FR is the Sorcerer (didn't see where that first cropped up?), that's... unfortunate.



>>> Elephant in my personal room: shortkut being a Spirit Seer is bad. I can offer no defense, one does not exist. Absolutely fucking damning. General FYI if I'm not already at the top of your Wolf Suspects list, you're doing this wrong. We absolutely do not have 3 Spirit Seers right after having 3 Aura Seers.
I would really like to go find this FR = Sorcerer origination... but catching up takes priority!



>>> On the subject of wolves, I don't want this getting overlooked in all the commotion. Dude had 140 posts(!), so if I didn't immediately respond to it and remember it this would've been lost:

It's all simple. The Spirit Seer checks Kat and only Kat. If she's a Wolf, it makes it easy to block a kill as she would show red. They can only Nightmare one person. They Nightmare the Warden, the Spirit Seer has their info. They Nightmare the Spirit Seer, we can confirm if FR is a townie.

This is how you play to win.

In what can only be described as a bad faith suggestion - he made one about/for Holly (then: unknown Warden) too, about putting two Wolf Suspects into prison at the same time - he made what I personally see as a Freudian slip. I think the Random Wolf is the fucking Nightmare Wolf, and we just gave them a nice juicy list of ways they can screw us over.

If you'll excuse the totally-not-but-sorta-unavoidably conceited take that I would have been a fucking fantastic target for a Berserk Wolf bloodbath last night, I'm thinking they don't have that. So, another reason Nightmare Wolf makes sense to me.

---

Anyway sorry for derailing whatever you're talking about now, I have... probably 4-5 pages of catching up to do.
* I'm incredibly verbose, I can't help it. The thing Crystal installed to keep me in check says it's only 564 words! lol

 

[Kat]

I'll add that since I feel good about me, Alu (aura seer) and fool's and Shortkut's (spirit seer), that leaves one remaining random role available.

Alu could easily be a sorcerer. That'd give him an the info he needs to pretend to be an aura seer. I'm not saying he IS, but we shouldn't assume he's not. All seers are suspect. Including you.

HOWEVER I don't think we should go after seers right now. Seers are most likely wolves or a sorcerer, because an RK would have a much tougher time getting enough info to pass as a seer believably. If I were an RK, I'd pretend to be a protector, and only announce who I protected after I knew who died. That is impossible to disprove. Or maybe they're not claiming a role at all or claimed something that suspiciously hasn't taken any actions.

I'm voting for Warp. The chances of having four seers in back-to-back games is just ludicrous to me. And with 'kut confirmed spirit seer and Local and Alu both aura seers, it just doesn't add up to me.

I am willing to change this vote if y'all have a better idea. But I need to start from somewhere today.

Why do you trust Local and Alu?

Ryan really seems like the aura seer to me. If they were anything else, they wouldn’t go for the sac. If someone would like to posit an idea for another role that would claim and be willing to die - and willing to be lynched - I’d love to hear it.

Just because he said to lynch him doesn't mean he actually wanted to be lynched. We were already going after Cole, and even if we did lynch Ryan, the guardian wolf could block it.

If he was the aura seer, why did he doubt Fool? They were both claiming the exact same thing, so why does that make Fool suspicious? Why out yourself as a seer at all when you have no new info to add? The whole thing was fucky.

What have Vash and TD claimed as roles and role actions? I think I missed it. Multiple people have said TD seems trustworthy. Why is that?

For now I vote Raposa, but I can be convinced to change to another person likely to be the RK. If we don't manage to lynch the RK, we should plan to try to get them in the jail tonight, so let's try to come up with two suspects.

 

[VashTheStampede]

My reasoning for TD being trustworthy was honestly just vibes. I know I say that a lot but that's how I've played every game so far and it hasn't steered me too wrong yet.

THAT SAID the more I think about it, the less actual firm reasoning I can think of. I guess it's because he has seemed like he's legitimately trying to help us very similarly to how he did in the last game.

But maybe I'm getting played because I do remember people saying he was a good veteran player in the old GW.

 

[Local Hero]

For now I vote Raposa, but I can be convinced to change to another person likely to be the RK. If we don't manage to lynch the RK, we should plan to try to get them in the jail tonight, so let's try to come up with two suspects.

I agree with what you're saying, in regards to picking the person most likely to be RK.

Sorry Zell:

Switching back to Raposa

 

[Killface!]

Anyway sorry for derailing whatever you're talking about now, I have... probably 4-5 pages of catching up to do.

I like it when Warp catches up because I get a bunch of reaction notifications. I feel like i'm doing something right.

Why do you trust Local and Alu?

I was going to ask this. People started hyper focusing on Warp/Raposa and just kind of put Local/Alu to the side and said "I trust".

Maybe I completely missed something?

 

[Kat]

In what can only be described as a bad faith suggestion - he made one about/for Holly (then: unknown Warden) too, about putting two Wolf Suspects into prison at the same time - he made what I personally see as a Freudian slip. I think the Random Wolf is the fucking Nightmare Wolf, and we just gave them a nice juicy list of ways they can screw us over.

Yeah, good point, that was another red flag. Ants and I said townies should kill Cole overnight and Ryan suggests the spirit seer check me. Obviously townies were going to kill that night.

Raposa made the claim very early on Day 1:

If you're going to fake a claim, doing it immediately is the best. Picking an unprovable role that's both guaranteed and random is a good one to fake.

A bit more seriously, I am suuuper not okay handing the wolves and the Random Killer a nice, convenient hit list cheatsheet. It's helpful for those not keeping close tabs, sure, but that works both ways. And one way hurts way more than the other.

I disagree. The wolves are going to keep track regardless. They have 12 hours with nobody posting to get caught up. Sorting out who is claiming what and narrowing down the potential liars is the only way for us to find the bad guys.

 

[Killface!]

My reasoning for TD being trustworthy was honestly just vibes. I know I say that a lot but that's how I've played every game so far and it hasn't steered me too wrong yet.

I lean towards trusting TD because the dude is LOUD. WHAT MORE COULD YOU ASK FOR?

 

[VashTheStampede]

Warp that was a great pick up on the Nightmare slip.

Did you bring it up Day 1 or conveniently just happened to notice after he was already dead?

 

[Raposuh]

 

[Local Hero]

 

[Ants!]

I think that between our two bodyguards, I think Raposa more likely to be lying, but for now I’m willing to bet that the sorcerer is one of our seers, and I’m leaning towards basing my vote on that for now.

Right now I still trust warp, which means I also trust Vash (at least to not be one of the three wolves anyway, could still be RK, fan, or sorcerer).

I’m also willing to bet the fan is calling themselves a seer, to try to make themselves a target for wolves. So I’m in favor of voting out a couple of seers.

Trying to decide between Alu, Local, and Fool.

 

[Raposuh]

BTW nice post count Vash. Very nice.

 

[VashTheStampede]

I mean, I still think Fool is likely Rincewind but maybe it's Local?

Local because that shit where he IMMEDIATELY defended Cole and then switched when he saw his wolf buddy go down is still sus as fuck whenever I think back on it.

But the RK is a SERIOUS concern cause if we don't put them down, the possible bodies could soon hit the theoretical floor.

 

[VashTheStampede]

BTW nice post count Vash. Very nice. View attachment 1511

Yeah I need to slow down and stay behind TD in case they really are aiming at the chatterboxes.

 

[Kat]

I think that between our two bodyguards, I think Raposa more likely to be lying, but for now I’m willing to bet that the sorcerer is one of our seers, and I’m leaning towards basing my vote on that for now.

Right now I still trust warp, which means I also trust Vash (at least to not be one of the three wolves anyway, could still be RK, fan, or sorcerer).

I’m also willing to bet the fan is calling themselves a seer, to try to make themselves a target for wolves. So I’m in favor of voting out a couple of seers.

Trying to decide between Alu, Local, and Fool.

You don't think we should be voting out the RK instead of the sorcerer? The RK is a ticking time bomb.

 

[VashTheStampede]

You don't think we should be voting out the RK instead of the sorcerer? The RK is a ticking time bomb.

Yeah we've been over this  several times now...

Only excuse is if you think Ryan was the RK.

 

[Benzine]

If Cole wasn't a wolf, they would say something in the dead chat about it and KillFace would pass that on.

If Cole was a wolf, they would say something in the dead chat about being a goog guy and KillFace would pass that on.

But we've not heard that. If Cole wasn't a wolf, good fucken work by the wolves, and bad work by Cole for not playing like he had. But he is a wolf so nevermind.

Role	Player
Aura Seer	Alu
Spirit Seer	kut
Bodyguard	Benzine
Marksman	canadaguy
Warden	Holly
Witch	Kat
Ritualist	KillFace

For the other three roles for the town, personally, Ryan is one of them in my mind. I think @Raposa went for the easy role claim while I wasn't there yet.

I would rather try kill Raposa than a potential seer. We could have the other two roles be seers for all we know (leaving Ants and his fans as liars), and I would rather they get another chance at looking, maybe you guys can use that info later. If Raposa is a bodyguard, there's no guarantee of value from the role.

I also think if I had to guess the arsonist is, it'd be Raposa.

canadaguy is going to kill the werewolf fan tonight, I can feel it in my soul. They can too.

 

[Benzine]

Yeah we've been over this  several times now...

Only excuse is if you think Ryan was the RK.

why would ryan be the rk? they can't win if they're dead and i don't think anyone here is immature enough nowadays (at least i hope) to play not to win. with ryan's chess stuff i wouldn't be surprised if it's not this game he didn't care about, but the game of the scores in the hall of fame. playing for the winS.

 

[Kat]

canadaguy is going to kill the werewolf fan tonight, I can feel it in my soul. They can too.

He can't kill the fan until they've become a wolf.

Werewolf Fan: Is a normal townie. Really wants to be a werewolf. The marksman cannot kill this player.

 

[Benzine]

I best actually vote for Raposa.

I heard the R in Raposa stands for random killer.

 

[Raposuh]

 

[Benzine]

He can't kill the fan until they've become a wolf.

Werewolf Fan: Is a normal townie. Really wants to be a werewolf. The marksman cannot kill this player.

Ta.

Get them anyway @canadaguy, let them know we mean business anyway!

 

[Raposuh]

Not you tho Ants!, because I'm voting for you as the RK. Good luck everybody else, and remember who all voted for me at the end.

 

[Ants!]

I mean, I still think Fool is likely Rincewind but maybe it's Local?

Local because that shit where he IMMEDIATELY defended Cole and then switched when he saw his wolf buddy go down is still sus as fuck whenever I think back on it.

But the RK is a SERIOUS concern cause if we don't put them down, the possible bodies could soon hit the theoretical floor.

You don't think we should be voting out the RK instead of the sorcerer? The RK is a ticking time bomb.

…good point

 

[Ants!]

Yeah we've been over this  several times now...

Only excuse is if you think Ryan was the RK.

Or been skimming at work.

I’m sold. Vote Raposa

 

[Kat]

Role	Player
Aura Seer	Alu
Spirit Seer	kut
Bodyguard	Benzine
Marksman	canadaguy
Warden	Holly
Witch	Kat
Ritualist	KillFace

For the other three roles for the town, personally, Ryan is one of them in my mind.

Why are you assuming Alu is the aura seer and not the sorcerer? Why do you trust Ryan? The slip about the nightmare wolf that Warp found is convincing to me.

Not you tho Ants!, because I'm voting for you as the RK. Good luck everybody else, and remember who all voted for me at the end.

Honestly I am getting a bit suspicious of Ants. His claimed role is also a good one for the RK, and he's weirdly uninterested in going after the RK.

What does it matter who votes for you? There's a good chance the wolf team doesn't know who the RK is either.

 

[Kat]

I guess I take back what I said about Ants being uninterested in the RK.

 

[Benzine]

@Holly, I think you should tell us who you are going to put in jail. If you go by our lists, and our lists are alright, then you may get two wolves. If we know who you've put away, they may not escape and kill you.

@Kat do you have your protecting potion?

 

[Raposuh]

This will be an interesting game to watch. RK will have a pretty good chance at victory here imo.

 

[VashTheStampede]

@Holly, I think you should tell us who you are going to put in jail. If you go by our lists, and our lists are alright, then you may get two wolves. If we know who you've put away, they may not escape and kill you

Honest question: is there any way that could backfire if the wolves know who she's jailing?

 

[Kat]

I'm going to be out for several hours and might not be back until after some people have gone to bed.

Holly, plan to jail someone you trust and our backup RK suspect tonight if we don't get them in the lynch, unless you have a better plan.

 

[Killface!]

Sweet. Well team, I’m confident I’ll be dying tonight. That’ll help in a couple of ways. But do not worry - once this flurry of arrow comes in overnight, you’ll be glad I did.

Am I missing something here? If you are BG, then wouldn't you be alive if wolves attacked you? Why do you think you'll be dead tonight?

 

[Kat]

@Kat do you have your protecting potion?

Yes.

Honest question: is there any way that could backfire if the wolves know who she's jailing?

Yes, they know not to attack the jailed townie because it'll fail. We shouldn't announce it. She has plenty of safe people to choose from.

 

[Kat]

Am I missing something here? If you are BG, then wouldn't you be alive if wolves attacked you? Why do you think you'll be dead tonight?

He supposedly got hit once last night and has said he expects his protection target tonight to be attacked, which will kill him. Whether you believe that or not, I'll leave up to you.

 

[Killface!]

I'm going to be out for several hours and might not be back until after some people have gone to bed.

Holly, plan to jail someone you trust and our backup RK suspect tonight if we don't get them in the lynch, unless you have a better plan.

Agree with Kat 100%.

Do NOT say who you are going to jail (if you plan on jailing).

 

[Benzine]

Why are you assuming Alu is the aura seer and not the sorcerer? Why do you trust Ryan? The slip about the nightmare wolf that Warp found is convincing to me.

Because, unless I've confused myself, Alu has said they're an aura seer and the info they give is consistent with what I understand. cg seems to trust Alu, so I do too. cg is the pillar in which we build this win around.

I just think that Ryan's play makes the most sense by far as being an aura seer too. Of course it could be wrong, the wolves could be playing excellently. But when Zell gives you an early lay up, you take it, I think - you still win when you die if your side wins.

I think you should think about using your protecting potion.

Can you guys explain why not to say who's going to jail? Holly has already said she's the warden. What is the potential damage? I do trust Killface, but I don't understand why you'd say that.

 

[Benzine]

Am I missing something here? If you are BG, then wouldn't you be alive if wolves attacked you? Why do you think you'll be dead tonight?

Because I have already successfully protected canadaguy, so I am down to one life - hence why there was no wolf kill last night.

 

[TD]

HEY GUYS I'M OFF WORK!

Whst did I miss?

(I will go back and read just not yet because life)

 

[Killface!]

Can you guys explain why not to say who's going to jail? Holly has already said she's the warden. What is the potential damage? I do trust Killface, but I don't understand why you'd say that.

If wolves know who is jailed, they do not go after that person and go after someone else.

If wolves don't know who is jailed, there is chance that they hit someone in jail. Person in jail does not die.

 

[Benzine]

If wolves know who is jailed, they do not go after that person and go after someone else.

If wolves don't know who is jailed, there is chance that they hit someone in jail. Person in jail does not die.

But why would you put people you want to protect in jail? The only good person I'd put in jail would be Kat, and that's after she uses her potion.

You don't put someone like canadaguy in jail because they're out there doing stuff in the night. Kat and I will look after those guys.

I think a warden should try and put wolves in the this turn to allow the roles who've said seer to have a go. This only doesn't pan out if the remaining townie roles are Raposa. BG and Ants tough guy. Two of the easiest roles to fake, where someone wouldn't be super happy to look at role up so would take a chance elsewhere.

We want the seers to have a go tonight because even if they get killed, they still get the information. This provides an opportunity to get the information later, if the game is still going - potentially game winning for that area of the game.

If you agree with this, then you would agree that Holly needs to tell us who she puts in jail - because if she doesn't and they're both wolves, then that is quite bad. The only better move for the warden, where they don't have to tell us stuff now, would be if they know a wolf and a safe person, and want do that - they'd still have to tell the villager during the day to kill them.

I'm gonna do another table just on my thoughts.

Alu	Probably seer, but does have the capacity to be the sorcerer, or werewolf seer.
Ants!	Tough guy - don't think so, but could be. capacity for evil.
Benzine	Definitely bodyguard and mighty handsome
cg	Way more handsome and no dispute
FR	Holly said they returned the gun? Did we get some sort of clarity on this situation?
Holly	Warden who's had no dispute
Kat	Witch who has said actions and done actions and had no dispute
KillFace	No dispute
LH	a seer of some sort, capacity to be the bad guys
Raposa	claimed bg, don't think so, likes fire

TD	Can't remember which role, but capacity for evil right?
Vash	capacity for evil
Warp	capacity for evil

Got bored as I finished writing that haha. Time to go to work, see you sparingly now.

 

[Fool's Requiem]

Holly said they returned the gun? Did we get some sort of clarity on this situation?

Right, so the Warden can jail two players. They can provide a weapon. Only townies can see and use the weapon. I was jailed with Cole, told I could message him twice, and then was notified that a weapon was provided. I chose to use it on Cole knowing Cole to be a Wolf because shortkut died from a wolf kill and was the only one killed and I only used my ability on Cole. The Marksman's kill happens before a jailor/warden kill event, and therefore the weapon provided to me was returned as I had no one to kill anymore. Holly confirmed rereceipt of the weapon.

 

[Benzine]

Right, so the Warden can jail two players. They can provide a weapon. Only townies can see and use the weapon. I was jailed with Cole, told I could message him twice, and then was notified that a weapon was provided. I chose to use it on Cole knowing Cole to be a Wolf because shortkut died from a wolf kill and was the only one killed and I only used my ability on Cole. The Marksman's kill happens before a jailor/warden kill event, and therefore the weapon provided to me was returned as I had no one to kill anymore. Holly confirmed rereceipt of the weapon.

Mmm but all the gun stuff is related to Holly. Do you tell Zell or Holly that you want to kill? Zell, I assume... So no one is actually able to confirm you did attempt to kill Cole. You can just read what happening in the night and then basically say what you've said.

If you are a spirit seer, which very well could be the case, then from my eyes it looks like the bad people are five of these seven people:

Alu, Ants, LH, Raposa, TD, Vash, Warp.

Vash, LH, Warp or Alu are the sorcerer.

I think one of Ants or Raposa is the arsonist.

 

[VashTheStampede]

Don't say who you're going to jail because if there's a Nightmare Wolf (and Warp and Ryan lead me to believe there is) they could theoretically target the accused. Which could make them unable to react to a weapon drop and make them look guilty, if i understand how it works. And then we end up taking out an innocent.

Unless I don't understand how all of this works at all lol

 

[A Punched Face]

Don't say who you're going to jail because if there's a Nightmare Wolf (and Warp and Ryan lead me to believe there is) they could theoretically target the accused. Which could make them unable to react to a weapon drop and make them look guilty, if i understand how it works. And then we end up taking out an innocent.

Unless I don't understand how all of this works at all lol

Turns out the confusion wolf is more than just a state of mind.

 

[VashTheStampede]

Turns out the confusion wolf is more than just a state of mind.

I think I might be the Nightmare wolf too?

 

[VashTheStampede]

I'm gonna go ahead and break the  skip seal cause i might not be around tonight and dont want to hold things up

 

[Benzine]

Don't say who you're going to jail because if there's a Nightmare Wolf (and Warp and Ryan lead me to believe there is) they could theoretically target the accused. Which could make them unable to react to a weapon drop and make them look guilty, if i understand how it works. And then we end up taking out an innocent.

Unless I don't understand how all of this works at all lol

Could you please refer me to the info on a Nightmare wolf knowledge?

I think the Nightmare wolf just means the warden can't give guns, and in my situation they wouldn't be giving guns? And if the nightmare person doesn't and they do give a gun, it could work out really well for us still, ya know?

Plus... if there is a Nightmare wolf, there's a better role to go for.

I think this was suspect, Vashthew.

 

[A Punched Face]

Also yes, right now unfortunately the best move is NOT announcing in advance because we don't know what other abilities are available to the wolves. Right now best suggestion is that there's potentially a Nightmare wolf involved. For those following along:

5. Nightmare Wolf: Can cause a player to fall asleep during the night, thus being unable to use any abilities. Up to two uses. During the day, must notify by PM the player to fall asleep for the subsequent night. If the medium is nightmared, they will lose access to the dead forum for one night/day cycle. Nightmared players can still vote to skip. Aura: Evil.

 

[Killface!]

But why would you put people you want to protect in jail? The only good person I'd put in jail would be Kat, and that's after she uses her potion.

You don't put someone like canadaguy in jail because they're out there doing stuff in the night. Kat and I will look after those guys.

I'm not saying we should or shouldn't jail these people. I am saying that we cannot tell the world (wolves) WHO we are jailing. This goes back to Game 1 where townies basically laid out their plan and we used Wold Seer on someone they were supposed to be checking.

I think a warden should try and put wolves in the this turn to allow the roles who've said seer to have a go. This only doesn't pan out if the remaining townie roles are Raposa. BG and Ants tough guy. Two of the easiest roles to fake, where someone wouldn't be super happy to look at role up so would take a chance elsewhere.

BG easiest to fake and you are also BG? Let's not forget that you haven't been cleared.

We want the seers to have a go tonight because even if they get killed, they still get the information. This provides an opportunity to get the information later, if the game is still going - potentially game winning for that area of the game.

If you agree with this, then you would agree that Holly needs to tell us who she puts in jail - because if she doesn't and they're both wolves, then that is quite bad. The only better move for the warden, where they don't have to tell us stuff now, would be if they know a wolf and a safe person, and want do that - they'd still have to tell the villager during the day to kill them.

No. I stand by Holly not saying who she should jail. Go for people we think are suspicious? Sure. But to clearly lay out WHO she is going to jail? Absolutely not.

Alu, Ants, LH, Raposa, TD, Vash, Warp.

Vash, LH, Warp or Alu are the sorcerer.

I think one of Ants or Raposa is the arsonist.

Why is FR not on any of your lists? We haven't cleared him either.

 

[Ants!]

Yeah, even if there’s no berserker it’s stupid to announce who you’re protecting. Why give that info to the enemy?