Zell Wolf Discussion Thread v1

[shortkut]

Don't steal my thunder.

I sukk?

 

[Ryan!]

This. The serial killer could've easily started to pick off seer roles or others in between the wolves and then slowly keep the numbers fairly balanced to have both sides eat eachother and carry on to victory. Who knows what would've happened.

I dont know if this game was the outlier, but things did go fairly smooth for the townies. Maybe there's way too much power on their side. Maybe some of the powers need to be tweaked to be a bit less powerful or vague. Maybe Zell already has this outlined and tweaked already.

As for myself in this game, I think I was mostly just along for the ride. Instead of grasping straws like in FQs game where I inadvertently started something against Warp, I simply tried to read what people were saying and analyze and point out things from their POV and findings. It did help immensely that we had gotten some guaranteed townie roles so I didn't have to fear too much about all possibilities for why this person said x, but is actually not who they claim and want y. I did wonder if I had pushed the agenda of the special roles too much to say "this guy is probably one of them since he's so worried about it", but from what I read at least Ryan didn't pick up on that. I just really wanted someone to shoot.

Yeah, I completely misread. I figured the inactivity was because you were trying to lay low. Don't know why I figured you weren't just doing so to get a good study on who to shoot, but I also pegged Dean as our Gunner because I figured that's what he was doing and didn't anticipate two killing roles.

 

[Cole]

You’re right. I could say I was venting a little, and I even mentioned you would likely be coming to read it later, but maybe it was a little shitty of me and I’m sorry for my part of it. However I have to say, this particular post of yours irked me a little bit. No excuse for sure, but that’s where some of my salt was coming from.

well when I made that post it was meant as partly joke. There was almost no antagonism coming through in the thread. There were no debates, no big arguments, no big defenses, it was just myself, shortkut, Ryan and Holly formulating a plan.

I posted that half in jest, hoping you'd role claim something false, give us a REASON TO DOUBT SHORTKUT.

I understand why you think I was outright demadning you role claim, i was not, I just wanted you to tell us a story.

VERY SIMILAR TO THIS

At one point I posted to start a day, "everyone tell us what you did last night!", only Vash posted something relevant to the game really, everyone else thought I was asking about their IRL nights. I was asking people to make up a story about what their CHARACTER did for the night, truth, lies, both, whatever.

I genuinely wanted you to spin a tale to give us some reason to doubt our plan.

 

[A Maybe Baker]

That Vash post in response to you there was pretty awesome as well. I didn't catch it the first time around.

 

[Cole]

FOR ANYONE ELSE reading this, that isnt one specific person.

I do apologize for, as a friend just mentioned to me, "going off the rails".

I was/am very hurt, and I absolutely gave up giving a shit about that one specific person. I am sorry if it appeared small, or petty, or even "old Coleman". I'm doing my best to be different. I gave in. Please don't hold it against me.

 

[Cole]

That Vash post in response to you there was pretty awesome as well. I didn't catch it the first time around.

it was, and I didn't catch it *AT ALL*.

 

[shortkut]

That Vash post in response to you there was pretty awesome as well. I didn't catch it the first time around.

That vash post is what made me think he was a wolf

 

[finlandguy]

Yeah, I completely misread. I figured the inactivity was because you were trying to lay low. Don't know why I figured you weren't just doing so to get a good study on who to shoot, but I also pegged Dean as our Gunner because I figured that's what he was doing and didn't anticipate two killing roles.

I did think I was roughly as active in this as the first barring not starting finger pointing with anyone. I wake up late during the day, leave for work soon after and really only get active on my breaks at work. And... on some extra "breaks" at work. But maybe I was less vocal too. Then again, I also didn't pick up on Dean fishing for a kill either so... Maybe we all played good?

 

[shortkut]

FOR ANYONE ELSE reading this, that isnt one specific person.

I do apologize for, as a friend just mentioned to me, "going off the rails".

I was/am very hurt, and I absolutely gave up giving a shit about that one specific person. I am sorry if it appeared small, or petty, or even "old Coleman". I'm doing my best to be different. I gave in. Please don't hold it against me.

This post is suspicious. @Zell 17 investigate Cole

 

[Ants!]

For me it was more about the gloating and the making “sport” of me (your own word you used later). I understand you were trying to make the game more fun and challenging though, that part didn’t bother me.

For myself, it made more sense to just stay alive until night, that’s as far as I would have made anyway even if I succeeded in that other strategy that would have been ten times the effort for me.

 

[Ants!]

I admit I was being too sensitive though, so sorry I turned into a middle school girl because of it.

 

[A Maybe Baker]

That vash post is what made me think he was a wolf

But we already established you're a terrible detective, so that should have confirmed it for you.

I feel like you were the bumbling detective in a movie who was just wandering around and accidentally found the bad guys' lair after tripping on your untied shoelace.

 

[shortkut]

But we already established you're a terrible detective, so that should have confirmed it for you.

I feel like you were the bumbling detective in a movie who was just wandering around and accidentally found the bad guys' lair after tripping on your untied shoelace.

That’s how I felt, but how’d it work out for me? That’s right

 

[A Maybe Baker]

That’s how I felt, but how’d it work out for me? That’s right

MVP - shortkut's shoelace

 

[Cole]

For me it was more about the gloating and the making “sport” of me (your own word you used later). I understand you were trying to make the game more fun and challenging though, that part didn’t bother me.

For myself, it made more sense to just stay alive until night, that’s as far as I would have made anyway even if I succeeded in that other strategy that would have been ten times the effort for me.

if I appeared to be gloating. I apologize. within the confines of the game, I do "roleplay" a little tiny bit if it, I get into the character. I was proud we caught you. I absolutely did not mean "sport" in the sense that you were easy or free. I believe I even said in an early post that *you* in particular ran into a SUPER unfortunate set of events.

i meant sport as in the sense of "make a game of it", make this exciting and give us a reason to doubt the information we had.

at the time, you could have cast suspicion on myself, Holly and shortkut by claiming to be some thing else and passing it off as a huge elaborate plan.

I want these games to be fun, not just for me, but for the players, for the spectators. I did that to the best of my ability and clearly failed if this many people feel like I bullied or forced them into playing a different way, which is ultimately why I've bowed out of the next game and will have to think on doing it again.

if what I perceive as making the game fun for all isn't actually doing it, then I'm not gonna rob your fun to create my own.

 

[shortkut]

I had fun

 

[A Maybe Baker]

I did too. Even though everyone thought I was very likely a wolf until the last day (although Cole did seem to believe me by protecting me that previous night)

 

[Ants!]

if I appeared to be gloating. I apologize. within the confines of the game, I do "roleplay" a little tiny bit if it, I get into the character. I was proud we caught you. I absolutely did not mean "sport" in the sense that you were easy or free. I believe I even said in an early post that *you* in particular ran into a SUPER unfortunate set of events.

i meant sport as in the sense of "make a game of it", make this exciting and give us a reason to doubt the information we had.

at the time, you could have cast suspicion on myself, Holly and shortkut by claiming to be some thing else and passing it off as a huge elaborate plan.

I want these games to be fun, not just for me, but for the players, for the spectators. I did that to the best of my ability and clearly failed if this many people feel like I bullied or forced them into playing a different way, which is ultimately why I've bowed out of the next game and will have to think on doing it again.

if what I perceive as making the game fun for all isn't actually doing it, then I'm not gonna rob your fun to create my own.

I might have misunderstood your intent a little bit then. And I also realized that you were just really really excited about the game.

 

[Cole]

I might have misunderstood your intent a little bit then. And I also realized that you were just really really excited about the game.

I don't think I *demanded* anyone role claim at any point. (If I did, correct me)

What I DID often say, to Ryan, to Holly, to you, to the seiral killer, was "defend yourself", tell me a story, convince me I'm wrong. The problem therein lies that because *I* claimed my role, and others had as well, was most of you felt the only way out of it at that point WAS to reveal.

Did I send the game into a frenzy of reveals? Yes absolutely.

But can anyone other than one person, claim I FORCED them to reveal? Or just that they had to to combat what I was saying?

 

[Zell 17]

Did I send the game into a frenzy of reveals? Yes absolutely.

This is the optimal strategy for the town though. (See my post in the other thread). Of course evils won’t like it, it hurts them. If I’m the gunner I’m saying “Claim or die” to just about everyone

 

[finlandguy]

I'm kind of glad I wasn't put too much in the forefront since it would've been very likely that I waste a bullet shot and mess up whatever the current plans were for the day. And probably get zerked the following night.

 

[Ants!]

I don't think I *demanded* anyone role claim at any point. (If I did, correct me)

What I DID often say, to Ryan, to Holly, to you, to the seiral killer, was "defend yourself", tell me a story, convince me I'm wrong. The problem therein lies that because *I* claimed my role, and others had as well, was most of you felt the only way out of it at that point WAS to reveal.

Did I send the game into a frenzy of reveals? Yes absolutely.

But can anyone other than one person, claim I FORCED them to reveal? Or just that they had to to combat what I was saying?

I did feel kind of forced, but only because of the situation itself, and not because you kept asking me to. I understood that you were just playing to win and also to make it fun.

 

[Ants!]

Have a read, and understand why I was angry up in heaven. Lol

 

[Ants!]

Of course, I am not without my own blunder. Here is how the game started. Just imagine if I had agreed with FQ and said oh yes, let’s definitely kill shortcut tonight?

 

[VashTheStampede]

Have a read, and understand why I was angry up in heaven. Lol

Woof

 

[A Maybe Baker]

Lol yeah. I have 0 understanding as to why the wolves wouldn't berserk kill at any point in the game. Especially at that point, you could have killed the detective and a witch and force the medium to revive one (and if that one was the detective, forcing the town to be without the detective for a valuable night phase).

Just kill the detective, watch him get revived and be unable to use his power, and then kill him the next night again so he can't announce who he detected. Can't be revived again, though I suppose that would leave the medium needing to communicate the information, but in doing that they would also need to reveal.

 

[Fool's Requiem]

Of course, I am not without my own blunder. Here is how the game started. Just imagine if I had agreed with FQ and said oh yes, let’s definitely kill shortcut tonight?

Making sure you didn't Berserk kill Holly to guarantee my death would have been the best plan.

I think the wolves 100% would have needed me dead more than the villagers.

 

[Ants!]

I guess eliminating the rez power was a bigger priority than stopping the fool from being lynched. Maybe they wanted to save the beserk for after? But then we went the whole game without using it afaik

 

[Fool's Requiem]

I guess eliminating the rez power was a bigger priority than stopping the fool from being lynched. Maybe they wanted to save the beserk for after? But then we went the whole game without using it afaik

Cole did mention day one that using Berserk on a townie before with known abilities would have been a waste. You would have needed to kill the Doctor and/or the Medium first.

 

[A Maybe Baker]

I guess eliminating the rez power was a bigger priority than stopping the fool from being lynched. Maybe they wanted to save the beserk for after? But then we went the whole game without using it afaik

There was a decent chance that someone would have protected kut on any given night after the medium was dead. And in fact, he was protected both of the next two nights (first by Holly, and then by me).

 

[Ants!]

@Cole it’s clear you’ve done a lot more growing up than I have. I’m sorry for those comments, a lot of them were out of line. And I’m even more sorry if I dragged down your enjoyment and passion for these games. I will work harder at having a more sportsmanlike attitude. Good game, you played amazing again.

 

[Cole]

Have a read, and understand why I was angry up in heaven. Lol

Of course, I am not without my own blunder. Here is how the game started. Just imagine if I had agreed with FQ and said oh yes, let’s definitely kill shortcut tonight?

this is high level discussion. I'd actually LOVE to read the entire conversation (but that's mostly selfish because it'll give me a better read on all of you for the future)

but ants your ideas were smart and valid and would have disrupted the game

@Kat s analysis (I believe it was hers anyway) was AS ALWAYS very spot on, and I'm officially nervous about her in all future games.

seems like you guys had all the right ideas, and just not the perfect execution.

great job. (that's not sarcastic, you guys were planning the right things and it just didn't happen)

 

[Ants!]

Yeah that was Kat

 

[Kat]

Lol yeah. I have 0 understanding as to why the wolves wouldn't berserk kill at any point in the game

There was a decent chance that someone would have protected kut on any given night after the medium was dead. And in fact, he was protected both of the next two nights (first by Holly, and then by me).

You're completely right. This is what happened:
We decided to take a chance killing an unclaimed role instead of using berserk and hope for something good since all the claimed roles weren't amazing and there weren't a lot of options left. This 100% paid off with getting the medium.

The second night, I planned to use it kill someone I suspected would be protected by multiple people because you all were too afraid to coordinate, and hopefully get 3 kills. HOWEVER I had a long day at work and had to run some errands and got too much sun and accidentally passed out as soon as I got home.

When I woke up, you all had skipped the day phase and I guess the night phase was already over by the time it was normally supposed to just be starting and I was dead?! Nobody was talking about taking me out the last time I looked and I thought I had more time. I honestly don't really know what happened.

I'm not gonna lie, I'm salty af if we mostly lost due to me falling asleep and everybody skipping. IMO day and night cycles need to be 100% predictable, some people are too busy to constantly check in on. Maybe let day skip but have the night end at its normal time unless they also choose to skip? It's one thing to be out played, I'll take that with a grin, but it's not fun to lose for that reason.

Stupid being an adult and having a job and responsibilities.

Anyway I still had a ton of fun and am looking forward to playing it again! I think I'd like 24 hour cycles for both day and night in the future. It'd give me some time to catch up on the day threads, and gives it less time to get out of control, post count wise. I know it's a bit slower pace, but imo that's better in this format.

 

[A Maybe Baker]

I think the night phase started at about 6:15PM Eastern time and the next day one was starting 12 hours later. You were shot early on in the phase because shortkut outed you as on a different team. At that point it may have actually been too late though. Enough of the townie roles had been proven and Vash had outed Killface as another wolf. But the weird part was not taking out a known role that night (specifically shortkut). Taking out an unknown/not confirmed for sure player meant the townie numbers were down enough that we were able to numbers game it down to the gunner being able to reveal and win us the game.

So falling asleep didn't do it, it was taking out too many unconfirmed townies instead of the confirmed ones. It really reduced the chances to sow confusion and point the finger at other non-revealed players.

 

[Cole]

Anyway I still had a ton of fun and am looking forward to playing it again! I think I'd like 24 hour cycles for both day and night in the future. It'd give me some time to catch up on the day threads, and gives it less time to get out of control, post count wise. I know it's a bit slower pace, but imo that's better in this format.

longer cycles with some means to skip or accelerate (not just players skipping but zells discretion thst like "okay everyone's done their shit I'm gonna start" would be fine

 

[Zell 17]

You're completely right. This is what happened:
We decided to take a chance killing an unclaimed role instead of using berserk and hope for something good since all the claimed roles weren't amazing and there weren't a lot of options left. This 100% paid off with getting the medium.

The second night, I planned to use it kill someone I suspected would be protected by multiple people because you all were too afraid to coordinate, and hopefully get 3 kills. HOWEVER I had a long day at work and had to run some errands and got too much sun and accidentally passed out as soon as I got home.

When I woke up, you all had skipped the day phase and I guess the night phase was already over by the time it was normally supposed to just be starting and I was dead?! Nobody was talking about taking me out the last time I looked and I thought I had more time. I honestly don't really know what happened.

I'm not gonna lie, I'm salty af if we mostly lost due to me falling asleep and everybody skipping. IMO day and night cycles need to be 100% predictable, some people are too busy to constantly check in on. Maybe let day skip but have the night end at its normal time unless they also choose to skip? It's one thing to be out played, I'll take that with a grin, but it's not fun to lose for that reason.

Stupid being an adult and having a job and responsibilities.

Anyway I still had a ton of fun and am looking forward to playing it again! I think I'd like 24 hour cycles for both day and night in the future. It'd give me some time to catch up on the day threads, and gives it less time to get out of control, post count wise. I know it's a bit slower pace, but imo that's better in this format.

The rules for skipping were everyone minus 1 to skip the day. It was a full night cycle.

 

[Kat]

I think the night phase started at about 6:15PM Eastern time and the next day one was starting 12 hours later

I thought the night phase was supposed to start at 9 am typically? So then night phase would've been over at 6am (3 am my time!), which is before it typically started.

Or I'm an idiot and have no idea when the phases were supposed to start, in which case it's still a stupid way to lose but at least it's my own fault.

 

[shortkut]

I thought the night phase was supposed to start at 9 am typically? So then night phase would've been over at 6am (3 am my time!), which is before it typically started.

Or I'm an idiot and have no idea when the phases were supposed to start, in which case it's still a stupid way to lose but at least it's my own fault.

With a skip vote, the next phase started earlier, but still ended when it was supposed to… unless another skip vote happened. @Zell 17 to confirm

 

[Zell 17]

I thought the night phase was supposed to start at 9 am typically? So then night phase would've been over at 6am (3 am my time!), which is before it typically started.

Or I'm an idiot and have no idea when the phases were supposed to start, in which case it's still a stupid way to lose but at least it's my own fault.

It was 36hr/12hr phases. When the day phase got cut short, the night phase (12 hours) started then. We did go the full 12 but yeah it probably started 3 pm your time.

 

[Zell 17]

I'm open to playing around with the times

 

[Kat]

the next phase started earlier, but still ended when it was supposed to… unless another skip vote happened

No, night phase should've gone until 9 pm tonight if that were the case. It was over before it was scheduled to start.

I'm not complaining @Zell 17 , I'm so happy you hosted this game and I really enjoyed it! I do ask of all hosts of future games, please don't end a phase early because the previous phase ended early, especially if half the team hasn't responded yet.

 

[A Maybe Baker]

I thought the night phase was supposed to start at 9 am typically? So then night phase would've been over at 6am (3 am my time!), which is before it typically started.

Or I'm an idiot and have no idea when the phases were supposed to start, in which case it's still a stupid way to lose but at least it's my own fault.

Yeah, it took all but 1 person voting to skip in order to shorten it. This meant that your co-wolfs (FQ and Killface both voted to do so). If Killface had pretended to be too busy to update a vote that day and held off it wouldn't have been skipped, or if FQ didn't feel like speeding up her demise. We even called out that you were unlikely to be able to do a skip thanks to your day, so FQ could have ended up saving you there, but I think that was just another unfortunate misstep.

Even still - the second night in a row targeting a non-revealed player is what did you in, and it would have been basically impossible to come back from that.


Edit: also, you could have activated berserk either the night before (for the next night) or that day and said you did with a plan to follow through on killing kut no matter what. But yeah it was just very unfortunate for you. I think this game was just doomed from the start for the wolves thanks to the day 1 snowball.

 

[Kat]

This meant that your co-wolfs (FQ and Killface both voted to do so). If Killface had pretended to be too busy to update a vote

Killface thought it had to be unanimous. I'm not sure what FQ's excuse is! And I did warn them I'd be busy that day.

Honestly it would've been a better time slot for me than the original one any other day. It's mostly just bad luck I happened to pass out that afternoon.

 

[Kat]

Okay okay, I just need some closure to know how my plan would've shaken out if I'd had a chance to implement it. Obviously I would've missed the end of the day even if you didn't skip and wouldn't have been able to do some of this, so this isn't "I would've totally won guys it's all your fault", I just want to know.

@Zell 17 who all protected shortkut the night I missed?
@Ryan! Who would you have protected if FQ didn't take you out with her?

Based on where I left the thread, I would've suggested this:
- change avenger target to Vash
- berserk kill shortkut

I fully believed Ryan was a bodyguard until he was killed. With that as an assumption, this would've guaranteed there was at most one seer left, which is useless with our shaman, and would've maximized possible carnage with the berserk kill. Since I believed there were 4 protectors (two witches, bodyguard, unknown doctor), it could've taken out up to 5 people at once. That'd be very unlikely of course, but 3 was a good chance, and more wasn't crazy unlikely. The absolute chaos from losing both people who could give any insight plus several people total would've been amazing. At that point, it's down to finger pointing and anybody's game.

Shaman wasn't really needed, but I'd pick Alu or Jawneh just in case the other happened to be a seer. If they happened to exist and checked me, blaming the shaman was an easy out.

So how many people would I have taken out?

 

[finlandguy]

@Kat if you missed it, Zell posted this in the other thread.

Here are all roles and the actions taken throughout the night periods:

(Removed roles so I don't ping people lol)

Night 1:

Detective - Check Ants! and Cole (different)
Wolf Seer - Check shortkut (Detective)
Serial Killer - Abstain from killing
Tough Guy - No protect
Wolves - Kill Fool's Requiem (Unanimous) (Unsuccessful)
Witch 1 (Holly) - Protect Kat
Witch 2 (Cole) - No Protect
Marksman - Target Cole
Doctor - Protect Cole
Aura - Check Cole (Unknown)
Wolf Avenger - Tag Cole

Night 2:
Tough Guy - No Protect
Witch 1 (Holly) - Protect shorkut, Kill Fool's Requiem (Serial Killer)
Medium - No revive
Marksman - No action
Doctor - Protect Cole
Wolf Shaman - Shaman Holly
Witch 2 (Cole) - Kill Ants!, Protect Holly
Detective - Check Vash and Holly (different)
Aura - Check Fire Queen (Evil)
Wolves - Kill Benzine
Wolf Avenger - Tag Ryan!
Wolf Seer - Check Tommy Boy (Fool)

Night 3:
Tough Guy - Protect shortkut
Witch 1 (Holly) - Protect Cole
Marksman - Target Kat
Witch 2 (Cole) - Protect Alu
Detective - Check Kat and Dean (different)
Aura - Check Killface! (Evil)
Wolf Shaman - Shaman Alu

Night 4:
Witch 1 (Holly) - No Action
Witch 2 (Cole) - Protect Jawneh
Tough Guy - Protect Vash
Detective - Check Cole and Vash (same)
Aura - Check Tommy Boy (Unknown)

 

[Kat]

Hmm interesting. You guys did a good job of spreading your protection around despite not posting who you were protecting (I assume)!

The marksman had me in their sights! I wonder if I could've gotten out of that one.

And aww, @Holly protected me the first night.

 

[finlandguy]

If your plan you laid out went ahead during night 2, it would've been a very different game.

Night 3 though, it looks like it would've been too late. Even with vash and kut dead, Dean would be there to potentially get a shot off on you, since why not at that point. Unless Dean got lynched that day. Even then, we already were down to quite a few claimed roles so at best wolves could've lived maybe one more day and night just thanks to me as the gunner being around to at worst kill the fool to open lynching season, but most likely off at least either you or killface.

Unless then 9D chess discussion took over and everyone went nuts lol. I do kind of wish that happened night 2 so that we'd have had a bit longer game.

 

[Tubby23]

I blundered worse than anyone but then enjoyed watching from the sidelines.
I wish the last two day phases weren't as obvious, and Tommy had more of a chance but it was still fun to watch, would have been better to play. Dumb Tubby

 

[Cole]

I blundered worse than anyone but then enjoyed watching from the sidelines.
I wish the last two day phases weren't as obviously Tommy had more of a chance but it was still fun to watch, would have been better to play. Dumb Tubby

yours was such an unfortunate mistake. we overwhlemed the thread with discussion, and you JUST WANTED TO HELP lol

ah well, live and learn. i won't eat you first don't worry.