Zell Wolf Discussion Thread v1

[Jawneh]

Man Ryan, there was a moment on Day 3 before you died where I was considering on saying something along the lines of "what if I throw in a monkey wrench and say I'm the REALbodyguard". That would've backfired on me real quick afterwards. I didn't read enough into anything to think you were telling the truth or not about your role, but man.

 

[Cole]

there is some fucking SALT IN THIS FUCKING THREAD.

You're a good sport. I felt like their actions were bad faith and poor sportsmenship, and I don't stand for that kind of play, so I fought it and it got me killed. They also wasted their abilities, so fuck em. Coleface is gloating outside of the main game despite the game having a "Please do not talk about the game outside of the designated threads" stipulation.

@Tubby23 , sorry you got mixed up in that mess. It's understandable to be confused by all that nonsense.

gloating outside the game? I talked about the game in the abstract in the other rules discussion thread to try and make these games as enjoyable for all.

Sounds like Coleman.

Zell: *gives a rule*
Coleman: well that’s not how I would do it.

I like playing wolf, I like playing townie, I like hosting games. I disagreed with a few of Zells rules and decisions, and I adhered to them once stated. I have different opinions on how to run the game.

Lol. “Kinda shitty” I’m starting to think means “doesn’t work in my favor.”

This post in question is about me saying that a berserker targetting a townie that has 4 people protecting him means THEY ALL die, yes, that is kinda shitty. And if I were a wolf I wouldn't have wanted it that way either. Double kill? Sure. But wiping out 5 townies at once? That's... horrid gameplay.

Okay, still need to read all the new posts starting with Cole’s edible-driven CVS-receipt of a post, but:

@Fire Queen Can I ask why you guys didn’t use the beserk when we were almost guaranteed a double kill?

Okay the CVS receipt comment was funny.

Coleman was talking like he was invincible and I didn't consider you being a bodyguard.

I survived to the end. Clearly I was invincible.

I do wish Cole hadn't kinda forced my confession, but I put myself in that position in the first place. But I play a lot of Caro Kann so I'm used to having to adapt. Best case scenario, Wolves believe me and don't want to waste their Berserk kill on someone who isn't the Doctor. Worst case, my other plan works and the Wolves think I'm an asset. My protections all fail and I have so much suspicion on me it seems obvious and the town refuses to vote for me because they think I'm the Fool.

I didn't force your confession, you got backed into a corner by claiming to have protected me due to faulty math. I'm not gonna apologize for it, especially when you made the best of the situation with a BRILLIANT false role claim.

I think they keep Cole around to enjoy the show. They got two of the big roles. The two witches have a protect, but they almost have no clue who the Wolves are, so they may just keep protecting the wrong people.

If they're smart they go for Tommy tonight and get rid of that threat entirely. But if I'm right and Dean is the Gunner, I think he might be the next target.

they probably do, that is the way I play these games. I TRY to act suspicious because I don't wanna die early and hope that the worse I look, the more the wolves will keep me alive. And it also conveniently masks when I'm wolf, I look suspicious ANYWAY.

I am happy with the way I played this game, I was 100% honest in my posts, which is what I said I would be. I've gotten a few messages from people thinking that I played great. I don't even think I did anything super special, I just said the truth.

If the consensus is people don't want me in these games, fine. I don't need to play.

But in this post-old GW world, I 100% don't have the energy to have a bunch of people fucking annoyed at me for sticking to the rules of the game, and I'd just as soon stop playing. I'm not trying to be whiney, if people dont want me to play, I can stop. But the last fucking thing I'm going to do at these forums is get myself upset at a sore loser whining that I ruined his experience. I'm not who I was, I'm not gonna go back and forth with people every single game that don't like how I play.

 

[Ryan!]

there is some fucking SALT IN THIS FUCKING THREAD.

gloating outside the game? I talked about the game in the abstract in the other rules discussion thread to try and make these games as enjoyable for all.

I like playing wolf, I like playing townie, I like hosting games. I disagreed with a few of Zells rules and decisions, and I adhered to them once stated. I have different opinions on how to run the game.

This post in question is about me saying that a berserker targetting a townie that has 4 people protecting him means THEY ALL die, yes, that is kinda shitty. And if I were a wolf I wouldn't have wanted it that way either. Double kill? Sure. But wiping out 5 townies at once? That's... horrid gameplay.

Okay the CVS receipt comment was funny.

I survived to the end. Clearly I was invincible.

I didn't force your confession, you got backed into a corner by claiming to have protected me due to faulty math. I'm not gonna apologize for it, especially when you made the best of the situation with a BRILLIANT false role claim.

they probably do, that is the way I play these games. I TRY to act suspicious because I don't wanna die early and hope that the worse I look, the more the wolves will keep me alive. And it also conveniently masks when I'm wolf, I look suspicious ANYWAY.

I am happy with the way I played this game, I was 100% honest in my posts, which is what I said I would be. I've gotten a few messages from people thinking that I played great. I don't even think I did anything super special, I just said the truth.

If the consensus is people don't want me in these games, fine. I don't need to play.

But in this post-old GW world, I 100% don't have the energy to have a bunch of people fucking annoyed at me for sticking to the rules of the game, and I'd just as soon stop playing. I'm not trying to be whiney, if people dont want me to play, I can stop. But the last fucking thing I'm going to do at these forums is get myself upset at a sore loser whining that I ruined his experience. I'm not who I was, I'm not gonna go back and forth with people every single game that don't like how I play.

Oh don't worry, it wasn't faulty. I'm a 1900 elo chess player and we took math heavily in undergrad. Make a dumb comment, see how people react. Push it harder, see where the convo goes. It caught my suspicion on a few people, but your jovial nature to it all along with the analysis let me know I could trust you, not fully trust FQ, and not trust Kat until FQ got me.

 

[Cole]

Oh don't worry, it wasn't faulty. I'm a 1900 elo chess player and we took math heavily in undergrad. Make a dumb comment, see how people react. Push it harder, see where the convo goes. It caught my suspicion on a few people, but your jovial nature to it all along with the analysis let me know I could trust you, not fully trust FQ, and not trust Kat until FQ got me.

well regardless if it was intentionally bad math or not, it's what caused me to push you for answers, which you chose to comply with by revealing your role.

It's unfair to say I forced you into it when you played a BRILLIANT strategy that required answers.

 

[Ryan!]

well regardless if it was intentionally bad math or not, it's what caused me to push you for answers, which you chose to comply with by revealing your role.

It's unfair to say I forced you into it when you played a BRILLIANT strategy that required answers.

Yeah, that's completely fair.

I tried to follow what you do. Push people with a random accusation on day one and see reactions.

 

[Kat]

Best case scenario, you believe me and don't bother with the Berserk kill because you want to get the Doctor. Worst case scenario, you and Cole throw enough suspicion on me and it looks like it's intentional so you think I'm the Fool and ignore me. But yeah, good read on knowing I was lying.

I should have pushed harder on Day 2 and not dropped my suspicion. The reaction to my offense and accusation were what I was looking for, but FQ played me hard.

This 100% worked! I felt it was suspicious you were arguing so hard for it not being worth it to berserk you, but I also agreed it was kind of dumb to use it while the medium was alive. And I don't really regret our choice of action, we got lucky and got the medium.

I think if I hadn't fallen asleep yesterday as soon as I got home and had a chance to participate more and maybe use my berserk before dying (I'm not sure if I would've had the chance, I haven't been able to read the thread at all since I last posted), it could've gone another way.

It was so fun to play with you all though!

 

[VashTheStampede]

This thread was my favorite part of the game. Lovely concept.

 

[Zell 17]

This thread was my favorite part of the game. Lovely concept.

It didn't even get to be used to it's full potential where the medium can relay what dead people are saying back into the game as evidence, partially because Benzine died so fast.

 

[Cole]

Yeah, that's completely fair.

I tried to follow what you do. Push people with a random accusation on day one and see reactions.

I know.

but I'm just gonna continue the honesty trend here.

I personally have a hard time of letting go of grudges. typically if I don't like someone, I never will. but I've tried so hard at these forums to just let go, be an adult, make amends and remember we were all dumb kids with shitty attitudes.

whether some were in jest or not, there's so many posts in both threads about how I ruined the game, forced people to do this forced people do that. I was "gloating" and trying to manipulate the rules in my favor.

it DOES hurt. I had fun playing. I did something risky that could have easily gotten me killed day 1 or night 1. but instead it caused a chain of events that worked wonderfullt, and to have a bunch of people saying I didn't play "fair" becsuse I adhered to the rules hurts.

and just makes me feel like some of these other people weren't interested in separating old GW from GWF.

and it absolutely does make me reconsider playing. I don't want anyone to come in and be like "no, keep playing. you're fun to play with" I'm not looking for pity hugs.

this just sucks.

and it hurts.

 

[Fool's Requiem]

"Sticking to the rules of the game" = Finding loopholes in order to fit your mindset and ignoring the "don't discuss the game outside of main thread".

I'm allowed to be salty. I didn't like the way you played the game. Maybe you should try being more humble in your win like you were in the first game...

 

[Ryan!]

Also see, Cole, if I didn't protect you night one, Dean would have killed you.

 

[Fool's Requiem]

I'd also like to add I had a blast watching you work in Game 1, Cole. But game 2 was a different beast, man.

 

[Ryan!]

Just realized if I didn't protect Cole night one, we would have been down two townies at the start.

 

[Cole]

I'd also like to add I had a blast watching you work in Game 1, Cole. But game 2 was a different beast, man.

honestly you can fuck right off with that bullshit, seriously. Take it to someone who gives a shit.

 

[Ants!]

Okay, honest opinion time from the townies: do you think this game played a little too easy for you? Genuinely curious.

 

[VashTheStampede]

YEP

 

[Ants!]

@Coleman I admit it’s hard to keep all the salt out, but I can’t claim you did anything outside the rules so fair is fair. I do think the game needs to be tweaked for balance though, that’s the conversation I’m interested in having at this point.

 

[VashTheStampede]

Very good chance without role claiming I'd have died.

Then again, without role claiming I might not have been in trouble to begin with.

Hard to say. Looking forward to the next game not having role claiming as an option just to judge the difference. I might hate not being able to role claim!

 

[A Punched Face]

It was easy after a stroke of luck on day 1 (kut getting a wolf in his comparison). Also lucky that Ryan saved Cole, but if he didn't we would have definitely got Ants day 1 anyway. We just would have been down a potion.

Also seemed easier because Vash nailed it 2/2 when it mattered.

 

[Cole]

@Coleman I admit it’s hard to keep all the salt out, but I can’t claim you did anything outside the rules so fair is fair. I do think the game needs to be tweaked for balance though, that’s the conversation I’m interested in having at this point.

thats all well and good, and I have a LOT to contribute to balance and fairness, I know what game weaknesses and strengths look like, because I'm good at finding the optimal way to play any given version, but the fucking talking behind my back salt in this thread has me reconsidering even being a part of it.

 

[VashTheStampede]

@Coleman I admit it’s hard to keep all the salt out, but I can’t claim you did anything outside the rules so fair is fair. I do think the game needs to be tweaked for balance though, that’s the conversation I’m interested in having at this point.

I am working on a game (with Cole's assistance) that has a mechanic that limits role claiming without eliminating it entirely. I am very excited about it.

 

[Fool's Requiem]

honestly you can fuck right off with that bullshit, seriously. Take it to someone who gives a shit.

wow dude

wow

 

[A Punched Face]

I do really want to point out that there was no rule about role claiming, and that in a game with so many I honestly expected people to claim them. I was in plenty of games before where this was the case. It just normally doesn't snowball with proof like it did this time. If we didn't have the accidental proof from Holly (who only got there after misreading the rules up front) then it would have been a different ballgame where it took longer to trust people.

 

[Cole]

wow dude

wow

Yeah, be shocked. Go for it.

In the first game, with you as a wolf, I asked FQ if we could abstain night one. She initially said "next game, I think that needs to be an explicit rule", I said "but it doesn't say we CANT do it, I'd like you to reconsider". She did, and she went for it. And I even told you and Ants I had done that. The rules didn't say we COULDN'T abstain, so I pushed for us to be allowed to.

So you had no problem with me BIG FUCKING QUOTES "manipulating the rules" when it benefited you, right? Just when you were the victim of it?

 

[shortkut]

I did a better job with my investigations than I expected. 2 wolves found

 

[Cole]

I do really want to point out that there was no rule about role claiming, and that in a game with so many I honestly expected people to claim them. I was in plenty of games before where this was the case. It just normally doesn't snowball with proof like it did this time. If we didn't have the accidental proof from Holly (who only got there after misreading the rules up front) then it would have been a different ballgame where it took longer to trust people.

Dude there was *LESS* than no rule about rule claiming.

In the DM to me from Zell when he gave me my rule, HE EVEN OUTLINED THE WAY IN WHICH I WOULD NEED TO CLAIM MY ROLE.

He said outright before the game started to all that this particular variant WAS A GAME OF ROLE CLAIMING.

Not only was it not in the rules, it was PART OF THE GAME.

 

[Cole]

I did a better job with my investigations than I expected. 2 wolves found

you did great, and even though Holly and I became the baseline, it was you and I happening to have the stars align that set up the rest of the game.

 

[VashTheStampede]

Dude there was *LESS* than no rule about rule claiming.

In the DM to me from Zell when he gave me my rule, HE EVEN OUTLINED THE WAY IN WHICH I WOULD NEED TO CLAIM MY ROLE.

He said outright before the game started to all that this particular variant WAS A GAME OF ROLE CLAIMING.

Not only was it not in the rules, it was PART OF THE GAME.

This is a good point that I did not previously consider.

 

[A Punched Face]

Dude there was *LESS* than no rule about rule claiming.

In the DM to me from Zell when he gave me my rule, HE EVEN OUTLINED THE WAY IN WHICH I WOULD NEED TO CLAIM MY ROLE.

He said outright before the game started to all that this particular variant WAS A GAME OF ROLE CLAIMING.

Not only was it not in the rules, it was PART OF THE GAME.

Yeah. Plus multiple roles needed to legitimately out themselves in order to use their powers (Priest and Gunner).

 

[Fool's Requiem]

So you had no problem with me BIG FUCKING QUOTES "manipulating the rules" when it benefited you, right? Just when you were the victim of it?

Wolves abstaining from killing doesn't screw anyone over except the wolves themselves, though. Also, I objected to all of your decisions, if you recall.

Edit: You also double checked with FQ before acting officially.

 

[Ryan!]

Also Vash kinda got me killed by going for FQ, but I'm not salty about it since she was a good target for a sighting. And she was probably gonna keep tagging me anyway unless someone more potent came up.

 

[Cole]

Wolves abstaining from killing doesn't screw anyone over except the wolves themselves, though. Also, I objected to all of your decisions, if you recall.

Are you fucking dense?

The wolves abstaining in game 1 is what caused ALL OF THE CHAOS that resulted in us sliding by with virtually no suspicion the ENTIRE GAME. It was ONE event that caused a chain of other events.

Kinda like in this game, where I chose to adhere to the rules and announced my role. It caused a chain of events that sent things into a frenzy.

Edit: You also double checked with FQ before acting officially.

I DIDNT NEED TO CHECK WITH ZELL. He explicitly said role claiming was a PART OF THIS GAME.



and heres me saying I didn't plan to do that, because I don't like role claiming outright for no reason.



but then I settled on a strategy that resulted in the same game.

Your problem is me using the rules was okay as long as it helped you win. And im a big mean internet man for using them to kill you instead.

Seriously. Just stop. I don't have the smallest bit of care about anything you have to say about wolf anymore.

 

[Fool's Requiem]

You keep arguing like I have objection to you revealing your role, which is not the case...

 

[Ryan!]

Also also, @Zell 17, let's assume I wasn't lying and was actually the Bodyguard. Would the Berserker kill on someone I protected instantly kill me as well? Or would I still need to be attacked another time?

 

[Cole]

You keep arguing like I have objection to you revealing your role, which is not the case...

yeah that's fine man, move your fucking goal posts. I "bullied" you in to revealing your role, I "bullied" others, I "manipulated the rules", no one but me, Zell and another potential witch knew I directly quoted my role PM. No one. Holly realized and admitted it. Zell even FLAT OUT SAID basically "you did nothing wrong Cole, but I wanna stop this for the future".

 

[Tommy Boy]

I personally have a hard time of letting go of grudges. typically if I don't like someone, I never will. but I've tried so hard at these forums to just let go, be an adult, make amends and remember we were all dumb kids with shitty attitudes.

whether some were in jest or not, there's so many posts in both threads about how I ruined the game, forced people to do this forced people do that. I was "gloating" and trying to manipulate the rules in my favor.

I appreciate the honesty and although I don't think this post is directed at me, it's very obvious that we didn't get along for a long period of time. That being said, I think this game was a good example of us moving on from the GW part and being able to coexist without there being any grudge. We made amends and things have been real cool. Hell, my strategy for day 0 wasn't to latch onto any specific person, but you totally had the most sound logic from the beginning. I supported you because of you - you know the game, you're good at it, and I believed you were honest. Again, I know this isn't really directed towards me, but I want you to know that I don't think you ruined the game at all. You're certainly the most robust and loudest in the room, but that's not a negative trait. In fact, I'm a little envious at your ability to command a room. Not that I have any practical reason to possess that trait, but in this instance I think you did a fine job leading the way for the townies this game.

and just makes me feel like some of these other people weren't interested in separating old GW from GWF.

and it absolutely does make me reconsider playing. I don't want anyone to come in and be like "no, keep playing. you're fun to play with" I'm not looking for pity hugs.

this just sucks.

and it hurts.

Not for nothing, I think that you treated me with total fairness and respect - never did you accuse me just because "Tommy lol" - you weighed your options and you did what worked. So, I know you're seeing a few posts against the way you play, but I think you're a worthy adversary and you played a fine game of Wolf, man. Even when I was totally fucked, you were never rude to me about how bad I was the fool lol.

So yeah, keep playing. You're fun to play with. STFU you damn pro.

 

[Fool's Requiem]

yeah that's fine man, move your fucking goal posts. I "bullied" you in to revealing your role, I "bullied" others, I "manipulated the rules", no one but me, Zell and another potential witch knew I directly quoted my role PM. No one. Holly realized and admitted it. Zell even FLAT OUT SAID basically "you did nothing wrong Cole, but I wanna stop this for the future".

Can I suggest taking this to the TDome so we don't keep arguing in this thread?

 

[Cole]

Can I suggest taking this to the TDome so we don't keep arguing in this thread?

You can suggest just fucking off if you like? I'm done arguing about it. You claimed I "ruined the game"? Great. You ruined my experience playing them in general.

 

[VashTheStampede]

Or both sides can just agree to disagree and drop it.

 

[A Punched Face]

I think it should be pretty damn obvious at this point that Cole didn't "ruin the game" by doing something he wasn't supposed to do. He literally followed instructions to a T and then things snowballed. I don't think anyone could have known it would have turned out to have 3 people fully confirmed in their roles on day 1. It was super lucky that shortkut checked Ants and Cole, and Cole getting confirmed by Holly (because she was trying to call him out on lying).

Cole claiming a role and Holly calling BS - both of those are normal actions for a game like this. Shortkut claiming a role and trying to direct us at someone? Also a normal play. You just don't normally expect it all to happen at once and on day 1.

 

[Cole]

I appreciate the honesty and although I don't think this post is directed at me, it's very obvious that we didn't get along for a long period of time. That being said, I think this game was a good example of us moving on from the GW part and being able to coexist without there being any grudge. We made amends and things have been real cool. Hell, my strategy for day 0 wasn't to latch onto any specific person, but you totally had the most sound logic from the beginning. I supported you because of you - you know the game, you're good at it, and I believed you were honest. Again, I know this isn't really directed towards me, but I want you to know that I don't think you ruined the game at all. You're certainly the most robust and loudest in the room, but that's not a negative trait. In fact, I'm a little envious at your ability to command a room. Not that I have any practical reason to possess that trait, but in this instance I think you did a fine job leading the way for the townies this game.

Not for nothing, I think that you treated me with total fairness and respect - never did you accuse me just because "Tommy lol" - you weighed your options and you did what worked. So, I know you're seeing a few posts against the way you play, but I think you're a worthy adversary and you played a fine game of Wolf, man. Even when I was totally fucked, you were never rude to me about how bad I was the fool lol.

So yeah, keep playing. You're fun to play with. STFU you damn pro.

I had no reason to insult your play. It was ambiguous and fairly well done. Some of it was suspicious, latching on to me, the vote change, but even then, at no point was I like "wow, he's definitely an enemy and BOY does he suck at it" I said "...okay so those are a little sketchy". You did fine. Ryan apparently had a better read on you than I did.

 

[Zell 17]

Also also, @Zell 17, let's assume I wasn't lying and was actually the Bodyguard. Would the Berserker kill on someone I protected instantly kill me as well? Or would I still need to be attacked another time?

BG would die. But if they were revived, they would still have “both shields”. Similar if they were shot by the gunner or killed by the witch.

If the BG died because they were hit twice, they would be revived and only need one hit to be killed.

 

[Zell 17]

Or both sides can just agree to disagree and drop it.

Please? I feel like I broke GWv2.

 

[Jawneh]

It was easy after a stroke of luck on day 1 (kut getting a wolf in his comparison). Also lucky that Ryan saved Cole, but if he didn't we would have definitely got Ants day 1 anyway. We just would have been down a potion.

This. The serial killer could've easily started to pick off seer roles or others in between the wolves and then slowly keep the numbers fairly balanced to have both sides eat eachother and carry on to victory. Who knows what would've happened.

I dont know if this game was the outlier, but things did go fairly smooth for the townies. Maybe there's way too much power on their side. Maybe some of the powers need to be tweaked to be a bit less powerful or vague. Maybe Zell already has this outlined and tweaked already.

As for myself in this game, I think I was mostly just along for the ride. Instead of grasping straws like in FQs game where I inadvertently started something against Warp, I simply tried to read what people were saying and analyze and point out things from their POV and findings. It did help immensely that we had gotten some guaranteed townie roles so I didn't have to fear too much about all possibilities for why this person said x, but is actually not who they claim and want y. I did wonder if I had pushed the agenda of the special roles too much to say "this guy is probably one of them since he's so worried about it", but from what I read at least Ryan didn't pick up on that. I just really wanted someone to shoot.

 

[shortkut]

 

[Cole]

Please? I feel like I broke GWv2.

You didn't do anything wrong man. I am/was hurt, and am/was getting very heated, so I told him what I really think.

I'm done, dont worry. You ran a fun game Zell. I'm not in love with the tons of roles and everyone having roles and how complicated it was. But the more I realized how it went down, the more I saw some of the intricate balance in the roles. I still disagree that the town has an advantage, and theres a fair amount of your rules I want you to reconsider (and we've discussed them, and on some you agree), but it was a really fun game. Great job.,

 

[Ants!]

thats all well and good, and I have a LOT to contribute to balance and fairness, I know what game weaknesses and strengths look like, because I'm good at finding the optimal way to play any given version, but the fucking talking behind my back salt in this thread has me reconsidering even being a part of it.

You’re right. I could say I was venting a little, and I even mentioned you would likely be coming to read it later, but maybe it was a little shitty of me and I’m sorry for my part of it. However I have to say, this particular post of yours irked me a little bit. No excuse for sure, but that’s where some of my salt was coming from.

 

[Cole]

View attachment 1267

WOW shortkut, you tried to use the rules as written t o give yourself an advantage?! TERRIBLE

 

[shortkut]

WOW shortkut, you tried to use the rules as written t o give yourself an advantage?! TERRIBLE

I suck, I know

 

[A Punched Face]

I suck, I know

Don't steal my thunder.