Zell Wolf Zell Wolf Rebirth (Just kidding, you're dead)

[A Maybe Baker]

that's my point. no one but me even acknowledged that raposa could have been clearing another wolf, and instead just went "nah, let's just lynch someone else"

I actually did - I mentioned that it made me uneasy that Kelly was so quick to jump to supporting me and stuck there the whole time.

Again...not sure why no one else did.

 

[Local Hero]

Oh, I forgot to mention that I consider it a personal victory that Benzine thought I was good and Kelly was evil in the final day. It might have been a ploy for reactions or info, but I appreciated it

 

[Cole]

Cole can I ask you maybe what seems like a similar question but a different way?

What was the biggest reason you think you guys lost this particular game? Particularly from a format perspective. From the outside looking in it seemed like the town could have had no seers at all and it would have progressed the same way but I don’t have the same perspective that you do

the format being the same is what caused the loss. Kelly's strategy was effective only because of the format, and while it's not ever how id wanna play townie, it's going to be effective because 90% of the players that play your game are either awful liars, or don't wanna lie

lying and role claiming are the core function of your game, and it literally is not working how you wanted to.

I've stated my opinion on role claiming before. banning it outright is a silly choice in my opinion, but building a game around it is clearly not working either.

I am not pretending to have all the answers, I don't know what it would take for *your* version of the game to be a reliable coin flip for the teams.

all I know is that we're not currently there.

 

[Cole]

I actually did - I mentioned that it made me uneasy that Kelly was so quick to jump to supporting me and stuck there the whole time.

Again...not sure why no one else did.

I know you did. but that wasn't going to help, because it wasn't going to sway your vote on Raposa for obvious reasons.

 

[A Maybe Baker]

I know you did. but that wasn't going to help, because it wasn't going to sway your vote on Raposa for obvious reasons.

You mean to tell me that you're not an effective enough liar to make me not believe myself?

 

[Cole]

You mean to tell me that you're not an effective enough liar to make me not believe myself?

apparently not.

I was hoping to make you believe strongly enough in a shaman to side with me though.

basically we suggested to raposa to pick someone and name them evil. I gave you as an example, he ran with it, then I was hell bent on trying to get you lynched with it ONLY because everyone else entirely fucking ignored it.

 

[A Maybe Baker]

apparently not.

I was hoping to make you believe strongly enough in a shaman to side with me though.

basically we suggested to raposa to pick someone and name them evil. I gave you as an example, he ran with it, then I was hell bent on trying to get you lynched with it ONLY because everyone else entirely fucking ignored it.

Yeah, I understood the strategy behind it for sure. And I even threw out the possibility of the Shaman being a reason for a potential wrong read on me. I had my doubts it was true because of the sheer odds of me being the target from both on a full list of 16 players being so low, but it was always a possibility.

I think at that point people just felt like they trusted Tommy Boy as a seer more, and not having more than 2 seer claims really narrowed down the options.

 

[Cole]

Yeah, I understood the strategy behind it for sure. And I even threw out the possibility of the Shaman being a reason for a potential wrong read on me. I had my doubts it was true because of the sheer odds of me being the target from both on a full list of 16 players being so low, but it was always a possibility.

I think at that point people just felt like they trusted Tommy Boy as a seer more, and not having more than 2 seer claims really narrowed down the options.

I don't think it would be that far fetched. you're a high priority target.

also, when you basically called me useless (in the best possible way) and told me to check my pm from Zell, I was going to claim the next morning that I was aura seer.

"I know you guys aren't going to believe me..."

but by then the majority of wolves had already thrown in the towel.

but it would've been fun.

 

[A Maybe Baker]

also, when you basically called me useless (in the best possible way) and told me to check my pm from Zell, I was going to claim the next morning that I was aura seer.

That was 100% what I was expecting to happen. Like 1% of me was saying "god damn that's actually possible maybe @Tommy Boy figured out how to lie without having a panic attack"

 

[A Maybe Baker]

@Zell 17 when do we get to try and figure out who the MVP is?

 

[Cole]

That was 100% what I was expecting to happen. Like 1% of me was saying "god damn that's actually possible maybe @Tommy Boy figured out how to lie without having a panic attack"

I still think Tommy is capable of it and he's hiding it. but that's beside the point.

as I've said before, in this thread, it's not just about winning for me. it's seeing what I can get you guys to believe, seeing how convincing I can be

I came up with that "I haven't checked my pm" thing out of no where. and then when you demanded I check, while every one was also saying "there's no other aura seer claims" I knew what I had to try.

but by the time I woke up, everyone was already set on the game being over and I didn't feel like wasting the energy trying to sell a massive lie

 

[Tommy Boy]

Like Tommy and others, I really don't enjoy lying. I think we all have changed our play styles to be much more respectful, but it still sucks. I think this is made worse because the wolves are at such a disadvantage that there's a bit of a desperation to every play. Not sure how to explain it...

Being a wolf is way harder than it comes off. I hate being evil because I hate lying. And in a game where deception is the only way you can win on the evil team, it feels hopeless when you simply don't enjoy lying regardless of the circumstances. I agree with you. It's just tough.

For example, (this is not a criticism of Zell or the town) when I was shushed, and Zell directly asked me to vote to skip, even though I couldn't vote for lynching, and I mistakenly responded in the thread instead of PM, everyone was demanding a punishment, even though we were already in such a vulnerable position. And it made me sad

To be fair, I was just confused by the mechanic and thought that breaking a mute had no consequence. It was very quickly clarified and there were no hard feelings. I more or less was like "yo wtf does that mean muting doesn't work?" and when it was explained, I was like "oh" and moved on right away. It wouldn't have been fair to reveal your role if it was an accident. All good man. You probably had it a little more easier than the wolves with evil auras, but it's still extremely hard either way.

 

[A Maybe Baker]

I still think Tommy is capable of it and he's hiding it. but that's beside the point.

as I've said before, in this thread, it's not just about winning for me. it's seeing what I can get you guys to believe, seeing how convincing I can be

I came up with that "I haven't checked my pm" thing out of no where. and then when you demanded I check, while every one was also saying "there's no other aura seer claims" I knew what I had to try.

but by the time I woke up, everyone was already set on the game being over and I didn't feel like wasting the energy trying to sell a massive lie

I honestly believed that you could have possibly just ignored the PM and tried to play it that way as a fun way to see how effective you could be with literally 0 knowledge going in. So I figured I needed to call you on it just to be sure.

 

[Cole]

I honestly believed that you could have possibly just ignored the PM and tried to play it that way as a fun way to see how effective you could be with literally 0 knowledge going in. So I figured I needed to call you on it just to be sure.

I do too. and if I was gonna play one of Zells again, it's definitely something I might try, just for shits and giggles.

 

[A Maybe Baker]

For example, (this is not a criticism of Zell or the town) when I was shushed, and Zell directly asked me to vote to skip, even though I couldn't vote for lynching, and I mistakenly responded in the thread instead of PM, everyone was demanding a punishment, even though we were already in such a vulnerable position. And it made me sad

I was 100% fine with you posting the skip like that and getting no consequences for it. I was also the last person to have the opportunity to chime in on it though.

 

[Local Hero]

I was thinking more about balance.

I thought of a potential solution.
Literal balance.

Even number of townies, even number of wolves.

No one knows who their teammates are

Every strong role has an opposite team equivalent.

No coordinating in group PMs. Wolves vote individually, and most townie votes dies (certain roles would have more weight in case of ties).

Wolves get one night kill, townie have several night kills.

Thoughts? I'm sure this won't be well received lol

 

[Cole]

I was thinking more about balance.

I thought of a potential solution.
Literal balance.

Even number of townies, even number of wolves.

No one knows who their teammates are

Every strong role has an opposite team equivalent.

No coordinating in group PMs. Wolves vote individually, and most townie votes dies (certain roles would have more weight in case of ties).

Wolves get one night kill, townie have several night kills.

Thoughts? I'm sure this won't be well received lol

that becomes no longer wolf though. and some other entity entirely.

 

[Local Hero]

that becomes no longer wolf though. and some other entity entirely.

That's fine. Call it whatever you want.

 

[A Maybe Baker]

That's fine. Call it whatever you want.

Local Hero's Murder Ball

 

[Local Hero]

Local Hero's Murder Ball

Canadaguy gets unlimited bullets. Kelly gets unlimited STDs

 

[shortkut]

I do too. and if I was gonna play one of Zells again, it's definitely something I might try, just for shits and giggles.

I assumed you got 2 PMs from Zell before you logged in and so you ignored the solo PM because at that point you were now wolf

 

[Jon]

that becomes no longer wolf though. and some other entity entirely.

But maybe that's a version we can try. If I had time, I'd try to run one, but I'm not familiar enough with any of this.

Going back to the question of what mechanically killed us? I don't think there is one. A series of unfortunate events really.

Personally, my by biggest suggestion on balance is an overhaul of abilities. Town definitely gets better ones. And there are more of them, so it can easily stack the deck. Doing things like guaranteeing only a couple protector roles per game. Or fizzling the Ritualist's rez after s/he dies. Or splitting that role up because talking to the dead and getting a free rez feels overpowered. Or not using a up a confusion charge if no targets would actually be revealed. Or witch potions getting ONLY a one time use; if they fail to protect, it's gone. Minor tweaks like that, and that's only from our game here that stood out.

I'm not saying all of these should be done or that it would help, but doing it and rechecking the data goes a long way. Things like this rebalance the game and it's how developers use past statistics to rebalance abilities in multiplayer games. The town just has more good abilities. Maybe also not showing any guaranteed wolf roles. Because the random wolf roles were the only ones that gave the wolves a chance to cause doubt.

Lastly, I really believe there needs to be an outright ban on what Kelly did. Info is 100% king in these games. And it is a MAJOR issue when your forcing bad liars into lying from the get. It may feel like it's the ONLY way the town can win, but again, the town always wins this game. Something like that is just bad form in my eyes.




(WHY COULDN'T I FIND A GOOD BAD FORM, PETER GIF!?)

 

[Cole]

I assumed you got 2 PMs from Zell before you logged in and so you ignored the solo PM because at that point you were now wolf

no, it was a lie. I read the pm. I had a fun plan for fan.

 

[A Maybe Baker]

no, it was a lie. I read the pm. I had a fun plan for fan.

When Cole is targeted on the first night, even when he doesn't die, it spoils his fun.

 

[Cole]

When Cole is targeted on the first night, even when he doesn't die, it spoils his fun.

it really does. I think the first thing I said in wolf pm was "you mother fuckers"

 

[Jon]

it really does. I think the first thing I said in wolf pm was "you mother fuckers"

 

[Jon]

 

[Kat]

I'm working so didn't read the whole thread.

Not killing benzine before he could revive anyone

His revive works even if he's dead. Killing him doesn't really help unless you can do it while you know who is spelled.

It also sucks that the townies who are normally good at finding wolves (TD, Cole, etc.) tend to be killed early by the wolves, so they aren't a threat later.

TD got killed because he asked to be jailed and we didn't want to wait to berserk.

Kat role claiming after they turned the fan. Could have let us think there was just no kill

Idk why you would think that. Why would wolves intentionally kill no one the first night?

 

[shortkut]

Idk why you would think that. Why would wolves intentionally kill no one the first night?

It’s happened before, I don’t think anyone would be surprised

 

[A Maybe Baker]

I'm working so didn't read the whole thread.


His revive works even if he's dead. Killing him doesn't really help unless you can do it while you know who is spelled.


TD got killed because he asked to be jailed and we didn't want to wait to berserk.


Idk why you would think that. Why would wolves intentionally kill no one the first night?

Will reply here so you get a notice on it:

I thought you had a smart play. I always thought maybe you did it to hide the fact that you found the fan, but what really did it in for you was that Raposa had resigned before he was lynched. At that point I felt it had to be because you all had found the fan and got up to 6.

 

[Smacktard]

I mean objectively it didn't make sense to go Berserk on the Tough Guy either - even if it did ultimately work out. So who knows. (I also never realized Berserk could steamroll through Tough Guy, lol). I was trying to signal nobody to protect me too.

I think it was just because you mentioned a few times you'd like to be jailed. You mentioned it more than once before end of day. But yeah, also cause you're a strong player, and probably cause you sussed out like 5 of the wolves day 1.

The wolves are complaining about how stacked this game has been against them...

Am I fucking crazy?

The game was stacked against the town. Going into Day 2, we had absolutely ZERO actionable information. The wolves had plenty of options, but they tried to brute force a win.

I was kind of shocked Kelly didn't let it ruminate for a while

Wanted to get ahead with the info. Claims that come later in the day are generally seen as less trustworthy, even if there's a good reason for delays.

soon as everyone realized you could force people to name their roles and process of elimination the rest, the games moot

That's not true. The wolves could've role claimed, but they refused to. As soon as they saw the townies doing it, they should've hopped on board.

Here, with Kelly pulling a Leeroy Jenkins thing from the get, it made it really hard to stay hidden. and I know that's the point... but man, to say the wolves weren't disadvantaged from THAT

All you had to do was claim a role type. Scatter a few in random, a few in guaranteed. Going into Day 2, the town was blind. If the wolves didn't

So now I'm even more confused at the innocent people that said Kelly's initial plan was bad for the town.

More info only helps the town. That's how the town wins.

It DID have the ability (when used with the seer) to pretty much give away the tough guy roles and the warden though -- they are the only ones with good aura.

It was the way he was forcing the issue. In my opinion, it directly lead to the double berserker kill

Maybe, but I thought the berserker kill was because TD asked to be put in jail multiple times and they realized he probably had been -- but with a townie.

Kelly's mute of me was utterly pointless because I wasn't going to post anyway, lol. My theory was going to ket the town overanalyze without getting more words to twist. Kelly's mind works in a twisted way I can't follow lol.

Don't take it personally, I was just muting the wolves 1 by 1.

I thought about doing just this, but the hold up was Benzine. He could talk to TD and Raine and corroborate, and no one challenged his role

Someone only needed to challenge his role on Day 2. He wasn't able to corroborate with TD and Raine then.

However, I will always humor Cole on getting feedback.

After the last game it was near unanimous that the changes I made to formatting caused the game to be balanced.

Do you still feel that way after this game? Do you feel that the game is balanced, or do you feel that more changes need to be made?

Last game felt balanced. This game felt very unbalanced in favor of the wolves.

that was very confusing to me, and this IS me being a little bitter, but it almost felt personal. It almost felt like a case of "we like Alu so we're just going to trust him", because there was NO REASON that literally every other townie in the game completely brushed aside a read on you

It wasn't personal. It was because the wolves weren't trying to provide the town any direction. They weren't doing any favors. I had a plausible story for why I was a townie, and wolves kept going after me. IMO it felt like it was revenge for the strategy I provided. Meanwhile Alu sounded like he genuinely wanted to help the town.

Wolves had a few avenues Day 2. No one in town has any proof of who was who.
An easy and believable win would've been for Raposa to sell Local as evil, casting doubt on Tommy's claim. Guardian wolf him that night, and wolves win cause

The problem was that the wolves didn't vote with the town. The game was virtually 7 v 6 with no trustworthy information given to the town. Instead, the wolves went after the only person who had credible info (me), and didn't contest my claims about being locked up or that Raine was warden. I don't see in what world you think that a 7v6 game favors the town.

that's my point. no one but me even acknowledged that raposa could have been clearing another wolf, and instead just went "nah, let's just lynch someone else"

Maybe because I voted in favor of Raposa? If I were a wolf, why would I vote for a wolf? If it was a play, go along with it until more info comes out.

 

[Jon]

The wolves had plenty of options, but they tried to brute force a win.

You said this a few times, but please know it's not true. We never had the numbers to Brute force. The idea was to wait for one townie to get a vote and then find a way to latch on for the lynch. We NEVER got the chance. The town united into a wolf and we had no where to go. Everything we said was shot down. We were cocky in that we thought "we'll get it tomorrow" but we never tried to brute force a win. We couldn't because we didn't have the numbers.

Don't take it personally, I was just muting the wolves 1 by 1.

Lol, no worries dude, nothing personal about it. I called the mute on me, but my strat going into that day was "I'm not going to say a word, let the town argue with themselves." So I just found it funny is all.

All you had to do was claim a role type. Scatter a few in random, a few in guaranteed. Going into Day 2, the town was blind. If the wolves didn't

I don't like that style of play though. To be completely honest with you, I was shocked that I was assumed wolf so quickly because my first few posts were nothing but GIFs (to which TD IMMEDIATELY sus'd me as a wolf and I don't know why) and my first real game post was in response to you and I would have said the SAME thing as a villager because, as I've said a few times, I really don't like that style of gameplay. I like the detective work.

So maybe it was simply my lack of experience in a wolf game with all of you that made me sus and I happen to draw the wolf card.

I'm SHOCKED no one made mention my avatar is a wolf though.... lol

 

[finlandguy]

You said this a few times, but please know it's not true. We never had the numbers to Brute force.

We did lol. We just got blinded by the three kills and went for something forceful instead of taking it like a normal day. What Kelly says is true. Crapping on Local would've very easily gotten us the game at that point, but we didn't think it all through properly.

 

[Kat]

Will reply here so you get a notice on it:

I thought you had a smart play. I always thought maybe you did it to hide the fact that you found the fan, but what really did it in for you was that Raposa had resigned before he was lynched. At that point I felt it had to be because you all had found the fan and got up to 6.

This is the kinda funny thing about this game: @Raposuh can correct me if I'm wrong, but I think he did that just because he was already dead anyway and we knew everybody's roles. He counted towards the wolf win condition even without resigning, so it wasn't so we'd have six wolves when we next killed someone.

So you were right but just coincidentally.

 

[Kat]

I don't like that style of play though. To be completely honest with you, I was shocked that I was assumed wolf so quickly because my first few posts were nothing but GIFs (to which TD IMMEDIATELY sus'd me as a wolf and I don't know why

Everybody is suspected pretty early. Making accusations and seeing responses is how you ferret out wolves.

IMO the biggest mistakes (besides not all jumping onto the Tommy Boy vote at the last minute) we made were being too defensive about accusations and not trying to claim any roles. Once that happened and we missed our chance to end the game, it was too obvious who we all were, and turning the tide become impossible. Imagine if we had all cooperated with Kelly's plan while townies refused? I think it might've gone a different way.

 

[A Maybe Baker]

This is the kinda funny thing about this game: @Raposuh can correct me if I'm wrong, but I think he did that just because he was already dead anyway and we knew everybody's roles. He counted towards the wolf win condition even without resigning, so it wasn't so we'd have six wolves when we next killed someone.

So you were right but just coincidentally.

@Zell 17 I thought the sorcerer had to resign to count towards the win total. Is that not true? Am I just remembering wrong from when I had the role?

 

[Cole]

@Zell 17 I thought the sorcerer had to resign to count towards the win total. Is that not true? Am I just remembering wrong from when I had the role?

he specifically said the sorceror would count becsuse "what's the point in him just resigning in order to win"

 

[shortkut]

@Zell 17 I thought the sorcerer had to resign to count towards the win total. Is that not true? Am I just remembering wrong from when I had the role?

It must have changed because before that was a condition as well as gaining access to wolf chat and voting from resigning

 

[Raine]

All the quote replies, woo being far behind.

Here, with Kelly pulling a Leeroy Jenkins thing from the get, it made it really hard to stay hidden. and I know that's the point... but man, to say the wolves weren't disadvantaged from THAT would be a lit. The rest was random roles and the unlucky snag of Cole on night 0.

I'm going to mention this a lot... but, I was pro-town. I lied to Kelly's face multiple times. I knew he knew I was lying, and I pressed harder. He escalated. I threw his ass in prison where he could have died.

You don't have to get pressed into doing what you don't want, you just need a pre-planned role and some semblance of an idea of how you're going to claw out of whatever hole they throw you into. ...Having an actual role do help though, obviously.

So now I'm even more confused at the innocent people that said Kelly's initial plan was bad for the town.

More info only helps the town. That's how the town wins.

As others said, it was the method rather than the strategy. Kelly went full authoritarian with it; if my role was an active killer, I quite possibly would have taken him out directly as a matter of principle.

Aside from which: I'm always going to lie about my role in some way, shape or form. Trying to press me on it isn't going to change that, it's just more likely to get that person killed off.

I have no recollection of this game. Was this when I called him a dumdum like 10 times?

Yes, yes it was. Cole is a wolf, etc., etc. That game.

It was the way he was forcing the issue. In my opinion, it directly lead to the double berserker kill

Well, it definitely convinced the wolves that going for it was a good idea. The fact is, as per earlier in this thread, TD and Kelly were marked for imprisonment almost half a day before the end of the phase - and well before any public discussion of wanting to be jailed with anyone else.

We had to guess multiple protections. And his revive is permanent. Even had we got him, the revive supersedes his death. That was kinda what screwed us. The fact it doens't fizzle on his death.

This is, I think, only the second time the Ritualist has appeared. I was the first Ritualist, and had my resurrection spell on Alu - who was a wolf - for a decent part of the game.

Just need to 1) have someone convincing out there and 2) actually figure out who the Ritualist is so you can kill them in a timely manner.

Cole says the only way the game can be balanced is if there is a Fool and if there is a villager role that shows evil. Why? Every game there's been a Fool, they have been killed Day / Night 1 because they haven't been able to hide it.

Nobody has played Fool correctly yet, is the problem. They're always actively trying to get lynched out of the gate - that's doing it wrong.

But yes, minimally, with the roles that are in the dictionary, I don't believe it will ever be possible to win as the wolves in a strictly town-vs-wolf format. With the singular exception of blitz formations; if the assortment of jobs doesn't support that (and many to date haven't), then they lose.

This is risky, but if you felt like you HAD to mislynch on Day 2 you could have pushed hard on Smacktard. Have Jon claim that he was the Warden (since day 1 he said he was a guaranteed role) and that Kelly was lying about being jailed. Say you jailed Cole and Jawneh or something. That would give all three of you reason to immediately vote Smacktard.

Just to latch on to this, and continue from the above (and prior comments in this thread): Because I lied - because I always lie - my public claims put me as Tough Guy/Witch/Marksman. The wolves needed to pick up on this and capitalize.

Per the blitz strategy, tomorrow doesn't matter. Only today. Immediately call Kelly out when he lists me as Warden out of the blue and TD as Tough Guy - why does he know this? How could he possibly know this? Yadda yadda. I think that was a lowkey missed play.

Bonus points because I hadn't received the jailhouse transcript and therefore couldn't technically have convinced Benzine I was really the Warden, directly.

Zell, the fact that the wolves have never won a game of yours should be proof that your format isn't working as intended, but you still refuse to make any substantial changes or hear any substantial criticism, all you reply with is "here's what everyone did wrong!"

I do genuinely believe the last(?) game, with the Illusionist and Blind Wolf, was the right balance. There absolutely has to be some sort of Night 0 or early game obfuscating of someone's role - Confusion Wolf, Illusionist, Trickster Wolf, whatever - and there has to be at least three, but probably ideally all four, factions present.

The town is indeed lacking in murderous impulse, but the extra threat of the Fool does go a certain distance. Plus the presence of the Fool (and the Solo Killer) adds to the confusion of who all is trying to vie for those coveted 4 Random Villager slots, and that's super important. When it's just towns and wolves competing, it's at best a coin toss.

my posting style doesn't change unless I want it to change, and its gonna change no matter what role I am.

It does, but there's... something about it, specifically, that I think is your tell. Which, we all have tells.

There's no way I can immediately think of to not make this sound a touch creepy so please forgive me.

But I've watched you, studied you, dissected how you do things and tried figuring out how you operate. Both in the long, long ago and the present. I've watched you and TD go at it dozens of times, I've watch you argue with Sabat, with Voldemort, with Alu, and - yeah. The way you did it was different, and I don't think it had anything to do with being sick. Which, on that note - hopefully you're starting to feel better!

The exact way you went about your standard "Day 1 lynches are dumb" is what put me over the edge with suspecting you, though.

Do you still feel that way after this game? Do you feel that the game is balanced, or do you feel that more changes need to be made?

See above. It was hard to tell earlier in the thread, but yeah - just a straight arms race doesn't do it, I don't think. There has to be that extra wiggle room for the wolves to make mistakes, for the town to genuinely second guess itself, for a third party to waltz in and fuck up both of their plans.

What I'm saying is we need to turn Item Boxes back on and not play on Final Destination.

I'm not the best player here, I'm just willing to try shit no one else will try.

You do have a skill that most of us don't, though. Your ability to cold read people, and create situations where you can trip them up, is something I've tried - and failed - to figure out. Same with TD. I just can't do it.

So I'm forever stuck as the support role.

there are 247 different potential seers in this game, and thats not even factoring in that there can be more than one. "This game didn't have that many!" I'm aware, but it's still an issue that y our games have run up against.

Also way too many pro-town roles do way, way, way too many things. Things I'm sure Zell himself hasn't fully considered, like what just happened with Warden.

Which can also be used as a Seer in a more direct way. On top of being a killer, a double protector, a double disruptor... A fully hidden Warden is 100% capable of completely shutting down an enemy force entirely on its own. Zero consideration for whatever else is in the arsenal.

To wit...

Personally, my by biggest suggestion on balance is an overhaul of abilities. Town definitely gets better ones. And there are more of them, so it can easily stack the deck.

Tons of roles do the same things, with many explicitly being worse versions of others (see: Gunner vs Marksman).

Stripping them down a bit, categorizing them by type, assigning "power points" to each and instituting a cap on the number of power points that can exist in each category would be the happy medium between insisting on truly random roles and a more specific, hand-crafted game. The latter of which I still very much want to see Zell do.

Idk why you would think that. Why would wolves intentionally kill no one the first night?

Two reasons immediately come to mind, one of which I've previously mentioned:

1) Avoiding Night 0 Spirit Seer checks and starting the town off with zero information. If you have a Guardian Wolf, this is potentially even better since you don't necessarily start off a step behind on the arms race.

2) Claiming an irrefutable protector. Ostensibly only the wolves and the protector would know better. Doesn't really work as well Night 0 if you ask me, and so it's definitely more of a risk (which is sort of the point).

I was shocked that I was assumed wolf so quickly because my first few posts were nothing but GIFs (to which TD IMMEDIATELY sus'd me as a wolf and I don't know why)

He didn't have a read, he was bullying you to get a reaction that he could then get a read on.

Cole and Kelly will do it to you, too. Alu is about the only person that can consistently get away with entirely shrugging these off without moving the needle in some way.

 

[Zell 17]

Which can also be used as a Seer in a more direct way. On top of being a killer, a double protector, a double disruptor... A fully hidden Warden is 100% capable of completely shutting down an enemy force entirely on its own. Zero consideration for whatever else is in the arsenal.

Warden has some weaknesses though. I consider it basically equal to Jailer overall. Jailer is stupidly overpowered in endgames (You've seen how this plays out in Vash's mafia games, where there is basically a permanent jailer the cannot be killed). The Warden's weakness is that it must always jail a villager, or else they will be killed. The jailed villager has no use of their abilities. Also, the Warden is much weaker than the Jailer in endgames because they can't jail the same person consecutive times and they MUST pick two people. So very often they have nobody eligible to jail.

 

[shortkut]

It does, but there's... something about it, specifically, that I think is your tell. Which, we all have tells.

There's no way I can immediately think of to not make this sound a touch creepy so please forgive me.

But I've watched you, studied you, dissected how you do things and tried figuring out how you operate. Both in the long, long ago and the present. I've watched you and TD go at it dozens of times, I've watch you argue with Sabat, with Voldemort, with Alu, and - yeah. The way you did it was different, and I don't think it had anything to do with being sick. Which, on that note - hopefully you're starting to feel better!

The exact way you went about your standard "Day 1 lynches are dumb" is what put me over the edge with suspecting you, though

I tried telling him but he didn’t believe me. He was more pedantic and his arguments were weaker than usual. I attributed it to him seemingly trying to carry the wolf team because it seemed like a lot of them gave up. I didn’t notice anything off day 1, however

Two reasons immediately come to mind, one of which I've previously mentioned:

1) Avoiding Night 0 Spirit Seer checks and starting the town off with zero information. If you have a Guardian Wolf, this is potentially even better since you don't necessarily start off a step behind on the arms race.

2) Claiming an irrefutable protector. Ostensibly only the wolves and the protector would know better. Doesn't really work as well Night 0 if you ask me, and so it's definitely more of a risk (which is sort of the point).

This

 

[Zell 17]

Last game felt balanced. This game felt very unbalanced in favor of the wolves.

See why it's fun hosting? You gotta reconcile this with the others who think that the wolves had absolutely no chance. And you guys are all talking about the same game!

 

[Benzine]

Still hilarious we came back from what looked like a rort. This game played like a chess gambit gone right in the end though.

 

[Local Hero]

This game felt very unbalanced in favor of the wolves.

Hard disagree

 

[Benzine]

If you guys don't convert Cole the first night, we get squashed. I'm certain of it.

 

[Tubby23]

Hard disagree

Definitely agree with the wolf team here, if you cancel our the noise of the town heading down the wrong path and how quickly it swung back in our favour there was some level of unbalance.

 

[Benzine]

If we play this exact format again I will pray to be a wolf.

 

[Local Hero]

If we play this exact format again I will pray to be a wolf.

 

[Benzine]

@Zell 17 can we get Jekyll and Hyde?

 

[Local Hero]

@Zell 17 can we get Jekyll and Hyde?

Just look in a mirror, brother