Zell Wolf Zell Wolf Rebirth (Just kidding, you're dead)

[Local Hero]

Here's a thing to think about. Zell has said (don't quote me) that the town can make 4 mistakes and still win.

What mistakes did town make?
Mistake 1 - Broadcasting TD's plan to be jailed, allowing double kill, mistake 1
Mistake 2 - Vash killing himself

Any others?

What mistakes did the wolves make?
Mistake 1 - using confusion and turning Cole (RNG, not really a mistake)
Mistake 2 - not voting for Tommy day 2 (3 minutes to make a decision, didn't know if tubby would switch back. Instant loss if he did)

Any others?

How many mistakes are the wolves allowed and win? Do they have to play perfectly? The town can make several massive mistakes and still win. It feels like any mistake a wolf makes results in a loss.

Sure, is possible for any game to result in a wolf win, even this one, but it's MASSIVELY biased towards town.

 

[Smacktard]

As I said, you read it as that. That was not the intent. I am not arguing what it looked like. Just correcting the intent.

It doesn't matter what the intent is in a game of duplicity. It's perception that matters, and no one perceived what you said as being pro-town.

I could go "TEEHEE guys I'm NOT a wolf, I promise

"
And genuinely mean it... But it wouldn't make me look anything BUT suspicious.

Then I will never play well as a wolf. Because that WAS our only mistake up to that point of the game.

no.

I find it very difficult to believe if you weren't a wolf in this game your tune would be very different.

I gave you what my strategy would be: sell Local. Get the town to attack the alpha. The seeds were planted day 1. It would've been much easier to sell that idea. Like you said, you needed just ONE townie on your side -- so why try to sell a townie? Sell the alpha as bad when half the town tried to vote for him the day before, and then win the game.

It's not "retrospect" -- it's the easiest, most obvious play as a wolf.

We did not have enough to force a vote without getting townies on our side,

...yeah, which is why you shouldn't have tried forcing the vote. It made you all stick out like sore thumbs, especially given how upset you all clearly were about the town choosing Raposa. Voice your concerns, but vote with the town. The town NEEDED a lynch that day, the town needed unity. So, give them the appearance of unity. They didn't need 5 people going "haha no I'm gonna throw a ~symbolic vote~ on someone else just because lol"

 

[Dean]

Here's a thing to think about. Zell has said (don't quote me) that the town can make 4 mistakes and still win.

What mistakes did town make?
Mistake 1 - Broadcasting TD's plan to be jailed, allowing double kill, mistake 1
Mistake 2 - Vash killing himself

Any others?

What mistakes did the wolves make?
Mistake 1 - using confusion and turning Cole (RNG, not really a mistake)
Mistake 2 - not voting for Tommy day 2 (3 minutes to make a decision, didn't know if tubby would switch back. Instant loss if he did)

Any others?

How many mistakes are the wolves allowed and win? Do they have to play perfectly? The town can make several massive mistakes and still win. It feels like any mistake a wolf makes results in a loss.

Sure, is possible for any game to result in a wolf win, even this one, but it's MASSIVELY biased towards town.

I would argue Tubby switching his vote off Raposuh was a big mistake that wasn't capitalized on, so mistake #3

Obviously mistake #4 was Benzine not keeping the resurrection on yours truly so I could be alive at the end of the game

 

[Smacktard]

Any others? (Wolf mistakes)

1. Not hiding behind a role type claim
2. Uniting and claiming I was evil when I was the only one who had credibly proven I was safe
3. Then claiming Raposa was safe even though he confirmed I was good
4. Not getting the town to vote for Local
5. Not getting the town to vote for shortkut
6. Calling one of the only four people who were put down as "random" a wold
7. Saying over and over again that "such and such strategy is dumb" and not providing any other strategy
8. Saying "HAHA MAYBE THERE ARE TWO GUARDIANS" end of day makes you look very sus, like you're mocking the town about a sure win or trying to get yourself killed
9. Not selling one of your own wolves to the town
10. Not contesting my claims that I was jailed with TD and Raine as warden
11. Spreading your votes out instead of voting with the town
12. Basically admitting end of day 2 that you were wolf

The town can make several massive mistakes and still win.

In this game they COULDN'T though. The town COULDN'T make 4 mistakes. They couldn't even make 3 mistakes. Trying to shepherd 10 people around with no way to trust each other and no proof of identities is much harder than working together as a group of 6 whose identities are known.

You just proved in your example that the town could only make 2 mistakes if they wanted to win.

 

[Cole]

I guess if you were all online you could've done that. Seems like a pretty glaring mistake then.

it was. they were afraid of a double back by Tubby so they chose not to do it.

I thought another one of the wolves said it didn't have to do with the strategy, but had to do with TD fingering 5 of the wolves day one?

And anyway, the strategy was what helped out a bunch of wolves in the end and win the town the game that they very well should've lost, so I'm not sure it was as much of a fuck up as you claim.

I just went back through the DMs for that night. no one brought up TDs post, and no one mentioned it before I said "use berserk kill TD that's my vote", another wolf after I said that quoted it and agreed, and said "his sus list was all evil people" after that the vote started and all any one said was the vote.

I can't speak for all of them, but if they were afraid of TD no one had much of a conversatjon about it.

Fair, but seems like an oversight.

maybe it was. but I got the information just from the thread and the chain of events started by your strategy, which AGAIN, I understand it's an effective strategy and did exactly what you needed, but it also did cause that double kill.

It was that strategy that doomed you. Have a little introspection. Even if you are aggressive day 2, channel it in the right direction. The thought process of targetting Alu didn't make sense. If you case doubt on Tommy's claim Local was neutral by saying he was Evil, game over for town.

it's not about introspection. I know where the play failed. I saw a chance and I was willing to take the chance for an aggressive day 2 flat out victory and others agreed. I would 100% do it again, perhaps a different target, perhaps I might have helped to prepare it a little bit better, but I would do it again.

it is extremely easy for you to criticize the strategy now. but consider the fact, again, that we literally won the game but didn't capitalize on it. we convince a Tubby. he switched. if we had done it in the last minute (and again, we could have), it was literally over.

I would do that again every single time in that scenario.

You think the town shouldn't be able to make a single mistake? Seems a little bit unfair.

Hell, I lost the last game as a wolf and it felt way more fair and balanced than this game.

no, the town should absoultely be allowed mistakes, and I never even remotely claimed otherwise.

but you are claiming the game was overpowered for the wolves, and through the sheer force of your skill and our failures, we lost. but the reason you feel that way is as a result of the 7v6 that your side helped to create.

in my opinion it's not a valid reason to consider it imbalanced for the wolves.

 

[Smacktard]

It's not a valid reason to consider it imbalanced for the wolves.

I don't know how the game could be balanced any more in favor of the wolves. Last game was more fair to the town, and even then it felt balanced -- and we wolves lost.

I was sure this game was going to be a mop-up, and the reality is with a different wolf team, it likely would've been. I'm sorry, but that's just the way it is.

 

[Jon]

I was sure this game was going to be a mop-up, and the reality is with a different wolf team, it likely would've been. I'm sorry, but that's just the way it is.

So, now the game is only balanced when a certain subset of people are playing a certain subset of roles? That feels like a weak argument to me.

I'd rather a game be balanced around anyone can get any role and both teams have an equal opportunity for victory.

Now, it's less the wolves made mistakes, and more the people who were wolves just suck and shouldn't get the role. It's a little harsh to call people playing a game shitty to make your point. Little disappointed you are, to be honest.

 

[Smacktard]

I'd rather a game be balanced around anyone can get any role and both teams have an equal opportunity for victory.

You might prefer games of chance, then.

It's a little harsh to call people playing a game shitty to make your point. Little disappointed you are, to be honest.

I'm sorry you feel that way. The post-game analysis is a large part of the game. I feel like we've given you lots of feedback this thread on what you could've done better, but you're choosing to ignore it. Instead, you should learn from your mistakes, grow, become a better player.

TD went off on me in the private chat while in jail for playing badly, and while it bothered me for a bit, I realized that he was right: he highlighted my weakness as a player. Now I have to think how to fix that.

If you don't at least acknowledge your mistakes, you can't learn from your mistakes. If you can't learn from your mistakes, you don't become a better player.

 

[finlandguy]

I agree wholeheartedly. But that was all the result of making a single mistake of not dogpiling Tommy. You remember the chats. Every one was "well we could do this, but X, Y, Z need to happen and we need to dodge 3 blocks and a rez." That's not a conducive environment that's balanced, I'd say.

But, you're 100% right. We were terrible after night 2.

I think if we rephrase the statement from "we lost the game due to one mistake" into "we didn't win the game due to one mistake" everything would sounded fairer coming from everyone. We definitely didn't lose yet, but it wasn't that mistake that lost it for us. We lost it because of that, and not having a contingency plan after, or proper role claims for me, you or Cole on day 2. One or two of us could do it, but half of us was too much. That was all of our faults for not planning better. I would say those three mistakes back to back lost us the game. At least that's how I see it.

I see Kelly has a list of "mistakes" but those are just things we could've done instead of what we did. Okay, some are valid mistakes, but we're all 20/20 here now.

In this game they COULDN'T though. The town COULDN'T make 4 mistakes. They couldn't even make 3 mistakes. Trying to shepherd 10 people around with no way to trust each other and no proof of identities is much harder than working together as a group of 6 whose identities are known.

You (town) did a few though. Pushing too hard for claims that have us info about who was getting protected one way or the other. Not considering zerker as a random wolf. Not lynching day 1. The Vashicide. Missing protection/rez on Dean to save a protection. Not all of them are as bad as ours, but the town didn't play perfectly either. Clearly less mistakes and I do give it to you that after night 2 you couldn't afford any big mistakes anymore.

If we didn't get a double kill ourselves it would've been just 9-6. Raine did also disclose that she was planning on jailing 2 wolves. Maybe Vash then killed himself afterwards and we got a double kill onto someone else through TD or Tubby. This is all hyperbole, but clearly night 2 skewed the game in a weird direction. We did lose because of overconfidence and a bad play. But I'm very much in line with Cole's opinion that the game is still very against the wolves primarily thanks to the group of people and their personalities. We're an outlier as a whole.

 

[finlandguy]

I just went back through the DMs for that night. no one brought up TDs post, and no one mentioned it before I said "use berserk kill TD that's my vote", another wolf after I said that quoted it and agreed, and said "his sus list was all evil people" after that the vote started and all any one said was the vote

To me it was obvious that TD was getting jailed. Hence why I clarified from Zell if the warden dies if a jailed person is attacked. But I did assume everyone agreed that was happening. Me nor anyone else explicitly said let's kill TD in jail with zerker.

 

[Jon]

I feel like we've given you lots of feedback this thread on what you could've done better, but you're choosing to ignore it. Instead, you should learn from your mistakes, grow, become a better player.

I'm not sure where I have indicated to you I am ignoring anything you're saying. I simply do not agree with some of what you're saying.

I really do not think it is fair for you to pass judgment on how I played and tell me that I am not ever going to improve unless I listen to your suggestions.

What **I** do to get better, at everything in life, is hear WHY people feel things went wrong. In this case, what they feel outed me as a wolf. What choices could have gone differently. And i analyze how those impacted my choices and what went wrong within the scenarios and adjust moving forward. What isn't helpful is saying to anyone "You did X Y Z wrong. You're bad. Do as I say and you'll get better." Which is precisely what your doing. You aren't analyzing anything. You're telling us why we sucked and how you would have done it to make it work using hindsight.

If playing better means being a complete asshole in these games, then I will choose to suck and have fun 10 out of 10 times.

 

[Smacktard]

If playing better means being a complete asshole in these games, then I will choose to suck and have fun 10 out of 10 times

No, playing better means you pretend to not be a wolf when you are a wolf. With the exception of Kat, you guys didn't pretend to not be wolves, and it just got more obvious as Day 2 went on.

You're telling us why we sucked and how you would have done it to make it work using hindsight.

Trying to turn the town against one of your own (Local) isn't even hindsight. Trying to blend in with the town isn't hindsight. You guys acted like wolves, so people thought you were wolves.

If you stack the game any more in favor of the wolves, it becomes a complete wipeout every single time and the game stops being fun, just like what happens when the game is stacked in favor of the town.

I felt the last game was more fair, but this game overcorrected. I know you might not like me pointing out the different ways that the wolves could've won, but I'm arguing against the game being tilted any more in favor of the wolves because some people say they don't want to lie (except they do lie anyway, just about something that doesn't help them win).

Ironically, you guys are saying you lost because you aren't good at lying. I say you lost because you didn't tell the truth: selling Local out as a wolf.

 

[Local Hero]

With the exception of Kat, you guys didn't pretend to not be wolves

Disagree

 

[Local Hero]

Ironically, you guys are saying you lost because you aren't good at lying. I say you lost because you didn't tell the truth: selling Local out as a wolf.

Day 2. I should have pressed harder on this in wolf chat, but I did suggest it.

 

[Smacktard]

View attachment 3707
Day 2. I should have pressed harder on this in wolf chat, but I did suggest it.

TD was most vocally suspicious of you, then he ends up dead. Sell you down the river and the town buys it IMO. I probably would've bit.

 

[Smacktard]

Hell, I doubted Tommy at first because of how quickly he responded to Zell's new info with such a detailed post

 

[Dean]

Hell, I doubted Tommy at first because of how quickly he responded to Zell's new info with such a detailed post

This and Tommy seemingly getting more mad every time he defended himself was cracking me up

 

[Raine]

You think the town shouldn't be able to make a single mistake? Seems a little bit unfair.

In the interests of fairness, that was very much the situation in the first 6(?) games for the wolves. The wolves could win, in theory, if they did a full blitz strategy with copious amounts of effective lying and steering on top of 1) not a single one of them dying, 2) the Random Killer getting at least one non-wolf kill off and 3) the wolves not having their kill blocked.

A singular error (tuned to a game we as a community don't play) resulted in wolf loss 100% of the time. Hence...

Hell, I lost the last game as a wolf and it felt way more fair and balanced than this game.

This game, with the Illusionist and Blind Wolf, was the long needed rebalancing/retooling. Both the town and the wolves made a list of mistakes, meaning they both had breathing room - and I think everyone generally agreed it was balanced.

This game was a step back from that for the reasons outlined previously. Also, very important that "7v6 " was not the balance of this game. The balance was 11-5-0-0, and things just happened to shift to 7-6-0-0 after a couple of turns. It could've shifted in other ways, too, that are more town- or wolf-heavy. That's where the focus needs to be with regards to balance, that "if I rerun this game can I expect a 60%/40% town/wolf win ratio" (or whatever Zell wants those percentages to be).

 

[Smacktard]

In the interests of fairness, that was very much the situation in the first 6(?) games for the wolves. The wolves could win, in theory, if they did a full blitz strategy with copious amounts of effective lying and steering on top of 1) not a single one of them dying, 2) the Random Killer getting at least one non-wolf kill off and 3) the wolves not having their kill blocked.

A singular error (tuned to a game we as a community don't play) resulted in wolf loss 100% of the time. Hence...


This game, with the Illusionist and Blind Wolf, was the long needed rebalancing/retooling. Both the town and the wolves made a list of mistakes, meaning they both had breathing room - and I think everyone generally agreed it was balanced.

This game was a step back from that for the reasons outlined previously. Also, very important that "7v6 " was not the balance of this game. The balance was 11-5-0-0, and things just happened to shift to 7-6-0-0 after a couple of turns. It could've shifted in other ways, too, that are more town- or wolf-heavy. That's where the focus needs to be with regards to balance, that "if I rerun this game can I expect a 60%/40% town/wolf win ratio" (or whatever Zell wants those percentages to be).

I think this is fair, to say that the composition of the game itself meant that it was more stacked against the wolves. I don't think it's fair to say that the game was stacked because "we lost".

However, there was very much the real possibility of a wolf win night 1 here: if I had killed attempted to kill TD in jail and died, the game would've been over by daybreak. If we had lynched a villager Day 1 and Night 1 plays out the same, that's game over. Is that fair? I don't feel like it is, personally.

 

[Cole]

I think this is fair, to say that the composition of the game itself meant that it was more stacked against the wolves. I don't think it's fair to say that the game was stacked because "we lost".

However, there was very much the real possibility of a wolf win night 1 here: if I had killed attempted to kill TD in jail and died, the game would've been over by daybreak. If we had lynched a villager Day 1 and Night 1 plays out the same, that's game over. Is that fair? I don't feel like it is, personally.

when it's as a result of your own fuck ups, yes it is. you're being incredibly short sighted because you want credit for winning.

you're so eager to talk about how bad every one else is and how many mistakes they made. "I would've won if I was wolf", but you weren't, and you haven't won as wolf. and you almost lost becsuse of YOUR OWN mistakes.

"I failed my test because I didn't study, why did you make the test so hard?" that's literally what you're saying.

 

[A Maybe Baker]

I think this is part of the same mistake, but I've already said it in here:

It was a mistake, after choosing me as the evil target, to not go after me more. It seemed like you all were relying on Cole to make the argument and standing back, then got swayed to vote for Tommy somehow.

I also think it was a mistake to pick me after I saw the logs and noticed that I wasn't actually seered that night. There was no telling what my role was by that point, and it was just lucky that I had one that couldn't take any actions.


I'm not going to argue about stacked in favor vs. not here, but this game was well within reach on that second day where aggression was the right play, but it seemed like it wasn't aligned aggression and that most of the play was coming from a perspective of "we have so many ways it could go right for us today that we shouldn't worry about any single one" and it turned into not being a fully united front on the side of the wolves.

 

[A Maybe Baker]

I guess my argument isn't "a single mistake" or even a "series of mistakes" there made the wolves lose, but rather that it was lack of proper capitalization on the mistakes of the town that let victory crawl away.

 

[Zell 17]

Here's a thing to think about. Zell has said (don't quote me) that the town can make 4 mistakes and still win.

What mistakes did town make?
Mistake 1 - Broadcasting TD's plan to be jailed, allowing double kill, mistake 1
Mistake 2 - Vash killing himself

Any others?

What mistakes did the wolves make?
Mistake 1 - using confusion and turning Cole (RNG, not really a mistake)
Mistake 2 - not voting for Tommy day 2 (3 minutes to make a decision, didn't know if tubby would switch back. Instant loss if he did)

Any others?

How many mistakes are the wolves allowed and win? Do they have to play perfectly? The town can make several massive mistakes and still win. It feels like any mistake a wolf makes results in a loss.

The town made few mistakes. The wolves are allowed to make mistakes, but for each mistake they have they need to town to have an additional mistake and sometimes they don’t happen. But mistakes as I see them:

Town:
No lynch day 1
Vash suicides + marksman 2nd shot unused
Warden kill unused

That’s a pretty clean game for the town!

Wolves:
Hit the ww fan night 1 (Bad luck)
Jon didn’t have any claim
Jawneh didn’t have any claim
Cole didn’t have any claim

Yes, each no claim is a SEPARATE mistake, because each one allows the town an absolutely free kill without thought.

Certain roles can allow each team a different number of “mistakes”. The GWW and Alpha wolf let the wolves make more mistakes. Killing roles like the witch let the village make more mistakes. But yeah, generally the wolves have to have a couple fewer overall mistakes than the town to win.

 

[Tommy Boy]

This and Tommy seemingly getting more mad every time he defended himself was cracking me up

Dude I was like WTF is he getting at? He's mad at me for RESPONDING too QUICKLY!?!?!!?!!?! I was over here like

 

[Smacktard]

Dude I was like WTF is he getting at? He's mad at me for RESPONDING too QUICKLY!?!?!!?!!?! I was over here like

It was impressive man, superhuman even

THREE MINUTES AFTER ZELL POSTED YOU DRAFTED THAT

WHAT

 

[Raine]

I think this is fair, to say that the composition of the game itself meant that it was more stacked against the wolves. I don't think it's fair to say that the game was stacked because "we lost".

Yeah, I'll never come at it from the perspective of the latter. My whole shtick is that I'm a tinkerer; I like to build things, break them, analyze them, study them. Figure out how and why they work, the different ways their mechanisms can fail. I'm not saying I'm right in my conclusions, just that there's a distinct reasoning for the topics I bring up.

Like, the Marksman I think is a good candidate for why these games always need all four factions present. If Vash Uncle Derp fires Night 1 in a game with the two Solos, then the job doesn't function as a Word of God Seer. It's not "Dean is 100% clear of all suspicions, protect and rally behind him for guaranteed win if Berserk isn't available" (didn't happen this game, but has happened before), it's "Uncle Derp is dead and Dean isn't a wolf, but might be SV or SK."

I don't necessarily think we can have the same roles for different games composed of 2, 3 and 4 teams. Some things, at least, should change.

The Blind Wolf, since we've debated that before - that job is literally your Day 1 strategy, exclusively in the hands of the wolves, when there's only two teams.

If we had lynched a villager Day 1 and Night 1 plays out the same, that's game over. Is that fair? I don't feel like it is, personally.

I would agree with Cole here, that if it's the village's fault then that's pretty fair. It's a bit of a different argument all together whether or not it's good that the game ended in 1 day and 2 nights because the town bloodied themselves too severely.

But yeah, also - winning or losing to pure randomness sucks too. So there are more considerations at work/in play.

 

[finlandguy]

BTW, just as an off note for the next game I play, and I will remind everyone in the signup thread and in the first post I make in the game, that I will by lying in every single post I make other than if I only vote and/or skip. Regardless of my affiliation. Kelly watered kut day 1 again? No, it was Tubby. Didn't you say you were the Flower Girl? No, I'm the illusionist. If you all just vote and accuse Tommy of being evil you'd win! Yeah, you say that, but Tommy's a better liar than your average City PD officer and will drive you down to state pen personally if you slander him like that.

... and I'll try to make things happen somehow. No truths allowed.

 

[Local Hero]

BTW, just as an off note for the next game I play, and I will remind everyone in the signup thread and in the first post I make in the game, that I will by lying in every single post I make other than if I only vote and/or skip. Regardless of my affiliation. Kelly watered kut day 1 again? No, it was Tubby. Didn't you say you were the Flower Girl? No, I'm the illusionist. If you all just vote and accuse Tommy of being evil you'd win! Yeah, you say that, but Tommy's a better liar than your average City PD officer and will drive you down to state pen personally if you slander him like that.

... and I'll try to make things happen somehow. No truths allowed.

 

[shortkut]

You should claim your name is Cole when you play

 

[finlandguy]

My alt account is Al.

 

[A Maybe Baker]

My alt account is Al.

 

[finlandguy]

It's not theft if it's me.

 

[Kat]

I just went back through the DMs for that night. no one brought up TDs post, and no one mentioned it before I said "use berserk kill TD that's my vote", another wolf after I said that quoted it and agreed, and said "his sus list was all evil people" after that the vote started and all any one said was the vote.

You insisted we kill TD because he asked to be jailed with you. I really didn't want to kill him because of the whole targeting thing, but that was a good reason to go after him when we had berserk. And I think it was a good move, even if it sucked for him (sorry TD!!!).

Now, it's less the wolves made mistakes, and more the people who were wolves just suck and shouldn't get the role. It's a little harsh to call people playing a game shitty to make your point. Little disappointed you are, to be honest

It doesn't feel good but it's kinda true. We totally fucked up.

TD was most vocally suspicious of you, then he ends up dead. Sell you down the river and the town buys it IMO. I probably would've bit.

I agree, this would've been a good play.

It was a mistake, after choosing me as the evil target, to not go after me more. It seemed like you all were relying on Cole to make the argument and standing back, then got swayed to vote for Tommy somehow.

I tried multiple times! Nobody at all was going for it. Maybe if the other wolves had pushed it, they would've? I feel like everyone just weirdly trusted you though.

I agree you were a risky choice when your role was unknown. I'm surprised Raposa didn't go after Kut instead, since people were suspicious of him and his role was known to not be able to prove itself.

Like, the Marksman I think is a good candidate for why these games always need all four factions present.

I agree. The SK is a wildcard that often works against the wolves, but it does inject more doubt into things, which makes the game more fun overall.

Who would be interested in playing a game with fewer roles? Like maybe a doctor, a seer, a priest, a shaman wolf, and a solo killer. Everybody else has a role with no powers they can role play or hint at if they want (like the farmer).

 

[Dean]

So, now the game is only balanced when a certain subset of people are playing a certain subset of roles? That feels like a weak argument to me.

I'd rather a game be balanced around anyone can get any role and both teams have an equal opportunity for victory.

Now, it's less the wolves made mistakes, and more the people who were wolves just suck and shouldn't get the role. It's a little harsh to call people playing a game shitty to make your point. Little disappointed you are, to be honest.

People can talk smack, but until they're a wolf and dealing with that side of it... I will say, Kelly would probably be one of the few who could pull it off, as he's very convincing and good at lying. But for most people who just talk trash, they don't get it. It's way harder to be a wolf IMO.

 

[Kat]

People can talk smack, but until they're a wolf and dealing with that side of it... I will say, Kelly would probably be one of the few who could pull it off, as he's very convincing and good at lying. But for most people who just talk trash, they don't get it. It's way harder to be a wolf IMO.

It's so hard to be organized. Circumstances shift so quickly that it's impossible to make a plan during the night, people aren't on at the same time, and it's hard to follow the wolf chat and scheme and keep up with the town all at once when people are active.

I'd like to try playing a SK role, even though that seems stressful in its own way.

 

[Cole]

You insisted we kill TD because he asked to be jailed with you. I really didn't want to kill him because of the whole targeting thing, but that was a good reason to go after him when we had berserk. And I think it was a good move, even if it sucked for him (sorry TD!!!).

what? I did no such thing, find me the pm. I suggested TD because I thought he was the most likely to be protected. I didn't even think *I* would be jailed.

 

[Cole]

what? I did no such thing, find me the pm. I suggested TD because I thought he was the most likely to be protected. I didn't even think *I* would be jailed.

 

[Raine]

People can talk smack, but until they're a wolf and dealing with that side of it... I will say, Kelly would probably be one of the few who could pull it off, as he's very convincing and good at lying. But for most people who just talk trash, they don't get it. It's way harder to be a wolf IMO.

Correct. Hindsight is a motherfucker, and when you're deep in the muck it is incredibly hard to keep track of, much less cohesively plan several moves in advance.

We as a community have been fairly quick to call out misplays, but at best have been struggling to highlight and give praise where necessary. It's not good for the longevity of people's desire to keep playing, especially not in a format that's still trying to find its legs. I'm not saying we shouldn't discuss mistakes or highlight errors or whatever, just... we need to try to consistently word them better. A couple of things said in the living threads started to chafe me, and I was dead so it wasn't even aimed in my direction.

 

[shortkut]

A couple of things said in the living threads started to chafe me, and I was dead so it wasn't even aimed in my direction.

If I said any of them, I’m sorry

 

[Raine]

If I said any of them, I’m sorry

How dare you live past Night 0 and not call anyone a dumdum even once, you filthy heathen.

 

[shortkut]

How dare you live past Night 0 and not call anyone a dumdum even once, you filthy heathen.

How I feel right now

 

[Kat]

what? I did no such thing, find me the pm. I suggested TD because I thought he was the most likely to be protected. I didn't even think *I* would be jailed.

I swear you did but the chat is 11 pages and I can't be fucked to find it. He was protected and it was good to take out the warden so whatever.

 

[finlandguy]

I swear you did but the chat is 11 pages and I can't be fucked to find it. He was protected and it was good to take out the warden so whatever.

He's right. I assumed everyone knew TD was getting jailed, I asked Zell if there was going to be a double kill, and Local said something related to jailing. Cole only said he's most likely protected, but not specifically jailed.

But this guy tho:

https://gyazo.com/f7f67c36884aa4755dc696097eb9f59c

 

[Local Hero]

He's right. I assumed everyone knew TD was getting jailed, I asked Zell if there was going to be a double kill, and Local said something related to jailing. Cole only said he's most likely protected, but not specifically jailed.

But this guy tho:

https://gyazo.com/f7f67c36884aa4755dc696097eb9f59c

I forgot all about that lol

 

[Raine]

I would just like to say once again that I was asleep before any of that happened.

TD and Kelly were getting jailed as early as 3:30pm, Benzine and Jawneh were getting thrown in the brig if the town (well, wolves) managed to switch from Local and kill TD instead. Not sure what I would've done if I had actually seen the comments. If I was paying enough attention to see TD claim Tough Guy though, I wouldn't have nabbed him.


Also, @Zell 17, for future reference: Does Berserker nullify things like Tough Guy's ability? Is it the Warden that did that? A combination of the two?

 

[Zell 17]

I would just like to say once again that I was asleep before any of that happened.

TD and Kelly were getting jailed as early as 3:30pm, Benzine and Jawneh were getting thrown in the brig if the town (well, wolves) managed to switch from Local and kill TD instead. Not sure what I would've done if I had actually seen the comments. If I was paying enough attention to see TD claim Tough Guy though, I wouldn't have nabbed him.


Also, @Zell 17, for future reference: Does Berserker nullify things like Tough Guy's ability? Is it the Warden that did that? A combination of the two?

Berserk insta kills whatever role it targets (aside from solo killers). So the warden protecting it isn’t why the TG died

 

[Kat]

He's right. I assumed everyone knew TD was getting jailed, I asked Zell if there was going to be a double kill, and Local said something related to jailing. Cole only said he's most likely protected, but not specifically jailed.

But this guy tho:

https://gyazo.com/f7f67c36884aa4755dc696097eb9f59c

Ohh yeah, that's the post I was thinking of. I don't know why I thought it was by Cole, that makes more sense.

I would just like to say once again that I was asleep before any of that happened.

Funny how often things work out coincidentally, right?

Was TD really claiming tough guy? Obviously that really was his role. What did he say to imply it though?

 

[Local Hero]

What did he say to imply it though?

Bossing me around

 

[Raine]

Funny how often things work out coincidentally, right?

Indeed. For as blatantly obvious as I've been the last two games, y'all could've just as easily said "whatever Raine has she's definitely targeting TD tonight" and still been right!

Was TD really claiming tough guy? Obviously that really was his role. What did he say to imply it though?

He wasn't originally, up through 7pm ET. People in the thread convinced themselves he had claimed it, but I didn't see any of his usual playful ways of hinting/claiming in the posts I saw. And he only has 50 posts, so "actually" checking right now I still don't see anything in those posts. He didn't claim until 10pm, which was ~3 hours after I mostly dipped and just about the time I shut everything down.

He said:

I'm saying I would be completely okay with a wolf attack being redirected to me.

Why would that be?

Followed by:

I'm saying that if a flagger truly exists and you "want me dead", redirect the wolf kill to me as opposed to lynching.

...Which reduces the possibilities very severely. Either he's a wolf at that point, or he's capable of stopping himself from being killed. Which would only be Witch or Tough Guy from the guaranteed roles. He was functionally bluffing/goading the wolves, and I probably would've done the Benzine + Jawneh backup to watch and see. He said this at 10:59 PM (so 1 minute before end of day, meaning the Warden would have to see/read it immediately and shoot off a PM to Zell within ~60 seconds):

Hell - if the warden locks me up with him I'll do it myself.

...He wanted the wolves to attack him so he could bow out (because of his mom's surgery on Wednesday) and take one of y'all with him. A little bit of hindsight helping with that conclusion, but, yeah.