Zell Wolf Zell Wolf Rebirth (Just kidding, you're dead)

[VashTheStampede]

It also sucks that the townies who are normally good at finding wolves (TD, Cole, etc.) tend to be killed early by the wolves, so they aren't a threat later.

Yeah, this shit suuuuuucks

 

[finlandguy]

It was the way he was forcing the issue. In my opinion, it directly lead to the double berserker kill

That's what we were pointing out too to besmirch Kelly. But the zerker kill was mainly to kill the warden, but also we saw that TD was very heavily on our tail, as you can see early in this thread from his post.

 

[Benzine]

Next?

 

[Zell 17]

This. I don't like this. It tilts the game towards reputation and takes the fun detective part of the game out of it. It's a brute force method that makes fairness difficult.

In the mafia game between the tells and the hints, made having to identify people the fun part of the game. Where only really the person on the stand can go role claim mode.

Here, with Kelly pulling a Leeroy Jenkins thing from the get, it made it really hard to stay hidden. and I know that's the point... but man, to say the wolves weren't disadvantaged from THAT would be a lit. The rest was random roles and the unlucky snag of Cole on night 0.

It's the same game, only in this version the evils and town are not limited in any way in what they are allowed to say.

If you were town, on Day 2 you needed to figure out who the 6 wolves were among these people. And you had to get them ALL right, with no seer information to help you.

Aura Seer claim 1
Aura Seer claim 2
Random role Seer Apprentice (Unprovable)
Random role Librarian (Unproven, nobody muted)
Random role Sheriff (Unprovable)
Random role Doctor (Unprovable)
Random role Bodyguard (Unprovable, but only save claim on Day 1)
Random role Flagger (Unprovable)
Guaranteed Witch
Guaranteed role unclaimed
Unclaimed
Unclaimed

And the town nailed six out of six from that group on DAY 2. How? Well, the evils weren't very good liars.

Something I've noticed and maybe it will affect future games. When a wolf is targeted by the village as evil, they put up a defense for a bit but then kinda go "Well, I guess you got me". When a townie gets targeted by the village (like Tommy Boy was), they fight nonstop. Tommy was writing essays about how the town was being dumb and about how he couldn't possibly be evil. The one exception was Jawneh a couple games ago who was perfectly happy to be lynched as a marksman.

Cole says the only way the game can be balanced is if there is a Fool and if there is a villager role that shows evil. Why? Every game there's been a Fool, they have been killed Day / Night 1 because they haven't been able to hide it. People bemoan the seers, but seer information isn't why the evils lost this game. TD and Dean both independently named every single wolf on Day 1! Behavior is why they lost.

 

[Jon]

It also sucks that the townies who are normally good at finding wolves (TD, Cole, etc.) tend to be killed early by the wolves, so they aren't a threat later.

I want to reiterate that we did not target TD for this reason. Kelly led us directly to the conclusion that TD was one of the most likely to be protected when we zerkered. It was merely an attempt to get a 2 for 1.

 

[shortkut]

We had to guess multiple protections. And his revive is permanent. Even had we got him, the revive supersedes his death. That was kinda what screwed us. The fact it doens't fizzle on his death.

I watched him at least 1 day prior to reviving because that is when I thought you would get him

 

[finlandguy]

1. Kat role claiming after they turned the fan. Could have let us think there was just no kill
2. Piling on Tommy not Alu, when the fake deer called him evil
3. Not killing benzine before he could revive anyone

1) I basically took this from Kat as playing into part of the meta of Zell's games of needing to claim a role for most of us and this was an easy one until checked by seer or other direct evidence against.
2) None listened to us after Alu said no. Pushing the same person didn't work for us on day 1 for TD either.
3) The revive persist after he dies. We weren't sure who he was until there was already Dean and few others that were basically 100% town.

 

[Jon]

I watched him at least 1 day prior to reviving because that is when I thought you would get him

Personally, I wasn't worried about you. Because most of the time, you'd get info you already had as a group. The only way dodging you helped was to keep you as a viable target for lynching. But you and Alu got no heat because we just couldn't get anything to stick.

Yet, I was silent most of the game and had more heat than anyone else. My defense post was met with utter disregard. So as Zell said, I kinda gave up at that point.

Kelly's mute of me was utterly pointless because I wasn't going to post anyway, lol. My theory was going to ket the town overanalyze without getting more words to twist. Kelly's mind works in a twisted way I can't follow lol. And people naturally disbelieve everything I say (two games in a row now), so I'm actually out of ideas on how to play roles, lol.

 

[Zell 17]

This. The wolves biggest misplays were

1. Kat role claiming after they turned the fan. Could have let us think there was just no kill
2. Piling on Tommy not Alu, when the fake deer called him evil
3. Not killing benzine before he could revive anyone

I disagree with number 1, she had one of the strongest wolf claims. By the time it came undone the game was already lost. The problem was all of the unclaimed people voted as a block, and all of the proven people (Dean, Benzine since he had no counterclaim) voted in a separate block. That made it easy to pick out who was who solely on behavior.

 

[Dean]

I was surprised that it was as straightforward as we thought. I figured there would be at least ONE curveball. My curveball suspects were shortkut or Tubby lol

But yeah, it really was as easy as Zell said, based on the groups of people voting in blocks...

 

[shortkut]

I disagree with number 1, she had one of the strongest wolf claims. By the time it came undone the game was already lost. The problem was all of the unclaimed people voted as a block, and all of the proven people (Dean, Benzine since he had no counterclaim) voted in a separate block. That made it easy to pick out who was who solely on behavior.

I’m pretty sure I put her in my top 3 sus list on day 1 with local. The way she claimed was almost like half claiming. It seemed like she didn’t know her role. Had Cole or someone else made the claim, I think it would have been stronger

 

[Dean]

But like I said previously, I don't blame the wolves. Until you play the role of a wolf, you don't get it. I wouldn't turn down the challenge of being one again, and who would want to be town every single time? But man, I go in with a wolf role thinking, "I'm going to lose". It is an uphill battle. I welcome the challenge again someday.

 

[finlandguy]

Something I've noticed and maybe it will affect future games. When a wolf is targeted by the village as evil, they put up a defense for a bit but then kinda go "Well, I guess you got me". When a townie gets targeted by the village (like Tommy Boy was), they fight nonstop. Tommy was writing essays about how the town was being dumb and about how he couldn't possibly be evil. The one exception was Jawneh a couple games ago who was perfectly happy to be lynched as a marksman.

I mean yeah. This is me. Just as you're putting it below, now it's a behavioral thing. People remember that. I'm perfectly capable of changing that about myself if needed and everyone will be that much more confused about what I'm doing. And it's fun. Definitely it's more fun at least for me.

Cole says the only way the game can be balanced is if there is a Fool and if there is a villager role that shows evil. Why? Every game there's been a Fool, they have been killed Day / Night 1 because they haven't been able to hide it. People bemoan the seers, but seer information isn't why the evils lost this game. TD and Dean both independently named every single wolf on Day 1! Behavior is why they lost.

At least the way I felt, was that it feels so much worse if you die as a wolf, or one of your pack mates die, than it does when you're town. The life of a wolf usually hold twice the weight of a townie in terms of impact in the game just by existing. It gets very disheartening when you think you're doing good yourself with your role, but you don't get heard or someone else's argument in the game was more convincing, even if it wasn't more logical in some cases.

Although I am curious why I was a contender as a wolf day 1, unless I was left as a pick through process of elimination otherwise. Maybe I need more self-reflection.

 

[Dean]

I mean yeah. This is me. Just as you're putting it below, now it's a behavioral thing. People remember that. I'm perfectly capable of changing that about myself if needed and everyone will be that much more confused about what I'm doing. And it's fun. Definitely it's more fun at least for me.


At least the way I felt, was that it feels so much worse if you die as a wolf, or one of your pack mates die, than it does when you're town. The life of a wolf usually hold twice the weight of a townie in terms of impact in the game just by existing. It gets very disheartening when you think you're doing good yourself with your role, but you don't get heard or someone else's argument in the game was more convincing, even if it wasn't more logical in some cases.

Although I am curious why I was a contender as a wolf day 1, unless I was left as a pick through process of elimination otherwise. Maybe I need more self-reflection.

For me, it was a combination of "process of elimination" and Benzine challenging you and you not really saying much. I get that you aren't super vocal early, but yeah, it came off as sus to me personally.

 

[finlandguy]

Benzine challenging you and you not really saying much

... but this has happened the very least day 1 in every single game with the two of us. And not saying much, it was true when I said that was about what I post. I dont think I've ever gone over 40 posts for a day and tend to stick to less than 30 almost all the time.

It seems you just got lucky about me since your idea of me is factually completely wrong. But hey. If it brings results.

 

[A Maybe Baker]

I disagree with number 1, she had one of the strongest wolf claims. By the time it came undone the game was already lost. The problem was all of the unclaimed people voted as a block, and all of the proven people (Dean, Benzine since he had no counterclaim) voted in a separate block. That made it easy to pick out who was who solely on behavior.

I agree - the Kat claim was good. May have been better to get that out there a bit earlier though, but I can't argue with the move in the slightest.

Behavior after that, plus somehow having the first two wolves we lynch be the sorcerer and fan, is what did her in.

 

[shortkut]

... but this has happened the very least day 1 in every single game with the two of us. And not saying much, it was true when I said that was about what I post. I dont think I've ever gone over 40 posts for a day and tend to stick to less than 30 almost all the time.

It seems you just got lucky about me since your idea of me is factually completely wrong. But hey. If it brings results.

If it makes you feel better, you were the least sus to me

 

[A Maybe Baker]

But like I said previously, I don't blame the wolves. Until you play the role of a wolf, you don't get it. I wouldn't turn down the challenge of being one again, and who would want to be town every single time? But man, I go in with a wolf role thinking, "I'm going to lose". It is an uphill battle. I welcome the challenge again someday.

lmao how do you think I felt in my run of like every game forever

 

[A Maybe Baker]

FYI: @Smacktard was the first to believe me when I said Raposa was the sorcerer trying to frame me, and he did so emphatically. You can ask him what it was that did that, but it was all behavior based.

Related to that: Cole's insistence to me that I needed to include the possibility of "you're a wolf" in my list was what put him directly on my suspect list. I was making a list of "here's the ways I wouldn't be a wolf" and to respond to that with nothing but "yeah but what about if you're a wolf" isn't really compelling to me. Also he was putting words in my mouth by saying I was arguing that we needed to trust Kelly based on the first night read while saying to not trust Raposa based on the second night read also pushed me there: the circumstances changed, and he knew full well that the Sorcerer is supposed to gain trust of the town early and then eventually lie to end it.

 

[Zell 17]

I actually think the wolves played better this time! If you remember the golden rules I posted in previous death threads for evils:

1) At least one wolf claims seer, preferably two, and pushes info (real or fake)
2) ALL wolves have a DAY 1 public claim.
3) Protect the solos until the town is beaten.
4) Prioritize killing bullets before info.

They did number 1 with Raposuh (although Alu astutely noticed that the Sorcerer would almost always fake Aura Seer).
Didn't do number 2.
Number 3 wasn't in play.
They did number 4.

So not bad!

Some things I would have considered:
-Don't use the guardian power to save Raposuh on day 2. You gave the witch an easy target. If Raposuh dies, Dean has all the pressure to make an accurate kill and there's no obvious wolf out there.
-Local having an extra shield and a Unknown aura gave him a golden opportunity to fight for some of the guaranteed roles. Claim Ritualist, you can't be disproven and you force the real Ritualist to perhaps counterclaim you on Day 1 and you can kill them without a revive being cast or perhaps cast on a wolf. Claim witch, and even if the real witch tries to kill you that night, you stay alive and you can say you used your potion on THEM and they are the Alpha Wolf.
-This is risky, but if you felt like you HAD to mislynch on Day 2 you could have pushed hard on Smacktard. Have Jon claim that he was the Warden (since day 1 he said he was a guaranteed role) and that Kelly was lying about being jailed. Say you jailed Cole and Jawneh or something. That would give all three of you reason to immediately vote Smacktard.

 

[Jon]

-This is risky, but if you felt like you HAD to mislynch on Day 2 you could have pushed hard on Smacktard. Have Jon claim that he was the Warden (since day 1 he said he was a guaranteed role) and that Kelly was lying about being jailed. Say you jailed Cole and Jawneh or something. That would give all three of you reason to immediately vote Smacktard.

I thought about doing just this, but the hold up was Benzine. He could talk to TD and Raine and corroborate, and no one challenged his role. Hindsight was that or tough guy were the roles I could have pushed, but with Warden, if the lynch of Kelly failed, I was fucked... unless I then said I jailed another two wolves.

I was hesitant to use the save on Raposuh. I wanted to hold it to give question about what we were doing. Town was pushing hard to burn that save, but in the end I went the team route (which hasn't worked for me twice now lol).

Hindsight I suppose, is 20/20. That would have been a good play.

 

[Cole]

Zell, the fact that the wolves have never won a game of yours should be proof that your format isn't working as intended, but you still refuse to make any substantial changes or hear any substantial criticism, all you reply with is "here's what everyone did wrong!"

as soon as raposa was lynched, the first post in the wolf pm was "let's just resign or skip through all of this and let them win".

it literally doesn't matter what you *think* people need to do when they're simply not capable of it.

I fought tooth and nail after I was named evil. but the wolves had already conceded the game, so I was literally out there by myself.

I'm glad people like your game, but just about no one ever wants to be a wolf because it's a guaranteed loss, when "being a wolf" is always what people wanted to be drawn as. it's completely killing the fun for me (as both town OR wolf), and whatever excuse you give as to why it happened THIS time is irrelevant when it happens *every time*.

within the first two days of almost every single game you've had, the town has had a list of wolves to lynch, and because of the way you've set up the rules, there's nothing anyone can do about it once one "reliable" person has the list nailed down.

people can call me a sour sport, that's fine, I was having fun up until the point the wolves gave up, but I don't blame them. because every game goes exactly the same way, and you simply refuse to make any substantial changes to the format.

I'm not gonna keep going back and forth with this, because at this point it's just fucking groundhog day. I like you, we've been friends for a long time, and this doesn't change that, but you are completely unwilling to admit there's a fault in your format, and it just ruins any semblance of fun I can have in the game. even as a townie, with the tiniest bit of information and help, I know I'm gonna have a list of wolves within a day or two, and that's equally as boring as playing wolf and dying immediately.

I have no hard feelings for anyone playing. I battled with Kelly and Tommy and Alu and I love trying to talk my way out of danger, but it's never going to happen in this game. the wolves aren't going to win until the format is heavily modified. but you still keep refusing.

"this format has the wolves winning 60% of the time according yo my stats", that's what you said after the first 3 or 4 games.

how's that math working out now?

 

[A Maybe Baker]

They did number 1 with Raposuh (although Alu astutely noticed that the Sorcerer would almost always fake Aura Seer).

Yeah I tried to emphasize that as often as possible. Knowing there's a sorcerer in play means you have to be weary of anyone claiming Aura Seer. That may have actually helped my case on the second day - I was vocal about warning for that, and then the very next day had one of the two claimed seers come at me saying I was evil. It was a pretty easy "see, this is what I said we'd need to watch out for" moment for me there. Why I think shortkut may have been a better target than me for the fake aura claim.

Although that could have also been a wolf strategy.

 

[Dean]

Some things I would have considered:
-Don't use the guardian power to save Raposuh on day 2. You gave the witch an easy target. If Raposuh dies, Dean has all the pressure to make an accurate kill and there's no obvious wolf out there.

I have no hard feelings for anyone playing. I battled with Kelly and Tommy and Alu and I love trying to talk my way out of danger, but it's never going to happen in this game. the wolves aren't going to win until the format is heavily modified. but you still keep refusing.

I was going to target Cole if Raposuh were lynched. Cole wouldn't engage with me at all, which made me very leery. Usually he would at least call me stupid.

 

[VashTheStampede]

He usually just inquires as to my length of tenure

 

[Cole]

I was going to target Cole if Raposuh were lynched. Cole wouldn't engage with me at all, which made me very leery. Usually he would at least call me stupid.

as I was just explaining to shortkut, no one in this game makes any sense.

constantly in every game its "Cole would never do that" "but doing the thing that Cole wouldnt do is exactly what Cole would do". Or "Cole is acting different", except people say that when I'm a townie too.

I had covid, I joined because I had nothing to do for like 3 days, I wasnt reading every post, I was skimming half of it, and I wasnt going to post big analysis posts because A: lack of energy, B: lack of brain function and C: because doing that just makes me suspicious anyway.

I don't think I saw anything from you that was worthy of a response at any given point. I didn't "respond" directly to half the people in the game. Usually shortkut and I go at it every single game whether we're on the same team or not, and I think I made 2 posts directed at him.

my posting style doesn't change unless I want it to change, and its gonna change no matter what role I am. The game I was "most different" was that game I was Gunner for the town and made a play that worked differently. People suspected me then too.

My pattern and style is going to change in every game I'm in, because doing the same thing every time is incredibly boring.

I even had a fun plan for my fan game this time, but then they accidentally turned me on night 0.

obviously the whole "not checking my role thing" was a lie, but its absolutely something I would do.

 

[A Maybe Baker]

obviously the whole "not checking my role thing" was a lie, but its absolutely something I would do.

I agree.

I also agree that from your perspective (even as a townie) you'd try to dig in deeper on me as to the evil read. Which is what you did.

I don't know why other people didn't, though.

 

[VashTheStampede]

Cole you should run a game

 

[finlandguy]

as soon as raposa was lynched, the first post in the wolf pm was "let's just resign or skip through all of this and let them win".

I personally wasn't ready to give up until the last day, as we could've just played the game long avoiding protections until alpha. But I also did not do much in terms of helping our cause as I was, and have usually been, on the side lines doing partially my own thing and definitely not working with people even if I should be. I get where you're coming from and do agree. And I can't even blame our partners in crime about it as we had a very big high going on and our gambit at the time didn't pay out in the end.

within the first two days of almost every single game you've had, the town has had a list of wolves to lynch, and because of the way you've set up the rules, there's nothing anyone can do about it once one "reliable" person has the list nailed down.

Agreed. Counter argument would be that just kill those off and hide in the other folks. I think we can see in the action logs that those folks are being protected so that doesn't necessarily work either. But I also don't see a way to fix this necessarily. We only got so many folks who can and want to try to feign being that "reliable" person. Your suggestion of fool and evil villager would help against those people emerging as easily, but it can still happen. I do feel for Zell as we're not all come to terms with role claims and lying properly yet, but also at the same time maybe I don't even want to try to play like that just to up my win chances.

people can call me a sour sport, that's fine, I was having fun up until the point the wolves gave up, but I don't blame them. because every game goes exactly the same way, and you simply refuse to make any substantial changes to the format.

Naw, you're just a blunt direct dude who sounds grumpy even when talking about puppies and kittens. And we need and want one of those guys. If you weren't saying these things probably none else would and we'd gain no headway fast. Er... Or whatever speed we're moving.

 

[Dean]

as I was just explaining to shortkut, no one in this game makes any sense.

constantly in every game its "Cole would never do that" "but doing the thing that Cole wouldnt do is exactly what Cole would do". Or "Cole is acting different", except people say that when I'm a townie too.

I had covid, I joined because I had nothing to do for like 3 days, I wasnt reading every post, I was skimming half of it, and I wasnt going to post big analysis posts because A: lack of energy, B: lack of brain function and C: because doing that just makes me suspicious anyway.

I don't think I saw anything from you that was worthy of a response at any given point. I didn't "respond" directly to half the people in the game. Usually shortkut and I go at it every single game whether we're on the same team or not, and I think I made 2 posts directed at him.

my posting style doesn't change unless I want it to change, and its gonna change no matter what role I am. The game I was "most different" was that game I was Gunner for the town and made a play that worked differently. People suspected me then too.

My pattern and style is going to change in every game I'm in, because doing the same thing every time is incredibly boring.

I even had a fun plan for my fan game this time, but then they accidentally turned me on night 0.

obviously the whole "not checking my role thing" was a lie, but its absolutely something I would do.

You seemed really off this game, but I did take into account you were sick. It just still seemed weird that you were so critical of Kelly's strategy when it was one you've successfully implemented variations of in the past, and I think I called you out by name or made reference to how weird you were acting, and you didn't bother to respond to me. But yeah, maybe I got lucky on a couple of reads (yours and Jawneh's), but I also think there was more to your behavior. The process of elimination definitely helped too.

 

[Zell 17]

Zell, the fact that the wolves have never won a game of yours should be proof that your format isn't working as intended, but you still refuse to make any substantial changes or hear any substantial criticism, all you reply with is "here's what everyone did wrong!"

as soon as raposa was lynched, the first post in the wolf pm was "let's just resign or skip through all of this and let them win".

it literally doesn't matter what you *think* people need to do when they're simply not capable of it.

I fought tooth and nail after I was named evil. but the wolves had already conceded the game, so I was literally out there by myself.

I'm glad people like your game, but just about no one ever wants to be a wolf because it's a guaranteed loss, when "being a wolf" is always what people wanted to be drawn as. it's completely killing the fun for me (as both town OR wolf), and whatever excuse you give as to why it happened THIS time is irrelevant when it happens *every time*.

within the first two days of almost every single game you've had, the town has had a list of wolves to lynch, and because of the way you've set up the rules, there's nothing anyone can do about it once one "reliable" person has the list nailed down.

people can call me a sour sport, that's fine, I was having fun up until the point the wolves gave up, but I don't blame them. because every game goes exactly the same way, and you simply refuse to make any substantial changes to the format.

I'm not gonna keep going back and forth with this, because at this point it's just fucking groundhog day. I like you, we've been friends for a long time, and this doesn't change that, but you are completely unwilling to admit there's a fault in your format, and it just ruins any semblance of fun I can have in the game. even as a townie, with the tiniest bit of information and help, I know I'm gonna have a list of wolves within a couple of games, and that's equally as boring as playing wolf and dying immediately.

I have no hard feelings for anyone playing. I battled with Kelly and Tommy and Alu and I love trying to talk my way out of danger, but it's never going to happen in this game. the wolves aren't going to win until the format is heavily modified. but you still keep refusing.

"this format has the wolves winning 60% of the time according yo my stats", that's what you said after the first 3 or 4 games.

how's that math working out now?

Cole, let me ask you this. How is it a format issue when we've had 4 hosts and wildly different formats but the results are unchanged?

The mafia has never won Vash's game. Despite ostensibly having an built-in advantage with the jail system as well as having drawn what I think was a great team last game. The bad guys lost Tubby's game too. All of Fire Queen's games as well, except for the first when nobody really remembered how anyone played.

By the time you were called evil in this game you had no hope of surviving. No amount of lies was gonna save you. The wolves had bet absolutely everything on getting a mislynch on Day 2, and they were unsuccessful.

I know you haven't been following the games, but there have been substantial changes. The town lost the last game! Read this thread, every single townie thought the game was lost on Day 2. Read wolf chat, you all thought the game was won!

At some point, the very core of this game is you have to lie and get people to believe you to win as evil. On day 2 literally every single player was completely unproven and survived on the strength of their word alone. If the evils are incapable of lying, they'll never win any version of this game no matter what format changes are made.

 

[finlandguy]

Why I think shortkut may have been a better target than me for the fake aura claim.

Although that could have also been a wolf strategy.

I actually think we didn't come with a consensus or even a suggestion on a target and left it in Raposa's hands lol. No blame against him as we didn't help either.

 

[finlandguy]

constantly in every game its "Cole would never do that" "but doing the thing that Cole wouldnt do is exactly what Cole would do". Or "Cole is acting different", except people say that when I'm a townie too.

Okay, this isn't a jive against you or anything, but you in wolf games has grown into a meme status so as annoying as it is for you, it'll keep happening.

 

[Zell 17]

However, I will always humor Cole on getting feedback.

After the last game it was near unanimous that the changes I made to formatting caused the game to be balanced.

Do you still feel that way after this game? Do you feel that the game is balanced, or do you feel that more changes need to be made?

 

[Dean]

I would like to see how this game would've gone with a wildcard/RK thrown in, instead of the werewolf fan.

 

[Local Hero]

I never died.

Did I win?

 

[Cole]

I agree.

I also agree that from your perspective (even as a townie) you'd try to dig in deeper on me as to the evil read. Which is what you did.

I don't know why other people didn't, though.

that was very confusing to me, and this IS me being a little bitter, but it almost felt personal. It almost felt like a case of "we like Alu so we're just going to trust him", because there was NO REASON that literally every other townie in the game completely brushed aside a read on you. Obviously a sorceror tries to gain favor by naming a townie at the beginning, but to not even give a second thought to you being evil was baffling me.

Cole you should run a game

I wish I had the fucking energy.

I personally wasn't ready to give up until the last day, as we could've just played the game long avoiding protections until alpha. But I also did not do much in terms of helping our cause as I was, and have usually been, on the side lines doing partially my own thing and definitely not working with people even if I should be. I get where you're coming from and do agree. And I can't even blame our partners in crime about it as we had a very big high going on and our gambit at the time didn't pay out in the end.


Agreed. Counter argument would be that just kill those off and hide in the other folks. I think we can see in the action logs that those folks are being protected so that doesn't necessarily work either. But I also don't see a way to fix this necessarily. We only got so many folks who can and want to try to feign being that "reliable" person. Your suggestion of fool and evil villager would help against those people emerging as easily, but it can still happen. I do feel for Zell as we're not all come to terms with role claims and lying properly yet, but also at the same time maybe I don't even want to try to play like that just to up my win chances.


Naw, you're just a blunt direct dude who sounds grumpy even when talking about puppies and kittens. And we need and want one of those guys. If you weren't saying these things probably none else would and we'd gain no headway fast. Er... Or whatever speed we're moving.

I appreciate the sentiment, but I'm seldom grumpy, I'm just easily annoyed.

You seemed really off this game, but I did take into account you were sick. It just still seemed weird that you were so critical of Kelly's strategy when it was one you've successfully implemented variations of in the past, and I think I called you out by name or made reference to how weird you were acting, and you didn't bother to respond to me. But yeah, maybe I got lucky on a couple of reads (yours and Jawneh's), but I also think there was more to your behavior. The process of elimination definitely helped too.

I have never implemented a strategy like Kellys nor would I ever. Demanding off the bat people reveal something about their roles is too forced for me. It's not how I'd ever want to play a game as a townie. I've pushed people to reveal their role, but I've also openly asked people to lie to me.

Cole, let me ask you this. How is it a format issue when we've had 4 hosts and wildly different formats but the results are unchanged?

The mafia has never won Vash's game. Despite ostensibly having an built-in advantage with the jail system as well as having drawn what I think was a great team last game. The bad guys lost Tubby's game too. All of Fire Queen's games as well, except for the first when nobody really remembered how anyone played.

By the time you were called evil in this game you had no hope of surviving. No amount of lies was gonna save you. The wolves had bet absolutely everything on getting a mislynch on Day 2, and they were unsuccessful.

I know you haven't been following the games, but there have been substantial changes. The town lost the last game! Read this thread, every single townie thought the game was lost on Day 2. Read wolf chat, you all thought the game was won!

At some point, the very core of this game is you have to lie and get people to believe you to win as evil. On day 2 literally every single player was completely unproven and survived on the strength of their word alone. If the evils are incapable of lying, they'll never win any version of this game no matter what format changes are made.

the results aren't unchanged, Vash has run 2 games, its barely wolf or mafia at this point, and is almost a separate entity.

And the wolves won the very first game on new GW. I know, because I was one of them. And it was the simpler version of wolf, saying that the wolves only won because "no one remembered how anyone played" is simply not true, because most of the players in that game were veterans, and there was ALREADY a "let's watch out for X X and X because they're really good".

both Vash and Tubby have pulled from your game for inspiration, so yes, the format IS still surprisingly similar.

what you're not understanding is that 90% of the players from this forum are "incapable of lying", and it needs to be on the host to balance accordingly. but again, you keep refusing to take any blame for the outcomes of the game, instead just saying "nah this is what you should have done, trust me I know, because I can tell you afterwards what you did wrong". And there really haven't been any substantial changes, as evidenced by the fact that *games keep going the same way*.

But again, I'm not gonna groundhog day this shit with you man. we've had this exact conversation before, at one point you even said "you're right, maybe I do need to change things up" and then the next game you said "I decided not to change anything up to try it one more time".

you don't wanna change anything, great. people wanna keep playing knowing its a guaranteed town win? great. you don't wanna listen to any suggestion, GREAT.

but if you're unwilling to acknowledge that the format IS NOT FUCKING WORKING HERE then I don't know how to help you.

 

[Local Hero]

Never let it be said that this man is not 10,000% dedicated to every bit he does.

Not quite as good as his Fool bit, but still.

Local fully believes every role he gets, I love it. He's the Daniel Day Lewis of wolf/mafia

 

[Cole]

Okay, this isn't a jive against you or anything, but you in wolf games has grown into a meme status so as annoying as it is for you, it'll keep happening.

I get that, and I'm fine with it. but when people keep using it to try and determine what I am they're only hurting themselves. there's a reason I stopped playing, and I was STILL mentioned at least once per game.

I'm not the best player here, I'm just willing to try shit no one else will try.

 

[shortkut]

that was very confusing to me, and this IS me being a little bitter, but it almost felt personal. It almost felt like a case of "we like Alu so we're just going to trust him", because there was NO REASON that literally every other townie in the game completely brushed aside a read on you. Obviously a sorceror tries to gain favor by naming a townie at the beginning, but to not even give a second thought to you being evil was baffling me

For me, it was less you and more raposuh that made me vote him. Tommy just seemed more trustworthy, also, I still suspected Kelly was evil at that time. He said Kelly was good.

 

[Cole]

For me, it was less you and more raposuh that made me vote him. Tommy just seemed more trustworthy, also, I still suspected Kelly was evil at that time. He said Kelly was good.

that's my point. no one but me even acknowledged that raposa could have been clearing another wolf, and instead just went "nah, let's just lynch someone else"

 

[finlandguy]

I'm not the best player here, I'm just willing to try shit no one else will try.

Yeah. This is why it sucks when you don't want to play. Fun first, weird shit second, winning third. Well, not even winning third. It's just the goal. Don't got to work for the first thing to apply.

 

[Zell 17]

what you're not understanding is that 90% of the players from this forum are "incapable of lying", and it needs to be on the host to balance accordingly. but again, you keep refusing to take any blame for the outcomes of the game, instead just saying "nah this is what you should have done, trust me I know, because I can tell you afterwards what you did wrong". And there really haven't been any substantial changes, as evidenced by the fact that *games keep going the same way*.

But again, I'm not gonna groundhog day this shit with you man. we've had this exact conversation before, at one point you even said "you're right, maybe I do need to change things up" and then the next game you said "I decided not to change anything up to try it one more time".

you don't wanna change anything, great. people wanna keep playing knowing its a guaranteed town win? great. you don't wanna listen to any suggestion, GREAT.

but if you're unwilling to acknowledge that the format IS NOT FUCKING WORKING HERE then I don't know how to help you.

I HAVE been trying to make changes. I’ve run games with the shaman and fool as you’ve suggested. The town won. I’ve halved the number of bullets and seers for this game and increased the number of wolves and increased the number of random villagers and the number of useless random villagers. The town won.

What other changes do you suggest? Seriously. What are substantial changes?

 

[Cole]

Yeah. This is why it sucks when you don't want to play. Fun first, weird shit second, winning third. Well, not even winning third. It's just the goal. Don't got to work for the first thing to apply.

I do have fun in these games, and anyone that thinks I don't doesn't know me. I like trying to read you guys, I like trying ballsy strategies to try and sneak a win, there's even a sense of pride when people talk about how dangerous I am, of. course there is.

but most players are gonna do the same thing every game, they're gonna play in the same way because it's easier to win.

winning is part of my goal, sure. but if I can do something awesome I'm happier than I would be just winning. that gunner game I had, I knew full well what the chances were that it would blow up in my face. but I still went for it because it was fun.

I don't care that I lost

I care that it feels like i never could have won

 

[Cole]

I HAVE been trying to make changes. I’ve run games with the shaman and fool as you’ve suggested. The town won. I’ve halved the number of bullets and seers for this game and increased the number of wolves and increased the number of random villagers and the number of useless random villagers. The town won.

What other changes do you suggest? Seriously. What are substantial changes?

the game that you're saying "had a different outcome", is the game that had the fucking fool and the shaman and it was the closest wolves had gotten to winning.

but you still removed it.

adding more wolves doesn't really matter, it just makes it feel more balanced on the surface, but its not any different.

the stuff that needs to be done to add balance you're not going to be willing to do. Before your very first game I said I was apprehensive about a game where every player has a role. that has absolutely still been the biggest downfall. and I still think it can work with everyone having a role, but they need to be chosen carefully for both town and wolves to create the balance that is lacking from peoples inability to convincingly lie. I've told you all of this before.

the fool and shaman are the biggest balance needed for the wolves.

a town based role or two with an evil aura and a powerful ability will give the town even MORE pause to just willy nilly lynch.

there are 247 different potential seers in this game, and thats not even factoring in that there can be more than one. "This game didn't have that many!" I'm aware, but it's still an issue that y our games have run up against.

run a game, 4 wolves, 1 fool, 1 random killer, and CAREFULLY pick exactly what roles will be in the game. and don't make them random. see what happens, start there. if that game still plays out the same way, then you go from there.

but as of right now, the changes that you're making aren't "changes", they are modifications. and you keep removing the things that get the wolves closest to winning.

 

[finlandguy]

run a game, 4 wolves, 1 fool, 1 random killer, and CAREFULLY pick exactly what roles will be in the game. and don't make them random. see what happens, start there. if that game still plays out the same way, then you go from there.

Just to clarify, even if picked, there would still be "x random roles" from the list that aren't guaranteed roles, right?

 

[Cole]

adding on: and you know this first hand.

I was just talking to Vash about the game, and he was saying "players need to adapt"

well here's someone that several people from this thread can attest to.

GWPS, CS 1.6 iServer

PLAYERS DON'T CHANGE.

almost no one in the GWPS ever "got better", the inherent luck of poker had people win that didn't normally win of course, but hardly anyone really "adapted" or improved.

the same was true with iServer. everyone just wanted to have fun, and thats great, but no one "improved" for playing on iServer.

teh same thing is happening here. no ones going to adapt to the format as it exists now. a bunch of 30+ year old internet nerds aren't gonna suddenly become excellent and convincing liars.

it *HAS* to be the host that makes the changes needed to survive.

 

[Cole]

Just to clarify, even if picked, there would still be "x random roles" from the list that aren't guaranteed roles, right?

I wouldn't, no.

I would have a list of guaranteed roles, and that's it. and carefully chosen ones.

 

[Zell 17]

Cole can I ask you maybe what seems like a similar question but a different way?

What was the biggest reason you think you guys lost this particular game? Particularly from a format perspective. From the outside looking in it seemed like the town could have had no seers at all and it would have progressed the same way but I don’t have the same perspective that you do

 

[Local Hero]

I just did a search for my name, haven't read anything really. I do want to share my thoughts.

We got unlucky using confusion and turning Cole night one.

We got a miraculous night two killing 4 townies. (Was it 4 or 3?)

In hindsight, we should have all switched to Tommy day 2 after Tubby did. We only had 3 minutes to communicate and plan, we weren't sure if all were online or if after we all switched with less than a minute to go, that tubby wouldn't switch off, outing every single wolf in the process.

Had we pulled that off, we would have had a flawless victory.

We didn't, and we were pretty much doomed.

----

Additional thoughts, we went from one lynch away to winning on night 2 to essentially guaranteed loss, short of a miracle.

This game is just too stacked towards the town. This is not a criticism towards Zell, or Vash, or anyone else.

Like Tommy and others, I really don't enjoy lying. I think we all have changed our play styles to be much more respectful, but it still sucks. I think this is made worse because the wolves are at such a disadvantage that there's a bit of a desperation to every play. Not sure how to explain it...

For example, (this is not a criticism of Zell or the town) when I was shushed, and Zell directly asked me to vote to skip, even though I couldn't vote for lynching, and I mistakenly responded in the thread instead of PM, everyone was demanding a punishment, even though we were already in such a vulnerable position. And it made me sad

----

I would never be able to manage a game, and I am incredibly impressed every time Zell and Vash run theirs, but if we could figure out a way that makes the game more even, with more zany roles (like with tells, a fool, etc), I think that could go a long way. Maybe also elimination of role claiming too, because it further favors the town.

I know this is just my opinion, and anything can and will get judged by at least someone, and you can't please everyone.

This has been a stream of consciousness while at work, hopefully it made sense.