Ben Wolf Paranormal Post-Mortem

[Jon]

I could be making this up but for some reason I feel like Zell once said he gives the wolves their roles first and let's them choose who to kill, then gives out the rest of the roles so there's no weird role swap like that.

There's also the whole get to 16 players and/or don't have a "dead body".

This is what I did in my last Nexus game too. Corpo got their roles first and had to choose.

The main issue with it is the delay in getting started. Especially if the team is on different continents like in my game.

I'd love to hear a more efficient way of doing it. A "listen just give me a number damnit" doesn't work because any seer roles on the bad team triggers a discussion.

 

[Ants!]

I know this game was short as hell but it was still super rad thanks to Ben's efforts and I look forward to another go, when I am hopefully not sick and super busy.

Plague host got to you after all! Did you and Quagmire sleep together?

 

[Ants!]

I would also hazard against overcorrecting based on the results of one game.

Someone can correct me if I'm wrong, but the town has lost more games than they have won as of late; the town was even at a disadvantage numbers wise. If Local waters the wrong person or an evil isn't lynched Day 1, the outcome of this one becomes much more competitive and the town is at a disadvantage. Most of the evils stuck out like a sore thumb this game.

There was once a time in the early stages where the exact roles that existed were publicized as opposed to how we have it now, but it was changed to saying they're all random to help the evils. The way this game is structured already benefits evils. Role claiming is a valid part of the game, for townies to not claim their roles is detrimental to their own team, and the evils should always have a fake claim ready to go.

I like, agree with maybe 50% of this.

 

[Ants!]

I wouldn't over correct after one game, in fact personally I'm not suggesting any changes. For my own part, I'm just voicing my own opinion on wolf games in general after many games.

Like I said earlier, role claiming is a valid way to play. You're right about that. It's just not the ONLY valid way to play, and playing wolf only one way gets a bit stale after a while. I suggest we not dismiss experimenting with different ways of playing. Role claiming is valid, but it also has its cons and drawbacks and we don't all feel the same way about it.

As for wolves sticking out like a sore thumb, I'd argue that math and luck had a huge role to play there. Kat happened to scry a wolf on night one, and I still maintain that yall latching on to my very early shitposting vote for Local and taking it super seriously was silly because I definitely do the same kind of stuff as a townie. The fact that I happened to be a bad guy this time was coincidental. I'll concede that my REACTION to heat being put on me over it may have given cause for interpretation, I wouldn't know objectively. I would guess it did.

 

[Ants!]

This is what I did in my last Nexus game too. Corpo got their roles first and had to choose.

The main issue with it is the delay in getting started. Especially if the team is on different continents like in my game.

I'd love to hear a more efficient way of doing it. A "listen just give me a number damnit" doesn't work because any seer roles on the bad team triggers a discussion.

I think another possible suggestion is just don't have the wolves make a choice on night 1 at all, since the result is just going to be "dead body" anyway. Or you could give them the choice of not to kill, in case they're worried about certain roles such as the spirit seer.

 

[Ben]

This is what I did in my last Nexus game too. Corpo got their roles first and had to choose.

The main issue with it is the delay in getting started. Especially if the team is on different continents like in my game.

I'd love to hear a more efficient way of doing it. A "listen just give me a number damnit" doesn't work because any seer roles on the bad team triggers a discussion.

I think timing of starting the game is pretty big, honestly. I wondered how likely it was people would see the first night considering I pushed it out at like 3am on a Saturday. I told myself it should give everyone a chance to see their roles and act, but clearly I forcibly Tommy'd some as they didn't night act at all.

I hear all the "don't over correct". I'm prone being critical of myself and wanting to fix everything in one fell swoop, but at the end of the day I had fun making a dumb podcast and it seems everyone else did too.

I'll definitely make a few adjustments for next time, but I won't flatten-and-reinstall.

 

[Ants!]

Maybe say, night one has two phases, a wolf-only phase lasting X hours or until skipped, then a regular night phase?

 

[dimmerwit]

I think timing of starting the game is pretty big, honestly. I wondered how likely it was people would see the first night considering I pushed it out at like 3am on a Saturday. I told myself it should give everyone a chance to see their roles and act, but clearly I forcibly Tommy'd some as they didn't night act at all.

It was 8:30AM for me so I opened it in the morning, said "I'll do it later" and proceeded to forget about it completely.

 

[shortkut]

This is what I did in my last Nexus game too. Corpo got their roles first and had to choose.

The main issue with it is the delay in getting started. Especially if the team is on different continents like in my game.

I'd love to hear a more efficient way of doing it. A "listen just give me a number damnit" doesn't work because any seer roles on the bad team triggers a discussion.

Assign roles to random words. Give evil their words/roles. Evil Seer can still check a word and kill. That victim becomes dead body and then everyone else is spread out around remaining words

 

[Ben]

Maybe say, night one has two phases, a wolf-only phase lasting X hours or until skipped, then a regular night phase?

I mean, narratively, the good guys aren't going to go looking for evil until after someone dies, so it does make sense for the "kill" to come first.

What if...

1. Roles get randomly selected. The ROLES get assigned a word.
2. 3 or however many players get assigned to the wolf roles.
3. Wolves get to pick a word to kill. Whichever role they kill is the dead body and is gone from the pool.
4. The remaining roles get assigned to the non-wolf players randomly.
5. No abilities, wolf or town, are usable during the first night.

I guess that might ultimately be how we think Zell was doing it, maybe with the additional buffer on not using abilities during the first night. I think that might put everyone on a more level footing off the bat, as no one has direct information and the first day would be much more dependent on discussion.

 

[Ben]

Assign roles to random words. Give evil their words/roles. Evil Seer can still check a word and kill. That victim becomes dead body and then everyone else is spread out around remaining words

...What the fuck.

I'd say great minds think alike, but... It's us.

 

[shortkut]

...What the fuck.

I'd say great minds think alike, but... It's us.

Step 1: generate list of random words
Step 2: assign roles to those words
Step 3: wolves/cryptids get assigned
Step 4: they use their abilities and make a selection. They can seer willow and kill quartz
Step 5: assign dead body to the word that is killed
Step 6: randomize the remaining players with the remaining words

This allows all evil abilities to be used without worrying about the dead body or anyone getting their role switched

 

[Ants!]

I mean, narratively, the good guys aren't going to go looking for evil until after someone dies, so it does make sense for the "kill" to come first.

What if...

1. Roles get randomly selected. The ROLES get assigned a word.
2. 3 or however many players get assigned to the wolf roles.
3. Wolves get to pick a word to kill. Whichever role they kill is the dead body and is gone from the pool.
4. The remaining roles get assigned to the non-wolf players randomly.
5. No abilities, wolf or town, are usable during the first night.

I guess that might ultimately be how we think Zell was doing it, maybe with the additional buffer on not using abilities during the first night. I think that might put everyone on a more level footing off the bat, as no one has direct information and the first day would be much more dependent on discussion.

That sounds perfect except that I would say number five would render the first night phase pretty pointless. Might as well start with day one and say there's a random dead body with no role. Way easier and would start sooner. Unless there's a reason behind it that I'm not catching?

 

[Ben]

Step 1: generate list of random words
Step 2: assign roles to those words
Step 3: wolves/cryptids get assigned
Step 4: they use their abilities and make a selection. They can seer willow and kill quartz
Step 5: assign dead body to the word that is killed
Step 6: randomize the remaining players with the remaining words

This allows all evil abilities to be used without worrying about the dead body or anyone getting their role switched

That sounds perfect except that I would say number five would render the first night phase pretty pointless. Might as well start with day one and say there's a random dead body with no role. Way easier and would start sooner. Unless there's a reason behind it that I'm not catching?

Yeah, wolves getting to use their powers on night 1 would make more sense.

Does the town not getting to use powers night 1 track?

I guess I'm trying to avoid shit like Kat immediately knowing you're a bad and it just dooming you right away. Wolves having information on someone immediately isn't quite as bad.

 

[TD]

If you're considering limiting abilities the first night, I think that messes with the balance a bit much.

I would think it makes more sense for Night 0 to be eliminated and just open with a Day Phase. That also eliminates the need for the Dead Body nonsense.

I know we use Night 0 because that's what Zell introduced from mimicking Wolvesville, but the games on OG GW typically started with day phases and they ran fine.

 

[dimmerwit]

Yeah, wolves getting to use their powers on night 1 would make more sense.

Does the town not getting to use powers night 1 track?

I guess I'm trying to avoid shit like Kat immediately knowing you're a bad and it just dooming you right away. Wolves having information on someone immediately isn't quite as bad.

It's unfortunate, but I don't think making the town weaker when they've recently had a 5 game losing streak to the wolves is the right solution.

Either keep night 0 or scrap it entirely.

 

[Ben]

 

[Ants!]

I might be biased because I didn't participate in that town losing streak.

 

[Ben]

It's unfortunate, but I don't think making the town weaker when they've recently had a 5 game losing streak to the wolves is the right solution.

Either keep night 0 or scrap it entirely.

I might be biased because I didn't participate in that town losing streak.

Yeah, I might also be biased because apparently in the games I've personally run, the town has won each time.

But just getting rid of the first night does seem to solve the problem in general.

 

[Kat]

I've felt pretty bad that I probably threw it to some degree with that random but obvious Quartz word. I'm not sure if it's 100% possible to stop people latching onto the memeiest choice, but I could have done better ensuring they were all neutral.

Nah, I hate being a seer and was happy to have "died" the first night.

guess that might ultimately be how we think Zell was doing it, maybe with the additional buffer on not using abilities during the first night. I think that might put everyone on a more level footing off the bat, as no one has direct information and the first day would be much more dependent on discussion.

I feel like nobody would talk at all if we did that. It's already like pulling teeth to get a discussion going on day one sometimes.

I guess I'm trying to avoid shit like Kat immediately knowing you're a bad and it just dooming you right away. Wolves having information on someone immediately isn't quite as bad.

That's partly why the fool exists, but even without that, there should be doubt: was my target shamaned? Maybe I'm evil and just lying and will claim they must've been shamaned? Maybe I'm evil and doing a sacrifice play? There have been lots of seer reads that weren't believed day one. I'm not sure mine really mattered this game, I think people were just bandwagoning on whoever TD pointed at.

@TD you should organize unions or something IRL. You clearly have a superpower.

 

[Ants!]

I feel like nobody would talk at all if we did that. It's already like pulling teeth to get a discussion going on day one sometimes.

While that is true, I also don't see it as a bad thing. Things will be swinging by day two. If anything we could maybe shorten day one to 16 hours or less to compensate. Maybe also not requiring 100% of players to skip on day one as well, provided everyone had at least a 12 hour window to check in on the game.

 

[Fool's Requiem]

just vote shortkut and chive on

 

[TD]

I think people were just bandwagoning on whoever TD pointed at.

@TD you should organize unions or something IRL. You clearly have a superpower.

Which was a fascinating development for me. Historically I would try to explain what I was seeing and why, yet people would be hesitant to vote with me. This time I pretty much didn't even articulate a reason and it somehow worked better.

Lessons were learned.

 

[Ants!]

He picked Kat over Vash.

 

[TD]

He picked Kat over Vash.

I am a firm believer in gimmicks over logic.

 

[Ants!]

I am a firm believer in gimmicks over logic.

I do envy that you had a yesman.

 

[Ben]

He picked Kat over Vash.

I think he just wanted to go to jail with Huckleberry McRib.

 

[Ants!]

I think he just wanted to go to jail with Huckleberry McRib.

lol true.

I'm just ribbing. It was basically a split decided by "he would die tonight anyway".

 

[TD]

Plus, plus, a longer game meant more podcasts to listen to.

Ben's Podcasts for MVP.

 

[Kat]

He picked Kat over Vash.

It was pretty funny that every team killed me this game.

 

[Ben]

 

[Ben]

I'm not sure how quickly the PPT podcast will return, as while it was fun and I got it down to being able to create an episode in about 20 minutes, it was still an extra layer of work.

However, I can't help but try to make these more narrative and interesting, so I'm sure it'll have some kind of gimmick.

I need an excuse to try to make creepy werewolf videos.

View attachment 6Z2JBD0JA219JTTQA0SNQJJYY0.mp4

View attachment SKTNE475S211195TK5FGZ3YPA0.mp4

 

[TD]

I'm not sure how quickly the PPT podcast will return, as while it was fun and I got it down to being able to create an episode in about 20 minutes, it was still an extra layer of work.

Understandable. I respect and appreciate the work that goes into it; but at the end of the day if it's too much time, it's too much time.

I do quite enjoy when there's storytelling elements to these games, in whatever form that takes.

 

[Ben]

Mmmmm... Polarizing.

Actually that makes it look like @Lunar Kreskents is giving the ol' Italian approval, which is funny to me.

I guess I probably shouldn't force creepy shit on people. It's less fun when @Tommy Boy isn't playing to scare anyway.

 

[shortkut]

He picked Kat over Vash.

There was a reason or two (see below)

I am a firm believer in gimmicks over logic.

This was a strong point
The other point was I got to cause a tie
The third, secret point, was that I was going to lock up the other person and have TD kill them if we got it wrong, so it didn’t matter.
The fourth, super-secret reason, was that I wanted TD to use vicious mockery to kill someone and I thought Vash would appreciate it more than Kat

 

[Ants!]

Okay we're back to voting shortkut again.

 

[shortkut]

Okay we're back to voting shortkut again.

 

[dimmerwit]

Still peak cinema.

 

[Jon]

I think another possible suggestion is just don't have the wolves make a choice on night 1 at all, since the result is just going to be "dead body" anyway. Or you could give them the choice of not to kill, in case they're worried about certain roles such as the spirit seer.

Assign roles to random words. Give evil their words/roles. Evil Seer can still check a word and kill. That victim becomes dead body and then everyone else is spread out around remaining words

Step 1: generate list of random words
Step 2: assign roles to those words
Step 3: wolves/cryptids get assigned
Step 4: they use their abilities and make a selection. They can seer willow and kill quartz
Step 5: assign dead body to the word that is killed
Step 6: randomize the remaining players with the remaining words

This allows all evil abilities to be used without worrying about the dead body or anyone getting their role switched

All this is fine and well, but the issue is the discussion phase of the night. The bads still have 24 hours to decide, so in the end, you still can't assign everyone else's roles until the bads pick their target. So it's irrelevant if it's the roles assigned to people or numbers. FWIW, I did assigned roles to numbers in my game. I believe Kelly was on the bad team and while waiting for his imput because of time zones, i couldn't assign out roles.

Add to that the inevitable "i got my role already" slip ups and I just don't see an easy way to do this.

 

[Ants!]

All this is fine and well, but the issue is the discussion phase of the night. The bads still have 24 hours to decide, so in the end, you still can't assign everyone else's roles until the bads pick their target. So it's irrelevant if it's the roles assigned to people or numbers. FWIW, I did assigned roles to numbers in my game. I believe Kelly was on the bad team and while waiting for his imput because of time zones, i couldn't assign out roles.

Add to that the inevitable "i got my role already" slip ups and I just don't see an easy way to do this.

Who said night one had to last 24 hours?

 

[Jon]

Who said night one had to last 24 hours?

12, 24... Night is usually 12, my bad. Same is true though, and I feel it needs to to accomodate time zones.

 

[Fool's Requiem]

Still peak cinema.

 

[Ants!]

12, 24... Night is usually 12, my bad. Same is true though, and I feel it needs to to accomodate time zones.

I feel like we do 12 because it should be long enough for any time zone, and night phase stuff is way shorter than an argument about who to lynch during the day.

 

[Jon]

I feel like we do 12 because it should be long enough for any time zone, and night phase stuff is way shorter than an argument about who to lynch during the day.

But keep in mind, I'm on the East coast, so if I want to start at 9, 10 am for simplicity, that means I need to start the night phase at 9, 10 pm my time. Which means I likely need the entire previous day to get baddie roles out to give them a chance to talk about who they want to kill, THEN start the night phase when I want.

I'm not saying it's impossible, i'm saying it's imperfect and I don't know if there is a good solution.

 

[Ants!]

I mean, run your game how you like and on whatever schedule works for you as the host, but if you go with the wolves-first thing then 12 hours for them and 12 hours more for the rest of the town. I guess that's where you get a 24 hour night phase from? That still doesn't mean the wolves get 24 hours to decide. They still get 12, then their part is done until the day opens.

 

[Ants!]

I get that someone on a different time zone might mean waiting around for a few hours, but anyone regardless of timezone should be able to squeeze in a night action in a 12 hour window.

 

[Jon]

I mean, run your game how you like and on whatever schedule works for you as the host, but if you go with the wolves-first thing then 12 hours for them and 12 hours more for the rest of the town. I guess that's where you get a 24 hour night phase from? That still doesn't mean the wolves get 24 hours to decide. They still get 12, then their part is done until the day opens.

No no, I was just tired and misspoke originally when I said 24 hours. Nights are 12. I was just saying that if you were to do all this bait and switch stuff and letting the bads pick their target before assigning roles is cumbersome. That's all. It is what it is and I'm sure SOMEONE will come up with a way to do it.

Some people switch people's role after the dead body is chosen. Like Kat in this game. I didn't want to do that in my game so nothing was given away. So I assigned the bads first, let them talk and pick, THEN assigned out other roles, so there was no role switch with the dead body.

 

[Ants!]

No no, I was just tired and misspoke originally when I said 24 hours. Nights are 12. I was just saying that if you were to do all this bait and switch stuff and letting the bads pick their target before assigning roles is cumbersome. That's all. It is what it is and I'm sure SOMEONE will come up with a way to do it.

Some people switch people's role after the dead body is chosen. Like Kat in this game. I didn't want to do that in my game so nothing was given away. So I assigned the bads first, let them talk and pick, THEN assigned out other roles, so there was no role switch with the dead body.

Those both sound like the same thing? Unless I'm missing something here. Wolves pick first and assign roles after is cumbersome, but that's the way you chose to do it in your game anyway?

 

[Jon]

Those both sound like the same thing? Unless I'm missing something here. Wolves pick first and assign roles after is cumbersome, but that's the way you chose to do it in your game anyway?

There is no "good" solution.

The only difference is I assigned bads first. Then everyone else after making the dead body who the bads pick.

The other method is assigning roles and then switching someone's role after the dead body is picked.

The only difference is when the first night opens. Neither is efficient.

I picked the way I felt worked better for me.

 

[Kat]

The third, secret point, was that I was going to lock up the other person and have TD kill them if we got it wrong, so it didn’t matter.
The fourth, super-secret reason, was that I wanted TD to use vicious mockery to kill someone and I thought Vash would appreciate it more than Kat

That's why I didn't fight the lynch. I figured you'd all have fun doing that.