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Zell Wolf Zell Wolf Rebirth (Just kidding, you're dead)
- Thread starter Zell 17
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Either you jam in a meta game or I can run an Aussie Dingo starting Saturday US time if we have enough interest
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Aside from the hard counter of the Berserk Werewolf, I think it requires being outed and targeted by something else to have any proper weakness - and at that point, just kill it.
That's not necessarily true: Alu and I weren't going to kill Holly, because then it acts as Seer and outs us both. It depends on the exact particulars and whether the Necromancer-type is still in play. I don't know that it would ever truly be worth it unless it's part of the move that ends the game.
But still curious to know what @Cole and @Kat would have decided upon if I hadn't been hit with Berserk, and subsequently captured them Night 2.
I don't know that this will ever end up being a consideration, would be the issue. Endgame is essentially Night 3.
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You don't know the half of it
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Meta game idea: normal wolf+cole
@Cole cannot be killed by any means. His role is to try to identify the wolves and then lock in his votes to make it official. Each wolf he identifies correctly, he can temp ban for up to 12 hours (his choice). Everyone else is playing to play the normal way
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Forwarding Raposuh's check of Kelly and lobotomizing him under Confusion would have changed the entire game.
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Additional cavaet, if Cole finds the Fool on Day 1 they're permabanned
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I think it's almost always worth it. It's a double kill for the wolves (you kill the warden + normal wolf kill, similar to what you guys did with the berserk). You only get outed as wolves IF the wolves haven't killed the ritualist and also are unable to kill the ritualist the next night. So basically the consequences would only arise a full three phases later. And as you've mentioned, in this game that is a LONG time.
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@Christina what was your favorite part of the game? Was it when vash shot himself in the face?
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this would imply Mark has authority over me. he doesn't. we're on equal footing.
I mean, I'm *not* playing, so there's that.
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This would imply that I have authority.
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It's pretty clear that no one has authority outside of the ability to change my name
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This motherfucka WOULD.
Except for you. You’re the only one that can’t change your name.
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Or just that he has the ability to do that
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Oh I know it didn't affect this game, I'm just saying, in general, it prevents a lot of mechanics from being used (like wolves breaking out and killing the warden).
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The game only felt unbalanced because with the exception of Kat, you all flew flags day 2 that said "We are all wolves". What was basically a 7v6 game was pro-town? Wut.
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What flag did I fly? For real. I claimed a townie role and TD immediately (randomly?) claimed I was a wolf.
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The game only felt unbalanced for the town (towards the wolves) because we hit a berserk for the first kill and got silly lucky when Vash pulled a Dick Cheney. If not for that, the town wins this without much effort.
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I think it boils down to both night 1 and 2. I can't say we did anything optimally day 1 other than convince a no lynch in a situation that wasn't favorable to us. Hitting Cole night 1 was a detriment he could've used to fish for warden/seer checks. Night 2 being a huge W for us made us too overconfident and we then dropped the ball thinking it's an easy win now, especially since we had Local and guardian still.
But night 2 was also incredibly lucky for us as the town wasn't worried about a zerker enough so we just got our shot there. It would've been much harder to do if it was a guaranteed wolf. And Vashicide was kind of... half expected thing to happen in our wolf games, but during the same night it was nuts.
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Even if you had all switched to Tommy, you still wouldn't have won. Switching last minute like that makes wolves look desperate. Your guys' problem, as Jawneh agrees, is that you bet EVERYTHING on Day 2. Hell, Jon even said "Ahaha I'm a wolf!" at the end of Day 2. You guys all acted in the same exact way, made the same shoddy arguments, and none of you (except Jon and Kat) voted with the town. The only one who still had some doubt about them at that point was Kat.
It's like Cole said: you guys lost because you were bad at lying. You can't complain about a game of deception being too unbalanced because you guys didn't lie well. You had valid strategies to win, but you didn't use them. You should've targetted Kut, or even better, Local, and you should've varied your arguments instead of all sounding like the same PR speech.
We weren't serious -- at least, I wasn't. I had spoken with Zell before about punishments for this and I knew nothing would happen to you. We were teasing you.I mistakenly responded in the thread instead of PM, everyone was demanding a punishment, even though we were already in such a vulnerable position. And it made me sad
You needed more than one townie to vote elsewhere though. You needed TWO townies to do it. Instead of fighting about something that wasn't going to happen, you guys should've dogpiled on to Raposa way before the end of the day. Sell one of your own and you gain credibility. Or, like I said, if you guys sold Local instead of Alu, you win the game. "We didn't have the numbers" doesn't make sense when it's 7v6. If you "have the numbers" you have already won the game.
Fair, but read the room. The game was stacked against town. If you played along, the plan gets weaker.
He does that to everyone. FWIW I wasn't convinced you were a wolf until Day 2 when you guys were all parroting the same talking points. You were trying to control the narrative but you weren't doing it in a believable way. You kept saying I was a wolf when I said I was in prison and would've died. You kept saying I was wolf fan, which made a bit more sense, but it wasn't a gamble the town was willing to make. Pick a less credible target.
Could be, but you have to account for those mistakes. The town made TWO mistakes -- two, that's it! -- and could've lost the game because of it? I don't think that's fair or balanced for the town.
You keep saying this like it's a fact, but it's not. The only reason I offered my strategy Day 1 was because I thought the town didn't stand a chance. The game came down to 7v6 and you're saying it was stacked? It was a 50/50 lynch that the town was stuck on and it's stacked?
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This was taken out of context and viewed as an admission by you (and I do see how it was looked at that way). My literal only plan with that was to continue to sow the seed of doubt about what the other random wolf role was. I knew I was running out of time before the thread closed and unlike the mods, my posts don't go through. I was legit trying to rush to beat the clock to say "Hey there could be a second guardian wolf." Timing and everything was just off. But, no, that wasn't an admission (not purposely anyway).
You say this, but the wolves made one mistake. Not dogpiling on Tommy at the switch. Not to mention the reason we didn't was we felt it was a trap and Tubby SAID it was and he would have swapped because he was watching it. Without Tubby's vote we didn't have enough to brute force like you said, so all we would have done is expose ourselves. But that's it. That's the only real mistake we made and it cost us the game. Cole getting hit and burning the first confuse charge? That was unlucky, not a mistake. In the end, the town's two mistakes were STILL more than we were allowed. All our other mistakes came after when we were scrambling to make up for it.
You can slice it any way you want. And that is fine, you're entitled to your opinion. But you're not going to get me to believe that the town was at a disadvantage more than the wolves were. So as long as you're ok to agree to disagree, I can't say more.
as the wolves will tell you and I will tell you now.
if they had switched to Tommy (as I suggested in chat) the game was over. we were online in the final minutes and I guarantee you we could've timed it to be in the final second.
Tommy dead, the game becomes 6v6, it's *literally* over.
the only reason they didn't is because they thought @Tubby23 was baiting for switches and then would switch back st the last second for a guaranteed wolf list.
otherwise, everything else you said is pretty irrelevant given it's all your hypothesis on what it *looks* like it was, while ignoring what it actually was.
and what it actually was was another decisive town victory. and you can sit there and critique what you think the other team did wrong from the winning side, but when you've won a game of wolf in Zells format, we can revisit you lecturing literally any one on "how to play wolf". the numbers literally don't matter in this format. YOUR fuckup in strategy is what gave us the berserk.
I'll happily post the logs where they debate who to berserk, and I flat out said it should be TD because he was my best guess at being protected. at no time was his post asking to be jailed even mentioned because not one of bus saw it, or not one of us brought it up if they did.
VASHS incorrect decision got us 3 kills in a night. that wasn't the wolves making some grand decision, that was town mistakes. I stand by our strategy to be aggressive on the second day. it was literally the game winning kill and we only needed to convince ONE of you (and we did, Tubby switched), it was literally the game.
that's OUR mistake, but I stand by the play to aggressively chase the final kill.
the wildcard here was everyone (to Alus very much agreement) no one even CONSIDERED Raposas read was accurate. everyone for some reason decided to straight up ignore it entirely. I don't think anyone even commented on it other than you.
I love you man, but you're very wrong in how you view this game, and sometimes wolf in general.
you admit the reason it felt imbalanced to you was the 7 on 6, while not admitting the REASON it was 7 on 6, and the reason it was 7 on 6 was the town's fault. even if you're gonna pretend it wasn't your strategy, and even if you wanna claim I'm lying about seeing TDs request, then it's still HIS mistake thst lead to a free berserk.
luck and town misplay got you to 7v6.
the game wasn't insurmountable for the wolves, it never is. but it requires a group of wolves willing and CAPABLE of lying. and I'm not sure there's even 5 of them here. and since that's never going to happen, and unless the format drastically changes, it's always going to be a town win.
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...But it was though. You sounded like a wolf that got cocky about a victory. If you didn't say that, if you didn't make the same repetitive wolf arguments, I wouldn't think you were a wolf.
Lmao no, this was not the mistake. The last wolves were you and Kat, and if you both switched last minute it wouldn't have convinced anyone or made anyone believe you weren't wolves. The best thing you could've done was stay on Local and NOT try to brute force it Day 2 like I've been saying again and again. Tubby only switched because he was trying to prove a point and he knew that the town had the votes anyway. Not switching to Tommy last minute was NOT a mistake.
No, and if you truly believe that, you're going to continue to not play well as wolves.
That was unlucky, but it wasn't THAT big of a deal. You guys had numbers.
I'll list some more:
1. Not hiding behind a role type claim
2. Uniting and claiming I was evil when I was the only one who had credibly proven I was safe
3. Then claiming Raposa was safe even though he confirmed I was good
4. Not getting the town to vote for Local
5. Not getting the town to vote for shortkut
6. Calling one of the only four people who were put down as "random" a wold
7. Saying over and over again that "such and such strategy is dumb" and not providing any other strategy
8. Saying "HAHA MAYBE THERE ARE TWO GUARDIANS" end of day makes you look very sus, like you're mocking the town about a sure win or trying to get yourself killed
9. Not selling one of your own wolves to the town
10. Not contesting my claims that I was jailed with TD and Raine as warden
11. Spreading your votes out instead of voting with the town
12. Basically admitting end of day 2 that you were wolf
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@Cole the fact that you said the wolves were that close to winning - even taking into account Vash's awful assassination of me - should at least give people some hope that it isn't as impossible as it seems.
I kept Raposuh's post in the back of my mind at times, especially given how difficult Alu is to read. If Raposuh came up innocent, then Alu for sure was going to be targeted. Several of us had Tommy Boy selected, and as you said, if all of you switched at the last possible instant, the wolves would have won.
The town was waaaay closer to losing this one than many realize.
I kept Raposuh's post in the back of my mind at times, especially given how difficult Alu is to read. If Raposuh came up innocent, then Alu for sure was going to be targeted. Several of us had Tommy Boy selected, and as you said, if all of you switched at the last possible instant, the wolves would have won.
The town was waaaay closer to losing this one than many realize.
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Just saw this now, and lol.Cole and Kelly will do it to you, too. Alu is about the only person that can consistently get away with entirely shrugging these off without moving the needle in some way.
The only time I gave up was in the first mafia game when I expected Cole to be dead and outed, which would have 100% sealed my fate since he seered me the day before. I was caught off guard and not mentally prepared to actually put up a fight. Plus the added bonus of knowing kut had leaked the whole thing and I was just out.
Now I'm just letting my brain do it's own thing and figure it out as I go.
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I guess if you were all online you could've done that. Seems like a pretty glaring mistake then.
I thought another one of the wolves said it didn't have to do with the strategy, but had to do with TD fingering 5 of the wolves day one?
And anyway, the strategy was what helped out a bunch of wolves in the end and win the town the game that they very well should've lost, so I'm not sure it was as much of a fuck up as you claim.
Fair, but seems like an oversight.
It was that strategy that doomed you. Have a little introspection. Even if you are aggressive day 2, channel it in the right direction. The thought process of targetting Alu didn't make sense. If you case doubt on Tommy's claim Local was neutral by saying he was Evil, game over for town.
You think the town shouldn't be able to make a single mistake? Seems a little bit unfair.
Hell, I lost the last game as a wolf and it felt way more fair and balanced than this game.
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I had thought of it and thought that was the obvious reason to go for it. I double checked from Zell if murdering a person being wardened would kill the warden too. Maybe it wasn't as obvious to everyone else then.
Also @Jon . I get pretty much everything you're saying as I was there too, but we did still play poorly after night 2. Everything day 2 onwards wasn't good for us and still could've salvaged it, but we couldn't made that happen either. We all chose the wrong things to do for what could've been a very fast win, but we dropped the ball being overconfident and betting all on day 2. Sure, there are still things balance wise against the wolves that I don't like, but this game was predominantly our bad plays.
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As I said, you read it as that. That was not the intent. I am not arguing what it looked like. Just correcting the intent.
Then I will never play well as a wolf. Because that WAS our only mistake up to that point of the game. As I'll repeat in a minute, everything else you mention as "mistakes" is circumstantial at best and revisionist history at worst. I find it very difficult to believe if you weren't a wolf in this game your tune would be very different.
And if you believe that this was not a big deal, you will never be able to see truth in other people's words. THIS cost us the game. Had we got one of you on night zero, with a confuse charge, then night one we hit the zerker kill AND Vash Kurt Cobain's it, wolves win. This was unlucky and a HUGE deal. You're intelligent, man, I KNOW you see that. The "numbers" you keep referencing are not relevant. We did not have enough to force a vote without getting townies on our side, and the only opportunity we had was a trap (we didn't bite on mind you).
As above, every single thing you're mentioning in this list is circumstantial or revisionist. You act like it is SO easy to do any one of those things, when not being able to flip Alu when he had zero defense shows you all were locked in on us from the get and that's that. So, I stand by my opinion.
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I agree wholeheartedly. But that was all the result of making a single mistake of not dogpiling Tommy. You remember the chats. Every one was "well we could do this, but X, Y, Z need to happen and we need to dodge 3 blocks and a rez." That's not a conducive environment that's balanced, I'd say.
But, you're 100% right. We were terrible after night 2.