Zell Wolf You are dead

[Raine]

I'm trying not to change a rule during the game unless it's game breaking.

The one I did change midgame was the wolf seer order. I changed it so the wolf seer checks before the Illusionist disguises. The reason was if I made the wolf seer wait until after the Illu made their choice, it's possible that the Illu could wait until the very end of the phase to decide. In that case, the wolves would have no ability to make an informed choice on who to kill because they wouldn't get their wolf seer results in time before they had to choose a person to kill. That to me was game breaking, so I swapped it.

I would hazard that this makes the Blind Wolf massively overpowered, though. There's no possible way for the Independents to hide or pursue their goals; by Night 4 there's a near-100% likelihood that the wolves know the correct identity of every living players. The rationale for the Spirit Seer should apply to the Blind Wolf; the Aura Seer and Wolf Seer/Sorcerer can be the speedy variant.

If this change happened after @Fool's Requiem was snapped, it also had an extraordinarily high probability of dooming @TD.

 

[TD]

Ding ding ding. Raine's the winner.

 

[Fool's Requiem]

Moral of the story: Stop killing me early.

 

[TD]

Fun fact.

When he did it I was tilted so I was going to start knocking out wolves so I initially tagged Tommy.

Then I thought about it and I wanted to tag the Fool to try for more chaos but then someone had to jail him.

That was basically it for me which meant nowhere to hide Night 2/3.

Blind Wolf is definitely over powered though.

 

[Smacktard]

I would hazard that this makes the Blind Wolf massively overpowered, though. There's no possible way for the Independents to hide or pursue their goals; by Night 4 there's a near-100% likelihood that the wolves know the correct identity of every living players.

It should be obvious to wolves by Night 3 at latest who all the players are, even without a Blind Wolf, as long as they have one seer that doesn't get killed.

The issue with the RK isn't that the wolves will find out their role by Night 3 -- it's a question of timing: when should the wolves try to get them killed? How can they initiate that lynch?

 

[Zell 17]

I would hazard that this makes the Blind Wolf massively overpowered, though. There's no possible way for the Independents to hide or pursue their goals; by Night 4 there's a near-100% likelihood that the wolves know the correct identity of every living players. The rationale for the Spirit Seer should apply to the Blind Wolf; the Aura Seer and Wolf Seer/Sorcerer can be the speedy variant.

If this change happened after @Fool's Requiem was snapped, it also had an extraordinarily high probability of dooming @TD.

The Blind wolf isn't a wolf seer. Basically all it tells the wolves is whether someone is a townie or not, they wouldn't be able to tell the difference between say a marksman or a beast hunter or a tough guy.

I will say, in the game I borrowed these roles from, the blind wolf CANNOT be confused by the disguises at all and only receives true information. Also, the disguises don't take effect until the daytime so it doesn't affect villager reads either. I felt like I was already giving the Illusionist a lot of power by moving their ability up in the order to confuse seers the same night, I just didn't realize the unintended consequences with the wolves.

Part of it was a time zone thing too. The wolves needed information early because Kelly and Benzine was on the team. Couple that with the fact that several of the night phases started right as I was going to be going to bed, real life became a big factor here too. I guess the other option I could have done was extend the night phase to a full 24 hours and make TD promise to get his kills in quickly. I couldn't find a good solution.

 

[Smacktard]

Blind Wolf is definitely over powered though.

It has its pros and cons. BW can't identify hazards like beast hunter, avenger, or powerful townies. All we get is "member of village". It's really not that difficult to sus out the non-townies. We were almost positive Local was Fool by end of Day 1 and I was sure you were Illusionist by end of Day 2. We didn't check either of you until Night 2.

 

[Raine]

It should be obvious to wolves by Night 3 at latest who all the players are, even without a Blind Wolf, as long as they have one seer that doesn't get killed.

I'm iffy on providing the wolves the distinction between "Guaranteed" and "Possible" townies, even. It gives them complete clairvoyance for 2 people per night. Possibly in addition to a third, if the otherwise worthless role of Berserk had random'd into Wolf Seer. ...Or, Baphomet forbid, rolled into a second Blind Wolf.

The issue with the RK isn't that the wolves will find out their role by Night 3 -- it's a question of timing: when should the wolves try to get them killed? How can they initiate that lynch?

Blind Wolf serving as a hard counter for Illusionist is fine, in theory. But in the wider context of that thing being a possible wolf role with other types of RKs? Ehh... I'm not feeling it.

 

[Tubby23]

Can I make also another suggestion with Night/Day phases and that's the length of them. I think we need to have a minimum threshold to account for timezones. I feel like with the skipping (which I think is great for both pace of game and tactics) there can be times where say Benzine, Kelly and I are not going to get a chance to participate properly.
Could be wrong but it's just a gut feeling that it needs a tweak

 

[Raine]

The Blind wolf isn't a wolf seer. Basically all it tells the wolves is whether someone is a townie or not, they wouldn't be able to tell the difference between say a marksman or a beast hunter or a tough guy.

11. Blind Wolf
Aura: Evil
Each night can check up to two people and gather information about their role. They will be told that their target is one of the following: Villager on Random List, Villager NOT on Random List, Solo Role (Non-violent), Solo Role (Killer). Selection is made via PM at night. Cannot vote with the other wolves unless the Blind Wolf resigns their ability. Once the ability is resigned it can never return. The Blind Wolf can check, resign, and vote in the same night.

That's a seer lol

 

[Zell 17]

I'm iffy on providing the wolves the distinction between "Guaranteed" and "Possible" townies, even. It gives them complete clairvoyance for 2 people per night. Possibly in addition to a third, if the otherwise worthless role of Berserk had random'd into Wolf Seer. ...Or, Baphomet forbid, rolled into a second Blind Wolf.


Blind Wolf serving as a hard counter for Illusionist is fine, in theory. But in the wider context of that thing being a possible wolf role with other types of RKs? Ehh... I'm not feeling it.

It’s doesn’t provide between “fixed” and “random”, it’s between “on the random list” or not. So everyone in this game would show as “regular villager” except the Jailer and Ritualist.

 

[A Punched Face]

Just to be clear, the wolves still have not won a single game and this game was tilted even more in our favor, and people are more complaining that it was too much in favor of the wolves?

That's BS.

If Raine hadn't revived TD the town was very likely to win this. The only way you wouldn't have would have been to follow my plan exactly of lynching vash and having vash target me while thinking I was the only wolf alive.

That's a lot of decisions outside my control right there.

 

[Smacktard]

Or, Baphomet forbid, rolled into a second Blind Wolf

This take is completely off. You're vastly overestimating Blind Wolf's usefulness given the way GW plays wolf. Having a second blind wolf would be just about as useless as having a regular werewolf.

 

[Raine]

Part of it was a time zone thing too. The wolves needed information early because Kelly and Benzine was on the team. Couple that with the fact that several of the night phases started right as I was going to be going to bed, real life became a big factor here too. I guess the other option I could have done was extend the night phase to a full 24 hours and make TD promise to get his kills in quickly. I couldn't find a good solution.

I completely understand the challenges with this. It's also kind of a function wherein I'm not sure I super like the idea of, like, skipping day phases without unanimous approval from everyone - which allows for a more expedient end of games, but doesn't otherwise fuck anyone over.

I completely feel for @Benzine's plight today. I was against skipping before he even had a chance to show up, wolf or not. I was more agreeable to the skip after he had a chance to chime in, and whatever contributions he (or I, really, when I got to them) made would have largely been moot... but it's the principle of the thing.

A firm start and stop point should be established. If a skip occurs, instead of altering the ending time, you simply add the time of the skip to the beginning of the next phase. Something like that.

 

[Raine]

This take is completely off. You're vastly overestimating Blind Wolf's usefulness given the way GW plays wolf. Having a second blind wolf would be just about as useless as having a regular werewolf.

I just got done playing a game with y'all where I literally lied about my role. Tubby Boy shenanigans notwithstanding, I would have stuck to my guns. Being an also-ran on a two-a-night check is just objectively not good; I have no problem with the wolves having the Wolf Seer/Sorcerer.

 

[Smacktard]

I just got done playing a game with y'all where I literally lied about my role.

way

It was pretty well-established fairly early on that you were the Ritualist and no one really doubted that.

Being an also-ran on a two-a-night check is just objectively not good

English pls, Raine. I have no idea what you're trying to say.

 

[Raine]

It’s doesn’t provide between “fixed” and “random”, it’s between “on the random list” or not. So everyone in this game would show as “regular villager” except the Jailer and Ritualist.

This time, yes. And the Gunner, before that 11th hour punt to Marksman. There are 8 Strong Townie roles in the journal. It's a seer.

Whenever we talk shop, I'm not going to have a singular game as a reference point. I'm going to use the approach of "does this seem like a good thing to have in random rotation" - and my answer is no.

 

[A Punched Face]

If you want the illusionist stuff to happen before the wolves have a chance to seer, have the Illusionist pick their targets like the jailer: send it in before the end of the day phase with an exception for night 1.

 

[Smacktard]

I don't know why Illusionist should get the privilege of better hiding their role from wolves when every other RK lacks that privilege.

 

[A Punched Face]

This time, yes. And the Gunner, before that 11th hour punt to Marksman. There are 8 Strong Townie roles in the journal. It's a seer.

Whenever we talk shop, I'm not going to have a singular game as a reference point. I'm going to use the approach of "does this seem like a good thing to have in random rotation" - and my answer is no.

The wolves still lost in the game must heavily stacked in our favor and you're arguing to take any advantage away from them.

Think about that.

I say this knowing full well I'm not always going to be a wolf (I hope).

 

[Raine]

English pls, Raine. I have no idea what you're trying to say.

I'm sorry I'm hyper as fuck right now.

I'm saying: I was role claiming Beast Hunter. If Tubby/Tommy hadn't done their thing, I was going to continue claiming Beast Hunter. The Blind Wolf would have sussed me out twice as fast - and, probably, as a "eh, might as well" secondary check to the wolves' actual intended party - and I don't think that is good design in a generalized sense.

 

[Zell 17]

If you want the illusionist stuff to happen before the wolves have a chance to seer, have the Illusionist pick their targets like the jailer: send it in before the end of the day phase with an exception for night 1.

That hurts the solo role too much IMO. They have the least info in the game already and would have to make their "kill" choice before knowing the result of the town lynch.

Imagine a situation where two "seers" call each other evil. The town votes for one. If the town lynches the actual aura seer, the solo killer may want to kill a wolf. If they lynch a wolf, the solo may want to kill a villager.

 

[Raine]

I say this knowing full well I'm not always going to be a wolf (I hope).

Nah man, you've been pigeonholed. Gotta live with it.

And yes, I know the wolves have the deck stacked so unbelievably against them. Even with all my wheeling and dealing this game, with TD's tomfoolery, with the town actually starting to lie more, with the wolves pushing with all their might, it still... ended up being a wash. I get that. That needs to be addressed still.

But I think that's different from letting a questionable role go unopposed just because our overall balance isn't quite there yet. Y'know?

 

[Smacktard]

I'm saying: I was role claiming Beast Hunter. If Tubby/Tommy hadn't done their thing, I was going to continue claiming Beast Hunter

It sounds like you made a short-sighted role claim and think the game rules should be altered to cater to that.

 

[Zell 17]

This take is completely off. You're vastly overestimating Blind Wolf's usefulness given the way GW plays wolf. Having a second blind wolf would be just about as useless as having a regular werewolf.

The real "power" of the blind wolf is you have two cracks at trying to find a "strong villager" like the medium the first night before anyone can save them / they can spell a villager etc. After night 1, I'd rather have an actual wolf seer that can see the real roles.

 

[Smacktard]

After night 1, I'd rather have an actual wolf seer that can see the real roles

Bingo. That's exactly how we felt. We had a good handle of who the Fool was by Night 1, and without even steering them on Night 2, we had the RK figured out too. Actual roles would've been much more useful.

 

[A Punched Face]

Nah man, you've been pigeonholed. Gotta live with it.

And yes, I know the wolves have the deck stacked so unbelievably against them. Even with all my wheeling and dealing this game, with TD's tomfoolery, with the town actually starting to lie more, with the wolves pushing with all their might, it still... ended up being a wash. I get that. That needs to be addressed still.

But I think that's different from letting a questionable role go unopposed just because our overall balance isn't quite there yet. Y'know?

It's not questionable though. You're just thinking it's over powered when it's really not as much as you think it is.

 

[Tubby23]

The wolves still lost in the game must heavily stacked in our favor and you're arguing to take any advantage away from them.

Think about that.

I say this knowing full well I'm not always going to be a wolf (I hope).

Not helped by me taking a pot shot

 

[Raine]

It sounds like you made a short-sighted role claim and think the game rules should be altered to cater to that.

Short-sighted in what way? The lying Zell encourages doesn't only apply to the wolves, it applies to everyone. Ben was honest about his role, and he immediately died for it. Not having a claim with the way y'all insist on playing means you die; outing yourself as a valuable role means you die.

The Blind Wolf is additional power in the hands of the people whose singular advantage is supposed to be that they're an informed minority. A lot of these roles go entirely too far, do entirely too much, and need to be addressed. Adding more on top of that isn't going to make things better, it's just going to break them in different - and amusing, admittedly - ways.

It's not questionable though. You're just thinking it's over powered when it's really not as much as you think it is.

I'unno about all that, it really does seem like too much to me. But if you're okay being against 1 or 2 of them in any random town configuration, I'm not gonna keep pounding the drum.

 

[Zell 17]

I have to be honest with you.

I was not at all happy with this. It changed everything for me and it irked me in a really bad way.

I do not think action order should be changed mid game and I would have been perfectly content getting my reads to you within a certain time of the night phase like I initially suggested.

Hell, if the game started with that action order I would not have killed FR Day 1 and who knows who he targets.

I knew you were pissed about it. Sorry. My oversight in setting up the game, always things I don't foresee.

 

[Smacktard]

Short-sighted in what way?

Short-sighted in the way that you made a role claim that would've put you at odds with your actual role, but only when blind wolf is in play, and are now vouching for a rule change in order for this one specific exception to be allowed. You could just as easily have claimed a *different* "strong" role if you wanted to hide the fact that You're ritualist. You're advocating for wolves to be even less informed when information is their only weapon and the BW has very little power past Night 1.

 

[Ants!]

When can I water shortkut again

 

[A Punched Face]

Bingo. That's exactly how we felt. We had a good handle of who the Fool was by Night 1, and without even steering them on Night 2, we had the RK figured out too. Actual roles would've been much more useful.

Yeah, when we checked TD and Local that night, it was just to confirm what we already knew really.

Hell, the last night we had it we ended up checking Benzine because we had nothing better to do.


Had we been able to get actual roles, we would have found out that either tubby was sheriff on night 1, or that kut was avenger. We wouldn't have needed to wait until tubby made his claim to prevent the only other actual "seer" type role the town had from getting to do something useful. All we knew that he and kut were townies in roles that could have been guaranteed or random.

 

[Smacktard]

Hell, the last night we had it we ended up checking Benzine because we had nothing better to do.

Yep, and another villager who we were sure was random just to make extra double sure that they weren't the Illusionist. Also having a shaman wolf in a game without any true seers was pretty useless.

 

[A Punched Face]

Yep, and another villager who we were sure was random just to make extra double sure that they weren't the Illusionist. Also having a shaman wolf in a game without any true seers was pretty useless.

We did get the one bonus that made vash sus. But the only player who would have been fooled by it was killed the first night.

We essentially only had the blind wolf power after the first night, because even if we were able to berserk, it would have done nothing.

 

[Zell 17]

We did get the one bonus that made vash sus. But the only player who would have been fooled by it was killed the first night.

We essentially only had the blind wolf power after the first night, because even if we were able to berserk, it would have done nothing.

Yeah it was funny, you guys got "good wolf draws" that were completely useless. A shaman wolf with no seers. A berserk wolf with no protectors.

 

[Ants!]

Yeah it was funny, you guys got "good wolf draws" that were completely useless. A shaman wolf with no seers. A berserk wolf with no protectors.

Shaman made it look like Vash and I were on different teams though?

 

[A Punched Face]

Shaman made it look like Vash and I were on different teams though?

Yeah but that information was useless until the second day, and the town didn't act on it at all. There was no extra use after that.

Imagine if cg had lived and provided that information? Presuming you still priest kut and die, does the town go after vash after you've proven Innocence on yourself?

 

[Raine]

Short-sighted in the way that you made a role claim that would've put you at odds with your actual role, but only when blind wolf is in play, and are now vouching for a rule change in order for this one specific exception to be allowed. You could just as easily have claimed a *different* "strong" role if you wanted to hide the fact that You're ritualist. You're advocating for wolves to be even less informed when information is their only weapon and the BW has very little power past Night 1.

I literally couldn't, though. There are only 8 Strong Townies to begin with; only 2 were present in this game. Additionally, Ritualist carries Unknown aura. If Blind Seer sees "Not in Random List" when checking me or Ben, no matter the circumstances, we are auto-kills. Full stop. If Blind Wolf sees a Solo, ostensibly without prior knowledge of everything on behalf of just the Illusionist in the Random Killer pool, they know with 100% certainty what they are. It's not a binary "Yes/No" town, it distinctly defines players as one of four categories. It. Is. A. Seer. And an incredibly powerful one, at that.

Anyway, this goes back to the discussion after Game 6 with regards to intentionality versus random assignment. This is the second game in a row where, for all intents and purposes, Berserk Werewolf served no purpose. Not because of bad play, but because the roles literally were not there for it to matter. There has to be a concentrated effort and care given to what roles are included from the word go for any of this to begin to work with the way our community approaches the game, from the amount of time we spend per action to the very nature of who we are as people.

 

[A Punched Face]

It. Is. A. Seer. And an incredibly powerful one, at that.

It's a weak seer, but you're not going to agree.

 

[Smacktard]

If Blind Seer sees "Not in Random List" when checking me or Ben, no matter the circumstances, we are auto-kills. Full stop. If Blind Wolf sees a Solo, ostensibly without prior knowledge of everything on behalf of just the Illusionist in the Random Killer pool, they know with 100% certainty what they are. It's not a binary "Yes/No" town, it distinctly defines players as one of four categories.

You're listing all of the benefits of the BW, but none of its drawbacks. There is almost no need for the BW to know the RK early into the game, and any game with a single regular Wolf Seer would have probably deduced it by Day 3 at latest anyway. BW's importance drops exponentially as the game goes on, but a Wolf Seer stays relevant for much longer. And not having a firm view of non-random roles makes it harder to pick your targets if you don't seer a strong role. Past night 1, we had a team of virtually useless wolves (power-wise).

 

[A Punched Face]

By the second night we had seen 4 regular townie roles and 0 anything else.

Raine is assuming we'd have nailed the RK or strong roles by then. But all we had was useless "they're townies that may or may not be able to kill you if you kill them" information.

 

[Raine]

You're listing all of the benefits of the BW, but none of its drawbacks. There is almost no need for the BW to know the RK early into the game, and any game with a single regular Wolf Seer would have probably deduced it by Day 3 at latest anyway. BW's importance drops exponentially as the game goes on, but a Wolf Seer stays relevant for much longer. And not having a firm view of non-random roles makes it harder to pick your targets if you don't seer a strong role. Past night 1, we had a team of virtually useless wolves (power-wise).

By the second night we had seen 4 regular townie roles and 0 anything else.

Raine is assuming we'd have nailed the RK or strong roles by then. But all we had was useless "they're townies that may or may not be able to kill you if you kill them" information.

Nonono, I need you guys to hold. I reemphasize: I'm not talking about this game.

I'm talking about Blind Wolf as it exists now and would potentially exist in future games.

I understand that, here, Blind Wolf loses value because 1) there were only 2 Strong Townies, one of which outed themselves immediately and the other on Day 2, 2) there was a very obvious Solo (Non-Killer), and 3) you had determined through your own skill who the Solo (Killer) was. I get all that. But that will not always be the case.

Further, I already pointed out that only the Jailer existing (and, again, they immediately died lol) for protection invalidates Berserk. I didn't point out, but do acknowledge, that Shaman was worthless because it only had Detective - which died Night 0 lol - to play footsie with. I understand your arguments, I get your points, I completely agree. It is what I was going on about last game where I got railroaded before even seeing the thread.

But that's a different (set of) problem(s). Consider how Blind Wolf would work in other scenarios, with different role lists. That's where I'm arguing from. The wolves need a win badly, insofar that they need a buff and the town needs a huge nerf, but I simply don't think a role like this gets us closer to that.

 

[A Punched Face]

Nonono, I need you guys to hold. I reemphasize: I'm not talking about this game.

I'm talking about Blind Wolf as it exists now and would potentially exist in future games.

I understand that, here, Blind Wolf loses value because 1) there were only 2 Strong Townies, one of which outed themselves immediately and the other on Day 2, 2) there was a very obvious Solo (Non-Killer), and 3) you had determined through your own skill who the Solo (Killer) was. I get all that. But that will not always be the case.

Further, I already pointed out that only the Jailer existing (and, again, they immediately died lol) for protection invalidates Berserk. I didn't point out, but do acknowledge, that Shaman was worthless because it only had Detective - which died Night 0 lol - to play footsie with. I understand your arguments, I get your points, I completely agree. It is what I was going on about last game where I got railroaded before even seeing the thread.

But that's a different (set of) problem(s). Consider how Blind Wolf would work in other scenarios, with different role lists. That's where I'm arguing from. The wolves need a win badly, insofar that they need a buff and the town needs a huge nerf, but I simply don't think a role like this gets us closer to that.

That's the issue, you're trying to find an example where it's over powered and you're being given an example where it's mostly useless.

That should tell you the role is fine as is.

 

[VashTheStampede]

Does anyone think that the balance issues would be less of an issue with a larger player base?

I'm not as well versed in the analytics of things as most of you and 99% of my experience in the game has been since this site launched, so I'm curious as to more experienced/intelligent takes.

 

[A Punched Face]

"it could be overy powered in this specific set of circumstances" is not a good reason to nuke a role when it takes a very specific setup for that to happen.

Like when the town literally was whoops all seers the seer role was over powered for the town.

 

[A Punched Face]

Does anyone think that the balance issues would be less of an issue with a larger player base?

I'm not as well versed in the analytics of things as most of you and 99% of my experience in the game has been since this site launched, so I'm curious as to more experienced/intelligent takes.

It makes it tougher because you're not used to everyone and it's not the same set of people every time. Can't say "they normally play like this" and figure things out.

 

[Raine]

Does anyone think that the balance issues would be less of an issue with a larger player base?

I'm not as well versed in the analytics of things as most of you and 99% of my experience in the game has been since this site launched, so I'm curious as to more experienced/intelligent takes.

According to Zell this works fine within the Wolvesville app where nobody knows anybody else, day phases last seconds (60?) and entire games end in ~25 minutes. Ostensibly there are countless dozens, if not hundreds, of role permutations that exist there and not here, as well.

By all accounts it's supposed to be a pretty low-effort, chaos-fueled fever dream that's really just passing the time. More than, say, being a reasonable clashing of wits.

Not that I would know from personal experience, 100% of my wolf/mafia experience comes from GWF and the OG forums. All I can tell you is what everybody can see - it's either not translating/adapting particularly well, or we're not playing the game "correctly."

 

[Zell 17]

It's weird right, because when we do these post-mortems everyone talks about how overpowered the town is.

But when the actual game starts people play it differently. Especially if the town doesn't lynch an evil day 1, all the evils do is worry about each other and assume the town is basically dead. I wish everyone thought the town was as powerful during the game as they seem to think it is after the game.

 

[TD]

.

I knew you were pissed about it. Sorry. My oversight in setting up the game, always things I don't foresee.

Thanks Zell. I appreciate the apology.