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Would you rather run into a bear or random man in the woods?

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Realistically, it’s a loaded question. If some woman thinks walking into the woods and running into a bear is safer than any dude, she needs to reevaluate her thought process. I get the risk of running into the wrong dude, but there’s no such thing as the right bear you’d want to encounter.

Now, I’m sure someone might come along and point out a red panda or a docile bear, but no one’s going to be threatened by a red panda standing up because how they square up on you is fucking adorable, and you’re a fool if you think that docile bear doesn’t have the potential to rip your face off if it feels like it… just like a man.

I get the apprehension towards certain men, and why women feel this way after their own encounters or second-hand experiences from friends and family, but generalizing all men and all bears is dangerous for two entirely different reasons.

Right. This isn't an exercise in what's more dangerous (the answer is man). This is an exercise in probability.

The probability that a randomly chosen man would hurt you is astonishingly low. The chances that a bear would hurt you are several orders of magnitude higher.
 

Mark

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Mark, I'm going to address this one more time. I need you to think. Okay? Your first instinct might be to respond to me, but just - think about it. Let it soak in. Okay?

Have you stopped to think about the reason I jumped down your throat? Why I was coming for you with the shit you were saying? You accused me of talking "for women". Do you really think that I was sitting here on a Saturday night arguing with you alone? Do you think I wasn't showing my wife the conversation? Or that she wasn't involved? Or that she wasn't fucking FUMING at the shit you were saying? Her and many other women ever since this "man vs bear" thing have been stuck arguing with men and being told by men why they're so crazy to pick the bear.

On the same token, do you think I haven’t already had this conversation with my other half? Do you think I haven’t listened to the women in my life? Do you think she didn’t acknowledge the point that you and every woman is making? Of course we did, and of course I listened, and of course I will continue to listen so long as there are people that want to engage back with me.

Do you know what team bear is? Genuinely, do you? You're taking this super literal.

Team Bear is a man accepting a woman's point of view, shutting the fuck up, and letting them talk about what is a very real issue for them. Do you know why the man in the woods is so daunting? It's not about men being generalized, it never has been. It's about the state of mistrust that women RIGHTFULLY have in men. The overwhelming majority of sexual assault cases do not happen in the forest, in the street, or anything like that. They happen with their partner/husband. You know. The one that this woman is supposed to be able to fucking trust more than ANYONE and they do that to her?

I don’t disagree with anything you’re saying here. You’re talking to a guy that has spent the last several years helping the woman he loves overcome the trauma she endured at the hands of her ex, and most recently, the same guy that sat down her little 10 year old crying daughter and explained to her that it was completely unacceptable that her father threw her to the ground in a drunken rage. I apologize to you, and to any woman that feels slighted by my dismissive nature of the comparison between man vs. beast. After the shit I’ve seen men do, they are one and the same, but for totally different reasons. I apologize if the fresh thoughts of a crying 10 year old girl haunt me when I read this thread, and I apologize if my zero tolerance towards those cowards comes across dismissive to women. To be blunt… I’m tired of hearing about it, but women are tired of experiencing it far more than I am tired of hearing about it. I want action, that’s all. I think of women being victimized, I see red.

Most women make a mindful point to not be alone with men in many situations. It's not about generalizing men, it's about realizing that so many women when they have put their TRUST into a man have been violated in such a... gross fucking way.

My other half will not go anywhere in public without me. It took her years to get to a point when she wouldn’t flinch if I reached to hug her. I am uncomfortably aware of what women face, which is why I’m so fed up with it, which is why I don’t need the comparisons to make me realize something needs to change. This goes a lot deeper than me just being a dismissive man, I’m a man with no patience for predators or abusers, and apparently, I don’t know how to express that without coming across dismissive in general.

Did you read the WHO article I shared above? If not, I highly suggest you do.

I did, but it was in the mix of everything else.

You want to talk about accountability - but you came right out of the gate for saying women gotta change their thought process if they would rather have a bear. You've continually been dismissive. One of our own women here literally TOLD YOU that you're being dismissive, and your response was to continue to be DISMISSIVE. Now you're refusing to apologize for what you said because you feel like you were misinterpreted.

Not because women are wrong for thinking that, but because it’s a “from the frying pan to the deep fryer” kind of comparison, in my opinion, and apparently others.

Intent is meaningless, perception is everything.

Correct, and if you perceive what I’m saying as just another big dumb man telling women what to think instead of a big dumb man that’s fed up with other men and wiping women and little girl’s tears because of them, you’re bound to see what I’m saying in a different light than I intend. That’s why I’ve been patiently trying to rework what I’m saying in a way to get through to you, because how you perceived what I said from the start set the tone for how you’d perceive anything else I said and say after that.

You and I always talk about there being a time and place for everything, right? The time and place of this conversation is for men to shut the fuck up, not weigh in, and let the women of our lives tell us about the problems that they have with men.

This is part of where we disagree, because I say that the time to shut up and listen should have been long ago, and that it’s ridiculous that it has escalated to this point without it happening sooner. Women shouldn’t have to keep rehashing this, or presenting it in a different way every time a new way comes up. We should already know better, and the fact that there are men out there that don’t is disgusting. The fact that there are men out there that need to be told to listen to their partners and the women in their lives is disgusting. I don’t think it’s fair to women that they have to continue to relive trauma to teach us, I think it’s time men step the fuck up and start doing something about it.

If after all this - you still can't see this perspective, you still fail to understand; I was wrong about you.

Please, just - think about this dude.

I never refused see this perspective, and it’s not one I’m ignorant of. I just wanted to push past it because it’s another unnecessary theoretical and work to a resolution, which was likely overlooked because some of the things I’ve said may echo the things others have said in different contexts, maybe even guys that were being dismissive of women’s issues. I don’t know, dude, but I’m not the enemy here. If anyone wants to make this world a better place for women, it’s me. If anyone wants to see men pay for the bad shit they do, it’s me. I just think it’s such a sensitive subject, and so many of us decent men are so fed up with the shit that happens that emotions run high trying to come up with a resolution because we’re so damn protective over the women in our lives.

Not once did I intend any disrespect to you, or any woman, with any of my words. If it was seen that way, I do sincerely apologize, but, like I said, and it’s no excuse, it’s a fresh subject for me. I cried like a baby alone after listening to my step-daughter about how her father abusing her made her feel. It broke my fucking heart, and infuriates me anytime I think of it. No little girl deserves to feel that way about her dad. So, when I see people tossing around theoretical scenarios that they’d rather encounter than a man, I don’t wanna hear it. I don’t need to hear it. Reality is much, much worse. I wanna put a stop to it. That’s it. There are guys out there that you’re 100% right about… they need to shut the fuck up and listen to women talk about this. The rest of us? We need to do something about this. That’s all I ever meant, it wasn’t meant to be dismissive.
 

shortkut

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Right. This isn't an exercise in what's more dangerous (the answer is man). This is an exercise in probability.

The probability that a randomly chosen man would hurt you is astonishingly low. The chances that a bear would hurt you are several orders of magnitude higher.
But it isn’t just a random man. It’s a random man in an isolated place. The fact is the actions of a random person are more unpredictable than that of a bear
 

Rachel

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hello GW woman here

I didn't want to post in here at all but--I do want to point out one thing.

The whole point is that we are forced to generalize. We understand not all men are dangerous. But alone in the woods, we don't KNOW you. We don't know you from Adam. We don't know your mindset. I'm not thinking "the probability of this man attacking me is very low."

As to if I would prefer bear versus man, I can't say. I don't know enough about bears. I would be on my guard either way, frankly. Like either option would freak me out.

Okay that's what I wanted to say
 

VashTheStampede

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So I'm playing Mass Effect right now and I just had a conversation with Ashley Williams about why she's such a virulent Space Racist and she had an allegory about how if you're in the woods and a bear attacks, and the only way to live would be to sacrifice your dog to get away, you would do it because the dog isn't a human.

I don't have a point, I just thought it was funny that would come up while this thread is ongoing.

Bears getting a bum rap all over the galaxy
 

shortkut

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Oh right. This.

The whole - it's simple, just hold them accountable! Bit.

If you want to talk about what can be done? This is from the WHO article I posted that evidently a lot of men could benefit from reading.
to mark’s point, what he is suggesting is just part of the solution. People who have spent their whole lives being shielded from the consequences of their actions, begin to believe that there are in fact, no consequences for them. That’s where accountability comes in and how it starts to change things. Obviously by itself it will do next to nothing and real change requires more systemic changes in all the areas of the WHO article
 

Quagmire

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Right. This isn't an exercise in what's more dangerous (the answer is man). This is an exercise in probability.

I agree with this

The probability that a randomly chosen man would hurt you is astonishingly low. The chances that a bear would hurt you are several orders of magnitude higher.

I dont know if it is several magnitudes higher, a lot of factors about the type of bear, has it had a hard time finding food, does it have cubs, etc. But overall they dont look to attack humans unless the human is threatening something (intentionally or unintentionally)
 

Quagmire

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hello GW woman here

I didn't want to post in here at all but--I do want to point out one thing.

The whole point is that we are forced to generalize. We understand not all men are dangerous. But alone in the woods, we don't KNOW you. We don't know you from Adam. We don't know your mindset. I'm not thinking "the probability of this man attacking me is very low."

As to if I would prefer bear versus man, I can't say. I don't know enough about bears. I would be on my guard either way, frankly. Like either option would freak me out.

Okay that's what I wanted to say

Big thing I've seen is you know what you get with a bear, with another person you dont know what you're gonna get.

Bears are without question dangerous, but typically will leave humans alone unless they feel threatened. If a bear and I go off in opposite directions, I feel decently confident the situation has passed though will have a slight guard up. About another person, cant say the same, they can be more cunning and try to lure the other person into a false sense of security by making it look like they went the other direction, and can more easily hide behind trees and follow someone.
 
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Bears are without question dangerous, but typically will leave humans alone unless they feel threatened. If a bear and I go off in opposite directions, I feel decently confident the situation has passed though will have a slight guard up. About another person, cant say the same, they can be more cunning and try to lure the other person into a false sense of security by making it look like they went the other direction, and can more easily hide behind trees and follow someone.

We really need to specify what type of bear.

I'd rather run into Afghanistan naked waving the American flag than have a polar bear encounter fully armed.
 

Dead2009

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Funny you should ask this, because I was just pondering it. I feel like I'm much more likely to be eaten by a mountain lion than a bear. They normally don't attack people, you usually won't even know they're there, but I feel like it's riskier than even a grizzly bear.

Does that make them riskier than people? Hmm, I'm not sure.

I used to live in a place in the woods and a mountain lion would sometimes hang out in the backyard, so I might have a different perception than most people.

I'm trying to think of an animal I would definitely not choose. My first thought was a gator, but I think those only attack if you get close, right? Maybe a hippo.

Everyone is worried about bears and mountain lions and forgetting coming across animals and creatures you dont see until its too late like poisonous insects. Youre probably more likely to get bit by a dangerous spider than you are being spotted by a mountain lion.
 

Gloom-is-good

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Everyone is worried about bears and mountain lions and forgetting coming across animals and creatures you dont see until its too late like poisonous insects. Youre probably more likely to get bit by a dangerous spider than you are being spotted by a mountain lion.
My nightmare is to be walking in a jungle and have some kind of bug/insect burrow under my eyelid 😭
 

Quagmire

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I'm trying to think of an animal I would definitely not choose. My first thought was a gator, but I think those only attack if you get close, right? Maybe a hippo.

Gators I am not sure about, away from water you're probably okay (as okay as one can be)

I know hippos are really dangerous, but I dont know if they're aggressive. Are these kills due to someone getting too close and not knowing how dangerous a hippo is, are they swimming and not knowing a hippo is in there, or does a hippo see a person and go "absolutely not" and charges them?
 
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so all this talk has been about whether we'd choose the man or the bear. i think it's time for a new conversation: what if the man and the bear were fighting?

25590.jpeg
apparently theres a decent chunk of people who think they could take a bear in a fight. let's test that out. i nominate andrew tate
 

shortkut

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Gloom-is-good

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How on earth is anyone going to take on an elephant unarmed and live to tell the tale?
Maybe they think that they can just calm the elephant down and not have to fight them...?

Personally, I would fight NONE of those. I almost didn't make it last month when we found a gecko in our room!
Today as I was getting out of my car, I heard geese in the distance and my brain said "RRUUUUUNNN!"
I might fare ok with a house cat but it depends. What if the cat is massive? If it was my friend's cat, Richard, no way. He can just end me. Luckily he loves me so whenever I'm around he's like "oh human pillow!" but even then it's like "bruh you are so heavy." If it's one of my cats, maaaybee... but it really would have to depend on why they are trying to fight me. If Dealer of Death is really determined, I'm pretty sure he would end me too and I would probably let him because he's so cute lol
 

VashTheStampede

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Quagmire

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YouGov did a proper poll on this issue in the US and UK over the last few days.

In the US, 40% of women selected the man and 31% the bear. In the UK it was similar, 42%-31%.

That said only 12% of Americans and 9% of Brits would pick the bear if it was alongside a woman and not a man.

Do you have any break down on this based on things like age?

I feel like there would be some huge disparities depending on the age
 

Mark

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So, since this is still active, let’s make some glue with that horse…

“Go ask women.”

“This is about how women feel.”

Etcetera.

It’s one thing to disagree with someone. It’s another thing to grossly misrepresent their very clear words in an effort to argue semantics or language and paint them to be a misogynistic piece of shit. It’s another entirely different thing to attempt to do so during what I made clear was not a good time to expect anything less than a visceral reaction towards abusive men, especially when conversations have been had in the past about emotional responses, compassion, and other things in those veins. It’s a double standard when you’re an individual wanting empathy and compassion from others, but not willing to offer it up to others yourself, even after having the gritty reasons detailing why I gave such an explicit response towards abusive men put right here in public in this very thread.

With that said, I have no problem being wrong or admitting when I am. I have no problem apologizing if my words are misunderstood, whether by my own phrasing or someone else’s interpretation. I’ll be the first to admit that I don’t know everything, and the first to admit my life experiences have jaded me, and that my opinions might be different than others because of it. Attacking my character because my opinion doesn’t perfectly align with yours despite the way you’ve been treated with dignity and respect? Not cool.

I try to be a good person to everyone, even people here I’ve never met. Why? It’s the right thing to do. I’ve known too many bad people to be one of them. It’s that simple for me. Not having that reciprocated is irritating, but, I can’t get mad about it. I’d be doing it for the wrong reasons if I expected reciprocity. I just can’t get down with being misrepresented. This isn’t about me, though, so I’ll get back on topic.

I was told to listen to women. Naturally, I’m not gonna pose the question myself. It would be clear I was baiting for a specific response if I did.

So…

IMG_7905.jpeg
IMG_7906.jpegIMG_7907.jpegIMG_7908.jpeg

Here you have a sample of women, ranging from Natalee who is 17 years old to Nancy who is in her 60’s. Only one of these women is a mutual friend of mine. The rest are friends of my girlfriend’s, and don’t know me from Adam. The only common denominator is the fact that they grew up in the Baltimore metropolitan area, with the furthest being a county over.

Anyway…

Can we go back to just thinking I’m a dick and not that I’m out here being misogynistic for sport? I left this thread alone for days, in hopes that cooler heads would prevail, folks would re-read what I said and realize that it was taken out of context, then we’d move on. That hasn’t happened, so I’ve gotta address it the same way I would and HAVE addressed issues that have made other people feel unwelcome here.
 

shortkut

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So, since this is still active, let’s make some glue with that horse…

“Go ask women.”

“This is about how women feel.”

Etcetera.

It’s one thing to disagree with someone. It’s another thing to grossly misrepresent their very clear words in an effort to argue semantics or language and paint them to be a misogynistic piece of shit. It’s another entirely different thing to attempt to do so during what I made clear was not a good time to expect anything less than a visceral reaction towards abusive men, especially when conversations have been had in the past about emotional responses, compassion, and other things in those veins. It’s a double standard when you’re an individual wanting empathy and compassion from others, but not willing to offer it up to others yourself, even after having the gritty reasons detailing why I gave such an explicit response towards abusive men put right here in public in this very thread.

With that said, I have no problem being wrong or admitting when I am. I have no problem apologizing if my words are misunderstood, whether by my own phrasing or someone else’s interpretation. I’ll be the first to admit that I don’t know everything, and the first to admit my life experiences have jaded me, and that my opinions might be different than others because of it. Attacking my character because my opinion doesn’t perfectly align with yours despite the way you’ve been treated with dignity and respect? Not cool.

I try to be a good person to everyone, even people here I’ve never met. Why? It’s the right thing to do. I’ve known too many bad people to be one of them. It’s that simple for me. Not having that reciprocated is irritating, but, I can’t get mad about it. I’d be doing it for the wrong reasons if I expected reciprocity. I just can’t get down with being misrepresented. This isn’t about me, though, so I’ll get back on topic.

I was told to listen to women. Naturally, I’m not gonna pose the question myself. It would be clear I was baiting for a specific response if I did.

So…

View attachment 15789
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Here you have a sample of women, ranging from Natalee who is 17 years old to Nancy who is in her 60’s. Only one of these women is a mutual friend of mine. The rest are friends of my girlfriend’s, and don’t know me from Adam. The only common denominator is the fact that they grew up in the Baltimore metropolitan area, with the furthest being a county over.

Anyway…

Can we go back to just thinking I’m a dick and not that I’m out here being misogynistic for sport? I left this thread alone for days, in hopes that cooler heads would prevail, folks would re-read what I said and realize that it was taken out of context, then we’d move on. That hasn’t happened, so I’ve gotta address it the same way I would and HAVE addressed issues that have made other people feel unwelcome here.
It’s essentially prisoner’s dilemma question. Picking a man could give you the best or worst options, picking a best gives you the known option
 

Mark

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It’s essentially prisoner’s dilemma question. Picking a man could give you the best or worst options, picking a best gives you the known option

I get it, lesser of the two evils and all, but it’s perspective-based at best. You’re gonna have people with no experience with bears choose man, and vice-versa for people with experience with bad men. Neither makes you “wrong”, but that’s because of your perspective, not your position… which was one of the overarching points I made throughout the thread. As someone with plenty of experience with dangerous men and minimal experience with wild animals, I made my observations and provided a realistic assessment that wasn’t intended any derogatory way, but were based purely off of risk potential. I don’t think it warranted the hostility it received, especially when the first paragraph was worded as clearly as it was.
 
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Honestly the only thing I took away from that was those few women who grew up in Baltimore have an irrational fear of something they don't understand - bears.

I don't think it's a matter of cooler heads prevailing, I think people have just moved on.
If for the best we move on from the subject, otherwise it's one of those discussions that'll keep going in circles. I'm willing to agree to disagree with people choosing man over bear based on my past experiences of growing up in an environment where toxic masculinity was rampant.
 
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