Would you rather run into a bear or random man in the woods?

[TD]

Dude. You are still literally making it about you and how you feel, as a man.

Come on.

This whole talk is supposed to be about how women feel.

 

[MC74]

b) Do you think the solution is that men need to save women from this? Women should not have to rely on a man showing up at just the right time to feel safe. For every one you are able to help, many, many others, are unhelped. Women need to feel safe around men, they don't need the man to come in and save the day like they're some Disney movie princess.

Well, I believe the first step towards any amount of progress is to start holding shitheads accountable for their actions. Far too often, this kind of behavior is tolerated, seen as natural because it's just "boys being boys", but what it really is is toxic, and when you don't do anything to discourage that kind of behavior, then it festers and becomes deeply rooted within the culture.

We need to make it clear it's not acceptable. Hence the reason I mentioned hockey culture earlier. Nothing was done about that and we just keep hearing more & more disturbing shit happening behind the scenes, and I'd say that's only the tip of the iceberg. Who knows what other shit happened behind the scenes we're not privy of.

 

[TD]

One in three women, fellas.
One in three.

According to the World Health Organization, one in three women – around 736 million globally – will have experienced sexual or physical violence by an intimate partner or sexual violence from a non-partner in their lifetime. This figure has largely remained unchanged over the past decade.

Devastatingly pervasive: 1 in 3 women globally experience violence

Violence against women remains devastatingly pervasive and starts alarmingly young, shows new data from WHO and partners.

www.who.int

 

[Mark]

You know what women want to be able to feel safe to men?

They want to be listened to, they want you to ask questions, they want you to care about their perspective.

They don't want to be told how to solve a problem that you don't know shit about when it comes to how they feel.

This conversation with women should really be going down like this:

Man: "Would you rather be in the woods with a bear or a woman?"
Woman: "Bear"
Man: "Why do you feel like that?"
Woman: Explains why
Man: "Is there anything I can do to help with the way you feel?"

Instead they're met with this constant barrage of being told what the solution is after years and years - in a country like America where quite frankly so much shit is going the opposite direction. And you think holding people accountable is going to make women suddenly feel like they can trust men more and they aren't going to be raped?

Fucking come on dude. Have this conversation with more women. It will help. I promise.

Dude, the more you go on, the more it comes across like you’re having this conversation for women. You don’t need to mansplain to me how women feel about being raped and sexually assaulted, I’ve had plenty of women cover the subject with me themselves. Do you think I just woke up one day with the belief that pedophiles, rapists, and any other variation of sexual predator should be flat out killed or incarcerated? No, I got that way after seeing what I’ve seen, having bad shit happen to friends, protecting the ones I love.

There’s a reason why I say it starts with how we carry ourselves as men, how we raise our sons. There’s a reason why I say we have to force accountability and consequences on those men the same way they forced themselves upon those women.

I’ve already said numerous times that it’ll never bring that number to absolute zero. I’ve already said it’ll take work to put a stop to this kind of predatory behavior some men exhibit. I don’t know what else you want from me, but you’re barking up the wrong tree if you think you’ll stop sexual predators by coming down on how guys like me view them and how to deal with them, because we’re a lot closer to a solution than you are… and most importantly, we’re on the same team, the team that wants to make this world safer for women. You should most certainly focus this energy on addressing those clowns you see objectifying women, or treating them like property, or a conquest. You wanna see a change? Try that and see how it works. If enough people do, then the world will become a dangerous place for sexual predators instead of women, and I’m sure everyone would be much happier with that.

 

[TD]

Dude, the more you go on, the more it comes across like you’re having this conversation for women.

I mean I've talked to over two dozen women about this over the last 4-5 days and I get where they're coming from. What I'm saying is pretty much what they've communicated to me.

You know why I have to be the voice for so many of them? Because of misogynistic behaviour where men won't even listen to them to begin with and that's already been proven in this very thread.

Many of you very clearly just don't fucking get it.

 

[TD]

You don’t need to mansplain to me how women feel about being raped and sexually assaulted

When one of your opening statements was blaming this shit on women themselves, then yes - you need to be "mansplain"'d to.

 

[TD]

Well, I believe the first step towards any amount of progress is to start holding shitheads accountable for their actions. Far too often, this kind of behavior is tolerated, seen as natural because it's just "boys being boys", but what it really is is toxic, and when you don't do anything to discourage that kind of behavior, then it festers and becomes deeply rooted within the culture.

We need to make it clear it's not acceptable. Hence the reason I mentioned hockey culture earlier. Nothing was done about that and we just keep hearing more & more disturbing shit happening behind the scenes, and I'd say that's only the tip of the iceberg. Who knows what other shit happened behind the scenes we're not privy of.

Hockey culture is such a small fraction of this.

You got women who are regularly raped by their own fucking partners; it goes way beyond accountability.

It goes down the rabbit hole of men treating women like property, not people.

 

[Mark]

I mean I've talked to over two dozen women about this over the last 4-5 days and I get where they're coming from. What I'm saying is pretty much what they've communicated to me.

You know why I have to be the voice for so many of them? Because of misogynistic behaviour where men won't even listen to them to begin with and that's already been proven in this very thread.

Many of you very clearly just don't fucking get it.

Just stop with the numbers game, dude. You can talk to one rape survivor or a hundred and none of them are gonna tell you that they rank the experience an 11/10 and would definitely recommend it to a friend. Playing the “I know more rape victims than you, I know better…” angle is weak, it’s a disservice to them.

I’ve talked to women. I’ll continue to talk to women. I’ll listen to what any woman has to say on the subject for as long as she’d like. What I won’t do is pussyfoot around the issue that some men are pieces of shit, they need to be identified and ostracized from our society until we get to a point where we collectively as a society have effectively eliminated those kind of people. What I won’t do is accept accountability for another man’s actions, or, inactions. I treat people with dignity and respect. I am not going to be categorized with people who don’t, I have too much self-respect for that, and you should, too. You’re a good man, with good intentions, you shouldn’t let people shit on you because of people with the same genitals that do bad shit to people with the other set of genitals. We, as men, owe it to the women in our lives to separate ourself from those “men”, and to deal with them appropriately… not give them a slap on the wrist or blame their hormones.

 

[TD]

lol Now you're trying to gaslight me as if I'm the one disservicing them when you literally blamed women for feeling like that about men?

Get off your fucking high horse. I'm done here and we're done.

 

[Mark]

When one of your opening statements was blaming this shit on women themselves, then yes - you need to be "mansplain"'d to.

Go ahead, glaze over the part where I said that I’d have said the same thing to you if you went into the woods unprepared, because that doesn’t fit the narrative you’re trying to fabricate.

lol Now you're trying to gaslight me as if I'm the one disservicing them when you literally blamed women for feeling like that about men?

Get off your fucking high horse. I'm done here and we're done.

See above.

 

[TD]

Not being able to block admins feels like an abuse of forum power but I digress.

 

[Mark]

Not being able to block admins feels like an abuse of forum power but I digress.

Let’s go over a chain of events, then.

First you wanted to act like I’m out of touch and I should go talk to some women.

When I corrected you and informed you that I have, and even went as far as letting some read this entire thread, your posts and all, suddenly you knew more rape victims than me.

When I mentioned intervening in instances of assault, then you intervened in multiples.

You’ve turned this into “who’s the whitest knight?” instead of “we should do something about these piece of shit rapists”, and now you’re wanting to block me? Make this make sense to me. I haven’t been disrespectful to women, to you, or to the totality of men. I’ve singled out the offenders, and the ones that are complacent in allowing them to exist among us. I’ve been disrespectful towards predators, people unworthy of respect.

 

[TD]

What part of I'm done don't you understand?

Don't quote me.
Don't tag me.
Don't DM me.

I don't associate with your type.

 

[Kat]

That's a fair point. If a woman was alone in the woods and saw both a bear and a man, I don't think she would run to the bear for help, though.

No, I wouldn't. I also would not run to the man for help. I'm getting the fuck out of there and hoping they distract each other from me.

Men can kidnap, torture, rape, etc over long periods of time. I get where she's coming from, I just don't think that's a realistic occurrence for like 99.9999% of men.

That number is waaay too high. You really think only one out of a million men would hurt a woman?

For me personally, the percentage of men I've dated who eventually physically or sexually assaulted me in some way is at least 10%. Maybe even 20%.

I'm specifying men I dated because I avoid being truly alone with guys I don't know. There's not much reason for it, so I'm not sure what the percentage is if you include strangers I crossed paths with once in a remote area. I'm excluding "alone in a public place where anybody else could appear at any time" because that's a much riskier situation to attack somebody.

You may think being alone on the street is riskier than alone in an apartment, but in my experience, it is not.

I encounter solo women when hiking all the time. In this case, she's alone in the forest with a stranger. When I picture being alone in the forest with a man, I think of like a hiking trail. I'm not picturing a man leering at me from behind some trees in a forest. If that's the scenario, give me the fuckin bear because that's creepy as shit.

Yeah, that's why I specified I'm assuming the question is alone in the back country, not on a well-traveled hiking trail. I agree running into a random guy on a hiking trail is generally fine, but that's not being alone in the woods.

One time I was on a hike with a (female) friend of mine, and it had a sharp difficulty jump, so most people abandoned it quickly. When we got to the end, there was a dude by himself kinda tucked behind a corner. It did freak us out a bit and we "joked" about him being a serial killer.

Probably nothing would've happened even if I were alone, but I'm glad we were together.

It’s sad that you’ve found yourself in that situation enough times to use the word “men”, but ignoring the semantics… the “men” you’ve had to fight aren’t men at all. They’re boys trapped in the body of an adult that do not have any self-respect, let alone any respect for others, let alone respect to what they perceive to be an inferior woman.

They are men. They are male humans that are over 18 years old. If you say to me "you meet a random man in the woods", it could be one of those assholes or somebody else like them.

At this point, though, we’re essentially creating an unconquerable scenario. We’re stepping beyond the black and white discussion of “man vs. bear” and aligning several of the worst possible case variables you could ask for in a situation like that to produce the worst possible outcome. Naturally, I would lose in a scenario like that, as would anyone else cocky enough to think otherwise. That’s part of the point people debating this are making, and why it’s looked at as rage bait like @Smacktard said and @The Flame alluded to.

It's not a worst case scenario or unconquerable. I'm giving you the scenario as I see it for myself. The man who can easily overpower you will likely not choose to do it. The point is he could, because if you put me alone with a random man, that's the situation for me. I'm not weighing "am I more likely to win a fight with a man or a bear?" I don't expect to win either. Repeated personal experience tells me I do not stand a chance. My only consideration is "is the man or bear more likely to want to do me harm?" And I feel like "man" is easily the winner, so I'll take the bear.

You still use a lighter even though fire can burn, right? You still use electricity even though it’ll only take less than one ampere to stop your heart, right? Risk assessment and risk mitigation never reach absolute zero. There will always be variables that create outliers.

What does that matter? The question isn't "would you ever risk encountering a man without other people around?" It's choosing between a man and a bear. A bear will definitely not rape me, and a man might. So I choose bear.

what are you even doing in the woods to begin with to where this is a scenario that’s a possibility? Why would ANYONE, male or female, place themselves in such a position without weighing the pros and cons of it? I’m not saying that if you’re lost in the woods, go get raped and have fun, but… what the hell was going on in this theoretical woman’s mind where she thought it was okay to wander off into the wilderness?

It's completely normal for people to be in the woods. I personally wouldn't go by myself, I'm a klutz and would probably hurt myself, but plenty of people do it. People do lots of somewhat risky things for fun. Would you say the same thing about somebody who skis?

People that regularly experience danger, and not hypothetically, tend to have a different outlook towards dangerous scenarios. It’s a very analytical process, there’s more time spend observing than theorizing.

I actually think this is a big part of why men and women see this so differently. Men often have experienced scuffling with another man and it turned out fine, or maybe they've never needed to but imagine they could hold their own. Women are much more likely to have tried to fight a man and been unable to stop him from attacking her.

I'm sure some women can kick men's asses no problem, but for me personally, I know there's no way.

But I still think it's misandrist to paint all men is dangerous because SOME men are bad men.

Nobody said all men are dangerous. A random man is dangerous because it's not stated if he's violent or not, and the odds that he is are high enough that the situation is concerning.

It's not a moral judgement against men in general. It's just an acknowledgement of reality that's required for me to keep myself safe.

Based on all this, I think there are three things causing the big divide here:
1. Men underestimating how helpless most women feel about defending themselves against men.
2. Men underestimating how likely a man is to attack a woman when there is no chance of anybody else intervening, and how that's different from passing someone in a quiet street.
3. Men and women disagreeing on how dangerous bears are.

 

[Quagmire]

That number is waaay too high. You really think only one out of a million men would hurt a woman?

For me personally, the percentage of men I've dated who eventually physically or sexually assaulted me in some way is at least 10%. Maybe even 20%.

I know at least 8 women who have experienced this or worse, and those are just the ones comfortable enough to share that with me

. I'm not weighing "am I more likely to win a fight with a man or a bear?" I don't expect to win either. Repeated personal experience tells me I do not stand a chance. My only consideration is "is the man or bear more likely to want to do me harm?" And I feel like "man" is easily the winner, so I'll take the bear.

Yep, not sure how this gets lost so much, its not a who do you want to fight.

I actually think this is a big part of why men and women see this so differently. Men often have experienced scuffling with another man and it turned out fine, or maybe they've never needed to but imagine they could hold their own. Women are much more likely to have tried to fight a man and been unable to stop him from attacking her.

I've always known to some extent at just how easy it is for a man to overpower a woman, but play wrestling with my wife or past partners, I can easily pin them down and that is only using a fraction of my strength. Sure they are holding back a little, but not nearly as much as I am

Nobody said all men are dangerous. A random man is dangerous because it's not stated if he's violent or not, and the odds that he is are high enough that the situation is concerning.

It's starting to sound like the All Lives Matter thing which was to devalue the Black Lives Matter movement. No one ever said Black Lives were more important than anyone else's

Based on all this, I think there are three things causing the big divide here:
1. Men underestimating how helpless most women feel about defending themselves against men.
2. Men underestimating how likely a man is to attack a woman when there is no chance of anybody else intervening, and how that's different from passing someone in a quiet street.
3. Men and women disagreeing on how dangerous bears are.

I think some Men also take this as some personal attack too, which is what is getting them triggered, they feel threatened by someone potentially not choosing them

 

[Kat]

@Mark you've said a lot about how holding men accountable and all that would improve things so women feel safer (which I agree with, though that's easier said than done). However, that's not currently the world we live in.

Given that you've said you've helped multiple women escape violence from men in locations where it was possible for such an attack to be thwarted, do you understand why women would not choose to be alone with a man in the woods? Or do you still think that's crazy and inherently flawed?

 

[Benzine]

i choose the man because i can have more of a chance of winning if the bear or man don't have my best interests at heart. there's many men i could beat off, but not many bears.

 

[Joseph Snapple]

tbh when i heard about this i was very confused to learn it started a whole big fucking thing just because the answer seemed so obvious simply based on "only one of these two is something that belongs in the middle of the woods"

 

[Mark]

@Mark you've said a lot about how holding men accountable and all that would improve things so women feel safer (which I agree with, though that's easier said than done). However, that's not currently the world we live in.

Given that you've said you've helped multiple women escape violence from men in locations where it was possible for such an attack to be thwarted, do you understand why women would not choose to be alone with a man in the woods? Or do you still think that's crazy and inherently flawed?

It doesn’t really matter what I think, because I’ve never been a victim of a sexual assault. All I’ve ever experienced were other acts of violence and dangerous situations with other men, some bigger and stronger than me, and some not. From where I’m sitting, and from where I’ve been sitting this entire time… I don’t see theoretical situations. I see a very real problem women face, and it requires a solution. Is it a solution that seems easier said than done? Absolutely. No decision worth making like that is ever easy, but it’s what must be done to protect people. Do I think it’s crazy that a woman would feel safer with a bear? Absolutely. That’s the entire point of the exercise, to show with slight exaggeration the threat women face daily and to put it in perspective. What I don’t understand is the disconnect between my proposed solutions and how I’m suddenly the bad guy because of how I feel this issue needs to be addressed. If it doesn’t work, then it was an effort. If it does? More women don’t become victims. I just wish someone could help me understand what’s wrong about what I’m suggesting happen to these individuals, and how we can hopefully teach younger generations to do better. It’s completely lost on me how my suggestions are perceived the way that they are, because I’ve gotten nothing but agreement from the women that know me personally. How women that know me can totally agree with every word I’ve said about accountability, both for the men committing these crimes and the theoretical woman unprepared in the woods, and yet it flies right over the heads of men like I’m speaking a foreign language because I’m not parroting the same demeaning language about all men that they are is wild to me.

I’ve been a go-to choice for help, advice, anything, for the women I know for decades. Not once has any of them ever told me any of this shit about my views being problematic. If anything, they’ve thanked me for not giving the same tired “oh, that sucks, I’m sorry you had to go through that, men are scum” speech and leveling with them about how bastards raise bastards, and how we’ve gotta do SOMETHING to change the way boys treat girls, and that’ll spread to how men treat women. Hearing contrary, especially from men, is just blowing my mind, but it’s not surprising… because of accountability. Hearing contrary from you hits a little different… you’re a woman, in an environment where you can run into a bear (I think? Are they in Oregon?), a prior victim, etc. Instinctively, I attribute that to Baltimore girls not knowing shit about bears and woods, and only knowing about bad dudes. I think that’s the fairest assessment for that, don’t you? Under that assumption, it’s safe to say it makes sense to me why you’d try your luck with the bear. Although, I still wouldn’t recommend it, I do get it, and I wish you didn’t feel that way.

 

[MC74]

Hockey culture is such a small fraction of this.

You got women who are regularly raped by their own fucking partners; it goes way beyond accountability.

It goes down the rabbit hole of men treating women like property, not people.

Sadly, it's an issue that is deeply rooted within our own culture, and one that doesn't seem to be going away anytime soon. Yes, you need to hold people accountable and that would be a step towards progress, but as it stands, we've got a long way to go, and even then, it's still something that can easily be rolled back just like the abortion rights were.

It doesn't take much to set the clock back. The truly scary part about that is, for the amount of damage that can potentially be done in such a short amount of time, it can easily take decades to get back on the right track. That's the exact situation we are in right now with the current political landscape. So yes, putting things forward in motion to protect women is a lot easier said than done, especially when the majority of the conservative base is hell-bent on rolling back women's rights.

In my brutally honest opinion, I seriously doubt it gets solved anytime soon. Definitely not in our lifetime.

 

[shortkut]

there's many men i could beat off,

 

[Kat]

Do I think it’s crazy that a woman would feel safer with a bear? Absolutely. That’s the entire point of the exercise, to show with slight exaggeration the threat women face daily and to put it in perspective.

It's not an exaggeration at all. Maybe some women are picking bear to be snide or insult men, but I 100% genuinely would take a random bear over a random man, and I bet many other women are too. It feels a bit dismissive when you say stuff like this.

What I don’t understand is the disconnect between my proposed solutions and how I’m suddenly the bad guy because of how I feel this issue needs to be addressed

It doesn't make you a bad guy IMO. I don't understand how you can acknowledge it's such a big problem while also dismissing the idea that a woman would feel safer alone with a bear than a man. I think if your message was more "wow, it's awful women feel that way. Here's an idea of what we can do to improve things" and less "women are ridiculous for choosing a bear, we just need to hold men accountable, problem solved", you'd get a different response.

Also, your "solution" is a bit like suggesting if we all stopped using fossil fuels, then climate change would be much less of a problem. Sure, it's true, and championing for individuals to do that is better than nothing, but it's not actually going to solve the problem. Acknowledging you cannot actually solve it and it's a thing women have to deal with would be appreciated.

the theoretical woman unprepared in the woods

Why are you assuming she's unprepared? Because otherwise she'd have bear spray and neither would be an issue? I'd still choose the bear in that case.

How women that know me can totally agree with every word I’ve said about accountability, both for the men committing these crimes and the theoretical woman unprepared in the woods, and yet it flies right over the heads of men like I’m speaking a foreign language because I’m not parroting the same demeaning language about all men that they are is wild to me.

Who here has been using any demeaning language about all men? I haven't seen any of that. There's some towards men who assault others, and some towards men who react poorly to this question, but none towards all men generally that I've seen.

 

[Mark]

It's not an exaggeration at all. Maybe some women are picking bear to be snide or insult men, but I 100% genuinely would take a random bear over a random man, and I bet many other women are too. It feels a bit dismissive when you say stuff like this.

So you’re saying the whole point of using an example of being in the woods with an animal the size of a bear and with the capabilities of a bear isn’t to signify with a certain level of dramatic effect the risks a woman would sooner take over being in the same woods with a man? That’s all I meant.

It doesn't make you a bad guy IMO. I don't understand how you can acknowledge it's such a big problem while also dismissing the idea that a woman would feel safer alone with a bear than a man. I think if your message was more "wow, it's awful women feel that way. Here's an idea of what we can do to improve things" and less "women are ridiculous for choosing a bear, we just need to hold men accountable, problem solved", you'd get a different response.

I don’t recall saying that I think women are ridiculous for thinking that, if anything, I’d sooner think the idea of creating theoretical scenarios over addressing the root issue is ridiculous. I don’t think women need these scenarios to tell people that sexual assault is bad, I think men need to just do better. The fact that women feel that they have to provide these scenarios to men, though, is ridiculous, because it should have never gotten to the point where it’s felt that it needs to be explained that way. It should be common sense that sexual assault is bad, the fact that it isn’t is ridiculous.

Also, your "solution" is a bit like suggesting if we all stopped using fossil fuels, then climate change would be much less of a problem. Sure, it's true, and championing for individuals to do that is better than nothing, but it's not actually going to solve the problem. Acknowledging you cannot actually solve it and it's a thing women have to deal with would be appreciated.

Which is why I attacked the alternative… just sitting around theorizing and talking about it, or getting mad at guys like me who want to do more than just talk about it. As I’ve said numerous times, I recognize that it’s not an immediate solution or an overnight cure to a systemic issue that has gone on for centuries, but it’s something. It isn’t attacking my fellow man because of something he’s never done and despises himself. It isn’t trying to find the right way to illustrate the severity of the issue to people. It’s attacking the issue head-on… the ones committing these heinous acts against women.

Why are you assuming she's unprepared? Because otherwise she'd have bear spray and neither would be an issue? I'd still choose the bear in that case.

Well, the entire premise of the story seems to be centered around whether or not she’d be more prepared to encounter a male or a bear, so I just assume she’s unprepared for either? If I were in her shoes, I’d be spooked if I saw a bear in the woods, and I’d be just as spooked if I thought I was alone and saw some random person… male or female.

Who here has been using any demeaning language about all men? I haven't seen any of that. There's some towards men who assault others, and some towards men who react poorly to this question, but none towards all men generally that I've seen.

I’m not the only individual that picked up on it, and I’m not the only one that said something about it being wrong to generalize men because it removes accountability from the perpetrators and places it on their genitals instead. Being, obviously, the most vocal of them, I will speak for myself when I say it’s disheartening to hear another good man generalize all of us the way I’ve seen in this thread. Personally, I’ve been a good man to people, even those that didn’t necessarily deserve it, because that’s just who I am. I’ve helped people out when they needed it, because that’s just who I am. I’m bringing it up now, for context, but I don’t brag about it, and I don’t wave it around like I’m superior to anyone. To have someone criticize my opinion on how to handle those assholes that do that kind of unforgivable shit to women, and then generalize me with them as if I wouldn’t give my life to save someone in that kind of situation when I’ve willfully thrown myself into some fucked up scenarios where I could have died to save a perfect stranger is insulting to say the least. I can deal with being insulted, though, I have my big boy pants on. What I can’t deal with is another excuse passing the buck to “men being men” when I know that I am, that many other men are, and that the men saying it are all better than those monsters who prey on people and don’t deserve to be lumped in with them. I will always demand accountability for sexual predators, I will always advocate for justice for the victims of those crimes, and I will always loudly voice my disapproval of those men. I can’t change the world, but goddamnit, I can refuse to compromise my values and do my part to keep the people around me safe while refusing to acknowledge that all men should be categorized together as one, with the sexual predators, child abusers, and all the other disgusting fucks out there. They don’t represent me or what I stand for. You know how it feels to be generalized based on your gender, so you don’t have to try hard to imagine what it’s like to be someone in my position saying “whoa, that ain’t me, that might be some of y’all, but that certainly ain’t me.”

 

[VashTheStampede]

I'm brick

 

[Smacktard]

I've seen enough. I'm team bear.

 

[Mark]

I’ve toyed around with the idea of reaching out to people privately, because I’m trying to wrap my brain around why my words are being interpreted the way they are, but I’ve decided against it, and instead opted to address it publicly since I got into this publicly. I’ve always said, and I’ll always admit when I’m wrong. However, I can’t admit that I’m wrong in this situation when I feel like my words are being misunderstood.

First and foremost, I’m not team “man” or team “bear”. I’m team “this shit has gone on long enough, and sitting around talking about it has done nothing.”

Secondly, I don’t think women are stupid for saying they’re safer with a bear. I think it’s stupid that they’ve had to break it down into this kind of scenario in order to get men to talk about their behavior.

Thirdly, I don’t disagree with anyone’s rationality for choosing a bear. It’s sad that people feel that way, another point I made that was greatly overlooked.

Finally… the overarching point that I keep circling back to, accountability, isn’t a solution for every scenario and isn’t going to keep every woman safe, but it’s a start. I’m not sitting here and acting like I’ve solved world peace because I have an idea like some say, but what’s the realistic alternative to this that isn’t raising our boys to be better men that don’t do this kind of shit and holding them accountable when they do? I’m a problem solver by nature, and I have yet to see anyone offer a solution to how we stop men from acting like this. All I’ve seen is people shitting on men instead of singling out the offenders, and picking apart my proposed solution, which, is just an idea, by the way… it’s not like any of us have any real power.

What is wrong with starting with the younger generation, raising them to be respectful men, teaching them that it’s wrong, and working to eliminate the issues women face that way? I’ve seen plenty of people react negatively, I’ve seen plenty of people comment negatively, but I’ve yet to see any tangible “instead, why don’t we do this?”

Maybe there’s a piece I’m missing, I’ll admit it, but I’ve combed through this thread, my other half and my friend have combed through this thread and the only conclusion we’ve been able to come up with is “what’s the other option? Keep creating more and more dangerous scenarios for comparisons and hope that it clicks that some men need to straighten up? Keep talking about it and hope one day someone gets the memo? Keep generalizing men and let the good ones take shit for the bad ones because diplomacy is easier than singling out individual perpetrators?”

I’ve even asked myself… is it a setting thing? Could I just have zero faith in the justice system and have a “we gotta do this ourselves, then” attitude? I’ve seen countless people get away with fucked up sexual crimes here, so that could be part of it… a zero tolerance approach because I’ve seen too much. That couldn’t be it, there are other members here that have seen it, too, and they’re not at that point where they agree with my suggestion.

Then, I asked myself, could it be because my solution is too complicated or unrealistic? @Kat touched on it being unrealistic, and she’s not wrong for feeling that way, so do I. My problem is… just throwing my hands up and admitting defeat is a problem, clearly, as evidenced by this thread. Am I at fault for wanting to live in a world where we raise our kids to treat people better, though? I’d hope not. Should I “admit defeat” and say I don’t have a solution for this? Probably, but that’s not in my nature either. Everyone else can resign themselves to think that this is just the way it is, and that’s part of the problem, because that line of thought perpetuates whatever came before it. I can’t do that, though, because I want to see a solution where women are safe from predators and where predators aren’t safe to carry out their acts.

So, without laying the whole “you need to educate yourself” speech on me, can someone please explain to me what’s so wrong about what I’m saying? In a whole bunch of words, I have effectively only said “this is wrong, we need to do something about this, I propose we start here, women shouldn’t have to manufacture these scenarios to illustrate to men how they feel around us, please don’t play with bears either, ladies”.

Some of you may look at me and see a white male oozing with privilege. I don’t care what you see, there are people that look at me and see a brother, a father, a step-father, an uncle, a significant other. They are the people I’m saying this for, the people I use my “privilege” to protect from people that use their “privilege” to exploit. I’m not being combative with any of you, and I’ve certainly felt no need to be disrespectful to any of you. I’m genuinely trying to figure this shit out, because this isn’t just an internet forum discussion for me, there’s much more at stake, like the lives and safety of my loved ones. If my solution is wrong, or my ethics on this matter are skewed because of all the bad shit I’ve seen, I wanna know.

 

[TD]

Mark, I'm going to address this one more time. I need you to think. Okay? Your first instinct might be to respond to me, but just - think about it. Let it soak in. Okay?

Have you stopped to think about the reason I jumped down your throat? Why I was coming for you with the shit you were saying? You accused me of talking "for women". Do you really think that I was sitting here on a Saturday night arguing with you alone? Do you think I wasn't showing my wife the conversation? Or that she wasn't involved? Or that she wasn't fucking FUMING at the shit you were saying? Her and many other women ever since this "man vs bear" thing have been stuck arguing with men and being told by men why they're so crazy to pick the bear.

Do you know what team bear is? Genuinely, do you? You're taking this super literal.

Team Bear is a man accepting a woman's point of view, shutting the fuck up, and letting them talk about what is a very real issue for them. Do you know why the man in the woods is so daunting? It's not about men being generalized, it never has been. It's about the state of mistrust that women RIGHTFULLY have in men. The overwhelming majority of sexual assault cases do not happen in the forest, in the street, or anything like that. They happen with their partner/husband. You know. The one that this woman is supposed to be able to fucking trust more than ANYONE and they do that to her?

Most women make a mindful point to not be alone with men in many situations. It's not about generalizing men, it's about realizing that so many women when they have put their TRUST into a man have been violated in such a... gross fucking way.

Did you read the WHO article I shared above? If not, I highly suggest you do.

You want to talk about accountability - but you came right out of the gate for saying women gotta change their thought process if they would rather have a bear. You've continually been dismissive. One of our own women here literally TOLD YOU that you're being dismissive, and your response was to continue to be DISMISSIVE. Now you're refusing to apologize for what you said because you feel like you were misinterpreted.

Intent is meaningless, perception is everything.

You and I always talk about there being a time and place for everything, right? The time and place of this conversation is for men to shut the fuck up, not weigh in, and let the women of our lives tell us about the problems that they have with men.

If after all this - you still can't see this perspective, you still fail to understand; I was wrong about you.

Please, just - think about this dude.

 

[shortkut]

My hot take on this thread: too many words

TD and Mark were having different conversations with each other
- one conversation is just to listen and understand that people feel a certain way
- the other conversation was how can we try to prevent situations where people need to feel that way

The posts on both sides were very verbose. Both conversations interest on the manbearpig topic many times, so it is easy to see how it would appear to be the same conversation.

In conclusion

 

[TD]

the other conversation was how can we try to prevent situations where people need to feel that way

Oh right. This.

The whole - it's simple, just hold them accountable! Bit.

If you want to talk about what can be done? This is from the WHO article I posted that evidently a lot of men could benefit from reading.

Preventing violence requires addressing systemic economic and social inequalities, ensuring access to education and safe work, and changing discriminatory gender norms and institutions. Successful interventions also include strategies that ensure essential services are available and accessible to survivors, that support women’s organisations, challenge inequitable social norms, reform discriminatory laws and strengthen legal responses, among others.

“To address violence against women, there’s an urgent need to reduce stigma around this issue, train health professionals to interview survivors with compassion, and dismantle the foundations of gender inequality,” said Dr Claudia Garcia-Moreno of WHO. “Interventions with adolescents and young people to foster gender equality and gender-equitable attitudes are also vital.”

Countries should honour their commitments to increased and strong political will and leadership to tackle violence against women in all its forms, through:

Sound gender transformative policies, from policies around childcare to equal pay, and laws that support gender equality,
A strengthened health system response that ensures access to survivor-centred care and referral to other services as needed,
School and educational interventions to challenge discriminatory attitudes and beliefs, including comprehensive sexuality education,
Targeted investment in sustainable and effective evidence-based prevention strategies at local, national, regional and global levels, and
Strengthening data collection and investing in high quality surveys on violence against women and improving measurement of the different forms of violence experienced by women, including those who are most marginalized.

 

[Zell 17]

Realistically, it’s a loaded question. If some woman thinks walking into the woods and running into a bear is safer than any dude, she needs to reevaluate her thought process. I get the risk of running into the wrong dude, but there’s no such thing as the right bear you’d want to encounter.

Now, I’m sure someone might come along and point out a red panda or a docile bear, but no one’s going to be threatened by a red panda standing up because how they square up on you is fucking adorable, and you’re a fool if you think that docile bear doesn’t have the potential to rip your face off if it feels like it… just like a man.

I get the apprehension towards certain men, and why women feel this way after their own encounters or second-hand experiences from friends and family, but generalizing all men and all bears is dangerous for two entirely different reasons.

Right. This isn't an exercise in what's more dangerous (the answer is man). This is an exercise in probability.

The probability that a randomly chosen man would hurt you is astonishingly low. The chances that a bear would hurt you are several orders of magnitude higher.

 

[MC74]

The article nails everything on the head on what needs to be done to bring us on the right track to tackle these issues. The real challenge is trying to implement them (and keeping them in place IF successfully passed through). You can never discount the possibility of these decisions being reversed by morons in office.

 

[Mark]

Mark, I'm going to address this one more time. I need you to think. Okay? Your first instinct might be to respond to me, but just - think about it. Let it soak in. Okay?

Have you stopped to think about the reason I jumped down your throat? Why I was coming for you with the shit you were saying? You accused me of talking "for women". Do you really think that I was sitting here on a Saturday night arguing with you alone? Do you think I wasn't showing my wife the conversation? Or that she wasn't involved? Or that she wasn't fucking FUMING at the shit you were saying? Her and many other women ever since this "man vs bear" thing have been stuck arguing with men and being told by men why they're so crazy to pick the bear.

On the same token, do you think I haven’t already had this conversation with my other half? Do you think I haven’t listened to the women in my life? Do you think she didn’t acknowledge the point that you and every woman is making? Of course we did, and of course I listened, and of course I will continue to listen so long as there are people that want to engage back with me.

Do you know what team bear is? Genuinely, do you? You're taking this super literal.

Team Bear is a man accepting a woman's point of view, shutting the fuck up, and letting them talk about what is a very real issue for them. Do you know why the man in the woods is so daunting? It's not about men being generalized, it never has been. It's about the state of mistrust that women RIGHTFULLY have in men. The overwhelming majority of sexual assault cases do not happen in the forest, in the street, or anything like that. They happen with their partner/husband. You know. The one that this woman is supposed to be able to fucking trust more than ANYONE and they do that to her?

I don’t disagree with anything you’re saying here. You’re talking to a guy that has spent the last several years helping the woman he loves overcome the trauma she endured at the hands of her ex, and most recently, the same guy that sat down her little 10 year old crying daughter and explained to her that it was completely unacceptable that her father threw her to the ground in a drunken rage. I apologize to you, and to any woman that feels slighted by my dismissive nature of the comparison between man vs. beast. After the shit I’ve seen men do, they are one and the same, but for totally different reasons. I apologize if the fresh thoughts of a crying 10 year old girl haunt me when I read this thread, and I apologize if my zero tolerance towards those cowards comes across dismissive to women. To be blunt… I’m tired of hearing about it, but women are tired of experiencing it far more than I am tired of hearing about it. I want action, that’s all. I think of women being victimized, I see red.

Most women make a mindful point to not be alone with men in many situations. It's not about generalizing men, it's about realizing that so many women when they have put their TRUST into a man have been violated in such a... gross fucking way.

My other half will not go anywhere in public without me. It took her years to get to a point when she wouldn’t flinch if I reached to hug her. I am uncomfortably aware of what women face, which is why I’m so fed up with it, which is why I don’t need the comparisons to make me realize something needs to change. This goes a lot deeper than me just being a dismissive man, I’m a man with no patience for predators or abusers, and apparently, I don’t know how to express that without coming across dismissive in general.

Did you read the WHO article I shared above? If not, I highly suggest you do.

I did, but it was in the mix of everything else.

You want to talk about accountability - but you came right out of the gate for saying women gotta change their thought process if they would rather have a bear. You've continually been dismissive. One of our own women here literally TOLD YOU that you're being dismissive, and your response was to continue to be DISMISSIVE. Now you're refusing to apologize for what you said because you feel like you were misinterpreted.

Not because women are wrong for thinking that, but because it’s a “from the frying pan to the deep fryer” kind of comparison, in my opinion, and apparently others.

Intent is meaningless, perception is everything.

Correct, and if you perceive what I’m saying as just another big dumb man telling women what to think instead of a big dumb man that’s fed up with other men and wiping women and little girl’s tears because of them, you’re bound to see what I’m saying in a different light than I intend. That’s why I’ve been patiently trying to rework what I’m saying in a way to get through to you, because how you perceived what I said from the start set the tone for how you’d perceive anything else I said and say after that.

You and I always talk about there being a time and place for everything, right? The time and place of this conversation is for men to shut the fuck up, not weigh in, and let the women of our lives tell us about the problems that they have with men.

This is part of where we disagree, because I say that the time to shut up and listen should have been long ago, and that it’s ridiculous that it has escalated to this point without it happening sooner. Women shouldn’t have to keep rehashing this, or presenting it in a different way every time a new way comes up. We should already know better, and the fact that there are men out there that don’t is disgusting. The fact that there are men out there that need to be told to listen to their partners and the women in their lives is disgusting. I don’t think it’s fair to women that they have to continue to relive trauma to teach us, I think it’s time men step the fuck up and start doing something about it.

If after all this - you still can't see this perspective, you still fail to understand; I was wrong about you.

Please, just - think about this dude.

I never refused see this perspective, and it’s not one I’m ignorant of. I just wanted to push past it because it’s another unnecessary theoretical and work to a resolution, which was likely overlooked because some of the things I’ve said may echo the things others have said in different contexts, maybe even guys that were being dismissive of women’s issues. I don’t know, dude, but I’m not the enemy here. If anyone wants to make this world a better place for women, it’s me. If anyone wants to see men pay for the bad shit they do, it’s me. I just think it’s such a sensitive subject, and so many of us decent men are so fed up with the shit that happens that emotions run high trying to come up with a resolution because we’re so damn protective over the women in our lives.

Not once did I intend any disrespect to you, or any woman, with any of my words. If it was seen that way, I do sincerely apologize, but, like I said, and it’s no excuse, it’s a fresh subject for me. I cried like a baby alone after listening to my step-daughter about how her father abusing her made her feel. It broke my fucking heart, and infuriates me anytime I think of it. No little girl deserves to feel that way about her dad. So, when I see people tossing around theoretical scenarios that they’d rather encounter than a man, I don’t wanna hear it. I don’t need to hear it. Reality is much, much worse. I wanna put a stop to it. That’s it. There are guys out there that you’re 100% right about… they need to shut the fuck up and listen to women talk about this. The rest of us? We need to do something about this. That’s all I ever meant, it wasn’t meant to be dismissive.

 

[shortkut]

Right. This isn't an exercise in what's more dangerous (the answer is man). This is an exercise in probability.

The probability that a randomly chosen man would hurt you is astonishingly low. The chances that a bear would hurt you are several orders of magnitude higher.

But it isn’t just a random man. It’s a random man in an isolated place. The fact is the actions of a random person are more unpredictable than that of a bear

 

[Rachel]

hello GW woman here

I didn't want to post in here at all but--I do want to point out one thing.

The whole point is that we are forced to generalize. We understand not all men are dangerous. But alone in the woods, we don't KNOW you. We don't know you from Adam. We don't know your mindset. I'm not thinking "the probability of this man attacking me is very low."

As to if I would prefer bear versus man, I can't say. I don't know enough about bears. I would be on my guard either way, frankly. Like either option would freak me out.

Okay that's what I wanted to say

 

[VashTheStampede]

The probability that a randomly chosen man would hurt you is astonishingly low. The chances that a bear would hurt you are several orders of magnitude higher.

I think a bear would say the opposite.

 

[VashTheStampede]

So I'm playing Mass Effect right now and I just had a conversation with Ashley Williams about why she's such a virulent Space Racist and she had an allegory about how if you're in the woods and a bear attacks, and the only way to live would be to sacrifice your dog to get away, you would do it because the dog isn't a human.

I don't have a point, I just thought it was funny that would come up while this thread is ongoing.

Bears getting a bum rap all over the galaxy

 

[shortkut]

 

[dimmerwit]

Bears, beets, Battlestar Galactica

 

[VashTheStampede]

 

[shortkut]

Oh right. This.

The whole - it's simple, just hold them accountable! Bit.

If you want to talk about what can be done? This is from the WHO article I posted that evidently a lot of men could benefit from reading.

to mark’s point, what he is suggesting is just part of the solution. People who have spent their whole lives being shielded from the consequences of their actions, begin to believe that there are in fact, no consequences for them. That’s where accountability comes in and how it starts to change things. Obviously by itself it will do next to nothing and real change requires more systemic changes in all the areas of the WHO article

 

[TD]

to mark’s point, what he is suggesting is just part of the solution. People who have spent their whole lives being shielded from the consequences of their actions, begin to believe that there are in fact, no consequences for them. That’s where accountability comes in and how it starts to change things. Obviously by itself it will do next to nothing and real change requires more systemic changes in all the areas of the WHO article

Obviously I know accountability is part of the solution but when I'm trying to talk about the complex layers of the implications of this only to be met with "it's simple - hold them accountable"?

Deep rooted seeds of systemic inequality is a multi-layered problem that is anything but simple and to suggest it's simple is not only incorrect but detrimental to the people out there who literally have to fight for equality every day of their life.

This whole exercise proved that an astonishingly large amount of men have a long way to go.

 

[Quagmire]

Right. This isn't an exercise in what's more dangerous (the answer is man). This is an exercise in probability.

I agree with this

The probability that a randomly chosen man would hurt you is astonishingly low. The chances that a bear would hurt you are several orders of magnitude higher.

I dont know if it is several magnitudes higher, a lot of factors about the type of bear, has it had a hard time finding food, does it have cubs, etc. But overall they dont look to attack humans unless the human is threatening something (intentionally or unintentionally)

 

[Quagmire]

hello GW woman here

I didn't want to post in here at all but--I do want to point out one thing.

The whole point is that we are forced to generalize. We understand not all men are dangerous. But alone in the woods, we don't KNOW you. We don't know you from Adam. We don't know your mindset. I'm not thinking "the probability of this man attacking me is very low."

As to if I would prefer bear versus man, I can't say. I don't know enough about bears. I would be on my guard either way, frankly. Like either option would freak me out.

Okay that's what I wanted to say

Big thing I've seen is you know what you get with a bear, with another person you dont know what you're gonna get.

Bears are without question dangerous, but typically will leave humans alone unless they feel threatened. If a bear and I go off in opposite directions, I feel decently confident the situation has passed though will have a slight guard up. About another person, cant say the same, they can be more cunning and try to lure the other person into a false sense of security by making it look like they went the other direction, and can more easily hide behind trees and follow someone.

 

[Zell 17]

Bears are without question dangerous, but typically will leave humans alone unless they feel threatened. If a bear and I go off in opposite directions, I feel decently confident the situation has passed though will have a slight guard up. About another person, cant say the same, they can be more cunning and try to lure the other person into a false sense of security by making it look like they went the other direction, and can more easily hide behind trees and follow someone.

We really need to specify what type of bear.

I'd rather run into Afghanistan naked waving the American flag than have a polar bear encounter fully armed.

 

[Dead2009]

Funny you should ask this, because I was just pondering it. I feel like I'm much more likely to be eaten by a mountain lion than a bear. They normally don't attack people, you usually won't even know they're there, but I feel like it's riskier than even a grizzly bear.

Does that make them riskier than people? Hmm, I'm not sure.

I used to live in a place in the woods and a mountain lion would sometimes hang out in the backyard, so I might have a different perception than most people.

I'm trying to think of an animal I would definitely not choose. My first thought was a gator, but I think those only attack if you get close, right? Maybe a hippo.

Everyone is worried about bears and mountain lions and forgetting coming across animals and creatures you dont see until its too late like poisonous insects. Youre probably more likely to get bit by a dangerous spider than you are being spotted by a mountain lion.

 

[Gloom-is-good]

Everyone is worried about bears and mountain lions and forgetting coming across animals and creatures you dont see until its too late like poisonous insects. Youre probably more likely to get bit by a dangerous spider than you are being spotted by a mountain lion.

My nightmare is to be walking in a jungle and have some kind of bug/insect burrow under my eyelid

 

[VashTheStampede]

 

[Quagmire]

I'm trying to think of an animal I would definitely not choose. My first thought was a gator, but I think those only attack if you get close, right? Maybe a hippo.

Gators I am not sure about, away from water you're probably okay (as okay as one can be)

I know hippos are really dangerous, but I dont know if they're aggressive. Are these kills due to someone getting too close and not knowing how dangerous a hippo is, are they swimming and not knowing a hippo is in there, or does a hippo see a person and go "absolutely not" and charges them?

 

[dimmerwit]

Hippos are one of the most aggressive animals on Earth.

If it was man v hippo, you pick the man every time.

 

[Quagmire]

Hippos are one of the most aggressive animals on Earth.

If it was man v hippo, you pick the man every time.

I know they're dangerous, I just didnt know if it was due to aggressiveness or the stupidity/hubris of man