Mark, I'm going to address this one more time. I need you to think. Okay? Your first instinct might be to respond to me, but just - think about it. Let it soak in. Okay?
Have you stopped to think about the reason I jumped down your throat? Why I was coming for you with the shit you were saying? You accused me of talking "for women". Do you really think that I was sitting here on a Saturday night arguing with you alone? Do you think I wasn't showing my wife the conversation? Or that she wasn't involved? Or that she wasn't fucking FUMING at the shit you were saying? Her and many other women ever since this "man vs bear" thing have been stuck arguing with men and being told by men why they're so crazy to pick the bear.
On the same token, do you think I
haven’t already had this conversation with my other half? Do you think I
haven’t listened to the women in my life? Do you think she
didn’t acknowledge the point that you and every woman is making? Of course we did, and of course I listened, and of course I will continue to listen so long as there are people that want to engage back with me.
Do you know what team bear is? Genuinely, do you? You're taking this super literal.
Team Bear is a man accepting a woman's point of view, shutting the fuck up, and letting them talk about what is a very real issue for them. Do you know why the man in the woods is so daunting? It's not about men being generalized, it never has been. It's about the state of mistrust that women RIGHTFULLY have in men. The overwhelming majority of sexual assault cases do not happen in the forest, in the street, or anything like that. They happen with their partner/husband. You know. The one that this woman is supposed to be able to fucking trust more than ANYONE and they do that to her?
I don’t disagree with anything you’re saying here. You’re talking to a guy that has spent the last several years helping the woman he loves overcome the trauma she endured at the hands of her ex, and most recently, the same guy that sat down her little 10 year old crying daughter and explained to her that it
was completely unacceptable that her father threw her to the ground in a drunken rage. I apologize to you, and to any woman that feels slighted by my dismissive nature of the
comparison between man vs. beast. After the shit I’ve seen men do, they are one and the same, but for totally different reasons. I apologize if the fresh thoughts of a crying 10 year old girl haunt me when I read this thread, and I apologize if my zero tolerance towards those cowards comes across dismissive to women. To be blunt… I’m tired of hearing about it, but women are tired of experiencing it far more than I am tired of hearing about it. I want action, that’s all. I think of women being victimized, I see red.
Most women make a mindful point to not be alone with men in many situations. It's not about generalizing men, it's about realizing that so many women when they have put their TRUST into a man have been violated in such a... gross fucking way.
My other half will not go anywhere in public without me. It took her years to get to a point when she wouldn’t flinch if I reached to hug her. I am uncomfortably aware of what women face, which is why I’m so fed up with it, which is why
I don’t need the comparisons to make me realize something needs to change. This goes a lot deeper than me just being a dismissive man, I’m a man with no patience for predators or abusers, and apparently, I don’t know how to express that without coming across dismissive in general.
Did you read the WHO article I shared above? If not, I highly suggest you do.
I did, but it was in the mix of everything else.
You want to talk about accountability - but you came right out of the gate for saying women gotta change their thought process if they would rather have a bear. You've continually been dismissive. One of our own women here literally TOLD YOU that you're being dismissive, and your response was to continue to be DISMISSIVE. Now you're refusing to apologize for what you said because you feel like you were misinterpreted.
Not because women are wrong for thinking that, but because it’s a “from the frying pan to the deep fryer” kind of comparison, in my opinion, and apparently others.
Intent is meaningless, perception is everything.
Correct, and if you perceive what I’m saying as just another big dumb man telling women what to think instead of a big dumb man that’s fed up with other men and wiping women and little girl’s tears because of them, you’re bound to see what I’m saying in a different light than I intend. That’s why I’ve been patiently trying to rework what I’m saying in a way to get through to you, because how you perceived what I said from the start set the tone for how you’d perceive anything else I said and say after that.
You and I always talk about there being a time and place for everything, right? The time and place of this conversation is for men to shut the fuck up, not weigh in, and let the women of our lives tell us about the problems that they have with men.
This is part of where we disagree, because I say that the time to shut up and listen should have been long ago, and that it’s ridiculous that it has escalated to this point without it happening sooner. Women shouldn’t have to keep rehashing this, or presenting it in a different way every time a new way comes up. We
should already know better, and the fact that there are men out there that don’t is disgusting. The fact that there are men out there that need to be told to listen to their partners and the women in their lives is disgusting. I don’t think it’s fair to women that they have to continue to relive trauma to teach us, I think it’s time men step the fuck up and start doing something about it.
If after all this - you still can't see this perspective, you still fail to understand; I was wrong about you.
Please, just - think about this dude.
I never
refused see this perspective, and it’s not one I’m ignorant of. I just wanted to push past it because it’s another unnecessary theoretical and work to a resolution, which was likely overlooked because some of the things I’ve said may echo the things others have said in different contexts, maybe even guys that were being dismissive of women’s issues. I don’t know, dude, but I’m not the enemy here. If anyone wants to make this world a better place for women, it’s me. If anyone wants to see men pay for the bad shit they do, it’s me. I just think it’s such a sensitive subject, and so many of us decent men are so fed up with the shit that happens that emotions run high trying to come up with a resolution because we’re so damn protective over the women in our lives.
Not once did I intend any disrespect to you, or any woman, with any of my words. If it was seen that way, I do sincerely apologize, but, like I said, and it’s no excuse, it’s a fresh subject for me. I cried like a baby alone after
listening to my step-daughter about how her father abusing her made her feel. It broke my fucking heart, and infuriates me anytime I think of it. No little girl deserves to feel that way about her dad. So, when I see people tossing around theoretical scenarios that they’d rather encounter than a man, I don’t wanna hear it. I don’t need to hear it. Reality is much, much worse. I wanna put a stop to it. That’s it. There are guys out there that you’re 100% right about… they need to shut the fuck up and listen to women talk about this. The rest of us? We need to do something about this. That’s all I ever meant, it wasn’t meant to be dismissive.
www.independent.co.uk
