Would you rather run into a bear or random man in the woods?

[TD]

We teach men that it’s unacceptable to sexually assault women by removing them from our society.

But how? Why the fuck do they wanna do it in the first place? You can't unteach someone something you don't even understand - we aren't wired like that.

 

[Mark]

But how? Why the fuck do they wanna do it in the first place? You can't unteach someone something you don't even understand - we aren't wired like that.

If I had that answer, I’d have a Nobel peace prize and we wouldn’t be having this conversation, brother. All I know is people that do bad shit tend to do it because they think they can get away with it, whether they blame the girl for being drunk, they’re affluent, or otherwise think they’re above the law or basic human decency. I think if we focus on consequences and raising our boys better, that’s the best place we can start. And when one of them fucks up? We don’t blame what’s between their legs, we blame them. We don’t blame the girl for dressing a certain way, or being given a laced drink, or even drinking too much. We blame the guy.

 

[Kat]

I’ve been in countless situations with men bigger and stronger than me that weren’t sexually attracted to me, but wanted to cause me harm nonetheless. I’ll still take my chances with the human, not only is the animal well outside of my weight class, you don’t bring claws to a fist fight. That’s just rude.

I think this is a big part of what's driving the disconnect. You've had to fight men and it's worked out well enough for you so far. I've had to fight men too, and I was never able to prevent them from doing anything they wanted to me. My assumption is if I run into a man in the woods, that he will be able to do whatever he pleases to me, because I will physically be unable to stop him, and nobody else will be around to help.

So, I know it's hard, but imagine your choice is a bear or a man who can easily overpower you. You will not succeed in a fight with either. Pretend you're already injured or sick from drinking bad water or something. Which would you choose?

it’s fair to say you’ve passed by many men in your life that never said or did anything untoward you, and plenty of men that set off no alarm, right?

Of course, nobody would deny that.

You instincts let you know when something is awry, but you’re clearly aware of the potential for danger at all times.

Well, I wouldn't say that. You're kind to say so though.

Perhaps that guy wouldn’t be a creep if he was taught better growing up? Both of my points show two different generations of males avoid consequences for their actions by not being accountable. That sets a terrible example and precedent. It’s gotta start somewhere… perhaps we string up a few rapists in our generation, we can raise the next generation to know that that kind of exploitation is reprehensible and isn’t acceptable for society.

Maybe. But there will always be people who enjoy hurting other people, and they only suppress it due to likely consequences. In the middle of the woods, it doesn't matter much what society thinks.

We teach men that it’s unacceptable to sexually assault women by removing them from our society. It won’t eliminate all of the sexual assaults,

If that's the case, then I'll stick with the bear, thanks.

 

[The Flame]

I think this variation would be interesting for guys to answer: if you had to choose between meeting a random bear in the woods or a man who was much bigger and stronger than you, which would you choose? What if the man who can easily overpower you is likely to be sexually attracted to your gender?

I'm like 5'4" and not very active, so this pretty much already applied for me. I am stupid and overconfident however. Just not overconfident enough to think I could fight off a bear if I had to. My ass is playing dead, shitting myself, and praying to God.

 

[TD]

My ass is playing dead, shitting myself, and praying to God.

If it's black, fight back.
If it's brown, lie down.
If it's white, good night.

Free lesson.

 

[Kat]

I'm going to have to second @TD here: Why are y'all so afraid of bears?! I feel like some here have interpreted the question to essentially be, "if you had to meet a random man or certain death, which would it be?" No wonder so many dudes are offended by women picking the bear.

I'm not saying you should go seek out a bear and give it a hug, but they generally don't attack people on sight. Whether you meet a bear or a man in the woods, you'll likely be fine.

 

[TD]

If it's black, fight back.
If it's brown, lie down.
If it's white, good night.

Free lesson.

Oh and to be clear - this is only if the bear is actively attacking you. Should've clarified. Please don't run around fighting black bears.

 

[The Flame]

If it's black, fight back.
If it's brown, lie down.
If it's white, good night.

Free lesson.

Yeah a black bear is a different story. But when I hear "bear" I just automatically think grizzly.

 

[The Flame]

Question though. Does your answer change if it's a mountain lion?

Or any animal for that matter. A few wolves? A hippo?

 

[Smacktard]

Statistically speaking, you are way more likely to get hurt by a man than a bear.

If you ran into bears and men in equal amounts, statistically speaking, you would be way more likely to get hurt by a bear. You may run into bears all the time and not be injured, but you've run into way more men in your life and also not been injured.

You're also using black bears as your bear, although they're commonly known to be the least threatening and most skittish of the major bears. If it's a grizzly or a brown bear, you're likely fucked.

It's not sexism, men are more comfortable targeting women than men. That's not speculation, that's fact.

More men are killed by men than women killed by men.

 

[Kat]

Question though. Does your answer change if it's a mountain lion?

Funny you should ask this, because I was just pondering it. I feel like I'm much more likely to be eaten by a mountain lion than a bear. They normally don't attack people, you usually won't even know they're there, but I feel like it's riskier than even a grizzly bear.

Does that make them riskier than people? Hmm, I'm not sure.

I used to live in a place in the woods and a mountain lion would sometimes hang out in the backyard, so I might have a different perception than most people.

I'm trying to think of an animal I would definitely not choose. My first thought was a gator, but I think those only attack if you get close, right? Maybe a hippo.

 

[TD]

More men are killed by men than women killed by men.

lol another man trying to make how women feel about him.

 

[Kat]

If you ran into bears and men in equal amounts, statistically speaking, you would be way more likely to get hurt by a bear. You may run into bears all the time and not be injured, but you've run into way more men in your life and also not been injured.

Running into a man in public even if nobody is immediately obviously around is a lot different than running into one in the middle of nowhere. I'm not convinced the bears would win.

 

[The Flame]

Hmm. The middle of nowhere is a more suspicious place for a man to be than a bear. What if you encountered the bear in the middle of civilization, where I'd assume it would be looking for food?

I think I'd feel much safer around a gator than a bear tbh. I've watched enough Steve Irwin and gators can't climb trees.

 

[Smacktard]

lol another man trying to make how women feel about him.

You said men are more dangerous to women than to other men. All I did was point out that more men are killed by men than women. I think the ratio is like 7:3.

Running into a man in public even if nobody is immediately obviously around is a lot different than running into one in the middle of nowhere. I'm not convinced the bears would win.

That's a fair point. If a woman was alone in the woods and saw both a bear and a man, I don't think she would run to the bear for help, though.

I'm inclined to agree with The Flame that this is just another one of these dumb online ragebait things meant to pit women and men against each other. Yes, many men are complete shit, and men are more dangerous than women, but generalizations like this help no one.

 

[TD]

You said men are more dangerous to women than to other men. All I did was point out that more men are killed by men than women. I think the ratio is like 7:3.

Okay now do rape then.

 

[TD]

Fellas.

What was the very first sentence I said when I chimed in?

Listen to the women in your life and come on back. You'll have a different perspective. I promise.

 

[Smacktard]

Fellas.

What was the very first sentence I said when I chimed in?

Listen to the women in your life and come on back. You'll have a different perspective. I promise.

FWIW I think this fella did that:

I have read every single word in this thread to a sexual assault survivor that is sitting right across from me, if you must know how close my knowledge of the subject is. Trust and believe, she sleeps better at night knowing I will take care of every threat she may face, because she’s seen me do it, because that’s what a good man does, and it sickens her to see the good men she knows get dogged because of the bad ones DESPITE her being well aware of the threats men pose to her.

Also FWIW my wife chose bear. We disagreed, it's fine. I said statistically I don't think it makes sense to choose a bear. She said at least the element of uncertainty is removed with the bear -- either it kills you or it doesn't. Men can kidnap, torture, rape, etc over long periods of time. I get where she's coming from, I just don't think that's a realistic occurrence for like 99.9999% of men.

 

[TD]

This is just general advice for men based on what I'm seeing. It becomes a very slippery slope very fast, I've had to see it happen all too often in my previous line of work.

 

[TD]

Seriously. Talk to more than one. When you hear some crazy shit like someone losing a hand to a bear and still choosing bear?

That should never happen.

 

[Quagmire]

I think this variation would be interesting for guys to answer: if you had to choose between meeting a random bear in the woods or a man who was much bigger and stronger than you, which would you choose? What if the man who can easily overpower you is likely to be sexually attracted to your gender?

This is an interesting twist, Im 6'1 and decently strong, so it would have to be a really big person, which do exist. I might pick the bear because I know the bear probably wants to leave me alone. Humans are not their normal food and will hopefully leave me a lone and forget about me

If it's black, fight back.
If it's brown, lie down.
If it's white, good night.

Free lesson.

Watch out, I've seen some black bears that look brown. So if in an area with bears know the type in the woods (and have bear spray)

Question though. Does your answer change if it's a mountain lion?

Or any animal for that matter. A few wolves? A hippo?

Mountain lion, if Read Dead has taught me anything, you dont fuck around with them. I think I'd pick a man over a mountain lion.

A few wolves, harder to say. Im not sure how often they attack humans, if I can get a huge as stick and scare them off and keep them at bay, but I also dont know their behavior.

Hippo, I also dont know their behavior, I feel like if you leave them alone they leave you alone and its getting too close that causes issues, but I am ignorant of the fact

More men are killed by men than women killed by men.

Okay, what does that have to do with this? This includes gang, war, drug, etc. Usually a "reason" other than "I want him"

I just don't think that's a realistic occurrence for like 99.9999% of men.

I would like to think that too, but the amount of women I know who have been sexually assaulted or worse are disgustingly high and those are just the ones who were comfortable telling me

 

[Smacktard]

Okay, what does that have to do with this? This includes gang, war, drug, etc. Usually a "reason" other than "I want him"

Yeah that's true, I just heard people say that men wouldn't understand because men harm women more than men harm men, and I don't necessarily think that's true.

What is true though is that women put up with a lot more shit from men than men do. I can see why women would feel MORE threatened than men in a situation like that, but it's all such a vague question that everyone will interpret it differently.

I encounter solo women when hiking all the time. In this case, she's alone in the forest with a stranger. When I picture being alone in the forest with a man, I think of like a hiking trail. I'm not picturing a man leering at me from behind some trees in a forest. If that's the scenario, give me the fuckin bear because that's creepy as shit.

 

[TD]

Yeah that's true, I just heard people say that men wouldn't understand because men harm women more than men harm men, and I don't necessarily think that's true.

For the record - I never said "harmed", I said targeted. You jumped to "kill", which seems to be a pretty big default option for men in this discussion. The first thing that came to mind for me in this exercise was sexual assault.

It's an opportunity for men to realize (as you mentioned earlier from talking to your wife) that women worry (and tbh should worry) about a lot more than just being killed when bumping into a strange man.

There's far too many men out there who are treating this as an opportunity to try to tell women why they're wrong, when the vast majority of men don't have to worry about many of the things women do.

Without trying to talk to other men about this issue or without them walking away with this kind of lesson, it risks becoming a breeding ground for what they think acceptable behaviour toward women is which just isn't acceptable. It starts with telling them they're wrong and how to feel. Then spirals from there.

Men gotta be walking away from this one understanding a woman's perspective, it's the true value in this.

 

[MC74]

On the topic of accountability, the fact that this shit is allowed to slide for the sake of "boys being boys" is why hockey culture is fucked up the way it is.

Kinda off-topic here, but I wanted to get that one off my chest because even to this day, it's still a major issue within the sport.

 

[Quagmire]

It's an opportunity for men to realize (as you mentioned earlier from talking to your wife) that women worry (and tbh should worry) about a lot more than just being killed when bumping into a strange man.

Yep, when Im walking at night to my car, the worst thing I worry about is being robbed, women have to worry about so much more

There's far too many men out there who are treating this as an opportunity to try to tell women why they're wrong, when the vast majority of men don't have to worry about many of the things women do.

Yep and all it really does is cement women's fears as a lot of these men arent getting it and are being pushy just like some can be in the real world when trying to talk to them, buy them a drink, get their number, etc.. This is a hypothetical and what should be a ridiculous scenario, but some men are all up in arms about it, all it does is highlight that some men just dont get what women go through and can't put them selves in the woman's shoes.

 

[Mark]

I think this is a big part of what's driving the disconnect. You've had to fight men and it's worked out well enough for you so far. I've had to fight men too, and I was never able to prevent them from doing anything they wanted to me. My assumption is if I run into a man in the woods, that he will be able to do whatever he pleases to me, because I will physically be unable to stop him, and nobody else will be around to help.

It’s sad that you’ve found yourself in that situation enough times to use the word “men”, but ignoring the semantics… the “men” you’ve had to fight aren’t men at all. They’re boys trapped in the body of an adult that do not have any self-respect, let alone any respect for others, let alone respect to what they perceive to be an inferior woman.

So, I know it's hard, but imagine your choice is a bear or a man who can easily overpower you. You will not succeed in a fight with either. Pretend you're already injured or sick from drinking bad water or something. Which would you choose?

At this point, though, we’re essentially creating an unconquerable scenario. We’re stepping beyond the black and white discussion of “man vs. bear” and aligning several of the worst possible case variables you could ask for in a situation like that to produce the worst possible outcome. Naturally, I would lose in a scenario like that, as would anyone else cocky enough to think otherwise. That’s part of the point people debating this are making, and why it’s looked at as rage bait like @Smacktard said and @The Flame alluded to.

Well, I wouldn't say that. You're kind to say so though.

I’ve known a lot of naive and just plain stupid people who placed themselves in dangerous situations, and you certainly have a level of contemplation and perspective that could save your life. However, just like me, if someone really wanted you dead… they could find a way to make it happen.

Maybe. But there will always be people who enjoy hurting other people, and they only suppress it due to likely consequences. In the middle of the woods, it doesn't matter much what society thinks.

While this is 100% true and I won’t disagree with your point, it still begs the question of what that scenario would look like, say… a generation or two down the line of men being taught better or realizing that certain behavior is unacceptable. For example, if I’m not mistaken, it was India that I read something about years ago. They had a massive issue with sexual assaults, and then they clamped down on the perpetrators as they became known and convicted, and there has been a gradual reduction in sex crimes in the period of time that article covered. What it’s like now? I couldn’t tell you, I’ve never been there, but I’ve known a few Indian folks and the topic has come up, and apparently it was a much bigger problem there than it is here. My point is… they enacted a measure to attempt to put an end to it, they’re not at 0 by any means, but progress has been made. That’s all I’m suggesting… that as soon as we eliminate the Brock Turners and Bill Cosbys of this world, women will be in a safer place.

If that's the case, then I'll stick with the bear, thanks.

You still use a lighter even though fire can burn, right? You still use electricity even though it’ll only take less than one ampere to stop your heart, right? Risk assessment and risk mitigation never reach absolute zero. There will always be variables that create outliers.

Question though. Does your answer change if it's a mountain lion?

Or any animal for that matter. A few wolves? A hippo?

Absolutely, that’s still a part of assessing risks and mitigating them.

You said men are more dangerous to women than to other men. All I did was point out that more men are killed by men than women. I think the ratio is like 7:3.

I get where you’re coming from with that, but I disagree on the principle that the numbers on the male side include combatants, criminal activity, and occupational hazards that generally favor males.

That's a fair point. If a woman was alone in the woods and saw both a bear and a man, I don't think she would run to the bear for help, though.

Precisely.

I'm inclined to agree with The Flame that this is just another one of these dumb online ragebait things meant to pit women and men against each other. Yes, many men are complete shit, and men are more dangerous than women, but generalizations like this help no one.

Exactly. All it does is leave decent men and already petrified women tossing scenarios back and forth where they continually escalate to the point of being totally one-sided against men while the real threats are off in the woods looking for their next victim paying ZERO attention to this debate, because they are already doing what they want. Until… someone stops them.

Fellas.

What was the very first sentence I said when I chimed in?

Listen to the women in your life and come on back. You'll have a different perspective. I promise.

To add to this, the women I’ve had read this all see your points, but they’ve all been grounded in life here in America long enough to know that I’m also right about doing something about those men. Just like any other form of crime, my solution isn’t an overnight one. I could be elected emperor of the world right after I post this, enact a law killing all sex offenders, and we’d still have outliers filter through the cracks. That’s unfortunately a very real part about human nature… all it takes is one sexual deviant to take the innocence of a child, or one individual who was sexually assaulted themselves to the point where it became normalized to them. There will always be bad people… what good people choose to do about them ultimately plays a role in how long they carry it on. To use a buzzword… this kind of behavior was normalized. How do you make it to where it’s no longer normalized? The same way you do with anything else. Incrementally.

FWIW I think this fella did that:

…and I’ve continued to through this morning.

Also FWIW my wife chose bear. We disagreed, it's fine. I said statistically I don't think it makes sense to choose a bear. She said at least the element of uncertainty is removed with the bear -- either it kills you or it doesn't. Men can kidnap, torture, rape, etc over long periods of time. I get where she's coming from, I just don't think that's a realistic occurrence for like 99.9999% of men.

That’s the same logic mine applied, but after reading my responses here and asking for elaboration on certain elements, she didn’t take long to see my perspective on it since hers is already pretty clear to me. She respects the amount of danger I’ve been in over the course of my life, and completely understands the rationale behind where I’m coming from… but, she also knows me well enough personally to know where my heart is on the matter.

This is just general advice for men based on what I'm seeing. It becomes a very slippery slope very fast, I've had to see it happen all too often in my previous line of work.

Yup, and in my previous line of work is where I’ve had to protect women from these kind of scenarios. Ain’t nothing like driving through a dark parking lot in the middle of the night looking for a car, hearing the most blood-curdling scream you could imagine, following the source of the sound, and finding a man trying to pin a woman down in between two cars. There also isn’t anything like the sense of gratitude you feel from someone for being at the right place at the right time and having the wherewithal to handle it, and the confusion you feel internally because you didn’t do anything special… you just stopped something bad from happening to someone. Trust and believe, I know where you’re coming from, there are some sick fucks out there.

Yeah that's true, I just heard people say that men wouldn't understand because men harm women more than men harm men, and I don't necessarily think that's true.

Which brings me back to my point about occupational hazards… how many women officers are there compared to men? How many soldiers? Truck drivers? Repo men? I’ve been in far more dangerous situations than most women I know, including those that survived assaults, and any woman I’ve taken out on the road with me over the years to see what the job was like walked away from the experience with a new appreciation for what their man did to put food on the table. Now, there’s a clear distinction between my willful act of going to work and a woman walking through the woods met by a predator, but that isn’t the point here. The point is, overall, the presence and handling of a dangerous situation.

What is true though is that women put up with a lot more shit from men than men do. I can see why women would feel MORE threatened than men in a situation like that, but it's all such a vague question that everyone will interpret it differently.

Exactly. You’re only gonna pop off at a dude so many times before you get met with a “you know what, motherfucker?”, and women don’t get that luxury.

I encounter solo women when hiking all the time. In this case, she's alone in the forest with a stranger. When I picture being alone in the forest with a man, I think of like a hiking trail. I'm not picturing a man leering at me from behind some trees in a forest. If that's the scenario, give me the fuckin bear because that's creepy as shit.

Which is why the context of this conversation has caused so many issues… it’s just not realistic to imagine some predator lying in wait for your evening hike, and if it is… then you need a different hiking spot because that one has clearly been compromised and doesn’t receive any attention from park rangers or whoever would be in charge of ensuring the safety to the visitors.

Now… if we’re just talking about wandering through the unnamed woods on public ground, it begs the question… what are you even doing in the woods to begin with to where this is a scenario that’s a possibility? Why would ANYONE, male or female, place themselves in such a position without weighing the pros and cons of it? I’m not saying that if you’re lost in the woods, go get raped and have fun, but… what the hell was going on in this theoretical woman’s mind where she thought it was okay to wander off into the wilderness? I don’t need to ask that question of the predator, I already know the answer. However, if the person knows there are predators in the woods, or knows of the potential for them to exist, why the hell are they playing with fire? We don’t need people doing stupid shit because they’re naive enough to think they’re safer with a wild animal than a human. We also don’t need people being naive enough to not suspect the potential for danger as well. No, I’m by no means blaming a victim, but… it’s common knowledge that people present themselves as potential victims unknowingly. You’re not gonna walk down the street with a brand new iPhone in your hand if you’ve seen news stories about people running up, knocking the holder out, and taking the phone, are you? Absolutely not. You’re going to make sure you keep your device in your pocket, stay aware of your surroundings, and have a plan of action in case anything goes sideways. The same should be applied across the board… I see a lot of people with, for lack of a better way of putting it, absolutely shitty survival skills and even worse situational awareness. Male and female.

 

[Quagmire]

Which is why the context of this conversation has caused so many issues… it’s just not realistic to imagine some predator lying in wait for your evening hike, and if it is… then you need a different hiking spot because that one has clearly been compromised and doesn’t receive any attention from park rangers or whoever would be in charge of ensuring the safety to the visitors.

This is a hypothetical situation, should we phrase it would you rather be at a bar with a bear or a man and no one else? The point is women dont know what they're getting with a man, but you know what a bear is.

And sometimes there are killers who meet their victims hiking in national parks.

There is an entire podcast on it https://parkpredators.com/

 

[Quagmire]

I'm inclined to agree with The Flame that this is just another one of these dumb online ragebait things meant to pit women and men against each other. Yes, many men are complete shit, and men are more dangerous than women, but generalizations like this help no one.

I dont think it was originally meant to be rage bait, but some men fell hard for it as rage bait and well, raged about it. If men werent getting all up in arms about it, it would probably help with the 'not all men"

Back to what I said earlier, this is a fictional hypothetical situation and there are still men who can't take no for an answer here. They have to question a woman's decision and try to convince the woman they are wrong

 

[Mark]

This is a hypothetical situation, should we phrase it would you rather be at a bar with a bear or a man and no one else? The point is women dont know what they're getting with a man, but you know what a bear is.

And sometimes there are killers who meet their victims hiking in national parks.

There is an entire podcast on it https://parkpredators.com/

I’m well aware of the point that’s attempted to be made without sinking time into a podcast theorizing hypotheticals. My statements are rooted in the facts of the things I’ve seen and experienced in life, and as someone who has survived many situations that could have killed me, I have a pretty good bearing on what it’s like to be in danger. Enough so that it was my responsibility to ensure the physical safety of dozens of repo agents, male and female, because I’m that capable of assessing risks and mitigating dangerous situations.

I dont think it was originally meant to be rage bait, but some men fell hard for it as rage bait and well, raged about it. If men werent getting all up in arms about it, it would probably help with the 'not all men"

Back to what I said earlier, this is a fictional hypothetical situation and there are still men who can't take no for an answer here. They have to question a woman's decision and try to convince the woman they are wrong

No, it’s thought of as rage bait because it’s rooted in the same kind of irrational thinking that posed the question several months ago that if so and so was a worm, would they still be loved. People that regularly experience danger, and not hypothetically, tend to have a different outlook towards dangerous scenarios. It’s a very analytical process, there’s more time spend observing than theorizing.

As far as not taking no for an answer… I haven’t seen that once. I have, however, seen people trying to offer perspectives. No one is debating whether or not women have a right to be in fear of certain men. The only thing that’s being debated is whether or not it’s effective to generalize all men. If we were having this conversation about women instead of men, women would be just as up in arms if they were generalized like that… which is something that I’ve made sure not to do, because as a generalized man, I know how it feels. Not once have I diminished or disputed the trauma victims endure. Not once have I said a woman is wrong for being scared of a random dude in the woods.

 

[TD]

Ain’t nothing like driving through a dark parking lot in the middle of the night looking for a car, hearing the most blood-curdling scream you could imagine, following the source of the sound, and finding a man trying to pin a woman down in between two cars.

All due respect dude, but being the one that's in the situation doing the screaming has to be worse. Much worse.

And yes, I've intervened on more than one sexual assault.

 

[Smacktard]

And sometimes there are killers who meet their victims hiking in national parks.

There is an entire podcast on it https://parkpredators.com/

And people get crushed to death by vending machines every year. That doesn't mean that I'm going to stop using vending machines.

When you look at the stats, an encounter with a man is less dangerous than an encounter with a bear. The sheer number of times that women are alone with men over the course of their lives leads to cases where they are abused. Not just the sheer number, of course, but also shitty men being shitty, which IS a reality then men have to -- and mostly do -- accept. But I still think it's misandrist to paint all men is dangerous because SOME men are bad men.

If men werent getting all up in arms about it, it would probably help with the 'not all men"

Women don't like negative stereotypes about themselves, either. This is not a uniquely male phenomenon. I think it's a generally accepted truth that men are more predatory and dangerous than women, yes, but likening this guy...

...to an apex predator is a bit disingenuous.

 

[Mark]

…but being the one that's in the situation doing the screaming has to be worse. Much worse.

No shit, dude. That’s not what I’m saying at all. The fact that that was your takeaway tells me that you’re seeing me as no different than some incel neckbeard that’ll never touch a woman yet knows all about them, and knows all about violence yet has never thrown a punch. I’m not one of those dipshits you need to argue this point with, I’m unfortunately very aware of reality, which is where my position on this comes from. Not this weeks buzzworthy article. Not this months podcast. Shit I’ve seen with my own eyes, conversations I’ve had, situations I’ve intervened in. This might be the hot topic for some now, but for the rest of us out there living in the real world? This is nothing new. There are already men out there actively doing what they can to protect women and children. There just aren’t enough of them, and there aren’t heavy enough consequences for those that prey on others. Until both of those things change… no amount of theoretical logic is gonna matter.

And yes, I've intervened on more than one sexual assault.

Good on you, that’s what anybody should do. Hold those pieces of shit accountable.

 

[TD]

That's not how I'm looking at you, Mark - but this goes well beyond individual belief and perspective.

People who keep fixating on the literal bear in this example are missing the big picture. Women are afraid of men and instead of listening to why they are - so many people are trying to be like, well the bear is more dangerous because of xyz. You got men being offended for being grouped with those assholes. You got the alleged alpha males who already think they have a right to control their body, now telling them how to feel.

The people who are so scared of getting killed by a bear while in the woods are probably the same type who will gladly shoot to kill a home invader. You're in the woods? You're in a bear's habitat, not your own, you're invading their home. They aren't the apex predator, humans, and more often than not - men are. Women would still rather take the bear in the woods than their chances with a man.

This isn't some hot topic, this is a long unaddressed topic that continues to go unaddressed and it doesn't help when so much of your country is in love with a piece of shit who preaches to grab em by the pussy.

Something not being new is not an excuse. Racism, hate, phobics, all this shit. None of it is new. But it still needs to be talked about but as always, it gets glanced over and buried by so-called alpha males.

One of the first things you said was criticizing women for feeling this way:

If some woman thinks walking into the woods and running into a bear is safer than any dude, she needs to reevaluate her thought process.

This is an asshole thing to say and complete invalidates the perspective of women.

 

[VashTheStampede]

What if the man is a bear?

 

[VashTheStampede]

Some of y'all are really overestimating the dangers of bears.

Black bears, the likely most common bear you'd come across in America, are actually pretty fucking chill. And even if you do end up in a violent situation with a black bear, the odds of you being killed or even seriously injured are pretty low.

It's pretty fucked up to widely paint all bears as being dangerous, based on the actions of a violent minority.

#NotAllBears

 

[Mark]

That's not how I'm looking at you, Mark - but this goes well beyond individual belief and perspective.

How do you think these kind of things change, though? If someone reads my words, and then next week they see a guy behaving like a creep and speak up because they now think it’s the right thing to do, what does that accomplish? It takes one individual to rape a women to ruin the image of all men. Why can’t it take one man to be a catalyst that makes another man step up to protect a woman? Perpetuate that enough times, the same way the negative has been perpetuated, and what do you think could be accomplished?

People who keep fixating on the literal bear in this example are missing the big picture. Women are afraid of men and instead of listening to why they are - so many people are trying to be like, well the bear is more dangerous because of xyz. You got men being offended for being grouped with those assholes. You got the alleged alpha males who already think they have a right to control their body, now telling them how to feel.

Yeah, dude, I see where this is going and I’m not seeing an Andrew Tate here, I’m seeing two men that love the women in their lives and have two different but connected ways to deal with the issue.

The people who are so scared of getting killed by a bear while in the woods are probably the same type who will gladly shoot to kill a home invader. You're in the woods? You're in a bear's habitat, not your own, you're invading their home. They aren't the apex predator, humans, and more often than not - men are. Women would still rather take the bear in the woods than their chances with a man.

I’ve stated multiple times my thoughts on home defense, I would most certainly shoot to kill. I’m not waiting to find out if he wants my PlayStation or the life of my family, and I’m not ashamed to admit that I’d do what I have to do to protect my own in a do or potentially die scenario. However, I also agree with the sentiment that I’d be trespassing on a bear’s territory if I were in the woods, and because of that, and being aware of the risks of invading on something else’s territory, I would err on the side of caution to begin with… which is where I posed the question theorizing motive for the random woman in the woods. Does she know there are bears there? Yes. Does she have means of self-defense, like bear spray, like you’ve admitted to possessing on your hikes? If not, her ignorance or naïveté has walked her unprepared into a life or death situation. If so, then she is astutely aware of the risks and has prepared for them. I don’t see the sexist connotations behind that very clear thought process, because I’m applying the same logic you yourself have admitted to employing as a man in preparation for your hikes.

This isn't some hot topic, this is a long unaddressed topic that continues to go unaddressed and it doesn't help when so much of your country is in love with a piece of shit who preaches to grab em by the pussy.

Unaddressed by whom? The first time I kicked the shit out of a dude for taking advantage of a drunk chick was over 20 years ago. I address it every time the opportunity presents itself, I don’t sit around and talk about it.

Something not being new is not an excuse. Racism, hate, phobics, all this shit. None of it is new. But it still needs to be talked about but as always, it gets glanced over and buried by so-called alpha males.

No, it gets glanced over because of that stupid ass “boys will be boys” mantra, money, power, etc. If we stop allowing the behavior, regardless of those factors, it will eventually change. Making excusing and distributing the blame where it shouldn’t go doesn’t address the root cause of the issue, as I’ve already said countless times in this conversation. You can go ahead and generalize men and dance around the subject all you want, but I’m gonna continue to single out each and every individual that commits those kind of acts and hold them accountable on their own. The way I see it, you and I aren’t there when a rapist is taking his pants off helping him with his belt buckle, and you and I won’t be there to share the blame for what he does after the fact.

One of the first things you said was criticizing women for feeling this way:



This is an asshole thing to say and complete invalidates the perspective of women.

Your point? I’d say the same thing if you were walking into the woods without preparing for the dangers you’d face. You said it yourself… bear preparedness is an easy concept, you follow some simple rules, you lessen your chances to get hurt. Why would someone not follow similar guidelines when heading out downtown for the night? Have a plan. Have people know where you’re at, what route you’re taking, what ride share service you’re using, who you’re with, etc. I’m a grown ass man, and when I leave, people know where I’m going and would know what route I’d take just in case, because you never know what could happen… an airplane door could fall out of the sky and land on the vehicle I’m in. It’s called taking personal responsibility for your safety and not just blindly wandering off into the woods.

All of this still doesn’t bring a woman’s chance of unexpected harm to come her way to zero. That’s where my battle cry for more accountability comes into play, because that’s how you start reshaping society to not behave that way to begin with. It’s a form of psychological conditioning, no different than what conditioned some men to believe they have the right to treat women any way they please.

 

[TD]

This is going in circles and you keep making it about your white american male privileged perspective with an inability to realize that maybe, just maybe, the desired effect isn't for a man to come in and save the day - but to increase awareness of how much of a problem sexual assault is for women. Then instead of acknowledging that, they get met with shit like this.

Two things I want you to reflect on:

a) This question was directed at women specifically. You could argue that this was a social experiment to see what men would do and quite frankly - many of them have failed spectacularly. A question directed at women that men want to jump in and solve, yet not actually listen to what the women, who were asked this question, are saying.

b) Do you think the solution is that men need to save women from this? Women should not have to rely on a man showing up at just the right time to feel safe. For every one you are able to help, many, many others, are unhelped. Women need to feel safe around men, they don't need the man to come in and save the day like they're some Disney movie princess.

Do you think I felt good about needing to intervene? On the level that I did intervene, yeah. Maybe. But the reality is that it makes me sick to my stomach every time. To come across a woman who can't stop shaking and/or crying and might be permanently damaged as a result? That shit is heartbreaking - and even if you intervene, the trauma can definitely still be there.

It doesn't matter that every man isn't like that when it comes to how safe a woman feels. All that matters is it could be THAT man.

To try to imply that they shouldn't feel like that because of your own privelege? C'mon man.

 

[Mark]

This is going in circles and you keep making it about your white american male privileged perspective with an inability to realize that maybe, just maybe, the desired effect isn't for a man to come in and save the day - but to increase awareness of how much of a problem sexual assault is for women. Then instead of acknowledging that, they get met with shit like this.

Two things I want you to reflect on:

a) This question was directed at women specifically. You could argue that this was a social experiment to see what men would do and quite frankly - many of them have failed spectacularly. A question directed at women that men want to jump in and solve, yet not actually listen to what the women, who were asked this question, are saying.

b) Do you think the solution is that men need to save women from this? Women should not have to rely on a man showing up at just the right time to feel safe. For every one you are able to help, many, many others, are unhelped. Women need to feel safe around men, they don't need the man to come in and save the day like they're some Disney movie princess.

Do you think I felt good about needing to intervene? On the level that I did intervene, yeah. Maybe. But the reality is that it makes me sick to my stomach every time. To come across a woman who can't stop shaking and/or crying and might be permanently damaged as a result? That shit is heartbreaking - and even if you intervene, the trauma can definitely still be there.

It doesn't matter that every man isn't like that when it comes to how safe a woman feels. All that matters is it could be THAT man.

To try to imply that they shouldn't feel like that because of your own privelege? C'mon man.

If you think I’m suggesting that men come in and save the day, you’re still mistaken. You or I should have never been in the position to intervene, because those women should have never been in that position needing to be saved. The men that perpetrate these acts shouldn’t have committed to them to begin with. Period. The other men should do their part to make sure women don’t have to feel that way. It’s a lot simpler than you’re making it, it just requires some actual effort and the lack of giving a fuck about calling out individuals instead of generalizing.

Making this about my position in American society is dancing around the issue. Still. The fact that I’m a straight white American male has absolutely nothing to do with what John Doe decides to do to Jane Doe. Criminals do what criminals do and predators do what predators do regardless of their place in society, because it has been evident that men all the way at the bottom of the totem pole and men all the way at the top of it have all been found guilty in the past. Removing them from society is the only solution, because you’re right, a woman shouldn’t have to be in fear of being sexually assaulted.

Notice, I didn’t ask you if you felt good about intervening. I know that answer. It doesn’t need to be asked. Notice, I didn’t act like a Disney hero in telling my story, because I’m not one. I said we were in the right place at the right time to spare someone something traumatic.

 

[TD]

It’s a lot simpler than you’re making it, it just requires some actual effort and the lack of giving a fuck about calling out individuals instead of generalizing.

If it was so simple it wouldn't be an every day problem, dude.

It again. May seem simple - from your perspective.

 

[Mark]

If it was so simple it wouldn't be an every day problem, dude.

It again. May seem simple - from your perspective.

And it wouldn’t be an every day problem if people started doing something about it, which is the point I’ve been drilling this whole time. So, yes, from my perspective, there is a problem that requires a solution, and I’d like tho think that I laid out a pretty good start for how to solve the problem.

 

[TD]

Look at that. Mark solved world peace.

 

[Mark]

Look at that. Mark solved world peace.

Lemme know what that sarcasm solves. I thought this was a serious matter to you? My response was as serious as it gets, I don’t tread this issue lightly, and I’d appreciate it if you didn’t act like I do. I apologize if my “I agree, this is a problem, let’s do something about this” approach is too much for you, but, that’s what I’m willing to do to put a stop to this. You can passively do something about it by criticizing all men, generalizing, and dancing around the issues. Or, you could actively do something about it and demand that we raise our sons better, do better ourselves, and penalize those who don’t in the harshest way possible. I only see one of those ways making it a safer world for our daughters.

 

[TD]

I just don't think you realize how obnoxiously arrogant you sound.

But sure - go tell women that the solution to them fearing sexual assault by men is simple and tell me how that works out for you.

 

[Mark]

I just don't think you realize how obnoxiously arrogant you sound.

But sure - go tell women that the solution to them fearing sexual assault by men is simple and tell me how that works out for you.

Yes, I will gladly tell women that the solution to sexual assault is to raise our boys better, do better to become better men, and penalize those that don’t.

It’s still better than telling them “don’t worry, I made sure I told all men to be ashamed of themselves because of the actions of some online, we’ll shame those criminals into compliance in no time, because you know they’re paying very close attention to that matter and totally not waiting for their next victim”…

But, I’m arrogant? Right. I’m sitting here saying throw those fuckers in jail, string them up, etc. You’re over here talking about all men, white men, and everything else BUT sexual predators explicitly. Yet, I’m the one not posing a real solution to this? I’m the one being arrogant? I’m the one talking about privilege?

 

[TD]

This is honestly so typical of that American Alpha Male mindset that I can't help but shake my head and let out a disappointed chuckle.

 

[Mark]

This is honestly so typical of that American Alpha Male mindset that I can't help but shake my head and let out a disappointed chuckle.

That’s fine, I’ll wear that badge with honor if it means I protect the ones I love and innocent people when presented with the opportunity. I’ll never forget the gratitude I experienced those times I was at the right place at the right time, regardless of whether or not I get you or anyone else’s seal of approval for the methods I employ or the beliefs I have regarding how to deal with it.

I’d rather you judge me for being too harsh or having what you perceive to be an unrealistic approach to solving the issue than to have you judge me for not doing anything at all. At least we’re both in agreement that something must be done to stop it, the “what” is the problem we disagree on.

 

[TD]

You know what women want to be able to feel safe to men?

They want to be listened to, they want you to ask questions, they want you to care about their perspective.

They don't want to be told how to solve a problem that you don't know shit about when it comes to how they feel.

This conversation with women should really be going down like this:

Man: "Would you rather be in the woods with a bear or a woman?"
Woman: "Bear"
Man: "Why do you feel like that?"
Woman: Explains why
Man: "Is there anything I can do to help with the way you feel?"

Instead they're met with this constant barrage of being told what the solution is after years and years - in a country like America where quite frankly so much shit is going the opposite direction. And you think holding people accountable is going to make women suddenly feel like they can trust men more and they aren't going to be raped?

Fucking come on dude. Have this conversation with more women. It will help. I promise.

 

[TD]

I’ll never forget the gratitude I experienced those times I was at the right place at the right time,

And therein lies the problem. It's not about the gratitude or validation that you get for doing what is right. It's about trying to understand how women feel around men that could very easily sexually assault them at a moment's notice - it's about trying to place yourself in the shoes of the woman. Yes, she's grateful in that moment. But now she knows forever that it might happen to her again, that even though you were there, while there are some good men - there's many, many, terrible men out there.

We wonder why women have so many trust issues with men, and you're concerned with how grateful she was?

 

[Quagmire]

Forget it @TD, it's Chinatown

 

[Mark]

ofAnd therein lies the problem. It's not about the gratitude or validation that you get for doing what is right. It's about trying to understand how women feel around men that could very easily sexually assault them at a moment's notice - it's about trying to place yourself in the shoes of the woman. Yes, she's grateful in that moment. But now she knows forever that it might happen to her again, that even though you were there, while there are some good men - there's many, many, terrible men out there.

We wonder why women have so many trust issues with men, and you're concerned with how grateful she was?

No, I’m saying that the gratitude those women expressed to me means more to me than your criticisms expressed about how I view this issue. In those moments, in those instances, I knew I was doing the right thing and that’s all that matters. My intervention was because of my empathy… if I were in that position, I would have wanted someone to help me. For you to make it about me patting myself on the back, that shows me where your head is on this matter. You simply refuse to see the good in what I’m saying, you’re confusing me with people that do shit for clout or reputation, when the reality is that there are people out there who do good just because it’s the right thing to do the same way that there are people who do bad just because they are bad people.