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[Ben]

I'm out. I just don't enjoy the vitriol after every game, and it's not worth it to me.

 

[Jon]

In (9):
Benzine
GwJumpman
TD
Alu
VashTheStampede
Ben
Jawneh
Fool's Requiem
shortkut

I'm out. I just don't enjoy the vitriol after every game, and it's not worth it to me.

 

[shortkut]

I'm out. I just don't enjoy the vitriol after every game, and it's not worth it to me.

I don’t think there was any vitriol after this most recent game. I thought people were assuming we were being cocky and arrogant and all about making our own badge, when we didn’t even consider that and barely spoke about it. I didn’t like that people would think we were like that, but then multiple people explained they didn’t take it seriously

 

[Local Hero]

I don’t think there was any vitriol after this most recent game. I thought people were assuming we were being cocky and arrogant and all about making our own badge, when we didn’t even consider that and barely spoke about it. I didn’t like that people would think we were like that, but then multiple people explained they didn’t take it seriously

Agreed, of all the vitriolic wolf games we've had, this one was vitrolite. However, I respect Ben's decision if this isn't for him.

 

[Ben]

I don’t think there was any vitriol after this most recent game. I thought people were assuming we were being cocky and arrogant and all about making our own badge, when we didn’t even consider that and barely spoke about it. I didn’t like that people would think we were like that, but then multiple people explained they didn’t take it seriously

Eh. The reading numerous posts in dead-thread of "Oh I really hope they lose now" and "That's so arrogant", then getting a "bullshit" badge awarded over it, doesn't really convey the feeling that people didn't take it seriously. Even if that's true, I don't think it's super-healthy to (for any amount of time) think a large subset of friends are pissed at you, only to be told "lol jk".

Agreed, of all the vitriolic wolf games we've had, this one was vitrolite. However, I respect Ben's decision if this isn't for him.

I know there have been worse ones, like that first Cupid game, but it's less this specific game and more that making people angry just seems to be the sub-goal of all these Wolf games. Even if the roles themselves don't cause the strife, someone intentionally trying to rile up the player base will.

Just not my cup of tea, but best of luck.

 

[Ants!]

I totally get where Ben is coming from, and it’s a major reason why I’m not even tempted to come back to the games (besides just them being a huge time sink).

Being told that calling everyone idiots was just “being in character” just seemed like a major cop-out to me, and a weak one.

 

[TD]

Being told that calling everyone idiots was just “being in character” just seemed like a major cop-out to me, and a weak one.

I know this one is directed at me. Believe what you will, it genuinely was, but it's also why I've dramatically altered my playstyle.

 

[Raine]

then getting a "bullshit" badge awarded over it

Oh, my read was they wanted the B.S. Flag to be used for the Instigator Team Win at large because of all the... well, bullshit, they got fed this game. If that wasn't the intent, that's not cool.

I knew Zell was stirring the pot with those posts and that's why I presented Insta-Gator. 'Cause typically after the game is over a couple of folks, chiefly TD, use the dedicated badge thread to (attempt to) crowdsource ideas for any new/relevant badges. Unilaterally deciding on a badge usually results in getting a dubious badge instead and/or in addition to the final one.

I understand and respect where you're coming from. The wolf community does play rough; if you're not in the mood for that, it's definitely going to chafe.

Being told that calling everyone idiots was just “being in character” just seemed like a major cop-out to me, and a weak one.

This much was addressed, at least. Still a work in progress in other areas, but, we're trying.

 

[Ants!]

That was only one example.

 

[TD]

That was only one example.

Yet you chose the one specific one to target me who's always trying to find ways to be less serious about the game now after that incident because I care more about the people than the game.

Surely you can see why the comment bothered me.

 

[VashTheStampede]

Eh. The reading numerous posts in dead-thread of "Oh I really hope they lose now" and "That's so arrogant", then getting a "bullshit" badge awarded over it, doesn't really convey the feeling that people didn't take it seriously. Even if that's true, I don't think it's super-healthy to (for any amount of time) think a large subset of friends are pissed at you, only to be told "lol jk".

1. For my part, I had no strong feelings either way. I saw it more like when I'm watching a sporting event I have no stake in and I'm looking for a reason to root for one team over the other. If my comments were taken as more than that, then I truly apologize for my poor choice of words and their inability to properly convey intended tone.

2. I thought the flag badge idea was gentle ribbing and didn't expect it to actually be awarded. Didn't know it even happened until this post.

3. I totally get how you feel though. I remember on a couple of occasions once I had access to the Dead thread, seeing people making comments about how I "ruined the game" and it made me feel super shitty. Then afterwards we talked stuff out and I realized there was no true harm or disrespect meant. I hope this can be a similar situation.

 

[Ants!]

Yet you chose the one specific one to target me who's always trying to find ways to be less serious about the game now after that incident because I care more about the people than the game.

Surely you can see why the comment bothered me.

I intentionally avoided dropping names, and I wasn’t singling you out. It was just the most prominent example in my memory. I haven’t really been following the games for months now, so I’m glad to hear that you are playing better.

 

[TD]

Eh. The reading numerous posts in dead-thread of "Oh I really hope they lose now" and "That's so arrogant", then getting a "bullshit" badge awarded over it, doesn't really convey the feeling that people didn't take it seriously. Even if that's true, I don't think it's super-healthy to (for any amount of time) think a large subset of friends are pissed at you, only to be told "lol jk".

I fully understand where you're coming from. It irked me a bit too but I told myself it was ribbing in an attempt to brush it off - but both you and kut have vocalized being upset about it.

I'm also acutely aware of the perspective that all this talk of cockiness, nerfing the Instigator - and more, could be considered as dismissive of the genuine effort that the trio put toward this game.

I'm sorry to see you exit the games, I'll miss playing with you, but I understand. I hope to see you wander your way back to us one day - but even if not, I'm happy you're engaged in D&D which you are clearly very passionate about.

 

[VashTheStampede]

That was only one example.

And to piggyback on this, TD wasn't even the only one guilty of it. Really don't think Ants was trying to call anyone out.

 

[TD]

In honour of Ben, my playstyle this game will be embracing the BS flag.

You have been warned.

 

[Ants!]

And to piggyback on this, TD wasn't even the only one guilty of it. Really don't think Ants was trying to call anyone out.

This also.

 

[TD]

And to piggyback on this, TD wasn't even the only one guilty of it. Really don't think Ants was trying to call anyone out.

And yet the specific example was referring to me.

 

[Advocate for Ants! Mouth]

And yet the specific example was referring to me.

I think Vash is saying you weren't the only person doing the specific thing mentioned.

 

[TD]

I think Vash is saying you weren't the only person doing the specific thing mentioned.

I understand.

But I also want everyone else to understand.

Ben feels attacked.
kut expressed displeasure with it.

Now someone who doesn't even play brings up a singular move that even if he doesn't drop names, the person he's referring to knows it's them.

I'm not just going to sit idlely and take it anymore.

 

[TD]

Perspective my friends.

It's important to consider it before you open your mouth.

 

[VashTheStampede]

When I think of someone doing exactly what Ants referred to, you're not the first person that comes to mind.

 

[TD]

When I think of someone doing exactly what Ants referred to, you're not the first person that comes to mind.

Except he's explicitly referring to your first mafia game with my clueless fuck/idiot rant to which he said he's not not going to play anymore to which I made an OOC comment that it was in character.

He then goes on to call it a major cop out.

Now when I call him on it, instead of taking accountability and apologizing, he's instead saying "well I didn't name anyone".

He didn't fucking have to.

This consistent occurrence of not considering your words and the implications, then even worse not owning up to them?

It's tiresome.

I'm out.

Nothing against you Zell, I appreciate you but I've had enough too.

 

[Advocate for Ants! Mouth]

We should probably avoid rehashing a bunch of things at this point though, unless they come up again. People have taken comments to heart and are trying to avoid things that have caused problems in the past.

Ants mentioned part of the reason he stopped playing months ago, but that he still has no desire to play now, because something else came up that caused Ben to make a similar decision.

I doubt either of the things that happened there will happen again, but it was soured enough for them to stay away regardless of changes that have been made. It doesn't matter if no one does it anymore, or if no one has done it for months, it happened before and had a lasting impression. It's fine to say "I don't want to play again because of this thing that happened because something might give me similar feelings to that time back then even if it's not the same thing."


I honestly don't know why it's so offensive to have a previous action that you've said you'll change called out as a reason for not playing still. If Christina/Vash said they never wanted to play again because of specific comments that happened in a cupid game I'll know it refers to me and Kut, and I'll know that I apologized and vowed to never go that far again. If I held that against them and said "but I've apologized!" Then it minimizes what they felt at the time and any fears they might have if it or something similar happening again. Instead I'll just let them know I'll happily wait until they're ready again or tell them it's fine if they'd rather not.

I also recognize they might not name me by name because they think I wouldn't do it again and wouldn't want to cause other/new people to start off with a negative view on me or my play style.


I also recognize that I might be different in how I think about things.

 

[Advocate for Ants! Mouth]

Except he's explicitly referring to your first mafia game with my clueless fuck/idiot rant to which he said he's not not going to play anymore to which I made an OOC comment that it was in character.

He then goes on to call it a major cop out.

Now when I call him on it, instead of taking accountability and apologizing, he's instead saying "well I didn't name anyone".

He didn't fucking have to.

This consistent occurrence of not considering your words and the implications, then even worse not owning up to them?

It's tiresome.

I'm out.

Nothing against you Zell, I appreciate you but I've had enough too.

Please read my post first. I mentioned a legit reason in it as to why people might not want to call others out by name when referring to play styles that should be avoided:

People who weren't around to see it can now see something not to do while not being given an instantly bad impression of other players.

 

[VashTheStampede]

So this has been productive.

 

[TD]

Please read my post first. I mentioned a legit reason in it as to why people might not want to call others out by name when referring to play styles that should be avoided:

People who weren't around to see it can now see something not to do while not being given an instantly bad impression of other players.

While I understand.

I was around.

I feel attacked and instead of ANYONE acknowledging it, it's once again dismissive.

 

[VashTheStampede]

While I understand.

I was around.

I feel attacked and instead of ANYONE acknowledging it, it's once again dismissive.

I had this whole post typed up trying to be a mediator and de-escalate but yeah, I imagine basically being called a liar would set me off similarly.

Go off, king.

 

[VashTheStampede]

(OK the "go off" part is a joke but yeah I can see why you'd be pissed)

 

[Advocate for Ants! Mouth]

While I understand.

I was around.

I feel attacked and instead of ANYONE acknowledging it, it's once again dismissive.

It's fine if it hit you harder. It sucks to be reminded that we hurt others, but it's incredibly important to remember that we were the ones who did it.

Other people have been trying to point out that you're taking more of the brunt for the initial actions than you should be. AKA saying you're going harder on yourself than you should.

Ants also acknowledged he was at least partially talking a bit about you when he said he was happy to hear you adjusted your play style since then.


Do you want him or others to specifically say he was definitely only referring to you with the comment, and then apologize for it? Legit question from me here.





However: if we want to stop having things like this happen where we end up talking about shit that was resolved months ago, we need to stop tagging people who said they're opted out. Their only frame of reference is what happened months ago.


For Ben's case: Zell didn't mean to make you all feel bad, but he probably shouldn't have brought up what you were talking about in your chat as it was happening. Or, he should have brought it up as "there wasn't an instigator badge so they were tossing some around, any thoughts on this?"

 

[shortkut]

Now someone who doesn't even play brings up a singular move that even if he doesn't drop names, the person he's referring to knows it's them

Honestly, I didn’t associate it with you at all. More recently it would have been Dean and others that came to mind

 

[TD]

I had this whole post typed up trying to be a mediator and de-escalate but yeah, I imagine basically being called a liar would set me off similarly.

Go off, king.

Ain't even worth going off, I'm just going to bow out and stick to the corners of GWF where I don't need to consistently deal with this.

 

[VashTheStampede]

Ain't even worth going off, I'm just going to bow out and stick to the corners of GWF where I don't need to consistently deal with this.

Hey if I give you access to my account can you play as me and get me a few more wins?

 

[TD]

Hey if I give you access to my account can you play as me and get me a few more wins?

This hits me in the feels.

Tubby and I once had a chat about switching accounts for a game for an experiment.

I miss him.

 

[TD]

Honestly, I didn’t associate it with you at all. More recently it would have been Dean and others that came to mind

Again, perspective.

If someone is feeling like they're being attacked, it's important how they are viewing it.

 

[VashTheStampede]

TashTheDampede

 

[Advocate for Ants! Mouth]

Again, perspective.

If someone is feeling like they're being attacked, it's important how they are viewing it.

Would a more appropriate response for you have been something like:

"Hey sorry if you think this was all about you. You were involved but not the only one and I didn't mean to make you feel singled out"

?

 

[TD]

Would a more appropriate response for you have been something like:

"Hey sorry if you think this was all about you. You were involved but not the only one and I didn't mean to make you feel singled out"

?

Yes.

Thank you for realizing that.

 

[shortkut]

Again, perspective.

If someone is feeling like they're being attacked, it's important how they are viewing it.

I agree and understand.

It’s important to remember that, especially when you consider the variations, ants had not played in 15+ games. He had not seen the growth or going through the conflict the rest of us have. His feelings on hit you and others were much then have no bearing on hour you are perceived now.

It’s also important to understand that ants might feel defensive and like he needs to defend his reasons for not wanting to play

 

[TD]

I agree and understand.

It’s important to remember that, especially when you consider the variations, ants had not played in 15+ games. He had not seen the growth or going through the conflict the rest of us have. His feelings on hit you and others were much then have no bearing on hour you are perceived now.

It’s also important to understand that ants might feel defensive and like he needs to defend his reasons for not wanting to play

It's also important to understand the choice of words of "major cop out".

 

[Mark]

I’m just gonna include this here, since I don’t know who’s paying attention to the dead thread anymore.

I blindly added the instigator badge when I was tagged. I’m not even aware of how/why it would be a shot at any one particular person or team of instigators. I just press the buttons when I’m tagged, so, my apologies if the badge caused any trouble.

 

[VashTheStampede]

ALL OF THAT SAID

Let's consider another perspective.

Let's take the perspective of someone who may have felt attacked by some of the gameplay of people calling others idiots and such like that.

Let's say they felt like absolute shit being treated that way.

Then when confronted about it, the person says "I was in character."

I think if I was in the first person's place it would sound a lot like the typical "it's just a joke bro" kind of thing that Ben was referring to earlier. Such claims of being in character might not ring true to them, because they feel attacked and aggrieved. It might sound like empty platitudes.

I think they should be able to speak their truth too.

THIS IS ALL HYPOTHETICAL

oh and completely unrelated I think that TD's gameplay ever since similar things happened has proven his point that it was just a tactic and no actual harm was meant

 

[Ben]

Oh, my read was they wanted the B.S. Flag to be used for the Instigator Team Win at large because of all the... well, bullshit, they got fed this game. If that wasn't the intent, that's not cool.

I knew Zell was stirring the pot with those posts and that's why I presented Insta-Gator. 'Cause typically after the game is over a couple of folks, chiefly TD, use the dedicated badge thread to (attempt to) crowdsource ideas for any new/relevant badges. Unilaterally deciding on a badge usually results in getting a dubious badge instead and/or in addition to the final one.

2. I thought the flag badge idea was gentle ribbing and didn't expect it to actually be awarded. Didn't know it even happened until this post.

I'm sure I missed a lot of context around that, being that I don't scour all the threads in here. From my perspective all I saw was the badge award notification and then Tommy's posts in the Aftercare thread seemingly upset by it. I'm certainly aware badges are used as a form of ribbing, but with the existing belief that everyone was annoyed I just took it as a more pointed barb.

If the community at large doesn't like the badge I made without democratic input, it can be changed.

1. For my part, I had no strong feelings either way. I saw it more like when I'm watching a sporting event I have no stake in and I'm looking for a reason to root for one team over the other. If my comments were taken as more than that, then I truly apologize for my poor choice of words and their inability to properly convey intended tone.

[...]

3. I totally get how you feel though. I remember on a couple of occasions once I had access to the Dead thread, seeing people making comments about how I "ruined the game" and it made me feel super shitty. Then afterwards we talked stuff out and I realized there was no true harm or disrespect meant. I hope this can be a similar situation.

No worries. Reading tone on the internet is super difficult, but when it's super easy to misconstrue someone's intentions or attitude, it just seems smarter to avoid situations that could provoke that. I just don't have it in me to spend time gauging whether the people I respect are really mad or just pretend mad.

I fully understand where you're coming from. It irked me a bit too but I told myself it was ribbing in an attempt to brush it off - but both you and kut have vocalized being upset about it.

I'm also acutely aware of the perspective that all this talk of cockiness, nerfing the Instigator - and more, could be considered as dismissive of the genuine effort that the trio put toward this game.

I'm sorry to see you exit the games, I'll miss playing with you, but I understand. I hope to see you wander your way back to us one day - but even if not, I'm happy you're engaged in D&D which you are clearly very passionate about.

I understand.

But I also want everyone else to understand.

Ben feels attacked.
kut expressed displeasure with it.

Now someone who doesn't even play brings up a singular move that even if he doesn't drop names, the person he's referring to knows it's them.

I'm not just going to sit idlely and take it anymore.

Certainly not trying to play victim here or anything. I know Wolf is Wolf, it's a game about murdering each other, emotions are going to get abraded and not everyone will share the same context at all times. I have the opinion that all of the third-faction roles that just exist to cause drama don't help it, but that's why I'm just opting not to play this one.

At least with D&D you can only truly be mad at the dice.

We should probably avoid rehashing a bunch of things at this point though, unless they come up again. People have taken comments to heart and are trying to avoid things that have caused problems in the past.

Rubbing salt into old wounds wasn't intentional, but it probably shows that none of those wounds have actually healed even over time. Even if the same thing doesn't happen again, it still causes general anxiety and paranoia that it or something else could.

Anyway, you're all cool folks and I just don't want a game marring that opinion.

 

[VashTheStampede]

At least with D&D you can only truly be mad at the dice.

Oh man you haven't lived until you've played a game with a toxic DM.

I assure you, you can get angry at more than dice.

 

[Local Hero]

Oh man you haven't lived until you've played a game with a toxic DM.

I assure you, you can get angry at more than dice.

I'm only angry at clouds.

Ah, shit, there they go again!

 

[VashTheStampede]

I'm only angry at clouds.

Ah, shit, there they go again!

 

[Jon]

Two things:

First -

I'm certainly aware badges are used as a form of ribbing, but with the existing belief that everyone was annoyed I just took it as a more pointed barb.

Pretty sure I am one that used the phrase "annoying" as part of the badge thing, and I want to explain my perspective only once. I've no desire to have an argument about my intentions. I know my intentions. Other would hypothesize.

I wasn't upset by anything I witnessed in this game. As I was reminded of, I didn't play, so I don't have a right to be anyway. I root for underdogs. It's why I usually pull for the wolves or solo to win because I'm a sucker for underdog story. I despise watching sporting events where one team is winning big and starts celebrating before the clock hits zero. It's a pet peeve of MINE. It's no one else's problem and I do not expect change because it bothers me. It was explained after the game it wasn't a real discussion by you guys and I let it go. None of the three of you are THAT kind of person. Me hoping you'd lose was SPECIFICALLY around my underdog story. You guys, regardless of how well you played, had the cards fall your way. Those are the moments I watch to "see the mighty fall" per se. Nothing personal, and it would not have mattered WHO the trio was, I wanted them to lose.

I'm sorry if that's upsetting in any way shape or form. It's not intended to be.

Second - This discussion has really flared up the issues I have with the games, which are again MINE AND MINE ALONE. I didn't skip this because of something that someone else did in a game. It's what I did, and how I felt. This game, was fun to watch, but putting myself into it, I would have HATED being a part of it. And now the discussion again coming up about hurt feelings and past events... It immediately brought me back to "that place." And it's a place I'm not fond of at all.

I will be out this game. It's making me realize I still need time to evaluate. And throwing myself back in as a sense of obligation is just not a way to do it. Until I can see a game where I don't get this inevitable sense of doom and dread, I don't think I CAN play, let alone SHOULD play.

 

[Ben]

View attachment 8632

Dude is just walking Strife.

 

[VashTheStampede]

Feels relevant

 

[VashTheStampede]

I will be severely disappointed with several of you if we can't get enough players and I didn't even get to participate in the last game.

Pretty selfish of you, IMO.

 

[shortkut]

I’m just gonna include this here, since I don’t know who’s paying attention to the dead thread anymore.

I blindly added the instigator badge when I was tagged. I’m not even aware of how/why it would be a shot at any one particular person or team of instigators. I just press the buttons when I’m tagged, so, my apologies if the badge caused any trouble.

By the time you were tagged, to me at least, it was obviously a joke

At least with D&D you can only truly be mad at the dice

Stupid dice not rolling double digits

I will be severely disappointed with several of you if we can't get enough players and I didn't even get to participate in the last game.

Pretty selfish of you, IMO.

next time don’t die the first night and you can play. Sounds like you didn’t think things through