Zell Wolf The Cemetary

[TD]

Ants providing a breakdown on role claims and missed like three of em.

 

[TD]

 

[Smacktard]

Thoughts:
Hulk posting too powerful. Why I die.
Three people claim check Raposa. Unlikely.
Raposa neutral.
Raposa instigator, and Benzine instigated.
Benzine wolf? Maybe.
Conjuror still in play, so why Raine say truth? No reason.

 

[TD]

Keep in mind - the Conjuror can take on the role of a dead player for one phase. Could've stolen kut as Spirit Seer for tonight and could steal you as Aura Seer tonight.

 

[Smacktard]

Ants fingered Jawneh, Local, and Alu (lol, hussy) as wolves. Jawneh strikes me as sus, Local too. Maybe Alu, but then there's Benzine.

I caught all the role claims so far, except Benzine's. He's claiming he knows Raposa is good, right? I don't see how he could know that unless he got Detective, Violinist, or Spirit seer, which would make that the final random claim.

 

[Smacktard]

what jawneh doin

 

[Smacktard]

"Jawneh said something really suspicious that definitely makes them sound like a wolf

So anyway, we all voting Alu or what?"

WHAT THE FUCK THE TOWN DOIN

Was Ants instigated with Jawneh? That's the only way I can explain this madness

 

[shortkut]

Question: I’ve been skimming the two threads, so I may have missed something… is vash on team instigator? Good play to sell out a wolf and get some instant credibility

 

[shortkut]

Also, what the fuck do the farmer and violinist roles do? @TD fetch me some descriptions

 

[Smacktard]

Question: I’ve been skimming the two threads, so I may have missed something… is vash on team instigator? Good play to sell out a wolf and get some instant credibility

Vash could be on team instigator. Jawneh's a wolf, maybe instigated, who knows. Ants could be instigated too, since he blatantly identified Jawneh as sus and then went "anyway voting for someone entirely random blol"

Also, what the fuck to the farmer and violinist roles do? @TD fetch me some descriptions

Farmer, literally nothing. Used to be known as "role-less villager" but was changed because that got confusing due to other role descriptions using "villager" to refer to anyone on team villager.

Violinist checks a player to see if they're the same team as the person who died the previous night. I died, and Tommy checked a different player, who he said is good.

 

[TD]

He's claiming he knows Raposa is good, right? I don't see how he could know that unless he got Detective, Violinist, or Spirit seer, which would make that the final random claim.

Keep in mind - the Conjuror can take on the role of a dead player for one phase. Could've stolen kut as Spirit Seer for tonight and could steal you as Aura Seer tonight.

 

[TD]

Also, what the fuck do the farmer and violinist roles do? @TD fetch me some descriptions

He's been my #1 suspicion for it since about 20 posts into the game. Could be completely wrong though.

 

[TD]

WHAT THE FUCK THE TOWN DOIN

This is what I scream to myself almost every game I play.

 

[TD]

Also, what the fuck do the farmer and violinist roles do? @TD fetch me some descriptions

Kelly covered this but as your personal dictionary:

Violinist
Aura: Good
At night, can check a player to see if they are the same team as the first player to die the previous night. Lynches occur at the end of the day for the purposes of this check. If nobody died the previous night, the Violinist cannot check anybody.

And yeah Farmer is vanilla townie. If anyone is claiming this and lying, bad move. This role is completely expendable.

 

[TD]

WHAT OH WHAT is the town doing!? Three suspects and they can't decide! THERE'S JAWNEH! - the Farmer, but wait we thought that was Ben? But WHAT IF Ben is not the farmer and lied to protect his identity as a powerful townie role!?

Their next two suspects- ALU AND LOCAL HERO! They are going with the assumption that they haven't claimed roles and NOBODY LIES - will it pay off, time will tell!

 

[TD]

Then there's the SHADOWIN TIME! Who's the target? A lot of role claims are out in the open. Who could it be!? VASH?? BENZINE?? ANTS?? I don't know about you but I have no idea!

 

[Christina]

I thought Jawneh waa claiming red lady. He was talking about being with Kelly. I have only been spot reading the main thread though.

 

[TD]

I thought Jawneh waa claiming red lady. He was talking about being with Kelly. I have only been spot reading the main thread though.

He flat out role claimed Farmer later in Day 2. His role claims are all over the place.

This means he's just making himself suspicious or purposefully misdirecting information for some reason.

 

[Raine]

Conjuror still in play, so why Raine say truth? No reason.

Are you calling me a liar? Rude!



Shit fuck how do you people post on mobile this is fucking awful. I feel like I’m on Wii all over again, except this time with a tiny screen instead of a 19 inch television. Uggghhh.

 

[Christina]

He flat out role claimed Farmer later in Day 2. His role claims are all over the place.

This means he's just making himself suspicious or purposefully misdirecting information for some reason.

How is he not the pick for lynch? What are they doing?

 

[TD]

Shit fuck how do you people post on mobile this is fucking awful. I feel like I’m on Wii all over again, except this time with a tiny screen instead of a 19 inch television. Uggghhh.

It's definitely slower and I spend too much time doing the tappa tap with my fings.

 

[Christina]

Shit fuck how do you people post on mobile this is fucking awful. I feel like I’m on Wii all over again, except this time with a tiny screen instead of a 19 inch television. Uggghhh.

By not knowing any better.

 

[TD]

How is he not the pick for lynch? What are they doing?

It seems to be where they are currently headed. Benzine said he'd vote him. Ants too (which is 3 votes).

Benzine suggested FR throws a rock at LH. If LH happens to be a wolf that could thwart the shadow again. If he happens to be a townie, well, it could make sure the shadow works.

 

[Raine]

Even doing Reactions is hard, this is cursed!

Stuck in a car for the next 3~4 hours so time to git gud.

 

[TD]

We have 524 posts in here and I have 254 of them.

 

[TD]

...is it possible that Jawneh is being purposefully silly because he doesn't have a great role and wants everyone to target him so the shadow fails?

 

[Smacktard]

It seems to be where they are currently headed. Benzine said he'd vote him. Ants too (which is 3 votes).

Benzine suggested FR throws a rock at LH. If LH happens to be a wolf that could thwart the shadow again. If he happens to be a townie, well, it could make sure the shadow works.

I think the anti-shadow vote is a lock with Ants' 3 votes... Unless he's instigated and is bluffing, but I feel like that could make him a target quickly.

I thought Jawneh waa claiming red lady. He was talking about being with Kelly. I have only been spot reading the main thread though.

Jawneh wanted me to visit and confirm his aura was good. His claims are all over the place and he's not making sense. I don't get the strategy from any perspective: wolf, townie, instigated, or instigator. He may as well be holding a giant sign that says "LYNCH ME!"

 

[TD]

Plot twist: Jawneh has one of the roles someone lied about and figured the best way to make the case is do what Jawneh literally does best... sacrifice himself.

He did it in the last FQ game and it basically won the town the game.

 

[Raine]

Question: I’ve been skimming the two threads, so I may have missed something… is vash on team instigator? Good play to sell out a wolf and get some instant credibility

I know who the instigated wolf is, and who the very likely instigated townie is, but only because I know who all of the wolves are and can piece things together.

Because of the Shadow Wolf, there would have been an extraordinarily small window in which things could have lined up. While living, I did not have any information and could not directly knock sense into anyone thinking killing me was wise.


…wait I’m a wolfie

I MEAN YES VASH IS TOTALLY A BADDIE AND THIS WAS OUR PLAN THE WHOLE TIME

 

[Raine]

No but really, please for the love of Baphomet let Ants have been instigated. The Bully as a hard counter to Shadow Wolf is bad enough, a Word of God lynch machine is just fucking fucked.

…I mean if I want to rant a bit, and it’s me so of course I do, the wolves lost full stop Night 0. Preemptively: I appreciate what Zell does, I’m not trying to give him specifically a hard time… BUT BOY DO I HAVE GAMING OPINIONS

Spoiler: She’s trapped in a car this can’t end well

Two Spirit Seers and Preacher as the only contestable random roles is… bad. And no functional RK means speed is not an available option.

I can legitimately tell you that in the ~2 hours the wolves had to try and read roles and hash out a finicky Day 1 plan going on zero information, none of us noticed there was no guaranteed Spirit Seer. And we can talk about the theoretical effectiveness of that role and whether or not we should kill it until we’re blue in the face. In point of actual fact: A Spirit Seer killed me. Without extreme overlap, 2 Spirit Seers check a third of the player count by start of Day 2. Without factoring in things they can safely take at face value - Word of God roles, Priests/Gunners post-action, etc.

I obviously ain’t gonna tell you who the other wolves are. But if the town kills a wolf today, and that dead wolf isn’t the instigated one, by the time daytime wolf chat is available there will only be a single living wolf anyway. Ohh, wow, super, they can directly chat with the other sorta-wolf they can’t win with to discuss things by proxy with a Serial Killer that is incapable of killing. Amazing.

Shadow Wolf is 100% a bad, self-destructive role outside of very narrow, specific framing. Having two of them and no Alpha is fucking awful. The singular advantage the wolves consistently have is their ability to communicate and adapt; this role removes that. Why? Where’s the crippling drawback of their hard counters, of which there are multiple? The Bully’s secondary function as a killer doesn’t even have a drawback if they’re wrong.

I need more tables.

 

[Zell 17]

No but really, please for the love of Baphomet let Ants have been instigated. The Bully as a hard counter to Shadow Wolf is bad enough, a Word of God lynch machine is just fucking fucked.

…I mean if I want to rant a bit, and it’s me so of course I do, the wolves lost full stop Night 0. Preemptively: I appreciate what Zell does, I’m not trying to give him specifically a hard time… BUT BOY DO I HAVE GAMING OPINIONS

Spoiler: She’s trapped in a car this can’t end well

Two Spirit Seers and Preacher as the only contestable random roles is… bad. And no functional RK means speed is not an available option.

I can legitimately tell you that in the ~2 hours the wolves had to try and read roles and hash out a finicky Day 1 plan going on zero information, none of us noticed there was no guaranteed Spirit Seer. And we can talk about the theoretical effectiveness of that role and whether or not we should kill it until we’re blue in the face. In point of actual fact: A Spirit Seer killed me. Without extreme overlap, 2 Spirit Seers check a third of the player count by start of Day 2. Without factoring in things they can safely take at face value - Word of God roles, Priests/Gunners post-action, etc.

I obviously ain’t gonna tell you who the other wolves are. But if the town kills a wolf today, and that dead wolf isn’t the instigated one, by the time daytime wolf chat is available there will only be a single living wolf anyway. Ohh, wow, super, they can directly chat with the other sorta-wolf they can’t win with to discuss things by proxy with a Serial Killer that is incapable of killing. Amazing.

Shadow Wolf is 100% a bad, self-destructive role outside of very narrow, specific framing. Having two of them and no Alpha is fucking awful. The singular advantage the wolves consistently have is their ability to communicate and adapt; this role removes that. Why? Where’s the crippling drawback of their hard counters, of which there are multiple? The Bully’s secondary function as a killer doesn’t even have a drawback if they’re wrong.

I need more tables.

Preacher is actually a good draw for the wolves, TYPICALLY. Because it is very hard to prove. They have a 6% chance of gaining an extra vote that first day. Of course, they got it.

Also you didn't get found by the spirit seer. You AND Ben did. Typically that would result in you guys being able to argue about who has the better claim. Both would be unprovable. But, more bad luck, Ben got checked by the ONLY Aura seer claim in the game, and no wolves were willing to fake Aura seer in order to cast doubt on the seer's claims. So you were sunk.

I know this is the 6th game, but it bears repeating...in the absence of fake information, the seers are unstoppable. With sufficient fake information, the seers are a liability.

Shadow wolf CAN be an extremely powerful role. This town's only method of killing people is basically a lynch. A shadow wolf gives the evils the ability to basically steal a kill from the town and use it on whomever they like. But, you have to be well-organized. And if the town is more organized than the wolves, you might still lose.

 

[Christina]

Raine, I hope you do not take this poorly what I am about to say as I do not mean it that way. Your posts read like the voice in my head talks when I'm in a more manic state. So in that regard they give a comforting feeling. But the posts are not what the voice would say only how they say it. So in that regard they are kind of off putting. I am now left wondering if this is how I sound when I talk to myself out loud all the time. I need Vash to die to come and confirm or deny.

 

[Zell 17]

I want the rants. I like the feedback! Believe it or not it does lead to some changes.

I already mentioned if this game continues to be an ass-kicking I'm gonna make some more drastic changes. I may actually do the full-random lineup I posted before.

 

[Zell 17]

Maybe at the start of wolf chat I need to just say: "Before I give you a night kill, you must all tell me what role you will claim. Two of them must be seer roles" and see what happens

 

[Zell 17]

Cole and I have had discussions on this and balance and his main argument is that he thinks most of the group is not really capable of lying and thus the game will always be unbalanced.

It's something that I'm willing to consider. It's been 6 games. That's why now I'm willing to be more...forceful in adjustments

 

[Raine]

Raine, I hope you do not take this poorly what I am about to say as I do not mean it that way.

Oh no, not at all!

With me, for better or worse, what you see is what you get - I am the manic voice in my head. No filters, just streams of thought written roughly how they’d be said.

 

[Raine]

I’ll rant more at clouds in your general direction in a bit, Zell. Finally hitting the road again in a moment. Freedom to still go into work, why you no here yet weekend?!

 

[Christina]

Cole and I have had discussions on this and balance and his main argument is that he thinks most of the group is not really capable of lying and thus the game will always be unbalanced.

It's something that I'm willing to consider. It's been 6 games. That's why now I'm willing to be more...forceful in adjustments

I was going to say something like this. I assume most of us our not conartist type people. I don't think it's the lying, it's the getting caught in a lie. People will lie but they are trying to do it in a way so that they can't get caught in it. It's easy to forget that the townies don't know what you know. A conarts type would love this and use this to their advantage. Tell whatever lie they want and by the time anybodys figured that out they are long gone. In a game of 16, the wolves just need 8 people dead, so 4 days and nights of townie only kills. Throw in other random kills or a wolf kill and that number goes up and down a little. You don't need to BS your way forever, but just long enough to even the numbers.

 

[Raine]

So from an outside perspective - TD is too biased - how would you rank my false Spirit Seer claim back in... Game 3, was it?

Ultimately I think I played that the best way possible, short of like Ants dying at some point before the burnination to provide further +1Rep. But with every advantage under the sun - Confusion Wolf is totally my favorite role, btw - and a completely stacked team, we were utterly undone. Victory was not actually attainable from the onset with those dousings.

And it's really been a similar thought each game. I know a couple people have quit, and others have expressed unhappiness at how their performance is portrayed by those outside the group but otherwise have kept with it. But like... more often than not, I don't think they're wrong? Like even if they shored up the weak spots, reduced mistakes to zero, I still don't think victory was possible from a practical perspective in the games I participated in/actually paid attention to. (So, not the last one and a half or so)

Spoiler: OLAWD IT'S WORDS

Preacher is actually a good draw for the wolves, TYPICALLY. Because it is very hard to prove. They have a 6% chance of gaining an extra vote that first day. Of course, they got it.

Silliness aside, sure. But the issue with our group is that the core really, really, really knows how one another think and act. Without the random number thing, for example, a Preacher would never realistically have a 6% chance of landing it correctly.

Unless the wolf was me, and I felt like exerting pressure (spoiler: I won't), and coerced them into killing someone... not unexpected, but more tactically-minded, we'll say. So not the usual "kill Cole/shortkut/canadaguy/Ants/FRforlulz" thing.

Like if Ants isn't instigated, and went with Smacktard/Aura Seer as "this person is going to die" - whether he consciously understands why or not, there are factors (like [REDACTED] being [REDACTED] and [REDACTED]) that lead him to that. Those factors won't exist for true randoms playing with one another, y'know? And... I'm not sure, without a sufficiently large enough number of games played, all of that minutiae can be appreciated by a host trying to balance roles.

And, y'know, we can use that to our advantage if the timing works too. Vash just happens to Seer check me, but "randomly?" That's pretty convenient with our track record. Ben is a believable "lie" too. Too many layers to consider.

Also you didn't get found by the spirit seer. You AND Ben did. Typically that would result in you guys being able to argue about who has the better claim. Both would be unprovable. But, more bad luck, Ben got checked by the ONLY Aura seer claim in the game, and no wolves were willing to fake Aura seer in order to cast doubt on the seer's claims. So you were sunk.

Well yes, absolutely. But let's explore the outcomes a moment, to highlight the above:

- In the scenario you put forward, [REDACTED] comes out as an Aura Seer and "vindicates" me. Two wolves are now in the direct line of fire, but the argument becomes more even. In this scenario, ultimately, you get: Avenger versus Farmer. (Maybe I change this to something else with more time + planning + Aura Seer claim happening before arrival, but...) What our group did is what will always happen - town kills Avenger, Avenger explodes Farmer (minus FR's GODDAMN ROCK), town lynches whichever Aura Seer had the bad claim next day. Somethingsomething Shaman, but, we literally have to remove the Shadow Wolf powers to be able to converse and adapt. In fact not being able to communicate is contrary to what the Shadow Wolf should do anyway - if the town is leaning towards someone that's net positive for your cause, you can't really capitalize on that behind the scenes.

- Without the Aura Seer claim, it's still Day 2 at best without the Shadow Wolf. But in this exact scenario, again, best case scenario is: I convince the town, including not taking a rock to the face, and Berserk kill we'll say Vash. This is Night 0 Kill + Day 1 Lynch (not Ben) + Night 1 Kill + ??? Berserk + (probably) Day 2 Lynch (not Ben). So -5~7 players. 8~11 remain. Better odds, but, it's the literal perfect scenario and winning is still in doubt because of the turncoat and one of the non-turncoat wolves being in the crosshairs still (if not already double rocked post-Berserk use). Try as I might, the numbers just never work with what I know and see about everyone.

I want the rants. I like the feedback! Believe it or not it does lead to some changes.

I already mentioned if this game continues to be an ass-kicking I'm gonna make some more drastic changes. I may actually do the full-random lineup I posted before.

The board is already solved, there's no out. So probably best to start hammering out details.

I do like the idea of roles specifically having counters, mind you. But it's too stacked. The Bully shouldn't be both a guaranteed disruptor, a (bad) killer (with no downsides) and an anti-Shadow Wolf. It does too much. Similarly, the Preacher can be fine as a Strong Role. But I don't think any Random Roles, no matter how many many randoms there are, should be able to easily prove themselves. And none, in any scenario whatsoever, should be able to achieve Word of God status.

Cole and I have had discussions on this and balance and his main argument is that he thinks most of the group is not really capable of lying and thus the game will always be unbalanced.

This is definitely a thing.

Cole would know better than most, if he can remember back far enough. Just ask him how many games back on the original board were just him, TD and Sabat browbeating the shit out of each other, with assists from the would-be A/B-tier, and the town just kind of following whichever of them seemed more convincing at the time. And those were games without large numbers of Power Roles and basically zero role claiming.

What we do here is just play Follow the Power Role. I... can't say too much... probably? Like I mean even Kelly probably shouldn't have read most of this thread on the off-chance Benzine doesn't die and winds up talking to the dead.

But let's just say that I did sniff Vash quite inappropriately once and found a wolfie. And a couple of others, like Cole and canadaguy, have made great reads while having killing roles. These are much more the exception than the rule though.

 

[TD]

So from an outside perspective - TD is too biased - how would you rank my false Spirit Seer claim back in... Game 3, was it?

I may be biased but it was a top 2 wolf play I've seen in Zell games.

 

[TD]

I may actually do the full-random lineup I posted before.

Full random is overkill. You suggested it way earlier but even changing it from 3 RV to 4 RV could make a big difference.

 

[TD]

Cole would know better than most, if he can remember back far enough. Just ask him how many games back on the original board were just him, TD and Sabat browbeating the shit out of each other, with assists from the would-be A/B-tier, and the town just kind of following whichever of them seemed more convincing at the time. And those were games without large numbers of Power Roles and basically zero role claiming.

Now THAT brings back memories.

 

[Zell 17]

- In the scenario you put forward, [REDACTED] comes out as an Aura Seer and "vindicates" me. Two wolves are now in the direct line of fire, but the argument becomes more even. In this scenario, ultimately, you get: Avenger versus Farmer. (Maybe I change this to something else with more time + planning + Aura Seer claim happening before arrival, but...) What our group did is what will always happen - town kills Avenger, Avenger explodes Farmer (minus FR's GODDAMN ROCK), town lynches whichever Aura Seer had the bad claim next day. Somethingsomething Shaman, but, we literally have to remove the Shadow Wolf powers to be able to converse and adapt. In fact not being able to communicate is contrary to what the Shadow Wolf should do anyway - if the town is leaning towards someone that's net positive for your cause, you can't really capitalize on that behind the scenes.

Nah you wouldn't want a fake Aura seer to vindicate you imo. My opinion would be to have them call someone else evil. Your whole goal as a berserk wolf is to basically make sure you survive day 1 and can cause chaos the next night. Claiming avenger when you + someone else show red wouldn't help either, because then the easy village solution is to just say "Let's vote the avenger and if we are wrong we still get a wolf". Better to claim something really valuable, like Conjuror or Flagger. Someone else would counter you but you get two advantages:

1) You find out who the real Conjuror/Flagger is for night time kills
2) It will make the village hesitant to vote you that day. And you only need to survive a day!

 

[TD]

The beauty of false role claims as wolves, if you claim the best roles the town will hesitate to kill you and it might force the other ones to reveal themselves.

If you do it before they do?
Ooh boy.

 

[Christina]

So say you claim aura seer day 1. The real aura seer tries to call you on you BS. Even if they don't get lynched and the wolfs instead ise that info to night kill them. The moment it shows the aura seer dies, you are guaranteed lynched next. That's why people have a big hang up on role claiming. If you were to hide the roles of who died, than people would be lying and claiming up a storm, but that gives the town nothing to figure out who's lying to them outside a seer. A wolf loss is bigger than a town loss, so it doesn't feel worth the risk.

 

[Zell 17]

So say you claim aura seer day 1. The real aura seer tries to call you on you BS. Even if they don't get lynched and the wolfs instead ise that info to night kill them. The moment it shows the aura seer dies, you are guaranteed lynched next.

Why? We had a Spirit Seer die night 1 in this game and the town immediately believed that the next Spirit Seer was real.

 

[TD]

The moment it shows the aura seer dies, you are guaranteed lynched next.

We've had games with a fixed seer and 2 random seers too though.

The logic of 2 of the same role can't exist although it has happened in nearly every game should not mean you're guilty.

Last game we even had 2 witches.

As long as you aren't calling the real seer evil, it won't look as bad and even that there's ways around.

 

[Christina]

Why? We had a Spirit Seer die night 1 in this game and the town immediately believed that the next Spirit Seer was real.

Because the random roles were still there to account for it. That's why that's what people are trying to use to hide in. But once their are 4 people claiming what has to be a random role, you have a wolf in sights. How do you have 4 wolfs using 3 random spots to hide?

 

[Zell 17]

Also I wouldn't ever kill someone who had the same role that I'm claiming. Make the town figure it out, I won't do it for them.

 

[TD]

Another thing I've grown to learn as a wolf as I've played:

- Don't kill the random villager roles unless they're an imminent threat
- Don't use the ability of at least one random werewolf for as long as possible if it gets revealed to the town