There isn't really any fighting that I know of, just some awkward conversations and a lot of disagreements. The closest thing we had to actual "fighting" IMO was when Raine and Benzine disagreed over the game, but that was before or around the time TD left, so a while ago.
I guess I would like to share with him that immediately after he left, constructive conversation started about whether the games could be changed/how to change the games with the same objective as the one he laid out (to avoid losing more people due to hurt feelings/other issues), and it is a lot easier to change a system while being part of it than it is to change it from the outside, so I for one would welcome his input if/when he comes back.
I did mention to him that in the immediate aftermath, there was a lot of reflection and discussion about how to best handle these games going forward.
From my response:
It could be blamed on a number of reasons, but instead of speculate, I'll just assume that people took the conflicts for granted assuming everyone would lick their wounds and move on. It's the most sound explanation after the fact, based on what I've read on the forums in the wake of this.
and later on in the same message:
In closing, I hope that this hiatus proves to be beneficial to you, and that you're able to come back at some point and see the impact that your presence and your absence brings to the place. I don't think you'll be disappointed, and I think you'll be able to take pride in the fact that people are working diligently on not just your behalf but everyone's to bring this place back to what it should be. I hope that you enjoy the time you're getting with your family, and that the holidays and new year are good for you, all things considered.
No, this all isn’t necessarily relevant to what you’re commenting on specifically, but I want to use this opening to include this part of the message before I get into later posts in this thread from other members.
Certainly I don't think any lasting animosity exists, and certainly not towards TD
Absolutely not, and I think the primary motivating factor for his departure wasn’t necessarily the potential outcome of the game or the players, but the fact that what is supposed to be an escape from reality has rubbed lines with reality in a way that NO ONE undergoing the amount personal struggles he’s undergoing would be able to contend with without struggling to see the line. I wouldn’t say that anyone here would deliberately kick another when they’re down, but I would certainly say that, as
@Dean said, there are two separate layers to what’s going on here. One being the gameplay and disagreements with that, and another being TD’s personal life putting him in a position of vulnerability.
Uhhhh, I fuckin love TD, but I will admit I'm kind of confused by this. "If they continue to be played in the manner they are" by the person who basically drove the narrative any game they were in. I am kind of tired of blaming the game of deception as the reason why people are feeling deceived in a game of lying and convincing people you're not a thing that you might be. "heavy consideration for how these games are played" - as in what? More moderation? More rules? What he means by this, I'm not sure. But as an adult on an internet forum, I have always taken heavy consideration for how these games are played. Why is this on the rest of the community now? The guy that triple crossed his teammates is telling us to be more careful? Oh okay!
I don’t think it’s an issue of consideration for the rules, moderation, or anything of that sort. I think it’s more an issue of a moral consideration. The gameplay and personal elements are, and have intersected on multiple occasions, and I think that he’s speaking generally, and not just regarding the personal effect it has had on him this time around.
I have a hard time seeing how playing a game is supposed to somehow moderate the emotions and feelings of another individual. Three people left wolf games because three people have a harder time managing their emotions than others. Sorry, that's just how I see it. I have absolutely no problem having complete control of how I feel. I understand that's almost a rarity these days, and I'm NOT bragging. I just don't understand why people quitting means things have to change. The majority of people are still enjoying these games.
So this is what I mean, because three people had a hard time, the forum administration feels they need to ... step in? Really? To split up wolf games? We all hear how pretty much backwards that sounds, right? It's one thing if we were all 15 year olds that NEEDED moderation, but I am 33 years old. I don't need a moderation team making sure I'm not playing too much wolf. And this feedback is NOT PERSONAL TO YOU MARK/CRYSTAL. It is completely generalized as if both of you were not even involved in the decision making process. It's just that I had thought by this point in our lives, when something is too much, we know to walk away.
Nobody forced TD to make a grand scheme, he wanted to play to his win condition. Nothing was wrong with Dean not wanting to lie down and get fucked, he found the one loophole and pushed for it. Rather than be an adult and accept the W isn't happening your way, TD did not like the outcome of the game and left entirely. That's just 100% on TD, I'm sorry. It's not on me or anyone else that was playing. But now TD's departure is the third and for whatever reason, the forum decides they might have to make changes going forward. Again, nothing personal, I just don't see how we got here.
I say forget about it at this point, and especially after this. I'm starting to get frustrated now.
Well if he didn't quit in rage he would see that we all came together and hashed shit out at the end, primarily making sure everyone was okay. So hearing from a PM that we need to be more considerate in games going forward, as if somehow this onus is on me, us, or the forums, is kind of infuriating.
If there was pretty much one person to make different choices in games, it is him. Even after quitting the forum, he still is unable to resist giving his two cents about how wolf games should be played. It is clearly too much for him right now, and he is not in a good head space. But if the way the forum operates is changed based on the reactions of three individuals that is not in any way because of the forums, these games will cease to exist soon enough.
I think you’re misunderstanding the intent behind this thread. It’s not to rehash anything, and it’s not to play a blame game to make the people still here feel some kind of way because of the people that aren’t presently. It’s also not an indication that “administration” is coming in to clear house and lay down the law. This was simply to let y’all know that we’ve heard from TD, and to share his thoughts he wanted to share in the event that there was still conflict going on… which he explicitly stated he does not want. I don’t believe for a second that he wants to hear about us all arguing over this, and at the very most… he wants it to be exactly what it has already been in his absence, people collectively trying to avoid losing another friend over a game.
I'm guessing to notify people who had concerns about TD that he's okay and may rejoin us in the future.
This is 100% true.
And for the record,
@VashTheStampede, I see there being two ENTIRELY SEPARATE ISSUES at hand here.
There is issue #1 that
@Tommy Boy and I seem to have the biggest problem with, along with Benzine and others, and that's the "real reason" TD left. This is going to cost me my friendship with TD, but at this point, I'm done pulling punches.
TD didn't leave over some moral or ethical dilemma. Raine isn't having some sympathetic change of heart about these games. They're both manipulators (in the game, not talking about real life). They both get off on the game mechanics and psychology and shit.
TD and Raine are pissed they couldn't do what they wanted to do, win the way they wanted, etc. it goes back to what Zell said; they made a miscalculation and I found a loophole.
If Raine had a genuine problem with poor sportsmanship, she wouldn't have continued to add to her posts how she didn't agree with the wolves winning and felt like she and TD won, etc.
Issue number two is the emotional manipulation and bringing real world issues into a fucking game and making people feel shitty. That covers a lot of ground, whether it's the shit I did (which was NOT on purpose because to be honest, Vash, I didn't even know the extent until after it was too late), or calling people stupid and bullying them, or whatever else
I can only comment from a non-player perspective, but I can see the overlap of these two layers we’re talking about here. Sure, we can speculate that they could be upset about the outcome of the in-game plays or the game in general, but think about it from his perspective… He’s trying to have fun with a game, and yeah he might have went harder with plotting this game than others, but has anyone stopped to question why that might be? I won’t pretend to be in any of y’all’s heads, in-game or personally, but I can speak from personal experiences that more often than not… when I’m experiencing stressful circumstances in my life, I tend to pour a little heavier into my outlets to compensate for it. Of course, this is my speculation, but it’s also rooted in the fact that if I were fucking with you, this person, that person, or the other in a game… I wouldn’t go out of my way to reach out to the admins of the forum I just left to clear the air and send my well wishes to everyone that I just deliberately tried to fuck over in a game. I’d just walk away and be done with it and y’all. However, he cares about this community and the people in it, and even though he’s dealing with stuff in his personal life… he still found it in him to reach out. I simply don’t know enough about the wolf games to comment on his play style throughout, but I’d like to think that if roles were reversed… he’d feel terrible if he were the one to lead someone else to leave, and that’s the point that I’d like to stick to rather than comment on his play style.
I'll try my best to refrain from future posting about this shit, here or elsewhere. I am just getting irritated at the hypocrisy of people acting morally superior, or whatever else.
It's one thing to be disgusted when you didn't condone me stumbling onto some real issues and using them in the game to manipulate players. I understand and even agree.
It's a different issue (one of hypocrisy) when someone rage quits because they aren't winning the way they want and then tries to spin it as if they are "concerned about how the games are affecting the mental health of players" or some bullshit.
The problem is, those things aren’t mutually exclusive. You CAN rage quit when you’ve had enough and still care about how it’s affecting other people, because you recognize how it affects you. He could have been dead wrong as far as I’m concerned, but his reaching out does show his degree of concern for the people beyond the characters they portray in a game. It could be really as simple as recognizing from his own experiences that they affect people, and he’s not wrong for that assessment considering the overall tone of even this thread that was intended to be a “hey, we heard from him, he might be coming back after the holidays and after emotions calm, he’d be willing to talk it out if necessary, but most importantly… he doesn’t want y’all arguing” kind of message. I realized quickly when lurking through the game threads that his departure hit people a lot more than others, and I owe it to y’all to help mend fences where and when I can.
@Mark maybe just get rid of this thread
having the opposite effect than intended
pretty clear which way the popular opinion stands on the subject
Nah, because I’m not playing the game where we lock threads and nothing gets resolved. The intent of this thread is to get everyone back on the same page as people so we don’t have to get to a point where we gotta be admins or mods or whatever to get a point across. We gotta do better to pick up on the cues of each other, and it wouldn’t kill anyone to be cognizant of the fact that yes, even a game can have unintended consequences. Yes, even a game where lying and deceit is at the forefront of the mechanics, there’s something more important and even more at the forefront of that… actual fuckin’ people with their own lives and their own shit that they’re going through that MAY intersect.
If it was JUST TD mad about losing and nothing going on in his personal life, I’m positive that it wouldn’t have affected him the way that it did. From the outside, it’s easy to see how something so simple can become the straw that broke the camel’s back.
I'll agree with this, mostly.
It was good to hear from TD and that he hasn't decided to fully leave yet, giving the possibility to come back right in there.
I think the problem is stemming from it being too soon to re-litigate everything that just happened, and it seems like that's the only thing that will happen if the game is brought up again. Need some time, perhaps after the holidays when people have had some time between when it ended and now, before being able to talk through the game without going into it like that.
See, that’s the problem. Nowhere did I begin any litigation over this or lay down any inferences of a change beyond “something’s gotta give”, which is nothing unfamiliar to anyone here, and if it is… they’re not paying close enough attention. When we’ve lost more members to a game than some of the controversial topics and debates that have been discussed here, it’s an issue that commands the attention of everyone involved from the players to the staff. Each time we’ve had a member leave because of the wolf games, there has been chatter about doing this or doing that, and although some changes have been made, issues still arise. This thread was supposed to simply ease people’s minds about TD. I had reached out to a couple individuals privately before I posted it, and then decided that it would probably be best to try and ease some of the concerns that were present here since this is where it all went down. We promised to be transparent, and this is the most transparent I can be without copying and pasting a direct email. I figured it would do everyone some good to hear that we heard from him and he may make a return after things calm down for him. Everyone has already begun moving on, plotting new games, and even playing new games. Couple that with news of a potential return of someone y’all didn’t really want to see leave and I expected to return to this thread to see good vibes for TD and a collective “we’re gonna be alright” for the rest of the community, but… yeah.
