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Zell Wolf GWF Wolf - Zell's Version Day 2 + Night 3

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Kat

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I need to work soon, I only had time to read page 4, sorry if I'm repeating things. Damn y'all in later time zones already posting so much.

i disagree. yes you "saved us a potion", but lynching him does nothing but good things for you. the serial killer is off the board, and getting to claim now that you "saved us a potion" is a convenient ally when we definitely WERENT going to be lynching him. In fact when I made my post suggesting it be discussed, it was to illicit t his exact response. To see who went along with it. there was no reason to attempt to lynch Ants OR Fool, there wasn't enough informaiton. This is also why I knew for a fact Fool was guilty, because he tried to get us to lynch him.
I mean, I didn't save anything because we didn't lynch. I'm just saying you were already planning to kill him, so my saying he's a serial killer isn't going to make him more dead. I'm not saying it was super helpful, just insightful and not helpful to the wolves. I feel comfortable with my declaration of being confident enough he wasn't the fool to lynch him, my reasoning was sound.

You can disagree, of course, and maybe I did just get lucky. I haven't gotten to play this much and am maybe taking a bit too much pride in successfully figuring out someone's role.

there's no way they'd burn shaman on a random player of the game last night.
As stated, if they shamaned FQ then Vash definitely isn't a townie, which means he's lying about being seer, and then it wouldn't matter what FQs aura even is. So this defense of hers is just silly. There's almost no chance she's the fool.

absolutely did not pick up on Vash's clues, I have to go back and reread them.
Me either! I just saw them being called out. I do need to go back and check if the clues started before kut announced his check results.

I apologize for the rudeness, Kat, but I hadn't gotten a great read off of you. An okay one, but not a great one.

It's extremely interesting that after a bit of offense, you immediately point a finger at me. Am I a good scapegoat for you? I could be lying, but why would I?
I was just playing, I'm not really offended, don't worry. And obviously you would be lying because you're the fool or a wolf, duh. What kind of question is that?

Your "suspicion" of me wasn't any more threatening than the people saying I might be a wolf because I seem skilled. If anything, it's less, because you're saying I'm not contributing much and that makes me less of a potential threat. It's a little weird you feel threatened by my borderline conspiracy theory, though.

And I was active during the first day, just not until I finished driving. I had a bunch of posts and was around at night. I was commenting on Killfaces absence throughout the whole thing.
My bad if so, I missed most of the last ten pages yesterday and just assumed you were still gone. People were talking like you'd be on vacation for longer.

Alu announcing he has the "third extra" role is irrelevant effectively becsuse that could be LITERALLY any role...
I disagree, he claimed an optional role, which further narrows down who could be the doctor or gunner. That's helpful to the wolves and dangerous for those roles.

Gotta go work, good luck everyone.
 

finlandguy

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We need to save the Gunner kills for the exact same day. When we get two confirmed baddie roles, the Gunner takes them out and we can hopefully end the game
After I went back to read the role descriptions properly, the detailed one and not the one in the day1 thread, it does say there the gunner is revealed on use like Zell already confirmed, but also that the gunner can only kill once per day. So at some point we'll have to deal with playing save the gunner for a day or sacrifice a shot to oust the zerker.

Also @Zell 17 , how will the night skip work? Do all of us PM you to skip night 2 or just folks with night roles? Or do we all have to be naughty and post here after the day isnofficially over?
 
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After I went back to read the role descriptions properly, the detailed one and not the one in the day1 thread, it does say there the gunner is revealed on use like Zell already confirmed, but also that the gunner can only kill once per day. So at some point we'll have to deal with playing save the gunner for a day or sacrifice a shot to oust the zerker.

Also @Zell 17 , how will the night skip work? Do all of us PM you to skip night 2 or just folks with night roles? Or do we all have to be naughty and post here after the day isnofficially over?
Everybody. You will all get a PM asking as well.
 

Cole


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As stated, if they shamaned FQ then Vash definitely isn't a townie, which means he's lying about being seer, and then it wouldn't matter what FQs aura even is. So this defense of hers is just silly. There's almost no chance she's the fool.
yeah, it the bigger question is why they'd randomly shaman FQ
After I went back to read the role descriptions properly, the detailed one and not the one in the day1 thread, it does say there the gunner is revealed on use like Zell already confirmed, but also that the gunner can only kill once per day. So at some point we'll have to deal with playing save the gunner for a day or sacrifice a shot to oust the zerker.

Also @Zell 17 , how will the night skip work? Do all of us PM you to skip night 2 or just folks with night roles? Or do we all have to be naughty and post here after the day isnofficially over?
it's less votes to skip, so people with night actions can do that at the same time
 
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I'm simply looking for Tommy to explain his thoughts and feelings. I'm very interested.
I have zero thoughts and feelings. As soon as someone said I was suspicious, everyone keeps running with it. I wanted people to vote. Everyone said that was dumb with overwhelming sound. I said "oh" and did not want to force a vote anymore. It's really easy to pin me as the fool because you've been saying it the whole game and I haven't revealed my role like everyone else. I don't have a valid defense besides telling you my role, which I'm not going to do. I haven't accused anyone, pointed my finger, roused suspicion of anyone else. I've been constantly having to defend myself whenever I post. There is not much more I can say to defend myself besides revealing my role, and I'm not doing that. I'm not a wolf. I want the town to win. I don't want to lose from me wanting to vote the first day, but I really have nothing else I can say.

Voting for Fire Queen and to skip to night phase to not cause any delays. And despite what she said, you don't have to protect my pure heart. Do what you feel you need to do, but please everyone realize: I've been at the defense the entire game and I can't get anywhere else.
 

Ryan!

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I need to work soon, I only had time to read page 4, sorry if I'm repeating things. Damn y'all in later time zones already posting so much.


I mean, I didn't save anything because we didn't lynch. I'm just saying you were already planning to kill him, so my saying he's a serial killer isn't going to make him more dead. I'm not saying it was super helpful, just insightful and not helpful to the wolves. I feel comfortable with my declaration of being confident enough he wasn't the fool to lynch him, my reasoning was sound.

You can disagree, of course, and maybe I did just get lucky. I haven't gotten to play this much and am maybe taking a bit too much pride in successfully figuring out someone's role.


As stated, if they shamaned FQ then Vash definitely isn't a townie, which means he's lying about being seer, and then it wouldn't matter what FQs aura even is. So this defense of hers is just silly. There's almost no chance she's the fool.


Me either! I just saw them being called out. I do need to go back and check if the clues started before kut announced his check results.


I was just playing, I'm not really offended, don't worry. And obviously you would be lying because you're the fool or a wolf, duh. What kind of question is that?

Your "suspicion" of me wasn't any more threatening than the people saying I might be a wolf because I seem skilled. If anything, it's less, because you're saying I'm not contributing much and that makes me less of a potential threat. It's a little weird you feel threatened by my borderline conspiracy theory, though.


My bad if so, I missed most of the last ten pages yesterday and just assumed you were still gone. People were talking like you'd be on vacation for longer.


I disagree, he claimed an optional role, which further narrows down who could be the doctor or gunner. That's helpful to the wolves and dangerous for those roles.

Gotta go work, good luck everyone.
I'm not really threatened by it. It's giving me information on who I can and can't trust. I'm 50/50 on you right now, but FQ's status as Wolf or Townie will help a bit.
 

Cole


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if thats the case

@Zell 17 I think you need to weigh whether or not there's a clear consensus. it's nearly unanimous at this point. I agree Kat might want to read a bit more first, but I think Dean would likely have voted to skip if he knew/could. yeah, we can wait until one of them gets home/has a break/checks, but I feel like neither would completely object. They both voted, and let's be real, Fire Queen has kinda conceded defeat at this juncture anyway.
 

finlandguy

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Okay, before the day ends, I wanted to do this since... Things might not be looking too good. I wanted to take a closer look at what everyone's roles are. I took whatever a person claimed their role to be at face value, as it makes this a lot easier than starting to play (n+1)chess with everyone. Here's the rundown:

Cole - Witch
Fire Queen - Wolf
shortkut - Detective
Ryan! - Bodyguard (random role)
VashTheStampede - Aura Seer
Holly - Witch (random role)
A Nipple - (random role #3)
Benzine - Medium
Ants! - Wolf Seer
Fool's Requiem -Serial Killer
Tubby23 - Priest

Dean
kat
Killface!
Jawneh
Tommy Boy

Missing roles:
Gunner
Doctor
Wolf
Wolf
Fool

So if none of the claimed roles has lied, we got a bag of two power roles, two wolves, and the fool. Now, that's pretty amazing for the wolves as killing any of the other 3 from the list that they probably have also figured out would be a win. Well, probably the fool would be the worst to hit, but still.

The worst case at this point is that FQ is the avenger. She could have taken a shot at one of the three remaining to get a kill. Come night time, the wolves would know which role they took out. From there they can decide if they want to both night kill and zerker the other two or just take their night kill for a 50/50 for the other townie role. Or they can also drop the zerker and get all three.

Now if FQ is the shaman, we'd probably be in the best spot possible since our seers can do their job without worrying about mindgames. If she's the zerker then that's just a straight win for us.

And the last consideration is that the fool could've also role claimed and jumped into the fold of folks who have roles to avoid being easily singled out. Not a huge problem at the moment, but as we have a few folks who aren't confirmed yet, we might get into a bad situation if we run out of kills beyond lynching. We got two gunner shots, wolf kill, zerker, wolf avenger, and still possibly a kill role from random #3. How things turn out this night, we might be losing either zerker or avenger, and possibly gunner. That would mean that we have to shift gears and actually go on a fool hunt and work with the wolves to get them weeded out or it's game over.

So uhh... We actually might have to protect folks who haven't claimed roles and get the gunner and/or doctor protected and also consider getting a target for the gunner in the scenario that they die tonight. That way we wont risk losing both gunner shots already. Is the best thing to roll the die on Tommy for the fool kill or the gunner take a 2/3 shot at the other two wolves and hope they miss the doctor?

And before I get any thoughts I'm temporarily removing my skip vote just incase kat or Dean just post to skip without reading this. I got time to redo my vote at work every couple hours at break.
 

A Maybe Baker

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Assuming that you have accurately rendered what everyone has said, Cole and I are witches so that's 2 out of 3 random roles. Meaning either Ryan! isn't the bodyguard or A Nipple isn't a random role, because we can't have 4 randoms.
1 Witch is guaranteed. So a second witch is one of the random roles.
 

finlandguy

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Oh, I see. I feel like I keep learning things I overlooked in the original post. I swear I read it >_<
I've done that more than a few times now too. :umm Luckily I just kept it all in my head and just got taught by others as they post things I thought were wrong and contradictory, but it was just me being wrong and not comprehending what I read properly. :sad
 

Cole


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Assuming that you have accurately rendered what everyone has said, Cole and I are witches so that's 2 out of 3 random roles. Meaning either Ryan! isn't the bodyguard or A Nipple isn't a random role, because we can't have 4 randoms.
yeah as pointed out, one of us is the automatic witch and one is the extra witch, doesn't really matter which is which.
 

Ryan!

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Okay, before the day ends, I wanted to do this since... Things might not be looking too good. I wanted to take a closer look at what everyone's roles are. I took whatever a person claimed their role to be at face value, as it makes this a lot easier than starting to play (n+1)chess with everyone. Here's the rundown:

Cole - Witch
Fire Queen - Wolf
shortkut - Detective
Ryan! - Bodyguard (random role)
VashTheStampede - Aura Seer
Holly - Witch (random role)
A Nipple - (random role #3)
Benzine - Medium
Ants! - Wolf Seer
Fool's Requiem -Serial Killer
Tubby23 - Priest

Dean
kat
Killface!
Jawneh
Tommy Boy

Missing roles:
Gunner
Doctor
Wolf
Wolf
Fool

So if none of the claimed roles has lied, we got a bag of two power roles, two wolves, and the fool. Now, that's pretty amazing for the wolves as killing any of the other 3 from the list that they probably have also figured out would be a win. Well, probably the fool would be the worst to hit, but still.

The worst case at this point is that FQ is the avenger. She could have taken a shot at one of the three remaining to get a kill. Come night time, the wolves would know which role they took out. From there they can decide if they want to both night kill and zerker the other two or just take their night kill for a 50/50 for the other townie role. Or they can also drop the zerker and get all three.

Now if FQ is the shaman, we'd probably be in the best spot possible since our seers can do their job without worrying about mindgames. If she's the zerker then that's just a straight win for us.

And the last consideration is that the fool could've also role claimed and jumped into the fold of folks who have roles to avoid being easily singled out. Not a huge problem at the moment, but as we have a few folks who aren't confirmed yet, we might get into a bad situation if we run out of kills beyond lynching. We got two gunner shots, wolf kill, zerker, wolf avenger, and still possibly a kill role from random #3. How things turn out this night, we might be losing either zerker or avenger, and possibly gunner. That would mean that we have to shift gears and actually go on a fool hunt and work with the wolves to get them weeded out or it's game over.

So uhh... We actually might have to protect folks who haven't claimed roles and get the gunner and/or doctor protected and also consider getting a target for the gunner in the scenario that they die tonight. That way we wont risk losing both gunner shots already. Is the best thing to roll the die on Tommy for the fool kill or the gunner take a 2/3 shot at the other two wolves and hope they miss the doctor?

And before I get any thoughts I'm temporarily removing my skip vote just incase kat or Dean just post to skip without reading this. I got time to redo my vote at work every couple hours at break.
I'm almost positive someone is lying. I'm just trying to figure out who it is.
 

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Cole, Kut, and Holly seem all but confirmed. We'll get a pretty decent read on vash after this vote closes out.

There doesn't necessarily need to be a liar among the people who have claimed a role (including my vaguely claiming one), but yes if someone is lying the only ones who so far have no way to prove what we're saying at this point are myself and Ryan. Big reason why I'm hoping my defense of vash earlier works out. It still wouldn't be direct evidence in what I've claimed though.
 

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By all evidence that I see, if there is a liar, either it's you or A Nipple
I didn’t realize there was a witch by default, so neither one has to be lying. Holly or Cole is the default witch, the other is the extra with. That leaves one spot each for Alu and Ryan to have special townie roles
 

finlandguy

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There's also no real need to be sure of either Alu or Ryan right now. If we find ourself lynching other townies within the 5 that aren't confirmed roles yet then we can go after them.
 

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Cole


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I'm almost positive someone is lying. I'm just trying to figure out who it is.
I'm not 100% that someone is lying, but it seems unlikely that no one is lying. I created a monster by role claiming. It caused a ripple effect that made a lot of other people either CHOOSE or be "forced" to reveal theirs. SOMEONE has to be lying.
By all evidence that I see, if there is a liar, either it's you or A Nipple
Ryan, Alu, Kat are the names I'm focusing on for the moment. Kat's not a part of "this" because she hasn't even loosely roleclaimed, but those are my tops right now.
Cole, Kut, and Holly seem all but confirmed. We'll get a pretty decent read on vash after this vote closes out.

There doesn't necessarily need to be a liar among the people who have claimed a role (including my vaguely claiming one), but yes if someone is lying the only ones who so far have no way to prove what we're saying at this point are myself and Ryan. Big reason why I'm hoping my defense of vash earlier works out. It still wouldn't be direct evidence in what I've claimed though.
I'm gonna post a full analysis (and recap) p ost of my own after this. Since everyone in the town pretty much is sure of my innocence, my hope is that they can trust that the analysis is fair, reasonable, and with my level of sussing out enemies at the helm.
Agreed. It is very possible no one is lying.

But what are the odds?!?!?
I agree. Odds are SOMEONE so far has lied. My analysis post to follow shortly.
 

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Lying The Princess Bride GIF by Disney+
 

Cole


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As I said above, I think most everyone in this town is nearly 100% on me being a townie and exactly the role I claim. So my hope is that this post can come from a place where everyone can trust that it is authentic (not just a wolf play to get you to look at the wrong people, I'm not re-reading the thread at this moment, th is is from memory, feel free to correct anything I left out or was wrong about.)

Cole: first person to reveal their role, later veritably confirmed to be the Witch after Holly erroneously assumed there was only one witch, and then confirming that I had quoted Zells PM verbatim. (This was also later inadvertantly confirmed by Zell himself when he said quoting directly from the PM is a no-go, thus implying I was being truthful.) I also at one point began to suspect Fools of being an enemy of the town, others seemed to pick up on the idea, and Fools kind of sank himself into a deep hole by refusing to be specific about anything, and instead just complaining that he was dead. Through a course of events, we developed a plan of protection and a double witch killings that would kill both Ants (revealed to be Witch Seer) and Fools (revealed to be Serial Killer). The plan was constructed to avoid a potential fool kill, of which both were 50/50 on acting like. Both kills were successful, and no one in the ring of protection was harmed.

shortkut: shortkut revealed in response, he stated that he had investigated myself and Ants! on night 0, and that we were revealed to have been different teams. the reason kut chose this moment to reveal, is because we now had a verifiable combination that could result in virtually any detection we choose. shortkuts role was pretty much completely confirmed by finding out that Ants was in fact the town seer. in theory, shortkut very well could have been bluffing and got lucky on Ants. His most recent investigation has been a LOT less reliable once there were claims of shaman interference. I don't think we can say shortkut is 100% townie, but I think it's a safe assumption to make at the same time. he is capable of playing a con this long and this well. But I find it unlikely in this instance.

Ryan: I don't remember how exactly it happened, but very quickly on day 1 after I revealed (I don't remember if it was before or after shortkut) that he claimed he was the Bodyguard, and had protected me night 0 after erroneously assuming that because I was wolf in last game, it was unlikely I would be in this game. STATS RYAN! Anyway, Ryan was looped into our plan of protection, BUT, his role is not confirmable through protection. It's possible the wolves never wanted to target me last night. It's possible Ryan IS a wolf and said "I'm claiming I'm protecting Cole, so we can't kill him tonight" and with no other killers left, it was a safe bet. A few of his posts have also rang suspicious to ME specifically. One of them was in response to Alus suggesting that the Shaman could have masked Holly instead of myself *correctly* anticipating what shortkut would do. Ryan latched on to this idea VERY quickly, and I don't remember exactly what rang my alarm bells, but I remember reading it as fishy. Since then his words and actions have been a little flaky. If I had to pick someone from this list to lynch tomorrow with no more information and no time left? I'd pick Ryan.

Holly: Holly thought there was only one witch per game, and accused me of lying and that I was definitely a wolf because I cant be the witch. After being pressed, she revealed that SHE was the witch and reiterated she believed me to be a wolf. She was then shown that there is potential for more than one witch in the game. She then also realized I had quoted Zell *directly* in my message, which confirmed to her that I am 100% genuine. I would say Holly was the first to 100% confirm me as townie because she knew the PM I had. Holly at this juncture can be assumed nearly 100% safe. For me personally, since I know for a fact I'm a witch, and since she identified my post as having been exact, then she is definitely the other witch (or hacked my DMs, is this 84572D chess?)

That was the first burst, that's more a catchup job.

Today produced some new events, and therefore, new suspects (or new confirmed civis) were introduced.

Vash: shortkut investigated Vash compared to HOLLY last night. Which was contrary to shortkuts intended plans. since he knew Holly is innocent via me, she was a guaranteed comparison, if Vash wasn't on her team, he's an enemy. Seemed cut and dry. But then Vash pointed out that he could have been shaman'd and it would mask his team orientation and it would LOOK like he was on the opposite team. But to shortkut and myself, this seemed highly unlikely. Why would the Shaman choose a random other player when there was SO many players to focus on at the moment, they had fellow wolves under fire. Seemed odd. But what shortkut and I had both forgotten, and *ALU* had pointed out, the shaman may have anticipated shortkut switching from me to Holly as "baseline" for that night phase, and instead masked HER causing HER to appear evil, and anyone else she was compared to to ha ve "opposite teams". This halted the tracks. Along the way, Vash had claimed he was the seer, that he had investigated Fire Queen, and she was confirmed evil. A wolf. But can Vash be trusted? Throughout the rest of the day phase, through Fire Queens posts, as well as examination of the evidence and whether or not Vash would risk the reveal if it would backfire on him, I think we mostly (but definitely I) have settled on him being innocent in this as well. *IF FIRE QUEEN IS LYNCHED AND IS A WOLF* He, in my mind, make him about equal to shortkut level of innocence. It's not 100% and could be high level gameplay, but more realistically he's telling the truth.

Alu: Alu was quiet the first stretch of the game, and I personally knew he was going to be. He told me he was travelling. But since being active, he has increased his suspicion level rapidly. *HE* was the first one to come to Vashs aide, giving him an out by explaining the way the Shaman could have masked Holly. Could be Alu is just very aware of the rules and roles and made the same leap that shortkut did. It did rub me as suspicious though. It just seemed too perfect a plot. All we can do in life is compare others actions to what we THINK we would have done, right? Well I had forgotten that shortkut could just use Holly as the same baseline that I am, and "if I had forgotten it, surely everyone else had too", the fact that Alu knew this? Not only does that mean he's better than me at this game, but he must be the only other one that made this connection. He proposed Kat could have made this arrangement as well. Alu later claimed to be the "third of the extra roles", a comment both unverifiable, but still marginally helpful in knowing which guaranteed roles are still in the game.

Fire Queen: DIE WOLF BITCH! DIEEEEE!

I think thats all the people that have roles claimed in this game.

But as I was typing this, I had kind of a realization. I think I'm pretty good at wolf games? Those that remember them from back in the day can I think remember me being good at BOTH sides of the game, wolf and town.

Everyone keeps getting worried about some 5D chess shit. Someone on the wolves is making these HUGE very specific moves to craft this brilliant story. But I don't think that's the case. K.I.S.S. Occams Razor, the simplest answer is often the correct answer.

The simplest answer is that SO FAR almost everyone is telling the truth. Honestly? Now that I've typed this out, I think it's even possible that EVERYONE is telling the truth. I began this game with a simple message, last game everyone thought I won by lying, when in actuality, I lie minimally in these games only when ABSOLUTELY necessary. But for this game, I chose not only full honesty, but full DISCLOSURE, I would reveal each and all thought processes i had, actions I took at night, all of it. In that I revealed my role. it caused a cascade effect of everyone else revealing and ALSO needing to be honest. Almost every. single. role. reveal so far has been "forced" by the course of events. Ryan revealed when he was backed into a corner. Holly revealed after her msitake about witch numbers. Vash revealed when shortkuts investigation came up bad for him. Alu PARTIALLY revealed when he had SOME suspicion on him. (My guess is that if more suspicion gets on him, he will fully reveal.)

So I have a suspicion that almost every OR INDEED every member of the town that has claimed a role is telling the truth.

So where the fuck does that leave us?

Alu (50/50), Kat, Tommy Boy, Dean, Killface, Jawneh

Those are the people that haven't roll claimed at all (or in alus case, partially). If this theory is right, Fire Queen will be revealed as wolf. Which means there are 2 wolves and 1 fool left in that group of 5.5. I think those are very reasonable odds if everyone else is telling the truth.

Here's what else I know.

This game isn't being mastermined by someone playing 200D chess. But there *IS* someone guiding that ship with a great degree of skill and precision. My two highest prospects for THAT role would be Alu and Kat. (No disrespect to the rest, I think I've only regularly played wolf with Dean, and his strength isn't in the big complicated planning.) Both Alu and Kat could be helping to orchestrate this for the wolves, even if everyones telling the truth, there have been a number of VERY smart wolf plays to make it as difficult as possible. In my opinion, it is likely that Alu or Kat are a wolf, *but not both*. There's a possibility they've planned to disagree in this way, but I have my doubts. So my current theory is Alu or Kat, not both, but that one of them is a wolf.

Tommy is also suspicious to me. Between his *immediate* trust of me and his firm belief that we needed to vote day 1, but then changing it when confronted, ARE both suspicious behaviors. And I could even believe he's the fool. It's possible he ABSOLUTELY DID NOT trust my day 1 witch post, and instead latched onto it assuming it was a lie as the fool. Once I died revealed to be a wolf, he would be lynched the very next day.

Dean, Killface, Jawneh, of the three, I don't think I have a firm stance on either of them. Both Dean and Jawneh have posted a bit, but a lot of them have been "recap" style posts with little more. Killface has been relatively inactive (self admitted.) If I had to pick from this group? I'd say Jawneh, but with absolutely no certainty.

So there you have it. ANOTHER novel of a post from me trying to narrow down suspects. Maybe this'll make the closing hours of this day a bit more enjoyable.
 

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A Maybe Baker

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I'd say it's fair analysis. I did cast a lot of suspicion on myself for sure, and will fully reveal if it goes further down thinking it's me.

Although, I am also just really anal about reading the rules. I was the first to point out the wolf shaman role would mask even the detective, and then even went back today to correct myself after misreading the berserk wolf rules.

Hopefully things work out where I'm able to prove otherwise, but right now I'd say it's fair.
 
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