Dumb religion slap fight

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aiat_gamer

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Honestly, the question isn't even correct. Palestine should not be in this position in the first place. Gaza was already the largest open air prison in the world.

What Israel should have done was not oppress Palestine, give them their land back, and work towards peace.
Technically Gaza is not palestine. Also, there are so much history in the middle that it is not so simple. This is the main issue, most think Israel simply came and started opressing Palestine. There was no Palestine, they made it up after Israel came to existence. The so called Palestine had numerous opportunities to be a country, but it was not enough for them. They did everything in their power to screw with e everyone in their region, case in point:

I hate to start this all over again, but extreme religious movements specially Islamic ones should never be allowed to exist. I say that from experience.
 

ColoradoAvalancheFanMatt

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I hate to start this all over again, but extreme religious movements specially Islamic ones should never be allowed to exist. I say that from experience.
I’d rip apart your entire comment but I don’t know how to multi quote the same comment so I’m going to focus this.

Amazing you are specifically calling out Islamic religions for their extreme movements. Christianity has cause one hundred fold the deaths, has caused oppression of countries on a much more disgusting scale throughout history and even today, and overall is the religion followed and spouted by more evil people today and throughout history.

Get rid of Christianity long before you even think of getting rid of Islam.

Unless, of course… the religion callout is a veiled dog whistle here for something else here.
 

aiat_gamer

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I’d rip apart your entire comment but I don’t know how to multi quote the same comment so I’m going to focus this.

Amazing you are specifically calling out Islamic religions for their extreme movements. Christianity has cause one hundred fold the deaths, has caused oppression of countries on a much more disgusting scale throughout history and even today, and overall is the religion followed and spouted by more evil people today and throughout history.

Get rid of Christianity long before you even think of getting rid of Islam.

Unless, of course… the religion callout is a veiled dog whistle here for something else here.
Yes, it is amazing considering I lived 28 years of my life under an extreme Islamic regime. What else is amazing is watching you guys in your liberal free countries, loving it and thinking you have a good grip on shit like this. Look back to the last 50 years and let me know which religion has been the source of shit in the world.
 
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Amazing you are specifically calling out Islamic religions for their extreme movements. Christianity has cause one hundred fold the deaths, has caused oppression of countries on a much more disgusting scale throughout history and even today, and overall is the religion followed and spouted by more evil people today and throughout history.
I'm not going to disagree that Christianity was an enormous force behind global suffering, including, but not limited to, cultural and ethnic genocide. In recent times, Christian movements support archaic policies like forced births, and the exclusion of non-hetero people and relationships.

All of this is true.

And yet, when you place the two religions side by side, one is clearly more modernized and less extreme than the other. It's no contest.
 

aiat_gamer

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I'm not going to disagree that Christianity was an enormous force behind global suffering, including, but not limited to, cultural and ethnic genocide. In recent times, Christian movements support archaic policies like forced births, and the exclusion of non-hetero people and relationships.

All of this is true.

And yet, when you place the two religions side by side, one is clearly more modernized and less extreme than the other. It's no contest.
One day, someone here has to explain to me why in the world people from US/EU have rather positive view of Islamic extremists.

I mean you guys (not you particularly) have to be smarter than this. Just because you see some upsetting things that are happening does not suddenly mean that the region is devoid of extremists that wont hesitate for a second to burn the world down in the name of their religion.
Based on experience and everything that has happened, allowing these shitbags to take root will lead to cancer that wont easily get eradicated. It has not been so long since ISIS, I wonder which would you prefer. Israel or ISIS like regime.
 

Leandros?

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Technically Gaza is not palestine. Also, there are so much history in the middle that it is not so simple. This is the main issue, most think Israel simply came and started opressing Palestine. There was no Palestine, they made it up after Israel came to existence.
Just because there was not a state of Palestine doesn't mean they didn't start to oppress Palestinians and start the nakba, you fucking dunce.
 

Leandros?

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"uhh actually there was never a state of <name any native American nation> so it's actually fine because the US/Canada eventually had a constitution after they slaughtered millions”
 
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Just because there was not a state of Palestine doesn't mean they didn't start to oppress Palestinians and start the nakba, you fucking dunce.
I think what he's saying is that Israel's oppression of Palestine didn't come from nowhere. I'm not excusing it, just explaining it. Jews felt threatened by Palestinians, similarly to how Palestinians (justifiably) felt threatened by Zionists.
Who tf has a positive view of Islamic extremists?
Tons of liberals. Anyone who doesn't acknowledge that Islam is by definition extremist, and that many modern adherents to the religion believe homosexuals should be killed, women should be covered from head to toe, that marrying cousins and minors is acceptable, that "Hitler wasn't wrong", and that Jews should be killed.
 

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Tons of conservatives. Anyone who doesn’t acknowledge that Christianity is by definition extremist, and that many modern adherents to the religion believe homosexuals should be killed, women should be baby factories, that sexualizing minors is acceptable, that “Bush wasn’t wrong,” and that Arabs should be killed.
 

aiat_gamer

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Tons of conservatives. Anyone who doesn’t acknowledge that Christianity is by definition extremist, and that many modern adherents to the religion believe homosexuals should be killed, women should be baby factories, that sexualizing minors is acceptable, that “Bush wasn’t wrong,” and that Arabs should be killed.
Pretty stupid, but nice try though, I will give you that. Pretty sad to see how views like this leads to right wing nut jobs getting more and more popular but hey, whatever makes you feel like you have the high ground.
 

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Pretty stupid, but nice try though, I will give you that. Pretty sad to see how views like this leads to right wing nut jobs getting more and more popular but hey, whatever makes you feel like you have the high ground.
thank you for agreeing with my point that it’s pointless to generalize entire religions and their followers!
 

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Hear me out: most if not all religious views are pretty much some form of extremism, albeit sometimes on different scales depending on said level of religious beliefs.

It’s the same as politics… only religions are more akin to different feathers on different wings of the same bird.
 
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Tons of conservatives. Anyone who doesn’t acknowledge that Christianity is by definition extremist, and that many modern adherents to the religion believe homosexuals should be killed, women should be baby factories, that sexualizing minors is acceptable, that “Bush wasn’t wrong,” and that Arabs should be killed.
thank you for agreeing with my point that it’s pointless to generalize entire religions and their followers!
This is the exact sort of response I would expect from someone who has never lived in a majority Muslim country or actually engaged with any Muslims who weren't trying to whitewash.
 

aiat_gamer

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thank you for agreeing with my point that it’s pointless to generalize entire religions and their followers!
You know when you start using sarcasm it really puts on display that you really have no clue what you are talking about. What is pointless is trying to argue with the whole "peace and love for all" mentality. You guys will never, ever understand this whole thing. Not unless you actually experience it firsthand.

This is the exact sort of response I would expect from someone who has never lived in a majority Muslim country or actually engaged with any Muslims who weren't trying to whitewash.
It is honestly becoming pretty sickening (to me at least) to see this attitude from the likes of some people here. Watching these guys trying so hard to act like they have slightest clue what they are talking about would be funny, except I remember how it was living in Iran and it becomes sad.
 
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aiat_gamer

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is my takeaway supposed to be that islamist republics are oppressive nightmare states?
Let me try my hand at some of your sarcasm here: No, it should be that Islam is a religion of peace and Islamic republics are pretty groovy and fun places to live. You should try it sometimes, I am sure you will love it.

You have no idea how insulting your arguments are to people who actually have to endure this religion.
 

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I was not responding to you specifically


As an aside, "when u think about it palestinians arent even a real people anyway" bullshit should get someone dropkicked the fuck out of here. That's just straight-up bigoted, dehumanizing garbage.
 
Tons of liberals. Anyone who doesn't acknowledge that Islam is by definition extremist, and that many modern adherents to the religion believe homosexuals should be killed, women should be covered from head to toe, that marrying cousins and minors is acceptable, that "Hitler wasn't wrong", and that Jews should be killed.
That's a huge stretch from taking people who acknowledge that moderates exist within the religion (and I've actually met some btw) and saying that they have positive views of extreme Islam.

Infact even including the word "extreme" at all automatically implies that there must be Islam that isn't extreme, otherwise why even use the word?
 
Those of us who live in the West only know Muslims who are very much in the minority, not in any sort of power, and typically do not resemble anything like the oppressive regimes that exist elsewhere. A local Muslim group here put on a giant soccer tournament last year an fed everyone whose wanted to watch.

So yeah, likely a different view than what exists in the middle east.


However: "they had numerous opportunities to be a country, but it was not enough for them" is an incredibly ridiculous statement. They had chances to exist as a puppet state of Israel where Israel controlled everything from the water to all trade, sure. But why would they take that?

Also, Palestine was first used to describe the region that contains Gaza, and much of Israel, long before either current state came to be (5th century BCE), so saying "Gaza isn't really Palestine" sure does ignore a lot of history.

Also that "Palestine Mandate" that happened after the fall if the Ottoman empire before a bunch of Europeans decided to once again meddle with it. That also contained Gaza (and Israel). So stop pretending like they're "not really Palestinians" as a way to justify anything. Especially as someone who claims others are ignoring history in the region.
 

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I was not responding to you specifically


As an aside, "when u think about it palestinians arent even a real people anyway" bullshit should get someone dropkicked the fuck out of here. That's just straight-up bigoted, dehumanizing garbage.

Agreed.

At a minimum, the people here should be able to acknowledge civilian victims on either side of the battle lines and separate civilians from combatants. There’s not a nationality or ethnicity here that shouldn’t be able to comprehend the very basic concept that a government doesn’t represent an entire population, that certain belief systems can be constituted as brainwashing a population, and that propaganda can come in all forms and from all sides.

Whether someone agrees with one side or another is irrelevant, because at the core of the conflict, the main issue everyone has beyond who started it and who’s at fault, is the civilian casualties on either side. At the least, a little compassion wouldn’t kill anyone here. As volatile as the world is, any one of us could end up a civilian casualty in the future, and there are a lot of people that are not from the west that would not be the least bit sympathetic of American civilian casualties for the same reasons people aren’t sympathetic to Israeli or Palestinian civilian casualties. I’m sure everyone remembers how it was when certain parts of the world cheered after 9/11 and said the west deserved it… or the London bombing… or any other event that happened outside of the Middle East. It’s the same damn thing. Those people that died had nothing to do with why they were killed.
 

Leandros?

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I think what he's saying is that Israel's oppression of Palestine didn't come from nowhere. I'm not excusing it, just explaining it. Jews felt threatened by Palestinians, similarly to how Palestinians (justifiably) felt threatened by Zionists.
...how do you figure that? He is literally saying there was no Palestine. What other purpose can there be for that, than to deny them some primacy in victimhood?
 

Leandros?

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Listening to an Iranian diaspora guy talk about Islam is like talking to a Miami Gusano about Cuba and thinking they're being reasonable
 
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aiat_gamer

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However: "they had numerous opportunities to be a country, but it was not enough for them" is an incredibly ridiculous statement.
It is not. but whatever. It does not really worth it going through history with you guys while the info is right there for you to read. The mere fact that PLO started fighting with Jordan should be an indicator on where their head was/is at.

If we are finally done with this stupid argument over whether the most barbaric and extreme religion is actually barbaric and extreme, I still want to know what would have been/ could be a good response from Israel side after what happened. Before giving an answer, remember that they went through something similar in 2006 and we ended up here after backing out from Gaza and letting Hamas take over.
 
I still want to know what would have been/ could be a good response from Israel side after what happened.
Answer how thousands of children and non-combatants are worthy of indiscriminate death because they were born into a country region (yeah, yeah) with an oppressive, corrupt and immoral regime that has been in power longer than they were alive?

Also kindly quote actual posts here and address those instead of making sweeping generalities that just make you sound like your average Twitter Checkmark.

It's either worth engaging or it's not. Pick one. If you're not going to engage, then in the kindest way possible: Go away.
 

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If we are finally done with this stupid argument over whether the most barbaric and extreme religion is actually barbaric and extreme
Tom Hardy Bait GIF
 

Leandros?

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If we are finally done with this stupid argument over whether the most barbaric and extreme religion is actually barbaric and extreme, I still want to know what would have been/ could be a good response from Israel side after what happened. Before giving an answer, remember that they went through something similar in 2006 and we ended up here after backing out from Gaza and letting Hamas take over.
Dissolve as a state and allow for a multicultural future one that welcomes people regardless of ethnicity or religion to bloom out of its rotting corpse
 

Leandros?

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It is not. but whatever. It does not really worth it going through history with you guys while the info is right there for you to read. The mere fact that PLO started fighting with Jordan should be an indicator on where their head was/is at.
It's funny how you claim some nonsense, link irrelevant articles that don't confirm anything you said (also Jordan attacked Palestinian organisations first), and then gloss over it as accepted when someone calls you on it
 

aiat_gamer

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Answer how thousands of children and non-combatants are worthy of indiscriminate death because they were born into a country region (yeah, yeah) with an oppressive, corrupt and immoral regime that has been in power longer than they were alive?

Also kindly quote actual posts here and address those instead of making sweeping generalities that just make you sound like your average Twitter Checkmark.

It's either worth engaging or it's not. Pick one. If you're not going to engage, then in the kindest way possible: Go away
Last time I checked everyone is free to post here within rules. I don't see why I should engage with people like you or that other dude who thinks he is so funny. No one is forcing you to engage with me either so kick it down a notch.
 

aiat_gamer

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(also Jordan attacked Palestinian organisations first)
How does it feel like to just make things up? Does it feel good?

"civil war in Jordan from September 1970-July 1971, which began after several failed assassination attempts on the Jordanian king and the hijacking of three airplanes. The conflict centered on whether Jordan would be controlled by the Palestine Liberation Organization (PLO) or the Hashemite monarchy."
 

Leandros?

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Last time I checked everyone is free to post here within rules. I don't see why I should engage with people like you or that other dude who thinks he is so funny. No one is forcing you to engage with me either so kick it down a notch.
Posting for the sake of saying things but not interacting with people is more akin to blogging. I have it on good authority that a vacancy recently opened up in that space, perhaps that would be a better outlet for you.
 

aiat_gamer

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Posting for the sake of saying things but not interacting with people is more akin to blogging. I have it on good authority that a vacancy recently opened up in that space, perhaps that would be a better outlet for you.
I will keep that in mind. But the fact is I don't think it is worth it to engage specifically with the likes of you. I had some great engagement with others here who at least have a clue about what they are talking about. Anyways, when I ignore you over and over, take a hint and stop seeking my attention, thanks.
 
It is not. but whatever. It does not really worth it going through history with you guys while the info is right there for you to read.
Provide a timeline of the actual and specific moments where you believe Palestine had an opportunity to become a full fledged country who can completely govern yourselves and then we can actually respond to you in a more meaningful way. You were the one that made the initial claim, and saying "But they attacked this other country!" isn't proof of anything about becoming their own country.

Why am I asking this? Because there are always caveats that people ignore about the actual "proposals" for Palestine that made them unrealistic.
 
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Leandros?

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I will keep that in mind. But the fact is I don't think it is worth it to engage specifically with the likes of you. I had some great engagement with others here who at least have a clue about what they are talking about. Anyways, when I ignore you over and over, take a hint and stop seeking my attention, thanks.
You don't decide who talks to you on a forum bud. If you don't want people calling you on your bullshit, don't spout it in a forum
 
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Dissolve as a state and allow for a multicultural future one that welcomes people regardless of ethnicity or religion to bloom out of its rotting corpse
Come on. This is pure fantasy when you have two ultra orthodox religious groups who hate each others' guts. You can't simply say "kiss and make up" and expect everything to be fine. This might be a desirable outcome, but it's not a realistic one, nor is it even a path towards a realistic one.
 

aiat_gamer

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Provide a timeline of the actual and specific moments where you believe Palestine had an opportunity to become a full fledged country who can completely govern yourselves and then we can actually respond to you in a more meaningful way. You were the one that made the initial claim, and saying "But they attacked this other country!" isn't proof of anything about becoming their own country.

Why am I asking this? Because there are always caveats that people ignore about the actual "proposals" for Palestine that made them unrealistic.
Well, first was when Israel came to exist. At that point a place called Palestine did not exist, it was only Jordan, Egypt and Syria. They could have easily given the up and coming Palestinians a section that included the current Jerusalem in 1948 instead of going to war with Israel 3 times, losing 3 times, losing tons of land and having millions stateless. Jordan tried taking in PLO, but that ended up in a war itself. The main issue was and is this: they did not and do not want to have a Jewish country in the region.
The main reason the conflict is ongoing these days even though pretty much most of Arab countries have accepted Israel is very simple: Iran regime. Every time there is a chance of peace talks Iran charges up Hamas to screw things up. The main reason behind the latest attack was that Saudi Arabia was really close to finally accepting Israel as a nation. Iran cannot allow this.
You don't decide who talks to you on a forum bud. If you don't want people calling you on your bullshit, don't spout it in a forum
Hah, you guys were the ones whining about why I don't engage with you here. Up to that point I did not really mind your comedy routine. Do you have short term memory?
Come on. This is pure fantasy when you have two ultra orthodox religious groups who hate each others' guts. You can't simply say "kiss and make up" and expect everything to be fine. This might be a desirable outcome, but it's not a realistic one, nor is it even a path towards a realistic one.
And I am strictly talking about the immediate action after the attack by Hamas. I still want to know what would have been an appropriate response to Hamas attack. Does anyone think the best reposnse would have been choosing that time to recognize an independent Palestine? How would that even work considering that Gaza is under the control of Hamas and does not even fall under the actual Palestine which is on the west bank?
 

Fire Queen

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The main reason behind the latest attack was that Saudi Arabia was really close to finally accepting Israel as a nation. Iran cannot allow this.
has this been confirmed? i know this was a popular theory in the immediate aftermath of october 7 but i'd love to see a source confirming this
 

Leandros?

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Hamas: *calls operation in name of holy Mosque that was famously assaulted by Zionists months prior*
Very smart people: "but what could their ulterior motives be?"
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Leandros?

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Come on. This is pure fantasy when you have two ultra orthodox religious groups who hate each others' guts. You can't simply say "kiss and make up" and expect everything to be fine. This might be a desirable outcome, but it's not a realistic one, nor is it even a path towards a realistic one.
You are grossly overstating the religiosity of both groups. Most Israelis are liberal Zionists, at most moderately religious, and, as we've covered repeatedly, Hamas is only the biggest faction of freedom fighters precisely because an islamist face was extra scary for the west. If the fucking honkies can keep living in South Africa I think a future where Jew and Muslim live together in Palestine is not unrealistic either.
 
Well, first was when Israel came to exist. At that point a place called Palestine did not exist, it was only Jordan, Egypt and Syria. They could have easily given the up and coming Palestinians a section that included the current Jerusalem in 1948 instead of going to war with Israel 3 times, losing 3 times, losing tons of land and having millions stateless. Jordan tried taking in PLO, but that ended up in a war itself. The main issue was and is this: they did not and do not want to have a Jewish country in the region.
The main reason the conflict is ongoing these days even though pretty much most of Arab countries have accepted Israel is very simple: Iran regime. Every time there is a chance of peace talks Iran charges up Hamas to screw things up. The main reason behind the latest attack was that Saudi Arabia was really close to finally accepting Israel as a nation. Iran cannot allow this.
So your example of Palestine getting a chance to be a country is three non-Palestine countries not wanting to give up territory to be a new country? Why would they give up territory for any reason?

Also, the second part of this is blatantly ignoring that Israel also funded Hamas for many years. They've come out and actively said this. They want a divided government between Gaza and the West bank so it's harder for them to act as one. Also because they believed that with Hamas in control of Gaza they'd have more opportunity/reason to go into Gaza to play "police" and keep them under control.
 

aiat_gamer

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So your example of Palestine getting a chance to be a country is three non-Palestine countries not wanting to give up territory to be a new country? Why would they give up territory for any reason?

Also, the second part of this is blatantly ignoring that Israel also funded Hamas for many years. They've come out and actively said this. They want a divided government between Gaza and the West bank so it's harder for them to act as one. Also because they believed that with Hamas in control of Gaza they'd have more opportunity/reason to go into Gaza to play "police" and keep them under control.
Israel did not take their territory. I say this with utmost respect and I am not trying to be funny or anything, but I think you should read about the exact situation border/country-wise when Israel came to be. None of those three countries had to give territory, they lost territory because they attacked Israel. I mean think about it, how could Israel become a country if the entire region was part of other countries? How would that even work?? Like all three countries just watched as an entire nation announced independence in their own borders?

This is what I am trying to say: there was no Palestine at that point. Egypt, Syria and Jordan each controlled a section of that specific land at the time (In addition to their own country borders, this is important) When Israel became a country, during the 3 wars they lost those lands and more . After the 1948 war, they still had a very good chance to announce the country of Palestine in the lands which included Jurasalem. They did not, instead they went to war 2 more times. None of those countries had any interest in a Palestine country. They wanted Israel gone. Then in the consequent years more and more current Palestinian Arabs became stateless due to the PLO war with Jordan, getting booted out of Kuwait after majority of them supported Iraq invasion of Kuwait and of course after each war with Israel. None of the Arab countries wanted/wants to take them in.

As for the second part, I have said it before in this very thread. I am no fan of the current Israel regime, yes they suck big time. I have always said they are almost a Jewish version of Iran, specially lately with how the hardcore religious fanatics are taking over the government. My point though still stands that destroying Hamas is the correct answer right now.
 
Israel did not take their territory. I say this with utmost respect and I am not trying to be funny or anything, but I think you should read about the exact situation border/country-wise when Israel came to be. None of those three countries had to give territory, they lost territory because they attacked Israel. I mean think about it, how could Israel become a country if the entire region was part of other countries? How would that even work?? Like all three countries just watched as an entire nation announced independence in their own borders?

This is what I am trying to say: there was no Palestine at that point. Egypt, Syria and Jordan each controlled a section of that specific land at the time (In addition to their own country borders, this is important) When Israel became a country, during the 3 wars they lost those lands and more . After the 1948 war, they still had a very good chance to announce the country of Palestine in the lands which included Jurasalem. They did not, instead they went to war 2 more times. None of those countries had any interest in a Palestine country. They wanted Israel gone. Then in the consequent years more and more current Palestinian Arabs became stateless due to the PLO war with Jordan, getting booted out of Kuwait after majority of them supported Iraq invasion of Kuwait and of course after each war with Israel. None of the Arab countries wanted/wants to take them in.
You misread what I wrote.

I didn't say "Israel took their territory" - I'm asking you why Egypt, Syria, and Jordan would voluntarily give up territory to form a new country rather than keep the territory to be their own. Saying that "they could have done that to form Palestine" is why I called your initial comment ridiculous. Name a country that voluntarily gave up territory without there also being some sort of war or decades long conflict. Now, name a country that did so in order to form a new country.

You've claimed that "Palestinians had the opportunity to be a country" and then saying the opportunity was wasted because countries who are not Palestine decided to not let it happen. How is that an opportunity that Palestinians rejected instead of another thing they had forced upon them?


Also, that area was carved up by Europe (and others in the west, but mostly Britain and France) so Israel didn't just "Declare independence" and come to be. It was heavily backed by the west to force it to exist as a nation.
 

aiat_gamer

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has this been confirmed? i know this was a popular theory in the immediate aftermath of october 7 but i'd love to see a source confirming this
Well, it is not like you can find a official source announcing this. But the timing and the extreme nature of the attack (which is pretty much unprecedented) makes it obvious what was the goal behind it. I mean Iran is not stupid, neither is Hamas. They knew full well that Israel would react in an extreme manner. However, that is a positive point publicity-wise. They can halt the Saudi Arabia talks and use the suffering of Gaza citizens to score some points. I understand fully how horrible all this is, believe me I do. But what is fucked up is how Iran actually wants this. Now all the world is pressuring Israel to stop the persuit of Hamas destruction. This is strictly my opinion, but from my experiences this js exactly what the regime has planned and it is seem to be working. A little longer and it is 2006 all over again. Israel retreats from Gaza and Hamas lives to fight another day.
 

aiat_gamer

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You misread what I wrote.

I didn't say "Israel took their territory" - I'm asking you why Egypt, Syria, and Jordan would voluntarily give up territory to form a new country rather than keep the territory to be their own. Saying that "they could have done that to form Palestine" is why I called your initial comment ridiculous. Name a country that voluntarily gave up territory without there also being some sort of war or decades long conflict. Now, name a country that did so in order to form a new country
This is what I meant when I said there was never a Palestine and people jumped on my throat. So can you tell me which sections should Israel give up to the current Palstinians and why? Was there ever a country called Palestine that was taken over by force?
 
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