Zell Wolf Discussion Thread Game 4

[Cole]

Should be really easy to quote it and throw it in my face then

sure here you go boss.

Day 1 seer claims seer and starts announcing their checks. Wolves have no way to win, unless they find the doctor night 1. Every single day that goes by more townies are confirmed or wolves lynched.

"just say you're seer and the wolves lose".

 

[Zell 17]

sure here you go boss.



"just say you're seer and the wolves lose".

How on earth is me giving the strategy that I personally would use in a pro-town setup even remotely in the same stratosphere as saying “ (my) balance has made (Benzine) so good. it's all (me), it doesn't even matter who plays!”

Like, are you okay?

 

[Cole]

you literally said the only thing needed to do to win the game is announce you're the seer, and the game is already over.

Meanwhile, I'm just an okay player who got really good roles in your perfectly balanced game! Nothing I did had anything to do with my ability, I just had the right roles.

 

[Zell 17]

you literally said the only thing needed to do to win the game is announce you're the seer, and the game is already over.

Meanwhile, I'm just an okay player who got really good roles in your perfectly balanced game! Nothing I did had anything to do with my ability, I just had the right roles.

I'll bite. What's your counter-strategy if you are the wolves? The town seer has announced who they are and has starting confirming villagers / outing werewolves. They are unkillable at night. What's your play to try and win?

BTW the direct quote was "I'm not convinced Cole is the best player". Apparently me maybe thinking you aren't the #1 player means "You're just okay".

Like dude. You had a bad game! It's okay. There's gonna be more games. You don't have to blame everyone else (for targeting you) or me (for not including the roles you like).

 

[Cole]

I'll bite. What's your counter-strategy if you are the wolves? The town seer has announced who they are and has starting confirming villagers / outing werewolves. They are unkillable at night. What's your play to try and win?

BTW the direct quote was "I'm not convinced Cole is the best player". Apparently me maybe thinking you aren't the #1 player means "You're just okay".

Like dude. You had a bad game! It's okay. There's gonna be more games. You don't have to blame everyone else (for targeting you) or me (for not including the roles you like).

I'm not the best player. I don't care to be. You dismissed what I did as "this is the way I set up the game to work!"

I don't blame anyone for targeting me, in fact, I can probably dig up where I messaged you and said "I'll be dead first for the next 3 games if this works". And the roles I "like" are for balancing the wolves, not the town. I "blame" you for not wanting to listen to criticism, and instead citing a mobile app as your justification for balance based decisions. How many people have said they feel one side is overpowered? In fact in one game, you even went so far as to tell people "alright I'll buff the wolves and you guys can see what thats like", and then instead said "I actually kept it pretty much the same balance because I wanted more information". Then... kept it the same again.

and for the record, stating that there is no counter play to someone saying "I am the seer" isn't the trump card for your balance that you think it is.

And whats my counter play? I do that thing that you're so fond of saying is necessary. I'd lie.

And as far as me having a "bad game", I eased off my posting style because there was little chance of me surviving to a second day regardless. So I had a little fun, went 50/50 on guessing a wolf by the end of the first day. I did just fine.

You have this delusion that when I suggest things to make the balance better it matters to me if I win or lose. I've said the same thing about balance from your first game to your most recent REGARDLESS of what I had done. In fact I even said before you even launched your first game when you were talking about the style that I was apprehensive of balance. But yeah, it's definitely because I died.

But you do you, man. You just keep pumping out the same game while people tell you they think the balance needs work.

 

[Zell 17]

You aren’t the only person playing or that has opinions. People have also DM’d me saying they like things the way they are, after seeing the pissing matches in these threads I CANT IMAGINE why they wouldn’t want to express an opinion openly. So I take what you say against what other people say, and temper it with my experience with these games. There’s been a lot of oddities in the 3 prior games:

1) The town has had a LOT of luck with random roles, particularly with additional seers.
2) The random killers have killed more evils than villagers. Hard to do when villagers outnumber wolves 3:1.
3) The fool has been disposed on the first day.

This is the first game that’s had the RK kill a villager! And the town got a “normal” random villager roll. And the town is going to lose.

 

[Fool's Requiem]

While I will say the townies have too much power in these games, it's not like the wolves and solo killers didn't have a chance to win in some of these games.

Vash lighting all of the wolves on fire is really what made them lose a couple games back. I feel like I couldn't have been the only one who totally bit on Alu pretending to be Seer. Both Benzine and Kit have played this specific game really well and have a chance to score a win.

FQ's last game could have been won by the wolves had they killed TD who made an obvious seer play (even if I thought he was a wolf). Even then, canadaguy managed to fly under the radar as a wolf until he hit the Alchemist.

I'm not saying, "Don't change it" but I don't want to pretend like the town has steamrolled every game since the first FQ game where the wovles won.

Also, I don't think be antagonistic about the game helps...

 

[shortkut]

You aren’t the only person playing or that has opinions. People have also DM’d me saying they like things the way they are, after seeing the pissing matches in these threads I CANT IMAGINE why they wouldn’t want to express an opinion openly. So I take what you say against what other people say, and temper it with my experience with these games. There’s been a lot of oddities in the 3 prior games:

1) The town has had a LOT of luck with random roles, particularly with additional seers.
2) The random killers have killed more evils than villagers. Hard to do when villagers outnumber wolves 3:1.
3) The fool has been disposed on the first day.

This is the first game that’s had the RK kill a villager! And the town got a “normal” random villager roll. And the town is going to lose.

I wish they would share their opinions openly. I have been one of the people stating the same as Cole. With the number of investigative roles the town has, with good placement, they could find all the wolves in one night if the wolves make a kill that night

 

[Ants!]

Here is my opinion on the whole thing:

I wish I had lived long enough for Vash to jail me and send me a gif as a message.

 

[Ants!]

I wish they would share their opinions openly.

Personally I am one of the ones who felt they were unbalanced against the wolves before, but feel they’re a lot more balanced now. Of course I could be biased because I went from
Baddie three times in a row to town three times in a row, so don’t trust me.

I’m also a dum dum.

 

[Cole]

I wish they would share their opinions openly. I have been one of the people stating the same as Cole. With the number of investigative roles the town has, with good placement, they could find all the wolves in one night if the wolves make a kill that night

there are a lot of people saying it publicly. I can not imagine a reason people that like it and think the balance is fine wouldn't post. but what do I know?

that's fine. if he doesn't wanna take any criticism, he doesn't have to.

 

[Kat]

IMO the reason the game felt in favor of the town is because the townies win by default if everybody is bad at lying, and it takes some practice to figure out what lies will work well. As people figure out effective strategies, the evil teams will do better. I'd personally really like to play on an evil team again now that I know the game better.

I do think the odds are weighted a bit towards the town, but not problematically so.

 

[Kat]

there are a lot of people saying it publicly. I can not imagine a reason people that like it and think the balance is fine wouldn't post. but what do I know?

that's fine. if he doesn't wanna take any criticism, he doesn't have to.

I swear you said after the first two games that the balance was fine and the wolves only lost because they played poorly.

 

[Cole]

I swear you said after the first two games that the balance was fine and the wolves only lost because they played poorly.

the balance was better in those games because they had a fool. that alone balanced the game. there were a lot of people (mainly the wolves) in the first two games were "horribly" unbalanced for the town. I disagreed with that. the wolves in the first two games could have steam rolled with just a bit of aggression. but when he started adding the random roles, it DEFINITELY got more overpowered for the town.

 

[Kat]

the balance was better in those games because they had a fool. that alone balanced the game. there were a lot of people (mainly the wolves) in the first two games were "horribly" unbalanced for the town. I disagreed with that. the wolves in the first two games could have steam rolled with just a bit of aggression. but when he started adding the random roles, it DEFINITELY got more overpowered for the town.

In this game there could've been a fool. There was no way to know except the wolves said otherwise.

 

[VashTheStampede]

regardless of how the fuck we got here (i'm sure it was from high level play from all involved and not certain people constantly talking themselves out of the right play) its pretty cool to me how its down to the wire

 

[Cole]

In this game there could've been a fool. There was no way to know except the wolves said otherwise.

I understand, but the guaranteed role is a bigger threat to clean lynching.

 

[Kat]

I understand, but the guaranteed role is a bigger threat to clean lynching.

How so? It was guaranteed a role existed that made lynching unsafe. If anything, this made it even less safe because you don't know if somebody is trying to get themselves lynched or another person lynched. Lynching people because they seem suspicious is risky. Lynching someone because someone else made a good argument for them being suspicious is also risky.

@Zell 17 what happens if the game gets down to people who can't kill each other and no side has the numbers to force a lynch? What's FQ been up to with her trap? Is it really on herself?

 

[Fool's Requiem]

I swear you said after the first two games that the balance was fine and the wolves only lost because they played poorly.

He did indeed.

regardless of how the fuck we got here (i'm sure it was from high level play from all involved and not certain people constantly talking themselves out of the right play) its pretty cool to me how its down to the wire

I think this is the first real game where we don't know who is going to come out on top.

 

[Cole]

How so? It was guaranteed a role existed that made lynching unsafe. If anything, this made it even less safe because you don't know if somebody is trying to get themselves lynched or another person lynched. Lynching people because they seem suspicious is risky. Lynching someone because someone else made a good argument for them being suspicious is also risky.

psychologically you're more likely to be afraid of what you know than what might be.

example: in a big city. there's murderers all around you. you still walk the street. but you see a news report about a SPECIFIC killer being in a 5 mile radius of your home. you're not leaving the house that day.

I agree the head hunter is a fine alternative to the fool, maybe even more. but it being defined is scarier than the unknown.

 

[Ants!]

I think this is the first real game where we don't know who is going to come out on top.

Nah. Zell’s last game was definitely a close contest until Vash happened to torch two wolves in one night.

 

[Kat]

psychologically you're more likely to be afraid of what you know than what might be.

example: in a big city. there's murderers all around you. you still walk the street. but you see a news report about a SPECIFIC killer being in a 5 mile radius of your home. you're not leaving the house that day.

I agree the head hunter is a fine alternative to the fool, maybe even more. but it being defined is scarier than the unknown.

So you think the psychological effect of not knowing exactly which role will cause everyone to lose if they lynch the wrong person makes the difference between a well-balanced game and one so unbalanced it needs serious adjustment? Idk, that seems like a stretch to me. It's hard to say without seeing how people would react with that role in play longer though.

 

[Fool's Requiem]

Nah. Zell’s last game was definitely a close contest until Vash happened to torch two wolves in one night.

Yeah, you're right.
Thanks, @VashTheStampede !

 

[Cole]

I don't think that's what makes the difference, no. but they are viewed differently. the fool roles adds fear to lynching wolves. and the shaman will work better for innocent townies than it will for guilty wolves. it's what balances all the other seer and protector roles.

but point of reference, this game having one of the two guaranteed have brought the wolves to their first legitimate chance at winning.

but again, what do I know.

 

[Fool's Requiem]

I agree the head hunter is a fine alternative to the fool, maybe even more. but it being defined is scarier than the unknown.

Not knowing if we have a fool or a headhunter in a game is great for mind games. shortkut choosing to seer Alu just made it much easier for us, so we got lucky, but imagine if it takes longer. Alu maybe wins the game because no one was anticipating a Headhunter. Until shortkut seered Alu, I thought YOU were the solo voter with the way you were just changing your vote around until you got a reaction.

 

[Local Hero]

dead thread for sure going insane

I was going to make a joke that the dead thread was dead, but turns out I just wasn't getting notified.

FQ, when you see this,

 

[Smacktard]

Benzine is doing what wolves should have done all along. Make a strong claim as early as you can. I can’t decide if I like that he outted Alu as headhunter. On the one hand it gives him strong credibility, on the other it removes the fear of the fool.

Timezones/work commitments make it hard to align strategy at times. BenIne wrote that he was going to claim bell ringer in a PM and oust Alu, I urged him not to because it would reduce our pool of known townies, but almost immediately he made the post anyway. I feel like the better move would've been to claim that I was the Fool. It's UNK and it only has one person that can contest the role (who wouldn't be a threat because we had already figured out his target was likely Local). Also, I said in wolf chat at the very beginning that if I was going to "claim" (hint at a role), it would be Fool. I was even shitposting pretty hard Day 1 with the numbers math (no, I'm not trying to defend my bad math, I didn't fudge the numbers on purpose) for that reason. When Benzine outed Alu, I was pretty much left fighting for my life and had to make a weak claim at witch.

I also wanted to ensure Benzine wasn't lynched, and that I'd have preferred to be lynched in his place. Given his role, I preferred his role to remain unknown, but an alpha wolf is a known role. Ideally, his guardian protection would've been on me, but we didn't know you could be as non-specific as "Use guardian on next wolf lynched", and in the end maybe it's better that we didn't.

The wolves basically left the aura seer and spirit seer completely unchallenged. That not only means that their reads are unimpeachable, it means that they are all competing for ONE random villager spot because every other role has been unchallenged.

Local kind of fucked us when he claimed shortkut was a wolf and got him killed Day 1. We could've claimed seer but since their auras are good/blue, the ruse probably would've lasted one day max, and would've been exposed if our target were lynched. We didn't count on FR dying from the potion either.

Fools should admit nothing to the town, and then Kelly fakes Aura seer and sells Fools hard as evil. Force the priest to kill Fools before the potion can. Then I think Kelly has great credibility as an Aura seer.

That would've been a great call actually. The problem is that FR revealed his potion to the entire thread hours before he told the fkn wolf chat even. And with Kat not claiming an orange (red) potion, we assumed (hoped) that Fool's received a red potion too because... Wtf was the alchemist even DOING at this point if not finishing off Kat?

 

[Fool's Requiem]

That would've been a great call actually. The problem is that FR revealed his potion to the entire thread hours before he told the fkn wolf chat even.

what? No I didnt. I asked in the wolf chat before the day phase begun if I should post that I got the potion and kut told me there was no reason not to.

I don't mind people shitting on me for being ass at wolf, but I would appreciate if you didn't blatantly lie....

 

[Smacktard]

what? No I didnt. I asked in the wolf chat before the day phase begun if I should post that I got the potion and kut told me there was no reason not to.

I don't mind people shitting on me for being ass at wolf, but I would appreciate if you didn't blatantly lie....

I'm not blatantly lying; I made a mistake. I read the wrong chat (the one from AFTER Kut got priest'd).

You're right, you did post it in the wolf chat. Within 1 minute of saying you were going to announce it in the thread, Kut said "go for it", and then within 10 minutes of that reply, you posted it.

 

[Smacktard]

16 Priests threatening to splash each other

Ah yes, a Russian Roulette standoff!

I know it feels like it, but they were in great shape last game until the arsonist wiped them out and they are in good shape this game.

FWIW we're only in good shape this game through a lot of good luck and a lot of dumb townie decisions. Maybe if the alchemist had been less useless we would've done better. I do feel like the game is weighted a bit pro-townie. We got lucky with the medium pick, the red woman killed themselves before identifying themselves and saying they would target X person, we got lucky with Gunner, seers kept picking the same people, beast hunters hunted themselves, Zell mixed up the timelines and lowered Tubby's credibility as a result, and Tommy drowned himself. A LOT had to line up perfectly for us to have a shot at winning, and even then our only shot now at winning (which basically boils down to FQ making a 50-50 call) is due to Benzine (luckily) having the guardian wolf role. I feel like just one more wolf may make for a more balanced game. Even though it reduces townies by one, it balances a bit by giving a larger pool of wolves to pick from.

Cole hasn’t been targeted because he’s so super strong (I’m not convinced he’s the best player). But he has had great roles (Gunner 2x and witch) that are the top role targets for wolves to kill. In this game he ANNOUNCED the ability to kill, when any competent wolf team will be most concerned about taking out bullets. Of course he will be checked and killed.

He had an important role last game, and his posting was nonsensical and meaningless. Before knowing his role, I was for keeping him alive, although I feared he was the fool and was stirring up as much mayhem to get people to lynch him.

I felt really shitty last night after how things went down. I know I let my teammates down. To see people saying I "ruined" the game feels even worse. I am very sorry if my stupid bullshit negatively impacted people's enjoyment of the game. I know I can get overbearing and a bit extra. If I'm in future games I will try to tone things down tremendously.

Dude, don't feel shitty. We all make bad calls while playing the game. It's only all clear and obvious in hindsight. But each time we play, we learn. In the heat of the moment, sometimes emotions cloud your judgment and cause you to make a bad play. That's the point of the metagame. That's why I was being obnoxious as hell, posting nonstop even though I was a known wolf. Mentioning the potion, insisting for multiple days that he was alchemist, all of those sowed just enough doubt even though I was the baddie. If Tubby's timeline had been revealed without me launching accusations, you probably would've chalked it up to an honest mistake and forgotten about it.

I feel like I could criticize every single player, including myself, in the last game for something (except canadaguy, you pretty much played perfectly from what I saw, leaflife represent ).

I do worry that it may drive people away or people get over invested and then need a break.

Me I just love it

Part of me feels like anyone who takes wolf so seriously that they get that upset about the game is... maybe not the type of person that I care to be sharing a board with anyway? Decide for yourself whether that's a pro- or anti- community take.

Anyway, I just love the game. It's a lot of fun, and it's one of those things that like, if I were to get killed off early, great, I can stop wasting so much time obsessing over the game and the metagame

you literally said the only thing needed to do to win the game is announce you're the seer, and the game is already over.

That's out of context. He said that about a hypothetical *other* game with completely different rules, not this game.

 

[Kat]

Wtf was the alchemist even DOING at this point if not finishing off Kat?

Right?! I mean, I'm not complaining, but I was really confused too. I was 100% genuine in my offer to tubby to not lynch him if he could explain wtf the alchemist had been up to.

I feel like just one more wolf may make for a more balanced game. Even though it reduces townies by one, it balances a bit by giving a larger pool of wolves to pick from.

I'd be fine with this if it's a normal wolf. It's a big buff having an extra wolf since their win condition is to make up half the town.

Anyway, I just love the game. It's a lot of fun, and it's one of those things that like, if I were to get killed off early, great, I can stop wasting so much time obsessing over the game and the metagame

Yeah, I was kinda relieved when I got killed pretty early last game. I still followed it, but I didn't feel pressured to keep up with it constantly.

 

[Zell 17]

There is no question that the game is weighted pro-town. That’s partly design, it would suck to be a townie and you lose because one villager out of 10 is dumb. You need multiple villagers to have a bad day for the town to lose. I’ve already said basically the town can afford to have 4 “mistakes” in a game, where mislynching counts for two. This game those would be:

Red Lady dies without info
Priest suicides
Town mislynches Tubby.

The medium, gunner, and Jailer can erase mistakes. Vash killed a wolf, giving the town another chance. But the wolves can have some abilities (like Alpha or guardian) that allow the townies fewer mistakes.

I’ll also note the out of the 4 games, the villagers have done consistently worse over time as the evils have figured out their strategies.

Game 1) Complete wipeout of the evils, never in doubt.
Game 2) Evils had some chances if they use berserk on Cole, village would have had to be perfect.
Game 3) Evils we’re doing very well until all burned alive by the RK.
Game 4) Evils win.

 

[Local Hero]

So, the only way for to town to win was to lynch RK and then get lucky with a trap, right?

And now a fault guardian wolf lynch has doomed them.

 

[Zell 17]

I'd be fine with this if it's a normal wolf. It's a big buff having an extra wolf since their win condition is to make up half the town.

Well, imagine for a minute that instead of an extra Beast Hunter tubby was the 5th wolf. Then the town would have lost despite a perfect lynching record and killing multiple wolves on day 2. Seems harsh, they would have almost been doomed since night 1.

 

[VashTheStampede]

So, the only way for to town to win was to lynch RK and then get lucky with a trap, right?

And now a fault guardian wolf lynch has doomed them.

I think technically if they get lucky with a trap tonight they have a shot?

 

[Smacktard]

So, the only way for to town to win was to lynch RK and then get lucky with a trap, right?

And now a fault guardian wolf lynch has doomed them.

Even if they didn't lynch the RK in the final rounds, they could've won. If they lynched me or Benzine it would've been a lock, and/or if they jailed and killed Benzine instead of me.

 

[Smacktard]

Well, imagine for a minute that instead of an extra Beast Hunter tubby was the 5th wolf. Then the town would have lost despite a perfect lynching record and killing multiple wolves on day 2. Seems harsh, they would have almost been doomed since night 1.

On the flipside, imagine if the red lady had visited me, and we'd seer'd the alchemist and the headhunter instead of the medium and the Gunner. I feel like the game would've been a lock then and there.

 

[Zell 17]

Even if they didn't lynch the RK in the final rounds, they could've won. If they lynched me or Benzine it would've been a lock, and/or if they jailed and killed Benzine instead of me.

There’s no way to know whether to jailkill you or Benzine though. If Benzine is the guardian, it’s better to jailkill him. If he Benzine is the Avenger, it’s better to jailkill you. Anything else and it doesn’t matter.

 

[Zell 17]

On the flipside, imagine if the red lady had visited me, and we'd seer'd the alchemist and the headhunter instead of the medium and the Gunner. I feel like the game would've been a lock then and there.

Well, in that case one of you can fake seer and say that the Alchemist is “Good” so hopefully he doesn’t potion your team since he’d know who you were.

And you could still kill the medium night 2 (since the medium can’t get dead info until the night) and the red lady info never gets revealed.

 

[Zell 17]

Let’s remember too that the evils didn’t have a perfect game here. The RK and wolves heavily cannibalized each other’s kills, and the RK killed a wolf early. Of the six potions that Raposa could hand out only 3 of them found their target:

2 red to Kat
1 black to Fool’s Requiem

The others:
Red to Tommy Boy (Blocked by jailer)
Black to Ants! (Cannibalized by wolves)
Black to Vash (Cannibalized by wolves)

And of course Raposa lost an entire night of potions that was also blocked by Vash.

 

[VashTheStampede]

Let’s remember too that the evils didn’t have a perfect game here. The RK and wolves heavily cannibalized each other’s kills, and the RK killed a wolf early. Of the six potions that Raposa could hand out only 3 of them found their target:

2 red to Kat
1 black to Fool’s Requiem

The others:
Red to Tommy Boy (Blocked by jailer)
Black to Ants! (Cannibalized by wolves)
Black to Vash (Cannibalized by wolves)

And of course Raposa lost an entire night of potions that was also blocked by Vash.

Holy crap I blocked 4 potions.

Sure one was my dead body but I'll count it.

 

[Smacktard]

Let’s remember too that the evils didn’t have a perfect game here. The RK and wolves heavily cannibalized each other’s kills, and the RK killed a wolf early. Of the six potions that Raposa could hand out only 3 of them found their target:

2 red to Kat
1 black to Fool’s Requiem

The others:
Red to Tommy Boy (Blocked by jailer)
Black to Ants! (Cannibalized by wolves)
Black to Vash (Cannibalized by wolves)

And of course Raposa lost an entire night of potions that was also blocked by Vash.

Not handing the second red to Kat and giving the black to Vash didn't make any sense. RK can win with the Jailer left, and one red on Kat led wolves to believe the second red would be delivered the very next day. I also recall Tommy asking quite loudly to be protected the night he was potion'd.

 

[Zell 17]

Not handing the second red to Kat and giving the black to Vash didn't make any sense. RK can win with the Jailer left, and one red on Kat led wolves to believe the second red would be delivered the very next day. I also recall Tommy asking quite loudly to be protected the night he was potion'd.

Yeah when I PMd Kit that his potion on Tommy was unsuccessful he immediately said “damn Jailer” so he knew. You’d have to ask him.

 

[Smacktard]

There’s no way to know whether to jailkill you or Benzine though. If Benzine is the guardian, it’s better to jailkill him. If he Benzine is the Avenger, it’s better to jailkill you. Anything else and it doesn’t matter.

How does it make sense to not jailkill Benzine if only if he's the Avenger? However he dies (if Avenger), he gets a revenge kill, no? Jailkilling me made less sense because my role as alpha wolf was known by that point, and guardian wolf's power doesn't work in jail.

 

[VashTheStampede]

Um dude Benzine is the bellringer I dunno where you're getting all this wolf talk

 

[shortkut]

 

[Zell 17]

How does it make sense to not jailkill Benzine if only if he's the Avenger? However he dies (if Avenger), he gets a revenge kill, no? Jailkilling me made less sense because my role as alpha wolf was known by that point, and guardian wolf's power doesn't work in jail.

Wolf Avenger’s ability is less powerful if they are the last killed. Take today’s 3 v 1 v 1 and let’s say benzine is wolf avenger.

If the town lynches the RK first and avenger second, the town win (3 v 1 after killing RK, 2 v 1 after wolf kill, villagers kill wolf avenger and after the tag one villager remains).

If the town lynched the wolf avenger first and RK second, the town loses. It’s a 2v1 heading to the night phase, and after the RK kills it’s 1v1 and unwinnable.

Now take the situation you guys were in, after lynching Tubby it was 5 town vs 2 wolves and 1 RK. Let’s say benzine is Wolf Avenger. If Vash kills you, the town can have a 3 v 1 v 1 if wolves and RK choose the same person for one of the kills (which they did). If Vash kills a wolf avenger, the town loses a member instantly (probably Vash). Then it is a 4 v 1 v 1 heading into night and will become 2 v 1 v 1 or 1 v 1 v 1. Raposa hands out a second red and a black, and if the wolf choose one of those two people it’s 2 v 1 v 1. If they choose another it’s 1 v 1 v 1.

 

[Zell 17]

Fire Queen is choosing to keep her trap on herself. If I’m Benzine I consider not killing anyone tonight. Probably doesn’t make a difference though.

 

[Smacktard]

Fire Queen is choosing to keep her trap on herself.

I think everyone expected that.

If I’m Benzine I consider not killing anyone tonight.

I wouldn't risk it knowing that the RK could choose to do the same thing, though it wouldn't make any sense for them not to
(many such cases!)

 

[VashTheStampede]

I feel like with how short our games are (day-wise) you almost have to take a flier with your trap early and put it on someone else. That extra day for it to activate is a LOT when there's only 3-4 night phases.