So, are we going to get more peoples or is this going to fizzle out like the GW revamp?

[Fool's Requiem]

Serious question. I feel like we need more than a handful of people here.

I don't have any connections and I do not use Discord, so I can't help.

I'd really like to have a place for general conversation (on the internet) without feeling like everyone either hates each other or having to resort to going to a subreddit where no one is going to see my comments to call me out on my stupidity

 

[Mark]

Serious question. I feel like we need more than a handful of people here.

I don't have any connections and I do not use Discord, so I can't help.

I'd really like to have a place for general conversation (on the internet) without feeling like everyone either hates each other or having to resort to going to a subreddit where no one is going to see my comments to call me out on my stupidity

@Crystal had a pretty ambitious plan even bringing this place back from the dead to begin with, so the odds are already stacked against us.

The fact of the matter is that we “live” in an entirely different environment online than we used to, so the old ways are going to have to adapt. Truth be told, I have no clue what the plan is with this place. My sole objective in helping with it is to at the minimum, help facilitate a more functional version of the various remnants we have scattered around the different platforms. Like you, I don’t use Discord. I don’t stream. I don’t have access to the other pockets of members scattered around. Whoever suggested or actually followed through with the idea of reaching out to the PIMI crowd on whatever platform is on the right track… We need to hunt down those pockets of former members and convert them. There’s no other option. They need to be corrupted, even if they don’t know it yet.

Beyond recruiting the other oldies, the next step would be some form of active promotion… something to drive new traffic here.

Eventually, that’ll necessitate some form of OC. Honestly, this is where I think the collaborative efforts from all of us will pay off. We have a lot of unique personalities with a lot of specialties here… we’re not a bunch of dumb kids with too much time on our hands anymore. We could truly do something that not only pays tribute to our early years in the community, but build something new that plays off of everything we’ve learned in the years past.

Edit - To build onto this… I’m wondering if maybe leaning into the “old school” nature of forums would be the way to go. Specifically appeal to like-minded old heads that don’t necessarily want to participate in these newfangled Discords or Reddits. There HAS to be a demographic of people like us, looking for that tight-knit community. Don’t be mistaken, I don’t want to be a part of something that’s cashing in on the nostalgia train… but I do think our strengths here lie in the fundamental purpose of forums like this. We don’t need content about “10 secrets of Skyrim” or a thesis piece on the social psychology behind titles like GTAVI.

 

[Crystal]

@Mark's pretty spot on, the odds were slim that this would become a booming forum the likes of GameWinners in the past, but my sole ambition here was to give us, the contingent of GW members who still long for a real forum home, a place to exist. If we can grow it into an active community, fantastic! If not, at least those of us who are here and the few that might join us will have a place to come and chat with friends. I hope we can gather as many of our lost members as possible. No, we aren't at all the teens we used to be with days of free time, but we can definitely make something here. If we can build a small core of dedicated members and bring back as many extended contacts as we can, or even some fresh blood that share some of our interests, then we have a shot. Otherwise, I don't plan on taking things offline here, for as long as I can, this forum will stay online for those of us who had our home taken from us. Even if we don't all visit often, we still have that home. I hope this will be a success and we can get as many of us here as possible, that is the dream. Let's see how things play out

 

[Holly]

I've reached out to a few old GW members that I'm still in touch with. Regardless of the future of this forum I'm glad that it is here. I much prefer this form of message board. Reddit is great and all, but the humor and in-jokes that happen on message boards are unique.

 

[Mark]

I've reached out to a few old GW members that I'm still in touch with. Regardless of the future of this forum I'm glad that it is here. I much prefer this form of message board. Reddit is great and all, but the humor and in-jokes that happen on message boards are unique.

And this is exactly what it’s gonna take… I’m in regular contact with a few old members as well, and have every intention of letting them know about this. We gotta spread this the old fashioned way… like herpes.

 

[Crystal]

Accurate! We need to get our golden oldies back, let them remember why we loved the forums, and then we can get them to spread the word to their friends, etc. This can work

 

[Raine]

The problem we've had during every pseudo-revival attempt is just figuring out where to aim and how to get started. I think, from a practical standpoint, we've generally taken the approach that we ask the people that are here what they want and then hope to provide that.

...And that's never remotely worked. There's, maybe obviously, a distinct difference between what people think they want (if they even answer the query) and what the actual reality of that looks like. As a quick and dirty example: A lot of us were still big on playing Halo prior to the start of the late-aughts death spiral. Made sense to try and do something with that, right? Well... no. What the fuck do you discuss about Halo? Nothing. You play Halo. And even playing Halo means different things to different people. Hell, turns out it wasn't even just the shooty-shooty bang-bang, there was also mucking about with Forge and racing. Racing! In Halo!

GTA, another "lots of people still play this," had even less traction. Though, in fairness, this would also be pre-GTA Online. But, functionally the same problem there I should think. I've spent the last 10 years chiefly playing MMOs; my friend groups generally do not follow me from game to game. Some scant few do, for a very brief period, but it's not sustainable. I would imagine this is a similar sticking point with non-gaming subjects. All your sportsballs and NASCARs and whatnot. I don't necessarily see the/a forum being particularly conducive to (re)building a community for/around that. I mean I assume the various pockets will chat about that, just through iMessage, or Discord, or hell even just meeting up depending.

At some point, the answer is just that you yell into the wind and it becomes what it becomes. Nobody's going to show up, much less stay, if there's nothing to look at. So, that's what I intend to do. Crystal set up this forum and drug me back out of permanent retirement kicking and screaming, so instead of ranting and raving into a desolate Discord server like I normally do, I'll throw out some of that energy into ranting and raving here instead. If anyone looks at it? Great. If not... uh, business as usual on my end. I did it for a little while on the subreddit, but like... Reddit fucking sucks, man.

 

[Crystal]

Lots of valid points @Warp, we're at the point now essentially where it is a case of let's just do what we do and see how it goes. If we get people chatting and responding, fantastic! If we don't, that's ok, at least we have a place to come to, a place to call home. If we're the only ones that like that? Cool. In the last two days I've gotten more enjoyment out of just sitting and staring at the names of people registered here than I have out of just about anything. Why? Because these are people from my home, people I know and don't know at the same time, people that we all collectively grew up with. I don't care if this is all we get out of it, it's made me so happy and I can take that with me forever. Hopefully others come, see what we have here and join in. Chat with us about GW, about gaming, about anything, because we're here, we can, and it will be right here the next day when we get back. I love this home and I love all of you for being a part of it. If this is another doomed effort, then let's at least have fun doing it

Crystal set up this forum and drug me back out of permanent retirement kicking and screaming, so instead of ranting and raving into a desolate Discord server like I normally do, I'll throw out some of that energy into ranting and raving here instead. If anyone looks at it? Great. If not... uh, business as usual on my end. I did it for a little while on the subreddit, but like... Reddit fucking sucks, man.

And I'd do it again, and again, and again lol. We need our points of contact, so if I have to beg and plead on Discord to get people to jump in, I'll do it

 

[Raine]

I don't care if this is all we get out of it, it's made me so happy and I can take that with me forever. Hopefully others come, see what we have here and join in. Chat with us about GW, about gaming, about anything, because we're here, we can, and it will be right here the next day when we get back. I love this home and I love all of you for being a part of it. If this is another doomed effort, then let's at least have fun doing it

And at the end of the day, this is all that matters.

It's real easy to get ahead of yourself and overthink things. Which doesn't have to be a bad thing, but at the same time I would maybe liken it to recording a concert on your phone. You're there, but like, you're also not. And we're here now, so let's play around. Worry about the details later.

The community seems to have a bit of a resurgence whenever something significant happens. So if nothing else, that shows that we're all still interested at least a bit. All you need is a spark at that point.

 

[Crystal]

And at the end of the day, this is all that matters.

It's real easy to get ahead of yourself and overthink things. Which doesn't have to be a bad thing, but at the same time I would maybe liken it to recording a concert on your phone. You're there, but like, you're also not. And we're here now, so let's play around. Worry about the details later.

The community seems to have a bit of a resurgence whenever something significant happens. So if nothing else, that shows that we're all still interested at least a bit. All you need is a spark at that point.

Absolutely true. Live in the here and now when it comes to this forum. We don't know what's going to happen, we just know we needed this place, and now we have it. That's perfect for right now

...now to drag Al out of his slumber and get him to be an active member

 

[Mark]

The problem we've had during every pseudo-revival attempt is just figuring out where to aim and how to get started. I think, from a practical standpoint, we've generally taken the approach that we ask the people that are here what they want and then hope to provide that.

...And that's never remotely worked. There's, maybe obviously, a distinct difference between what people think they want (if they even answer the query) and what the actual reality of that looks like. As a quick and dirty example: A lot of us were still big on playing Halo prior to the start of the late-aughts death spiral. Made sense to try and do something with that, right? Well... no. What the fuck do you discuss about Halo? Nothing. You play Halo. And even playing Halo means different things to different people. Hell, turns out it wasn't even just the shooty-shooty bang-bang, there was also mucking about with Forge and racing. Racing! In Halo!

GTA, another "lots of people still play this," had even less traction. Though, in fairness, this would also be pre-GTA Online. But, functionally the same problem there I should think. I've spent the last 10 years chiefly playing MMOs; my friend groups generally do not follow me from game to game. Some scant few do, for a very brief period, but it's not sustainable. I would imagine this is a similar sticking point with non-gaming subjects. All your sportsballs and NASCARs and whatnot. I don't necessarily see the/a forum being particularly conducive to (re)building a community for/around that. I mean I assume the various pockets will chat about that, just through iMessage, or Discord, or hell even just meeting up depending.

At some point, the answer is just that you yell into the wind and it becomes what it becomes. Nobody's going to show up, much less stay, if there's nothing to look at. So, that's what I intend to do. Crystal set up this forum and drug me back out of permanent retirement kicking and screaming, so instead of ranting and raving into a desolate Discord server like I normally do, I'll throw out some of that energy into ranting and raving here instead. If anyone looks at it? Great. If not... uh, business as usual on my end. I did it for a little while on the subreddit, but like... Reddit fucking sucks, man.

I don’t think you could have beaten that nail in the head anymore than you did. @Crystal and I were responsible for two of the three biggest GW spin-offs, and they were both nearly at the peak of GW’s activity as well as at the peak of people’s unhappiness with GW. That led us both to approach the situation with the members in mind on our respective ventures… What do THEY want? We already knew what people didn’t like about GW and the direction it was going, so what do we do? Giving the members the final say was the most practical solution, but… you’re right, with no real direction, things always spiraled. Crystal went a route that incorporated features into the forums that were stripped out of GW’s base forum software… it’s no secret that Al even stripped out basic functions, leading to some of the complications we experienced with random errors. It’s also no secret that Al was very restrictive on the content we were allowed to permit due to AdSense… despite the others and myself being admins, we were mostly there to perform functions… no alterations to the rules or anything down those lines. That’s where 8-Ball and PIMI were able to push those boundaries similarly to how the T-Dome did in regards to trolling and insulting people. Those lawless forums and similar were popular on the spin-offs, and ultimately ended up being incorporated into GW in an attempt to drive activity. It worked, temporarily, but was still simply a reversal of the spin-off plague that we faced. GW forums worked outside of GW, for a while. Forums or concepts outside of GW worked for a while as well, but they were also side-eyed as attempts to make GW like the spin-offs.

Long after I left GW as an admin and spent my days offline, I returned to see a shell of what once was. Somehow or another, I ended up in communication with Coleman and we developed RemarkablyStupid and launched that. That was probably the closest we came to producing something with any chance at longevity because it was such a departure from GW, yet still familiar enough to reel in the old heads that were frustrated with GW and still holding onto hope. I feel a lot of the success we experienced with that was due to timing… we had a bunch of people on the verge of leaving GW because they were unhappy with Ben or whoever else was pushing the buttons. We don’t have that luxury of a bunch of folks on standby anymore. However… timing was also against us because the 4chans and the Reddits of the internet were already in full bloom… and then you had two old fuckfaces come in with antiquated software and pipe dreams of a better community. My point behind mentioning this is that you’re right about another thing… setting out to be a clone never worked, and the closest we got to success was attempting to stick to a formula that was working at the time.

As far as you final paragraph… I think that kinda goes hand in hand with what we’re talking about doing here. However, I do still believe that in order to achieve that… it needs to be a collaborative effort between all of us members. We all didn’t frequent GW at the same time or for the same reasons, so in this present day iteration where you have the first non-Al admin and the last non-Al admin working together, you’re essentially looking at two wildly different bookends covering decades of history. There’s no possible way either of us could answer the questions of what everybody wants, so we’re just gonna have to wing it and get as much feedback as possible.

I really am glad that we’re getting some solid discussion going on the future of this, though. There’s no such thing as a shitty idea, because we’re early enough in to where anything is tangible.

Edit - I also think that keeping that thread in the Facebook group going is going to be a good way to maintain some visibility there, as it was pure luck that I saw the post about this among all the talk of missing subs and red versus blue.

 

[Raine]

What do THEY want? We already knew what people didn’t like about GW and the direction it was going, so what do we do? Giving the members the final say was the most practical solution, but… you’re right, with no real direction, things always spiraled.

Mmhm. And I realize I'm not really saying anything particularly insightful here, but like, even after you get the ball rolling you then have to find a way to get the general community, specifically non-staff, members to contribute themselves. In what I would think we could safely call the twilight years, the last hurrah, of the original forum we almost got something going again. People like Fool's Requiem and Quagmire, staff like Neo Matrix, Spiner202, Crystal - myself, obviously - we were pushing. Unfortunately, because of real life obligations, we didn't manage to push collectively at the same time. Like you said. And, y'know, it fizzled. We lost people's attention/interest. Things got quieter. We lost more.

Direction and realistic goal first, lightning in a bottle with people actively wanting to talk here instead of elsewhere (helped by social media fucking imploding at the moment ), then... holding the line and creating some form of "new" (or probably, repurposed) content to draw in new eyes to manage churn. I'm not going to say that I'm completely useless outside of gaming, but I'm not as well-versed in other entertainment mediums and I've got some nuclear hot takes in other fields that maybe aren't conducive to fostering a community.

It’s also no secret that Al was very restrictive on the content we were allowed to permit due to AdSense… despite the others and myself being admins, we were mostly there to perform functions… no alterations to the rules or anything down those lines.

Tangentially, it always really bugged me that bloat and confusion were the order of the day because of maybe valid, but nevertheless stupid, ad-minded policies that were in place. There was seemingly no topic, especially on gaming side, that didn't have at least 3 technically valid places that a topic would fit. Which only served to divide and fracture what community there was, and served - in my estimation - to discourage people from posting at all.

We don’t have that luxury of a bunch of folks on standby anymore. However… timing was also against us because the 4chans and the Reddits of the internet were already in full bloom… and then you had two old fuckfaces come in with antiquated software and pipe dreams of a better community. My point behind mentioning this is that you’re right about another thing… setting out to be a clone never worked, and the closest we got to success was attempting to stick to a formula that was working at the time.

Reddit and the Chans were certainly a factor, but traditional forums still have appeal. I'm seeing a lot of that sentiment around the internet right now especially, though that could be nostalgia instead of actual want/demand. More than anything, I think, what ended up kneecapping us was the site not evolving - cheat codes don't exist anymore, functionally haven't existed for 16~17 years, those are paid DLC now if they exist at all - and sadly just better message board alternatives existed and/or cropped up. SomethingAwful is still around, I think, there are/were more niche hobby enthusiast boards around for 4X, tabletops and Let's Plays, and of course there's the titan that was NeoGAF/is ResetEra for gaming.

But yeah, cloning doesn't work. At absolute best, if you're a clone, you just wind up attracting people that the source community exiled. And if you look at, say, a 4chan vs an 8chan... that simply doesn't end well. For anyone.

 

[Holly]

Reddit and the Chans were certainly a factor, but traditional forums still have appeal. I'm seeing a lot of that sentiment around the internet right now especially, though that could be nostalgia instead of actual want/demand. More than anything, I think, what ended up kneecapping us was the site not evolving - cheat codes don't exist anymore, functionally haven't existed for 16~17 years, those are paid DLC now if they exist at all - and sadly just better message board alternatives existed and/or cropped up. SomethingAwful is still around, I think, there are/were more niche hobby enthusiast boards around for 4X, tabletops and Let's Plays, and of course there's the titan that was NeoGAF/is ResetEra for gaming.

I think another big factor was stagnation of the main site. At some point it just stopped being updated and became an unmanageable mess, like an abandoned house all coming up weeds. When it went down and the forums were left I think time was already against us. New members had no reason to seek out and engage those forums. Props to Crystal and Coleman for doing what they could, but time was always against them.

 

[Raine]

Oh, absolutely. And you really can't even get into discussing the main site without immediately having to point out that it was completely infested with malware and trackers because of all the dubious ads.

I ain't even gonna lie here, GW is why I learned about ad-blockers existing and why I still use them to this day. I don't whitelist a goddamn thing.

So about those nuclear hot takes... lol

 

[Mark]

Mmhm. And I realize I'm not really saying anything particularly insightful here, but like, even after you get the ball rolling you then have to find a way to get the general community, specifically non-staff, members to contribute themselves. In what I would think we could safely call the twilight years, the last hurrah, of the original forum we almost got something going again. People like Fool's Requiem and Quagmire, staff like Neo Matrix, Spiner202, Crystal - myself, obviously - we were pushing. Unfortunately, because of real life obligations, we didn't manage to push collectively at the same time. Like you said. And, y'know, it fizzled. We lost people's attention/interest. Things got quieter. We lost more.

No, you really are giving insight, though, but on a management level. You’re giving a perspective that we as former admins first lose sight of when forced to focus of the community as a whole. I don’t want to seem like I’m making excuses, but in the midst of daily functions it’s very easy to neglect driving activity to certain forums. In the spin-off forums especially, as evident here by the top posters, it’s most easiest to see how much of that activity is staff-generated early on. The problem is… it’s gotta start somewhere, so you wind up with an influx of admin posts with members sprinkled in because everyone’s just kinda standing around twiddling their thumbs waiting for something to kick off. We definitely need to get some more topics going, that’s for sure. When there’s stuff to engage in, there are going to be more people willing to put the effort in to get engaged themselves. Instead, you see what we have now… plenty of 0-10 post accounts, which is our basic metric for inactive at this scale. Comparatively, we’d consider accounts older than 1 year with 0-100 posts inactive at a site like GW.

Direction and realistic goal first, lightning in a bottle with people actively wanting to talk here instead of elsewhere (helped by social media fucking imploding at the moment ), then... holding the line and creating some form of "new" (or probably, repurposed) content to draw in new eyes to manage churn. I'm not going to say that I'm completely useless outside of gaming, but I'm not as well-versed in other entertainment mediums and I've got some nuclear hot takes in other fields that maybe aren't conducive to fostering a community.

Honestly, controversy was one of the biggest driving factors in late GW activity. There was a time where I was still on staff there and saw a sharp decline in the game forums while the RL forums were among the most active. Part of what’s damning social media is censorship. You have far right and left folks neutering the internet one day at a time. I won’t speak for @Crystal, but I am certainly not objective to seeing controversial topics discussed that may seem divisive or “non-conducive to fostering a community”, because I’m of the variety that believes the only way we’re going to solve any of our problems is by talking about them and not burying the topic. Sure, it opens the door to potential issues… but that’s what moderation and grown up underwear are for. Does that mean I want to see this turn into a vessel for hate speech? Hell no, but I firmly believe that dialogue is important.

Tangentially, it always really bugged me that bloat and confusion were the order of the day because of maybe valid, but nevertheless stupid, ad-minded policies that were in place. There was seemingly no topic, especially on gaming side, that didn't have at least 3 technically valid places that a topic would fit. Which only served to divide and fracture what community there was, and served - in my estimation - to discourage people from posting at all.

I agree… one of the things I noticed over the years with GW both during my time there and on brief visits after was that “we” never really did a great job scaling things. There was a time that necessitated having a dedicated Sonic forum, but that time passed and still a theoretical forum sat collecting dust because no one wanted to be the one to put it down. Fear of evolution was also a major thing the community struggled with… For example… I noticed the CE forum was held onto for dear life. It died long before it was removed. There were so many things that used to be sent to that forum from others because it didn’t fit anywhere else at the time, and then there was nothing sent there because everything had a forum… even off-topic stuff got filtered out eventually. Why wasn’t it repurposed? Why did it get to a point where no one went through and balanced everything back out? It doesn’t just fall on one person, either. Scale was an ongoing thing, both to save server space and also as a matter of where to focus on directing the traffic. When a forum like Clubs and Clans is generating more activity on a video gaming community than some of the triple A titles, you almost HAVE to question the focus of the community… and at the end of the day, Al still wanted the focus to be on gaming despite the clear message the members were sending with their activity. The dedicated members stayed on their side, the casuals that only came there for cheats or help stayed in the gaming side… with few venturing out beyond that. There never was a clear bridge between the community and the game forums. Sure, I moderated the GTA Series forum… but you better believe I didn’t see but a few of y’all regulars in there, and the regulars I saw there I didn’t see in C&C which I also moderated at the same time. We need to fix that this time around.

Reddit and the Chans were certainly a factor, but traditional forums still have appeal. I'm seeing a lot of that sentiment around the internet right now especially, though that could be nostalgia instead of actual want/demand. More than anything, I think, what ended up kneecapping us was the site not evolving - cheat codes don't exist anymore, functionally haven't existed for 16~17 years, those are paid DLC now if they exist at all - and sadly just better message board alternatives existed and/or cropped up. SomethingAwful is still around, I think, there are/were more niche hobby enthusiast boards around for 4X, tabletops and Let's Plays, and of course there's the titan that was NeoGAF/is ResetEra for gaming.

That’s good to hear, because this is the most time I’ve spent on an online community in years… so I’m completely oblivious to what’s even out there. I am definitely on the same page as you with wanting to see an evolution.

But yeah, cloning doesn't work. At absolute best, if you're a clone, you just wind up attracting people that the source community exiled. And if you look at, say, a 4chan vs an 8chan... that simply doesn't end well. For anyone.

The problem that we always had with the GW clones/spinoffs is that they always ended up the same way… divided by ideology, implosion by poor decisions, or simply the novelty got old and everyone decided to head back on over to GW where there was more activity to sift through.

I think another big factor was stagnation of the main site. At some point it just stopped being updated and became an unmanageable mess, like an abandoned house all coming up weeds. When it went down and the forums were left I think time was already against us. New members had no reason to seek out and engage those forums. Props to Crystal and Coleman for doing what they could, but time was always against them.

You’re 100% right, which is why I like the fact that @Crystal didn’t give two fucks about incorporating a main site into even the domain name. FORUMS. That’s it. I will say that I am a HUGE fan of the idea of CMS integration in the event that this forum becomes active enough. It would be nice to have the main page as a sort of directory to what content is active and perhaps OC content like member streams or podcasts or whatever the cool kids do. Point being… having any of that CENTERED around the community and it’s members would be ideal.

 

[Crystal]

No bloatware, malware, ads or pop-unders coming to this site anytime soon

 

[Crystal]

I won’t speak for @Crystal, but I am certainly not objective to seeing controversial topics discussed that may seem divisive or “non-conducive to fostering a community”, because I’m of the variety that believes the only way we’re going to solve any of our problems is by talking about them and not burying the topic. Sure, it opens the door to potential issues… but that’s what moderation and grown up underwear are for. Does that mean I want to see this turn into a vessel for hate speech? Hell no, but I firmly believe that dialogue is important.

I want to address this specifically -- I'm with you, as you might guess from me being...ya' know, me...I have routinely come across people that are not so genial towards me and those like me. The best they can do, though, is have the right to speak, to share those views, because only through open discussion can things ever truly be worked out, and the same is true for any contentious topic. Yes, completely agreed that it still needs to be moderated to make sure it's not just an outright hate speech fest, but civil discourse is so, so important, just as it was back then.

You’re 100% right, which is why I like the fact that @Crystal didn’t give two fucks about incorporating a main site into even the domain name. FORUMS. That’s it. I will say that I am a HUGE fan of the idea of CMS integration in the event that this forum becomes active enough. It would be nice to have the main page as a sort of directory to what content is active and perhaps OC content like member streams or podcasts or whatever the cool kids do. Point being… having any of that CENTERED around the community and it’s members would be ideal.

Agreed, I wanted to start with the forums, the heartbeat of our community, and build out from there. We can add whatever we need in time, but at least we have our foundation, our core.

 

[Mark]

I want to address this specifically -- I'm with you, as you might guess from me being...ya' know, me...I have routinely come across people that are not so genial towards me and those like me. The best they can do, though, is have the right to speak, to share those views, because only through open discussion can things ever truly be worked out, and the same is true for any contentious topic. Yes, completely agreed that it still needs to be moderated to make sure it's not just an outright hate speech fest, but civil discourse is so, so important, just as it was back then.

Naturally, correct me if I’m calling this wrong, but you have a section of people that virtue signal in your favor because they think it’s the cool thing to do all the while they’re doing the exact thing y’all don’t want… treating y’all differently, the section that spews hate because they think it’s the cool thing to do, and the people that just brush right past you no different than anyone else on the street. As controversial of a subject as that is specifically, I’m confident that all of us would be able to handle it easily. For fuck’s sake… we’ve already dealt with tworow2 being two people for over a decade, I’ve never met a trans person that weird. After that, this crowd can discuss just about anything.

 

[Fool's Requiem]

I'm of the "do what you want" opinion. There are some things I don't agree with, but I think some of those are overblown or exaggerated in attempts to anger certain people who get needlessly upset over things.

There is another slight POV aspect to it that I don't feel to share because it's not my place, but again... I'm not you, why should I have a say in what you do? If you're not actively hurting anyone, none of us should give a shit.

I do think it is HILARIOUS that people started boycotting Busch because of that marketing campaign. As if they really needed a reason to "boycott" their bread flavored piss water.

Edit: ehh, sorry, that wasn't EXACTLY relevant to what was being stated. Hard to state that I'm not interested in virtue signaling without seeming like that's exactly what I'm doing, so I prefer to be more forthright.

 

[Crystal]

Naturally, correct me if I’m calling this wrong, but you have a section of people that virtue signal in your favor because they think it’s the cool thing to do all the while they’re doing the exact thing y’all don’t want… treating y’all differently,

Very much so.

the section that spews hate because they think it’s the cool thing to do,

Lots of those types

and the people that just brush right past you no different than anyone else on the street.

Love those types

As controversial of a subject as that is specifically, I’m confident that all of us would be able to handle it easily. For fuck’s sake… we’ve already dealt with tworow2 being two people for over a decade, I’ve never met a trans person that weird. After that, this crowd can discuss just about anything.

I agree, we all grew up on the mean streets of GW, lol, we're not sheltered from different viewpoints, opinions, backgrounds, etc. We've seen and dealt with it all, and hell, it's not like this is the first time GW has had openly trans members, lest we forget those who came before us

 

[Crystal]

There is another slight POV aspect to it that I don't feel to share because it's not my place,

Don't feel like you can't speak your mind, we're all grownups here, we can have mature discussions about things, even uncomfortable things.

 

[Mark]

I'm of the "do what you want" opinion. There are some things I don't agree with, but I think some of those are overblown or exaggerated in attempts to anger certain people who get needlessly upset over things.

There is another slight POV aspect to it that I don't feel to share because it's not my place, but again... I'm not you, why should I have a say in what you do? If you're not actively hurting anyone, none of us should give a shit.

I do think it is HILARIOUS that people started boycotting Busch because of that marketing campaign. As if they really needed a reason to "boycott" their bread flavored piss water.

I’ll straight up (no pun intended) say some of the things I don’t agree with, simply to get a consensus from @Crystal… allowing children at Pride events that contain what would be considered adult content if it were heterosexual in nature, the non-disclosure to parents of gender or sexual identity conversations being had at schools in some states (schools have long been the source of sexual education for children, and this is the end result of that… parents and pediatricians, or gynecologists in the case of biological females when they reach the age of menstruation), and the goddamn parents who provide their children hormones or life-changing surgeries because their son plays with Barbies instead of G.I. Joe’s. I know it isn’t that black and white, some kids genuinely feel out of place in their own bodies at a young age and remain that way… but how many stories have we seen where kids end up growing up and realizing they were just going through a phase? Again, I’m aware that there are some kids that grow up and evolve into that identity as well, but everyone can agree that we didn’t know shit when we were kids, we didn’t know shit when we were teens, and we’re better versed at realizing we don’t know shit as adults. As a parent, I think children should be given the time to just be kids and not face outside influence from adults that think they have a better understanding of what their child is than their child can even comprehend at that age.

 

[Mark]

Very much so.

Lots of those types

Love those types

I agree, we all grew up on the mean streets of GW, lol, we're not sheltered from different viewpoints, opinions, backgrounds, etc. We've seen and dealt with it all, and hell, it's not like this is the first time GW has had openly trans members, lest we forget those who came before us

Smashing/Char was actually the first trans person that I EVER had a conversation with, and she was one of the coolest people you could ever carry a conversation with.

 

[Fool's Requiem]

Don't feel like you can't speak your mind, we're all grownups here, we can have mature discussions about things, even uncomfortable things.

I think there's a serious discussion to be had regarding male athletes transitioning to being a female and participating in female athletic competitions that definitely needs to be had, but no one is willing to have an adult conversation about it.

I think there is the whole "just a phase" thing that Mark mentioned for kids (not adults who have a total understanding of who they are).

I also personally think that the action is (for a lack of a better word) unnecessary/fruitless. I also don't like the way some things are discussed by those who transition, some of the arguments made, and some of the buzzwords used that give me the same feeling of annoyance as words like "drip" and "rizz".

But again, I refuse to tell anyone what to do with themselves and I will try my best to not treat people differently because of personal choices they made. I guess the best comparison I have are tattoos, because you're basically making a permanent change to your body. I will never get one for a multitude of reasons (one of them being pain, I'm a pansy), but I'm not going to say "You can't do that" and won't treat you like some kind of villain because you made a personal decision that does not impact my life in the least.

 

[Crystal]

I’ll straight up (no pun intended) say some of the things I don’t agree with, simply to get a consensus from @Crystal…

I can't speak on behalf of all trans people, I can only speak for myself, but of course I'll chime in!

allowing children at Pride events that contain what would be considered adult content if it were heterosexual in nature,

Pride is meant to be a showing of unity, togetherness and openness, but it has definitely been perverted into something less and less family friendly in recent times, and while I would still encourage families to attend pride events with their kids when the event is a bit better moderated, I would not want kids at the ones where people are...a bit more open about everything.

the non-disclosure to parents of gender or sexual identity conversations being had at schools in some states (schools have long been the source of sexual education for children, and this is the end result of that… parents and pediatricians, or gynecologists in the case of biological females when they reach the age of menstruation),

That one can be situational. We know all too well the stories of kids disowned by their parents for being gay, bi, lesbians, it's true for trans kids, too. Getting help from a counselor or confiding in a teacher because if they tell their parents they'll risk who knows what should not be looked down on. If it reaches a point where the kid is saying things that are concerning, then yes, involve the parents, and if the child has no such fears, then of course, include the parents. Ultimately, the situations where kids are confiding in school officials for help are situations where the school should be building up their confidence to talk to their parents, even if they want the school to mediate that talk. Facing the reality of who you are, and then having to explain that reality to people who have a significant say in your life is a horrifying thing. My dad is a bigot, a nasty one. He's the only member of my family that doesn't know because I don't want to deal with him. I'm an adult, that's fine, but I also repressed so much about myself growing up because I was scared of him becoming abusive towards me. That's true for a lot of kids in those situations.

and the goddamn parents who provide their children hormones or life-changing surgeries because their son plays with Barbies instead of G.I. Joe’s.

This one's more of a speculative point that gets brought up than an actual truth. No matter how much they push, parents cannot simply get their child hormones or gender-affirming surgeries. It is illegal, 100%. Hormones cannot start earlier than 16 years old with parental supervision or 18 as an adult. Gender-affirming surgeries cannot be performed under any circumstances until the child is 18 years old. Isolated cases where it becomes a situation of life or death have happened, but the overwhelming majority of cases are fictionalized or blown so far out of proportion they do not accurately reflect what truly happened. Kids can get hormone blockers at a certain age to delay puberty, and I know that strikes a chord for some, too, but what those people don't take into account is that hormone blockers are reversible and while it's fine to be upset at the chemical delay of puberty, it's important to consider the viewpoint of the child that's struggling. For me, I knew something about me was different from a very early age. I also learned very early in life that the nail which stands out gets hammered, so I shut myself down and withdrew into myself, wondering all about these feelings I felt and repressing as much as I could. It led to teenage depression, suicide attempts, denial, and I was generally not a good person to be around. At 18 I had the first chance to come out, to be me and to live my life, but I let my fear over family matters crush my needs. Enduring male puberty when you have the brain of a female is a never-ending nightmare. Your body taking on this broad frame, deep voice, while your compatriots are heading in the totally opposite direction. You feel a complete disconnect from yourself, from reality, and you feel a disconnect from male and female, because you know who you should be, but you're not experiencing what they're experiencing, and you don't want to be experiencing what you are experiencing. If I'd had the chance to take hormone blockers and delay puberty, I'd have done that in a heartbeat. To not have to endure the anguish, the torment of going down the wrong path would have been life changing. So I'm not opposed to those who, with the guidance of a counselor to be absolutely certain they understand what everything entails that they are sure this is what they need (not want, if it's a want that's an instant red flag), then they should have the right to hormone blockers. Not hormones, hormone blockers.

I know it isn’t that black and white, some kids genuinely feel out of place in their own bodies at a young age and remain that way… but how many stories have we seen where kids end up growing up and realizing they were just going through a phase?

Not nearly as many as certain media outlets would have you believe. While it is being sensationalized nationally, and indeed globally, the trans community is still extremely small, and the vast majority of transitioners are happy with their lives post-transition, with dysphoria completely regressing in many cases. Are there some who experience regret and some who detransition? Of course there are, there always will be, but they're more the exceptions that prove the rule. Again, this is an area where therapy is needed before any action is taken.

Again, I’m aware that there are some kids that grow up and evolve into that identity as well, but everyone can agree that we didn’t know shit when we were kids, we didn’t know shit when we were teens, and we’re better versed at realizing we don’t know shit as adults.

I knew who I was very early, for some of us it's irrefutable, that knowledge is there from early childhood onward and it doesn't go away no matter how hard we try. I'm not saying that's true for everyone, but look at yourself -- did you ever think you were a girl or did you always know you were a boy? It's the same thing, albeit at a very high level

As a parent, I think children should be given the time to just be kids and not face outside influence from adults that think they have a better understanding of what their child is than their child can even comprehend at that age.

Agreed, completely, but again, there are still those who KNOW.

Smashing/Char was actually the first trans person that I EVER had a conversation with, and she was one of the coolest people you could ever carry a conversation with.

Yep, most are just normal people who happen to be trans. Nerds, jocks, musicians, full blown morons just like me

 

[Crystal]

I think there's a serious discussion to be had regarding male athletes transitioning to being a female and participating in female athletic competitions that definitely needs to be had, but no one is willing to have an adult conversation about it.

I don't know what the answer is there, my suggestion was an open category. I know a lot of people want there to be a trans category, but that's not inclusion so much as just making damn sure trans athletes know they're being turned into a sideshow. At least an open category puts everyone on level footing.

I think there is the whole "just a phase" thing that Mark mentioned for kids (not adults who have a total understanding of who they are).

I'm sure that's a thing for some, absolutely, and that's where therapy comes into play.

I also personally think that the action is (for a lack of a better word) unnecessary/fruitless.

I don't know what you mean by action?

I also don't like the way some things are discussed by those who transition, some of the arguments made, and some of the buzzwords used that give me the same feeling of annoyance as words like "drip" and "rizz".

Such as? There are only specific terms that apply, and on the argument side a decent amount of them are valid. Granted, I don't know which arguments or buzzwords you're referring to, so if you don't mind explaining, perhaps I can offer more of a response?

But again, I refuse to tell anyone what to do with themselves and I will try my best to not treat people differently because of personal choices they made. I guess the best comparison I have are tattoos, because you're basically making a permanent change to your body. I will never get one for a multitude of reasons (one of them being pain, I'm a pansy), but I'm not going to say "You can't do that" and won't treat you like some kind of villain because you made a personal decision that does not impact my life in the least.

Yes and no. We're not altering our body for the sake of altering our body, like someone getting a tattoo, we're doing what we NEED to do in order to feel comfortable in our own skin.

Feel free to skip this if you would like, but I want to share something I wrote when someone who was very much anti-trans, but primarily because of his own ignorance, was sharing a lot of misinformation (this isn't me saying you are ignorant, nor anyone else here, I'm just trying to put the trans perspective out there because I think it's sorely missing from these discussions and maybe, just maybe, it'll explain the why behind it for most of us) :

So I think it's important to say right off the bat that trans is not just putting on clothes and saying we are women or trans men saying they are men.

We were born biologically as male in the case of trans women and none of us denies or hides that. We can't change it, and most of us have obvious physical features because of having to endure male puberty. So, yes, we fully acknowledge what we were born as, and that for most of us we will always stick out like a sore thumb, but that is a price we have to pay to feel just a small fraction like the person we are and should have been.

I'm not delusional, I know I can't magically become a biological woman, it's not possible, but with medication and surgery I can get as close as science allows to feeling at home in my own skin. That is what trans is about for 95% of us. We think, act, feel and relate perfectly with women, because we are female-brained people in male bodies, and same for trans men, male brained people in female bodies. Are there some trans people that take it too far, loose sight of who they are to focus on the fantasy? Of course there are, but those are the outliers, and sadly that is more common to see stories about, because for the vast majority of us we just want to live our lives and be ourselves. We don't want to force people to accept us, we don't want to explode at everyone that misgenders us or uses our old name, we don't even want to make people uncomfortable by using public restrooms.or locker rooms. We just want to live, the same as anyone else, we just happen to be trans and happen to need to live as we truly are.

We live every day of our lives hating ourselves, our brains screaming at us we will never be normal, never fit in, we look ridiculous and everyone is going to laugh at as. Then we get people who yell the same things to draw maximum attention to themselves and us. It's a daily struggle to get out of bed and face the world that, invariably, hates us. We see ourselves in the mirror and have a breakdown. It hurts to see our own skin, hurts to be so far removed from who we are.

We're not looking to pretend to be anything, we just want to feel a little bit more comfortable in our skin and not be treated with hatred and disgust because of it.

 

[Mark]

I think there's a serious discussion to be had regarding male athletes transitioning to being a female and participating in female athletic competitions that definitely needs to be had, but no one is willing to have an adult conversation about it.

Absolutely. We can all agree that women have been tossed to the side in professional sports forever. Sure… there’s the WNBA, but would we have let Jordan sit in a Russian prison for that long? Naaah. They would have put boots on the ground the minute we were notified. My little girl should be able to participate in whatever sport she wants without getting fucking leveled by a trans athlete twice her size, and trans female athletes have a competitive edge over their counterparts… prime example? Lia Thompson or Thomas or whatever. I remember seeing a photo of everyone diving into a pool, and Lia had a HEALTHY reach on the others simply based on height and the ability to propel one’s self forward. The reality is, whether we like it or not, it that biological men and women are different. Years ago, for example, I worked for a repossession agency that was attempting to hire based on diversity. They hired the cliche butch lesbian. She was a cool chick, but repo was not her strength no matter how hard she wanted it to be. It took being overpowered to teach that lesson, thankfully for her… all she learned was a lesson. It could have easily turned out very differently for her had I not been supervising the repossession from across the street as her training agent.

I think there is the whole "just a phase" thing that Mark mentioned for kids (not adults who have a total understanding of who they are).

It absolutely is. My daughter was entertaining the thought that she might be different than her fellow female students, until her step-mother and I sat her down and had a conversation. We didn’t push her in any direction, but we asked her why she felt that way and asked her what made her believe she may be. Long story short, by the end of the conversation she understood that she didn’t have to identify as anything at this point based purely off of the criteria she listed… musical preferences, absence of a fixation on boys as a pre-pubescent girl, interests in outdoor activities, etc. ALL things that are considered accessible to male and females, but predominantly targeted towards males based on societal standards. As we see societal standards pivot, we see more and more children questioning who and what they are rather than just being what they are… children. As @Crystal
mentioned below your post… there ARE some kids that just KNOW. I won’t dispute that one bit, I went to school with a kid that knew he was gay and eventually he ended up killing himself quietly one day… no cries for attention, no big scene, he just couldn’t take it anymore and wandered off and killed himself. As a teen. Younger than my daughter is now. I also knew a girl that knew she was gay at around the same age… she’s still a lesbian, and the same as ever.

I also personally think that the action is (for a lack of a better word) unnecessary/fruitless. I also don't like the way some things are discussed by those who transition, some of the arguments made, and some of the buzzwords used that give me the same feeling of annoyance as words like "drip" and "rizz".

Labels, dude. Labels. They’ll be the downfall of mankind if we’re not careful. Prime example? I can’t say shit about the BLM movement without being called a racist. Why? I’ve got black relatives, black friends, black coworkers. Who the fuck is Becky from Suburbia who might have seen a black dude crossing the street one day on her way to work to tell me what’s really going on in the cities of America? I know more black people than white people, don’t hit me with that racial inequality bullshit until you know what it’s like to be a white kid getting stomped because they don’t want you to “get any Columbine ideas”.

But again, I refuse to tell anyone what to do with themselves and I will try my best to not treat people differently because of personal choices they made. I guess the best comparison I have are tattoos, because you're basically making a permanent change to your body. I will never get one for a multitude of reasons (one of them being pain, I'm a pansy), but I'm not going to say "You can't do that" and won't treat you like some kind of villain because you made a personal decision that does not impact my life in the least.

I dunno about that one, I’m covered in tattoos and have the same 6 facial piercings I’ve had for the last 20-some years, and I could have passed on all of that and lived a normal life. You can’t say the same for some trans people… some stay as they were born and ultimately commit suicide or overdose, you’ll never hear of someone doing that because they didn’t get that tattoo or that piercing.

I can't speak on behalf of all trans people, I can only speak for myself, but of course I'll chime in!

That’s all I want, because as a straight heterosexual white male, “we” can’t have these kinda conversations with trans folks without getting slapped with a label, despite meaning no harm or offense.

Pride is meant to be a showing of unity, togetherness and openness, but it has definitely been perverted into something less and less family friendly in recent times, and while I would still encourage families to attend pride events with their kids when the event is a bit better moderated, I would not want kids at the ones where people are...a bit more open about everything.

Absolutely, I attended a Pride event in NYC by happenstance with my ex. We just happened to be in the area as it was going on, and I couldn’t tell you how many people came up to us and just talked and bullshit with us. This was several years ago, and the tone shift I’ve seen has become far more adult-oriented. Almost as if the boundaries are being pushed.

That one can be situational. We know all too well the stories of kids disowned by their parents for being gay, bi, lesbians, it's true for trans kids, too. Getting help from a counselor or confiding in a teacher because if they tell their parents they'll risk who knows what should not be looked down on. If it reaches a point where the kid is saying things that are concerning, then yes, involve the parents, and if the child has no such fears, then of course, include the parents. Ultimately, the situations where kids are confiding in school officials for help are situations where the school should be building up their confidence to talk to their parents, even if they want the school to mediate that talk. Facing the reality of who you are, and then having to explain that reality to people who have a significant say in your life is a horrifying thing. My dad is a bigot, a nasty one. He's the only member of my family that doesn't know because I don't want to deal with him. I'm an adult, that's fine, but I also repressed so much about myself growing up because I was scared of him becoming abusive towards me. That's true for a lot of kids in those situations.

That’s exactly why I touched on the circumstantial nature of things from the start, there are exceptions where the school should intervene… parental abuse and neglect are the same regardless of a kid’s gender identity. If you, as a teacher, suspect that a child is being abused… you should intervene. However, what I don’t like to hear about, and it could be sensationalized, because everything else is, is that parents that are engaged and involved positively in their children’s lives are having that information withheld from them when there’s no reason present to withhold it.

It breaks my heart to hear about what you’ve went through with your dad, but I can empathize because I also know what it’s like to not meet your parent’s expectations. It’s unfortunately not exclusive to trans kids or gay kids, but most people don’t want to take their own lives and use as examples to empathize with y’all.

This one's more of a speculative point that gets brought up than an actual truth. No matter how much they push, parents cannot simply get their child hormones or gender-affirming surgeries. It is illegal, 100%. Hormones cannot start earlier than 16 years old with parental supervision or 18 as an adult. Gender-affirming surgeries cannot be performed under any circumstances until the child is 18 years old. Isolated cases where it becomes a situation of life or death have happened, but the overwhelming majority of cases are fictionalized or blown so far out of proportion they do not accurately reflect what truly happened. Kids can get hormone blockers at a certain age to delay puberty, and I know that strikes a chord for some, too, but what those people don't take into account is that hormone blockers are reversible and while it's fine to be upset at the chemical delay of puberty, it's important to consider the viewpoint of the child that's struggling. For me, I knew something about me was different from a very early age. I also learned very early in life that the nail which stands out gets hammered, so I shut myself down and withdrew into myself, wondering all about these feelings I felt and repressing as much as I could. It led to teenage depression, suicide attempts, denial, and I was generally not a good person to be around. At 18 I had the first chance to come out, to be me and to live my life, but I let my fear over family matters crush my needs. Enduring male puberty when you have the brain of a female is a never-ending nightmare. Your body taking on this broad frame, deep voice, while your compatriots are heading in the totally opposite direction. You feel a complete disconnect from yourself, from reality, and you feel a disconnect from male and female, because you know who you should be, but you're not experiencing what they're experiencing, and you don't want to be experiencing what you are experiencing. If I'd had the chance to take hormone blockers and delay puberty, I'd have done that in a heartbeat. To not have to endure the anguish, the torment of going down the wrong path would have been life changing. So I'm not opposed to those who, with the guidance of a counselor to be absolutely certain they understand what everything entails that they are sure this is what they need (not want, if it's a want that's an instant red flag), then they should have the right to hormone blockers. Not hormones, hormone blockers.

That may be the case in some instances, but I don’t know if that’s true across the board as we’re seeing more and more facilities accommodate pediatric gender affirming treatments. Does that equate to hormones and surgery? Not necessarily, but even encouraging a child to present as trans before they know for sure could be JUST as damaging as being forced to present as a heterosexual male as you were growing up.

Not nearly as many as certain media outlets would have you believe. While it is being sensationalized nationally, and indeed globally, the trans community is still extremely small, and the vast majority of transitioners are happy with their lives post-transition, with dysphoria completely regressing in many cases. Are there some who experience regret and some who detransition? Of course there are, there always will be, but they're more the exceptions that prove the rule. Again, this is an area where therapy is needed before any action is taken.

The problem I have with this point is that we’re using historical data, because we simply do not have access to data of what these children nowadays are going to be doing when they’re adults. The trans community has exploded in recent years, and we won’t really see the implications of de-transitioning until 10-15 years from now when those teenagers and young adults are further in life.

I knew who I was very early, for some of us it's irrefutable, that knowledge is there from early childhood onward and it doesn't go away no matter how hard we try. I'm not saying that's true for everyone, but look at yourself -- did you ever think you were a girl or did you always know you were a boy? It's the same thing, albeit at a very high level

I understand and respect that point, our genetic wiring is wild, dude. I knew at a very early age that I was interested in women, there was never any confusion for me… and I’m definitely open enough to understand that others different than me could experience the same feelings towards the gender they’re attracted to.

I don't know what the answer is there, my suggestion was an open category. I know a lot of people want there to be a trans category, but that's not inclusion so much as just making damn sure trans athletes know they're being turned into a sideshow. At least an open category puts everyone on level footing.

Without sounding offensive, then what’s the point of the Special Olympics? I have a cousin who is a SO athlete, and let’s put him in a foot race with me and see how he does. It’s not fair at all, because his body isn’t the same as mine. The Special Olympics is a phenomenal program that does wonders for the people that participate, and if you speak to any of them… they don’t feel like a sideshow. They know that they’re competing with people that are physically on their level. There’s no difference. People would look at me as a piece of shit if I signed up for the SO and mopped the floor with the other competitors… no different than if people looked at you like you’re a piece of shit for mopping the floor with the other ladies in a 500 yard dash just because you happen to have longer legs and more stamina.

I'm sure that's a thing for some, absolutely, and that's where therapy comes into play.

I think everyone needs therapy. Everyone.

Such as? There are only specific terms that apply, and on the argument side a decent amount of them are valid. Granted, I don't know which arguments or buzzwords you're referring to, so if you don't mind explaining, perhaps I can offer more of a response?

I’m gonna go out on a limb and say phrases like “cisgender” and “ultra-heterosexual” or “super straight” for starters. Those phrases bother the fuck outta me no different than being called certain names would bother you. It isn’t because I’m offended by the actual names themselves… but for the same reason you would get offended... Who the hell are they to slap a label on you and tell you what you are? Straight men these days see a lot of those words, mostly from liberal, straight, white women… who have no dog in that race since “we” can’t tell them anything about their bodies (but that’s a whole different discussion). Labels are damaging as fuck. If not in tangible damage, in societal damage.

Yes and no. We're not altering our body for the sake of altering our body, like someone getting a tattoo, we're doing what we NEED to do in order to feel comfortable in our own skin.

That’s the thing I think most anti-trans people have the hardest time grasping, because they have a hard time empathizing and placing themselves in a situation where they were uncomfortable with themselves. For example, I grew up being called a fag because I liked heavy metal and video games and didn’t give two shits about athletics until later on. How does that have anything to do with my sexual preference? It didn’t, but it made me uncomfortable because I *knew* it wasn’t true. No, what I’m describing isn’t nearly the same as what you describe… but I’m able to see what you’re saying, couple it with my experiences, and attempt to scale it to fit your scenario. By the end of that mental math, I know I’m not in your shoes… but I have a better idea of what it was like for you than someone who doesn’t have that comparative skillset.

I do appreciate you engaging in this conversation, though, and for being mature enough to know that I mean absolutely no offense by it.

 

[the_promised_land]

This is probably the most grown up conversation I’ve ever read

 

[Mark]

This is probably the most grown up conversation I’ve ever read

We try, bro, we try. I just wish that it was this easy for everyone to discuss unconventional topics… maybe the world wouldn’t be as fucked as it is if everyone was able to talk like this band of rejects here.

 

[Crystal]

I'll respond properly later when I have more free time, but yeah, I see a lot of your points, @Mark.

Also yes, it's so important to have a discussion on a civil level and share viewpoints rather than trying to score cool points with canned replies and misinformation. More people definitely need to do that.

 

[Fool's Requiem]

If there's one group of people who I will always look down upon no matter what, it's bad drivers. You do this on a daily basis and you still suck. I don't care if you're black, white, male, female, young or old. You will get my distain if you suck at driving.

 

[Mark]

If there's one group of people who I will always look down upon no matter what, it's bad drivers. You do this on a daily basis and you still suck. I don't care if you're black, white, male, female, young or old. You will get my distain if you suck at driving.

I spent enough time as an occupational driver to say that if you try to merge into my lane because yours is clearly ending and there’s a yield sign for you, but you’re certain you can squeeze ahead of one more car… you’re picking weeds out of your grill.

I can also say with 100% certainty that if you have Virginia, New Jersey, or New York on your plate… fuck you.

 

[Raine]

I just, uh, started pushing +Quote from the first post I hadn't read whilst skimming. Let's see if I can hammer through this before bed. I regret everything NOTHING.

Fake edit: Nope, running low on time. Maybe finish (and actually read Crystal's responses!) another time. Womp womp
.

The problem is… it’s gotta start somewhere, so you wind up with an influx of admin posts with members sprinkled in because everyone’s just kinda standing around twiddling their thumbs waiting for something to kick off.

I can appreciate that, yeah. For me personally, I'm not a fan of sitting around like that. If I want (to see) something, I'm either gonna do it if it's easy, seek out help if it's available if it's not, or fucking learn a new skill and fake it 'til I make it over a couple days. I picked up (and have subsequently forgotten! lol) so many weird little tricks and skills just doing that through the years with GW.

Elsewhere too, of course, but there probably isn't a lot of cross-pollination with our userbase and the FFXI/FFXIV/PSO2 communities. I definitely have shit on my drives that no one here probably cares about right now, but that could be useful later as fodder content depending on how things progress. And you won't find that information on the larger web, outside of The Internet Archive, because I spent a couple hours purging my Reddit account before deleting it.

Honestly, controversy was one of the biggest driving factors in late GW activity.

I've always done my best to avoid drumming up unnecessary drama or being controversial for the sake of it, but I feel you. It's difficult for me to engage in a number of topics because all of the wells have been so thoroughly and utterly poisoned, and even had they not been they're "fringe" (I mean I prefer "vanguard," but w/e) at best among would-be allies. Like the school thing - it's not a nuclear hot take because I think our education system is basically useless. Tooons of people agree with that, though we also all generally agree it'll never get fixed for a myriad reasons.

Actual edit: I woke up this morning and regret everything again. I'll forward this for posterity but I really, super, am not comfortable opening this can of worms. Again. Right now.

I won’t speak for @Crystal, but I am certainly not objective to seeing controversial topics discussed that may seem divisive or “non-conducive to fostering a community”, because I’m of the variety that believes the only way we’re going to solve any of our problems is by talking about them and not burying the topic.

Fair, fair. I do want to reiterate that I'm not in the business of trying to change minds, but if there's some ill-advised thread created perhaps I'll wander in for a spell.

I must demand nap time when we're through, though. I'm far too old to be one of these characters off changing the world.

Why wasn’t it repurposed? Why did it get to a point where no one went through and balanced everything back out? ... and at the end of the day, Al still wanted the focus to be on gaming despite the clear message the members were sending with their activity.

I don't wanna dog pile him, but... yeah, it was Al. It was probably always Al. I distinctly remember bringing up why we had so many console-specific boards that overrode one another's purpose, on top of General Game Help, etc., at least once, and the answer was effectively that sponsors (/Al) demanded it.

I will say that I am a HUGE fan of the idea of CMS integration in the event that this forum becomes active enough. It would be nice to have the main page as a sort of directory to what content is active and perhaps OC content like member streams or podcasts or whatever the cool kids do. Point being… having any of that CENTERED around the community and it’s members would be ideal.

Following from the above, that's the most practical route. I used to listen to a couple of laid-back podcasts that were basically just going over a couple news topics, game or otherwise, what games and movies they were working through/excited for, yadda yadda. They're still fairly popular, although over-saturated as it's some of the easiest content to produce.

No bloatware, malware, ads or pop-unders coming to this site anytime soon

Now mind you, I love me some ad-block. But I also wasn't (and am not) shy about pitching in. Premium Accounts are, uhh... I don't think we need those? What would those even offer at this juncture? But if the need arises, yeah.

Naturally, correct me if I’m calling this wrong, but you have a section of people that virtue signal in your favor because they think it’s the cool thing to do

In a classical swerve, I'm actually fine with Virtue Signaling and even Rainbow Capitalism. I know they don't mean a damn word of it - there are basically zero allies around when things get even a little dicey - but it's kind of just nice seeing something besides JK Rowling having diarrhea on Twitter. Again. Constantly.

Edit: ehh, sorry, that wasn't EXACTLY relevant to what was being stated. Hard to state that I'm not interested in virtue signaling without seeming like that's exactly what I'm doing, so I prefer to be more forthright.

Strictly speaking, it's best to not overthink it anyway. "Virtue Signal" started as an alt-right accusation specifically to shut down and stifle pro-[anythingreally] sentiment amongst people that aren't members of the affected group.

I mean people shouldn't really worry about being an ally or anything, either. If folk have room on their plate for more, by all means inquire and support where and when appropriate. I don't think most folk are looking for anything more than friendship.

I think there's a serious discussion to be had regarding male athletes transitioning to being a female and participating in female athletic competitions that definitely needs to be had, but no one is willing to have an adult conversation about it.

That's one of the wells that's been so thoroughly poisoned it can never recover.

(Openly) Trans people in general account for something stupidly small like 0.3% of the population. There should be a roughly even number of trans men and trans women, and the number should be dispersed throughout most of the age ranges. So before we even begin talking about trans athletes, in America, we're talking... 300,000 trans women? Maximum? In the proper category and age ranges. Before factoring in all of the anti-trans legislation that is currently being cycled, which will further drive that number down due to lack of access to healthcare.

So you have 300,000 trans women, minus however many aren't athletic/into sports, divided by all of the sports that even have female divisions...

Like most thing, a mountain was made out of a mole hill. And we haven't even begun discussing what it means to be a trans woman (when did they start transitioning? did they have a male puberty? how long have they been on hormones? how good/bad are their individual starting genetics?), or the fact that any sport or competition worth a damn already has weight classes, hormonal level measurements, etc., in place to try and keep things fair. I mean it's not like all men and all women are equally created either, right? Boxing is such an easy and obvious example.

This isn't aimed at you, Fool, just... It's exhausting. So, so very exhausting. Just fucking ban us from everything and be done with it so that everyone can move on with their lives already. So that I don't have to see that article about the little 9-year old girl getting called out by Bigot Grandpa again and risk putting my head through the monitor.

As a parent, I think children should be given the time to just be kids and not face outside influence from adults that think they have a better understanding of what their child is than their child can even comprehend at that age.

I think there is the whole "just a phase" thing that Mark mentioned for kids (not adults who have a total understanding of who they are).

Adults definitely don't have total understanding of who they are. I'm friends with a 45-year old that just recently started their transition, and that's not particularly uncommon. All of this stuff is actually pretty well regulated too, and there are processes and safeguards already in place. It's medical malpractice to just hand someone Estradiol, et al and send them on their way. If the discussion were to be that every facility that offers gender-affirming care is required to have regular compliance checks for best standards, I would be in complete agreement/favor.

Anything that is true for adults is especially true for minors. Now, will they prescribe puberty blockers? Yeah, they probably will. And they should, because you can't undo what (either) puberty does to the body. When you start talking about body dysphoria, puberty is the right hook. It's devastating. Delaying puberty while doing the necessary mental health checks is good praxis, and causes no appreciable negative effects. You stop the puberty blockers and, uh, nature takes its course. Y'know?

You're not going to take 7-year old Timmy in and flip the willy in a matter of days/hours. Depending on state laws, going that far is going to be super far off. And, of course, a very large portion of trans people never have bottom surgery anyway*. It's expensive, there's a huge recovery time, and frankly most trans people don't have a sufficient enough support networks to cover things like missing work and 24/7 care for multiple weeks.

* This requires its own conversation. What you may or may not see in porn is... I mean we all understand hetero sex in porn is already not a good representative of reality.

Lia Thompson or Thomas or whatever. I remember seeing a photo of everyone diving into a pool, and Lia had a HEALTHY reach on the others simply based on height and the ability to propel one’s self forward. The reality is, whether we like it or not, it that biological men and women are different.

Following from the above, and with the caveat that I don't know my ass from a hole in the ground with most sports, while there are definite differences between male and female anatomy, not all men and not all women are created evenly either.

Again, generally, a male frame will be larger than a female frame. Size differences may be something to consider. But, if your sport(s) isn't already considering height, weight, general mass distribution, etc., etc., there actually isn't anything stopping a larger cis woman from absolutely decimating a smaller cis woman. And if it's not doing that, then I have to pause and start to consider if maybe the push isn't because they care about fair competitions at all.

As someone that spends entirely too much time reading things they shouldn't, my default expectation is never actually that I'm the intended target. I'm a convenient target that softens the position to undermine someone else.

That’s all I want, because as a straight heterosexual white male, “we” can’t have these kinda conversations with trans folks without getting slapped with a label, despite meaning no harm or offense.

It's... complicated? The where and the how and the why and the who.

Like, consider for a moment if the forum is Twitter. Dorsey-Twitter or Musk-Twitter, doesn't matter. Someone says something - can be about anything - and it gets picked up, gains a bit of traction. To someone replying to that someone's something, this is a 1:1 conversation. You're being civil and all that. But, to the someone and their something, it's not 1:1. It's like... 50:1. Or 1000:1. And for every civil response, there are more than one uncivil one.

I nuked Twitter ages ago because "Villain of the Day" and shit is just abhorrent. In spaces like this, or in fully personal conversation, I would expect the tone to be radically different. The fact you and Crystal have known each other for a long time, and the fact that I'm just wired differently, will probably help.

I’m gonna go out on a limb and say phrases like “cisgender” and “ultra-heterosexual” or “super straight” for starters.

Haven't seen the other two, but cisgender is just a medical term. Cis is an actual prefix and the opposite of trans, so in conversation calling us trans women and not prefixing women with cis would either 1) be super confusing because you're interchangeably using "women" as the catch-all and to identify a second group or 2) be redundant because the implication would be that trans women aren't women, and the word men should be used.

Per the conversation over there, English is a stupid language. ...Although I think these are technically loan-words from Latin, so maybe Latin is the stupid language? Whichever!

I can also say with 100% certainty that if you have Virginia, New Jersey, or New York on your plate… fuck you.

Better learn to fear that yellow plate! Lived in Jersey for a couple years, everything about driving there is dumb. Also we're literally too stupid to pump our own gas or something lol.

 

[Crystal]

I dunno about that one, I’m covered in tattoos and have the same 6 facial piercings I’ve had for the last 20-some years, and I could have passed on all of that and lived a normal life. You can’t say the same for some trans people… some stay as they were born and ultimately commit suicide or overdose, you’ll never hear of someone doing that because they didn’t get that tattoo or that piercing.

Very true. Trapped in an existence you can't connect with isn't quite the same as not getting inked or pierced. At a high level, perhaps, but yeah, radically different situations.

That’s all I want, because as a straight heterosexual white male, “we” can’t have these kinda conversations with trans folks without getting slapped with a label, despite meaning no harm or offense.

Well you can around me. I'm just me, I'm no advocate.

Absolutely, I attended a Pride event in NYC by happenstance with my ex. We just happened to be in the area as it was going on, and I couldn’t tell you how many people came up to us and just talked and bullshit with us. This was several years ago, and the tone shift I’ve seen has become far more adult-oriented. Almost as if the boundaries are being pushed.

Yep, it's such a shame that Pride has been so badly perverted.

However, what I don’t like to hear about, and it could be sensationalized, because everything else is, is that parents that are engaged and involved positively in their children’s lives are having that information withheld from them when there’s no reason present to withhold it.

I don't see parents having that sort of information willfully withheld unless there's valid cause for concern, but agreed, it's not realistically something that should be happening under normal circumstances.

That may be the case in some instances, but I don’t know if that’s true across the board as we’re seeing more and more facilities accommodate pediatric gender affirming treatments. Does that equate to hormones and surgery? Not necessarily, but even encouraging a child to present as trans before they know for sure could be JUST as damaging as being forced to present as a heterosexual male as you were growing up.

I think people confuse the term gender-affirming care with hormones and surgery. Yes, those are gender-affirming treatment, but gender-affirming care is so broad-spectrum.

The problem I have with this point is that we’re using historical data, because we simply do not have access to data of what these children nowadays are going to be doing when they’re adults. The trans community has exploded in recent years, and we won’t really see the implications of de-transitioning until 10-15 years from now when those teenagers and young adults are further in life.

Unfortunately it will be that way for a good while because trans people are not and will never be a significant percentage of the population.

I understand and respect that point, our genetic wiring is wild, dude. I knew at a very early age that I was interested in women, there was never any confusion for me… and I’m definitely open enough to understand that others different than me could experience the same feelings towards the gender they’re attracted to.

Yep.

I think everyone needs therapy. Everyone.

Agreed, completely.

That’s the thing I think most anti-trans people have the hardest time grasping, because they have a hard time empathizing and placing themselves in a situation where they were uncomfortable with themselves. For example, I grew up being called a fag because I liked heavy metal and video games and didn’t give two shits about athletics until later on. How does that have anything to do with my sexual preference? It didn’t, but it made me uncomfortable because I *knew* it wasn’t true. No, what I’m describing isn’t nearly the same as what you describe… but I’m able to see what you’re saying, couple it with my experiences, and attempt to scale it to fit your scenario. By the end of that mental math, I know I’m not in your shoes… but I have a better idea of what it was like for you than someone who doesn’t have that comparative skillset.

I do appreciate you engaging in this conversation, though, and for being mature enough to know that I mean absolutely no offense by it.

Yeah, it is hard to transfer the knowledge of what it is to be something to someone who isn't that thing.

I mean people shouldn't really worry about being an ally or anything, either. If folk have room on their plate for more, by all means inquire and support where and when appropriate. I don't think most folk are looking for anything more than friendship.

THIS!!! THIS SO MUCH!

This isn't aimed at you, Fool, just... It's exhausting. So, so very exhausting. Just fucking ban us from everything and be done with it so that everyone can move on with their lives already. So that I don't have to see that article about the little 9-year old girl getting called out by Bigot Grandpa again and risk putting my head through the monitor.

Yes, please!

Anything that is true for adults is especially true for minors. Now, will they prescribe puberty blockers? Yeah, they probably will. And they should, because you can't undo what (either) puberty does to the body. When you start talking about body dysphoria, puberty is the right hook. It's devastating. Delaying puberty while doing the necessary mental health checks is good praxis, and causes no appreciable negative effects. You stop the puberty blockers and, uh, nature takes its course. Y'know?

Thank you! Agreed 100%!

 

[Mark]

I just, uh, started pushing +Quote from the first post I hadn't read whilst skimming. Let's see if I can hammer through this before bed. I regret everything NOTHING.

Alright, my turn to see how fast I can burn the battery down on my phone.

I can appreciate that, yeah. For me personally, I'm not a fan of sitting around like that. If I want (to see) something, I'm either gonna do it if it's easy, seek out help if it's available if it's not, or fucking learn a new skill and fake it 'til I make it over a couple days. I picked up (and have subsequently forgotten! lol) so many weird little tricks and skills just doing that through the years with GW.

Exactly, and as you see… @Crystal and I are already finding ourselves replying more than initiating conversations. All it takes is a little push.

Elsewhere too, of course, but there probably isn't a lot of cross-pollination with our userbase and the FFXI/FFXIV/PSO2 communities. I definitely have shit on my drives that no one here probably cares about right now, but that could be useful later as fodder content depending on how things progress. And you won't find that information on the larger web, outside of The Internet Archive, because I spent a couple hours purging my Reddit account before deleting it.

There is absolutely zero cross-pollination coming from me at this point, as I’ve been solely reliant on Facebook and Messenger to communicate with old members.

I've always done my best to avoid drumming up unnecessary drama or being controversial for the sake of it, but I feel you. It's difficult for me to engage in a number of topics because all of the wells have been so thoroughly and utterly poisoned, and even had they not been they're "fringe" (I mean I prefer "vanguard," but w/e) at best among would-be allies. Like the school thing - it's not a nuclear hot take because I think our education system is basically useless. Tooons of people agree with that, though we also all generally agree it'll never get fixed for a myriad reasons.

Actual edit: I woke up this morning and regret everything again. I'll forward this for posterity but I really, super, am not comfortable opening this can of worms. Again. Right now.

I get that, perfectly understandable.

Fair, fair. I do want to reiterate that I'm not in the business of trying to change minds, but if there's some ill-advised thread created perhaps I'll wander in for a spell.

Changing minds is a waste of time. Educating others is not, and even the most ignorant of people can be educated as long as they want to be.

I must demand nap time when we're through, though. I'm far too old to be one of these characters off changing the world.

The best you can do is the best that we all can… lead by example.

I don't wanna dog pile him, but... yeah, it was Al. It was probably always Al. I distinctly remember bringing up why we had so many console-specific boards that overrode one another's purpose, on top of General Game Help, etc., at least once, and the answer was effectively that sponsors (/Al) demanded it.

I have nothing but respect and admiration for what Al was able to accomplish with GW over the years, but I can’t help but wonder how much more could have been done had he been more willing to be receptive to the ideas of others. He was extremely stubborn is the most dismissive of ways… and I get it… he didn’t have time to read through a novel about why some jackass thought this or that was a good idea… but when those jackasses are spending their time to help YOUR community, you should listen. It was often joked about that I recruited too many admins or too many staff members too early in all my forum ventures… but there was a reason for that. It wasn’t just because they were my friends… it was because I wanted as many hands that I could trust to offer whatever contributions they thought would build a solid community. I know I don’t know it all, and I know a LOT of people have a better idea of what makes a successful community than me.

Following from the above, that's the most practical route. I used to listen to a couple of laid-back podcasts that were basically just going over a couple news topics, game or otherwise, what games and movies they were working through/excited for, yadda yadda. They're still fairly popular, although over-saturated as it's some of the easiest content to produce.

I’ve never been a fan of any of that stuff, but I’ve been presented with the idea of being “interviewed” before on a morning radio show to discuss work in the past. It wasn’t until I started going over the topics that I realized there was no way in hell I’d be able to pull it off without compromising security.

Now mind you, I love me some ad-block. But I also wasn't (and am not) shy about pitching in. Premium Accounts are, uhh... I don't think we need those? What would those even offer at this juncture? But if the need arises, yeah.

Premium memberships are a tricky thing… because you could purchase one right now and get your money’s worth over the course of 6 months of regular use of whatever theoretical additional benefits you receive… you could purchase one right now and get banned tomorrow and throw a fit because you wasted your money… or you could buy one right now and for some personal reason @Crystal decides that she can no longer keep the forums online. I speak from experience when I say that I would tread very cautiously on that concept, because no one wants the reputation that they’re taking the money and running. Even to the point of this community… over a decade later… I find myself feeling as if I owed an explanation for abandoning ship on a forum that I accepted money/donations towards upkeep on. It’s not a great feeling… even if it’s only $10-$20 from a decade ago. I feel like I let a lot of people down when I bailed on the last forum, but my personal life was falling apart… the mother of my daughter had been lying about being at work so she could cheat on me with a coworker, I was drinking myself into a depression, working myself to death to feel “worthy”, and just an overall mess. The last thing I wanted to deal with was drama over forums… they used to be an escape from the chaos of reality, you know? It stops being enjoyable, even if you know you’re bringing a community together and it’s bigger than just you.

In a classical swerve, I'm actually fine with Virtue Signaling and even Rainbow Capitalism. I know they don't mean a damn word of it - there are basically zero allies around when things get even a little dicey - but it's kind of just nice seeing something besides JK Rowling having diarrhea on Twitter. Again. Constantly.

I can understand that, even if I’m surprised to read it. From the outside, it just seems exploitive. I absolutely despise seeing friends of mine post obligatory June photos with their friends from that community for clout. It’s just as pathetic as the people that suddenly posted photos with all their black friends after the whole George Floyd thing went down and suddenly you weren’t cool unless you did similar. It seems disingenuous. In your position, I’d sooner value someone allying themselves to you in the manner that I see myself doing in these conversations than that… because although we’re wildly different, speak from different viewpoints, and live different lives… there’s mutual respect. There’s nothing respectful about the exploitive types, and your depiction of them shows exactly what I mean… y’all see right through the bullshit they pull no different than the people that talk shit about “woke liberals” (which interestingly enough just autocorrected to “some liberals” on my iPhone. HMM.)

Strictly speaking, it's best to not overthink it anyway. "Virtue Signal" started as an alt-right accusation specifically to shut down and stifle pro-[anythingreally] sentiment amongst people that aren't members of the affected group.

I would sooner say that it started the moment disingenuous people started throwing their empty support your way, they were kinda asking for it… and the right LOVE an easy target.

I mean people shouldn't really worry about being an ally or anything, either. If folk have room on their plate for more, by all means inquire and support where and when appropriate. I don't think most folk are looking for anything more than friendship.

I get that. None of us truly have that in life, because we all face our toughest battles on our own. However… I’ve never turned down being friends with someone for any reason other than how they directly treat others or myself.

(Openly) Trans people in general account for something stupidly small like 0.3% of the population. There should be a roughly even number of trans men and trans women, and the number should be dispersed throughout most of the age ranges. So before we even begin talking about trans athletes, in America, we're talking... 300,000 trans women? Maximum? In the proper category and age ranges. Before factoring in all of the anti-trans legislation that is currently being cycled, which will further drive that number down due to lack of access to healthcare.

I look at the lack of healthcare differently than sports, I don’t think anyone should be denied adequate healthcare. As expensive as insurance is… there’s no reason we should, as a country, have the healthcare system that we do. It is so exclusive to EVERYONE. Sure, there are trans people that are dying regularly due to limited care or access… but that’s not at all surprising when if you, as a theoretical allergic person, could drop dead because someone opened a package of peanuts near you and you couldn’t afford to have an EpiPen in your pocket at all times. It’s fucking tragic, dude… and unacceptable on every level. Before we can dive into the care trans people receive, being the minority they are… there are much bigger questions to ask about the healthcare industry.

Like most thing, a mountain was made out of a mole hill. And we haven't even begun discussing what it means to be a trans woman (when did they start transitioning? did they have a male puberty? how long have they been on hormones? how good/bad are their individual starting genetics?), or the fact that any sport or competition worth a damn already has weight classes, hormonal level measurements, etc., in place to try and keep things fair. I mean it's not like all men and all women are equally created either, right? Boxing is such an easy and obvious example.

All valid points, but puberty in itself is just a developmental stage of life… not a determining point of sex.

This isn't aimed at you, Fool, just... It's exhausting. So, so very exhausting. Just fucking ban us from everything and be done with it so that everyone can move on with their lives already. So that I don't have to see that article about the little 9-year old girl getting called out by Bigot Grandpa again and risk putting my head through the monitor.

I don’t believe they should be outright banned, I am all for co-ed sports of all kinds, but you’re not gonna put Micheal Jordan in the ring with Mike Tyson despite them both being biological males. Why? Weight and height differences. Reach differences. Skill differences. The same rules should apply across the board… there’s no reason why a 6ft 2in chick, trans or not, should be competing against a group of 5ft 2in chicks in a competition where your heigh, range, reach, etc. is a determining factor in whether or not you have a higher likelihood of winning. It’s why anabolic steroids and shit are banned… it gives an unfair competitive advantage to the person using them.

Adults definitely don't have total understanding of who they are. I'm friends with a 45-year old that just recently started their transition, and that's not particularly uncommon. All of this stuff is actually pretty well regulated too, and there are processes and safeguards already in place. It's medical malpractice to just hand someone Estradiol, et al and send them on their way. If the discussion were to be that every facility that offers gender-affirming care is required to have regular compliance checks for best standards, I would be in complete agreement/favor.

Again, this circles back to the piss-poor healthcare system we have here. Regulatory authorities always result in circumvention of regulations… whether it’s a pill mill prescribing opiates, or a cash-only pain management clinic, or a medical facility prescribing unmonitored hormones to minors. “We” are aware of the failures in other quadrants of the healthcare system… so instinctually… “we” suspect similar elsewhere. Look at how opiates are still abused… and they’re literally counted by the pill by the feds. There are none of those measures for hormone treatments to the best of my knowledge, no federal agency (not that we could trust that anyway) counting the pills and prescriptions going out.

Anything that is true for adults is especially true for minors. Now, will they prescribe puberty blockers? Yeah, they probably will. And they should, because you can't undo what (either) puberty does to the body. When you start talking about body dysphoria, puberty is the right hook. It's devastating. Delaying puberty while doing the necessary mental health checks is good praxis, and causes no appreciable negative effects. You stop the puberty blockers and, uh, nature takes its course. Y'know?

My only question about this is if this is standardized across the board? The rubber stamp process is very real, there’s no denying that it’s everywhere in that stupid ass for-profit medical system.

You're not going to take 7-year old Timmy in and flip the willy in a matter of days/hours. Depending on state laws, going that far is going to be super far off. And, of course, a very large portion of trans people never have bottom surgery anyway*. It's expensive, there's a huge recovery time, and frankly most trans people don't have a sufficient enough support networks to cover things like missing work and 24/7 care for multiple weeks.

* This requires its own conversation. What you may or may not see in porn is... I mean we all understand hetero sex in porn is already not a good representative of reality.

Yeah, I’d imagine that part is quite difficult and drawn out… which I’m sure you agree is a good thing, because of how serious of a procedure it is. I’m not familiar with trans porn in any capacity beyond the classic “keep scrolling down” images sent for shock value to transphobic people/straight males/frat boys. You know the ones… well made up feminine face… boobs… naval… wiener… haha… you’re gay… the end.

Following from the above, and with the caveat that I don't know my ass from a hole in the ground with most sports, while there are definite differences between male and female anatomy, not all men and not all women are created evenly either.

Again, generally, a male frame will be larger than a female frame. Size differences may be something to consider. But, if your sport(s) isn't already considering height, weight, general mass distribution, etc., etc., there actually isn't anything stopping a larger cis woman from absolutely decimating a smaller cis woman. And if it's not doing that, then I have to pause and start to consider if maybe the push isn't because they care about fair competitions at all.

I definitely covered a lot of this a few quotes above. Damnit… I should have kept reading.

As someone that spends entirely too much time reading things they shouldn't, my default expectation is never actually that I'm the intended target. I'm a convenient target that softens the position to undermine someone else.

I can assure you that, at best, you will be no more or less of a target to me than anyone else here. Everyone gets picked on, including and especially me, in my world. I give shit to give shit, it’s what I do. It’ll never be about who YOU are as a person though, unless you’re a piece of shit to people. Who do I consider a piece of shit? Abusers of any kind. Child molesters. Rapists. Politicians.

It's... complicated? The where and the how and the why and the who.

Isn’t everything?

Like, consider for a moment if the forum is Twitter. Dorsey-Twitter or Musk-Twitter, doesn't matter. Someone says something - can be about anything - and it gets picked up, gains a bit of traction. To someone replying to that someone's something, this is a 1:1 conversation. You're being civil and all that. But, to the someone and their something, it's not 1:1. It's like... 50:1. Or 1000:1. And for every civil response, there are more than one uncivil one.

I understand that, and part of my ability to talk with people in different lives than my own is my training over the years. You have to be good at communicating, sometimes it’s all you have to save yourself from a bullet to the head. Literally. You’re not holding a gun to my head, but my approach will always be the same. You get more with empathy than you do by barking or using brute force.

I nuked Twitter ages ago because "Villain of the Day" and shit is just abhorrent. In spaces like this, or in fully personal conversation, I would expect the tone to be radically different. The fact you and Crystal have known each other for a long time, and the fact that I'm just wired differently, will probably help.

We’re just adults… that’s what it boils down to. There’s no logical or “permanent” reason anyone else shouldn’t be capable of carrying on these exact kind of conversations. The fact of the matter is… a lot of people aren’t logical, and aren’t open to the possibility of changing their minds or the ways the conduct themselves.

Haven't seen the other two, but cisgender is just a medical term. Cis is an actual prefix and the opposite of trans, so in conversation calling us trans women and not prefixing women with cis would either 1) be super confusing because you're interchangeably using "women" as the catch-all and to identify a second group or 2) be redundant because the implication would be that trans women aren't women, and the word men should be used.

The other two are basically what I am considered, and I know this because of online discussions that went south with… you guessed it… white liberal heterosexual women. I’m a heterosexual male with no interest in having sex with trans women, no physical attraction to trans women, and would take offense to a theoretical date presenting as a biological heterosexual female and neglecting to tell me that they were trans. Apparently it makes me a bigot to have a preference and detest being lied to?

Per the conversation over there, English is a stupid language. ...Although I think these are technically loan-words from Latin, so maybe Latin is the stupid language? Whichever!

Three languages in a trench coat dressed as one… best phrasing for it ever.

Better learn to fear that yellow plate! Lived in Jersey for a couple years, everything about driving there is dumb. Also we're literally too stupid to pump our own gas or something lol.

Duuude… After all that typing, how’s this for a closer?

FUCK NJ.

 

[Nebulous]

Looks like a cool place so far, I hope it doesn't fizzle out. Keep up the good work!

 

[Raine]

I probably lied about the chain comment thing earlier, but I will do my best to wrangle this beast or fucking die trying.


So first - I like(d) Al. He was always responsive and helpful to me, but in complete fairness I didn't have all that many reasons to directly interact with him over the years. It definitely wasn't as bad for your run of the mill user or moderator as it was for all the Supers and Admins, I'm sure. Still, there was definite frustration at feeling like things could have - should have - been so easy to resolve at various points, and there were dozens of threads with thousands of posts intricately and passionately detailing what people would like to do, but... for all the talk, there was seldom movement. It was a goddamn miracle when Crystal managed to get the news contributor group together with his blessing, even if it was far too little and far too late by that point.

As for the size of the staff, at least throughout the 2000s, I think that was necessary. The sheer number of individual forums necessitated it. As traffic died off, obviously, we didn't need to keep having so many - but I don't know that that was a particular negative either. My personal policy was that if I wasn't needed, or otherwise felt that I couldn't contribute, that I would resign. Which I did twice, and I know many others did as well. I don't really have any complaints about that throughout any of the admin sets that I can remember off-hand.

If anything, I've always admired how put together the staff seemed to be. Even after getting my grubby little mitts on some power and seeing how the sausage was made.

I feel like I let a lot of people down when I bailed on the last forum, but my personal life was falling apart… the mother of my daughter had been lying about being at work so she could cheat on me with a coworker, I was drinking myself into a depression, working myself to death to feel “worthy”, and just an overall mess. The last thing I wanted to deal with was drama over forums… they used to be an escape from the chaos of reality, you know? It stops being enjoyable, even if you know you’re bringing a community together and it’s bigger than just you.

I completely understand, regretfully. Loosely related to the opener, I was a complete disaster of a person basically all throughout my time with GW. I... think I managed to handle it well? I don't remember anyone getting upset with me, at least, even if I deserved it the times I tried acting like something other than an information-spewing robot. I hope not anyway.
Actually while writing I remembered having some nasty run-ins with both Woozie and Beha. Deep sigh.

Staffing is an interesting concept and at least part of the reason we're here right now too, with regards to Reddit. But like, yeah - it's very, very easy for something like this to either become an addiction or a burden. And it's not a great feeling if people are paying for or otherwise expecting a service.

The Premium Member thing was mostly just in relation to the OG forum (I think that was a Ben invention, maybe? I just bought one or two to try experimenting since there wasn't a Wiki-post function available for vBulletin) and the VIP recommendation thread. Specifically to the point, though, my sentiment is that if things scale up or need shorn up or something I'm open to contributing (in lieu of turning off my ad-blocker ).

I can understand that, even if I’m surprised to read it. From the outside, it just seems exploitive. I absolutely despise seeing friends of mine post obligatory June photos with their friends from that community for clout. ... It seems disingenuous. In your position, I’d sooner value someone allying themselves to you in the manner that I see myself doing in these conversations than that…

Oh fuck dude, it's completely exploitative. Corporations just want money; the entire time they're doing the Rainbow avatars and shilling Rainbow merchandise they're funneling money directly into the hands of the people trying to erase our very existence. They've had their accountants and data analysts run the numbers and they think their promotional items will more than offset whatever minority of people get mad and boycott for a month.

However, I know a good opportunity when I see one. These corporations, and these fake allies, may not believe a single solitary word of what they're saying... but they're saying it far and wide for upwards of an entire month. They don't believe, but people seeing the posts? They might. It's better than the alternative, complete and utter radio silence - because again there are fewer than 2 million of us collectively inside the US and probably drastically fewer in other countries, especially the UK and Canada where wait times for consultations are measured in years, not weeks - while the opposition goes on and on about how we are literally feasting on the entrails of adorable kittens.

The number of "true believers" in the Republican Party and the Gender Critical movement (TERF is not a goddamn slur, Joanne*, you people fucking coined it yourselves!) is actually pretty small too, though. Those people see an easy target in trans people to further their own agendas and to monetarily enrich themselves. I'm not going to say "they don't actually hate us," because that's patently false, but they don't care as much as you might think they do at first blush.

I look at the lack of healthcare differently than sports, I don’t think anyone should be denied adequate healthcare. As expensive as insurance is… there’s no reason we should, as a country, have the healthcare system that we do. It is so exclusive to EVERYONE. Sure, there are trans people that are dying regularly due to limited care or access… but that’s not at all surprising when if you, as a theoretical allergic person, could drop dead because someone opened a package of peanuts near you and you couldn’t afford to have an EpiPen in your pocket at all times. It’s fucking tragic, dude… and unacceptable on every level. Before we can dive into the care trans people receive, being the minority they are… there are much bigger questions to ask about the healthcare industry.

Oh no, absolutely. I... am a Socialist? Like that's not very surprising at this point, right? I know that's a really bad word right now, and both Socialism and Communism (which, for point of reference, are actually very alarmingly different) have drawbacks, but I mean that in the truest sense. Community, togetherness, helping one another, forming a collective whole composed of smaller interconnected networks. Sharing.

For-profit everything is as a cancer. People will regale me with the theoretical virtues of capitalism, and for many I will not argue the specific points, but the praxis is so, so very far removed from that theory. Or, at absolute bare minimum, it is as it exists today. "Apocalyptic hellscape" seems too tame an accusation to throw at a system and society that gleefully operates for-profit Healthcare that intentionally lets people they could easily save, die. Towards a system that allows and encourages for-profit prisons to use living human beings as... as... disposable batteries, essentially? Which can then also lobby congress and influence the police to pump more fuel PEOPLE into it. Shattering families, destroying hopes, killing dreams.

...Wait lemme stop myself and re-read what the point was. You can't trust me with these topics. You can't. I will never stop once I start. Right, right. I gotcha. Yes, absolutely, there are countless things that are broken in this country. And other countries, I'm not going to play favorites here - most of them suck hardcore for at minimum half of their population on most subjects at all times.

For trans people, it's kind of a double-whammy. Like at the very core of our existence is a simple truth: We were born in the wrong body. If you're spiritual, our soul inhabits the wrong vessel. If you're scientific, a series of radical genetic mutations has delivered the wrong set of instructions and resulted our bodies growing in incorrect ways. You can go about describing it in a number of ways, but invariably it's a physical condition that has long-term repercussions on our mental faculties. I cannot quite describe to you the mindfuckery that is looking in the mirror and seeing the wrong person looking back at you. If you're anorexic or something, that might be similar from an outsider's perspective? Though I'm not completely confident in making that comparison. Regardless, we are routinely denied or dismissed on both fronts.

And for good measure far too many people want to hate us, to fear us. At best legislate us out of existence (which probably results in a lot of suicides) or... at worst, classifying us as something just far enough removed from human to justify doing it themselves. Crystal go away don't read this. You're not allowed to read this, Crystal. I don't think this ends well for us. I really, really don't. Got myself fucking crying here lol. But there's at least visible movement for people that need insulin. There's hope out there for people that need the EpiPen, for those with addiction problems with like... magical miracle stuff Naloxone and shit. With some progressive organizations arranging for safe injection sites for people with addictions, to get their high in safe and controlled spaces. Trans people got Joe fucking Biden up here making concessions on sports while red states ban our actual entire existence under false pretenses, with an eye on going federal with that shit, while we're routinely referred to as inanimate fucking objects in broad daylight, while even Rainbow Capitalism receives a tiny pushback and goes "You know what? Yeah, we're all about inclusiveness and don't want to cause friction, fuck those transes" ... even while rant-writing I don't wanna use that word. DEEP. FUCKING. SIGH. Liberal(legislator)s aren't my friends, so I don't feel like I have anyone with power watching out for me and mine.

...I don't remember what my point was. I'm sorry. Circling back to the above, it's nice seeing something positive for or about us. Even if it's fake. Even if I know it's fake.

I don’t believe they should be outright banned, I am all for co-ed sports of all kinds, but you’re not gonna put Micheal Jordan in the ring with Mike Tyson despite them both being biological males. Why? Weight and height differences. Reach differences. Skill differences. The same rules should apply across the board… there’s no reason why a 6ft 2in chick, trans or not, should be competing against a group of 5ft 2in chicks in a competition where your heigh, range, reach, etc. is a determining factor in whether or not you have a higher likelihood of winning. It’s why anabolic steroids and shit are banned… it gives an unfair competitive advantage to the person using them.

Precisely! I'm actually not generally in favor of division by sex as a matter of principle, trans or otherwise, because - and it really does vary sport to sport - there isn't a lot of rational reasoning involved for why many have continued to exclude women. Like why the fuck would you have a women's division for chess that's separate from the men's division? I saw something ridiculous about that quite recently but don't remember the exact details. But like we're digging well beyond the bottom of the barrel here in those scenarios especially.

Regardless, I'll tell you why: They still think women are inferior. And that's why they're targeting trans women, anyway, while 100% without fail ignoring our trans brothers. Damn near every bill they're passing, every "common sense proposal" they wanna push, is aimed specifically at trans women. And yeah, it'll affect us. Hurt us. Kill us. Erase us. But there aren't that many of us, Joanne*. You think those laws are going away after we're gone from the state/country/etc? 'Cause they fuckin' ain't. They're going to hurt cis women harder and for a far longer period of time than they'll hurt trans women.

I mean it's plain as day. The bathroom stuff is the same - the narrative isn't for unisex bathrooms, which I think are still probably more common than gendered bathrooms anyway? It's functionally "You must wear a skirt or a dress and conform to pig-headed feminine standards to use the women's bathroom, otherwise we're going to molest you to make sure you aren't packing." And no, conventionally attractive girls (cis or trans) aren't going to get a pass. "Oh no, sweetheart, you're far too pretty to be a real girl. I gotta check and make sure." And they'll probably get away with it on some plausible deniability technicality. Fucking hell. They gonna... like, fully complete the projection cycle and start checking kids too?

So yeah, no, I'm honestly serious. Before it gets too bad we do need to just ban all trans athletes from competing. It's likely going to happen anyway, just pull the trigger. Need to shut this shit down and make them be completely honest and transparent about what they're doing and why they're doing it. We already give up so much when we transition, and so much of that is infinitely more important than whether or not we can compete in sports.

I feel like I need to apologize again. This is not going where it should be. This isn't helpful or productive. I should stop and sleep it off. Buuut I'm gonna keep going...

Again, this circles back to the piss-poor healthcare system we have here. Regulatory authorities always result in circumvention of regulations… whether it’s a pill mill prescribing opiates, or a cash-only pain management clinic, or a medical facility prescribing unmonitored hormones to minors. “We” are aware of the failures in other quadrants of the healthcare system… so instinctually… “we” suspect similar elsewhere. Look at how opiates are still abused… and they’re literally counted by the pill by the feds. There are none of those measures for hormone treatments to the best of my knowledge, no federal agency (not that we could trust that anyway) counting the pills and prescriptions going out.

No, you're probably right. I'm not a doctor, but I can't think any of the medications I'm on are Schedule II which I would assume is the question/concern? Because you don't necessarily develop a dependency to them, even if side-effects may present when going cold turkey?

But while I want to stress that I sort of understand on a basic level, this is a deeply troubling consideration. Like... nothing good would come from feeding anyone, much less children, random doses of hormones and blockers. You're probably more likely to make them sick than, I don't know, trans-ing them? Like the transition isn't instantaneous or anything. It takes time. A lot of time. And you have to hit certain milestones before more permanent things, like breast development and sterilization, start to occur and become permanent.

My mind is wheeling right now. Like I can't just say "No, that's silly. You're silly, nothing like this could ever happen~" and give you a pat and we'd move on. Because, teeechnically... it's possible? I mean the person in question would have to be so incredibly fucked in the head to do this to another person, or so very unhealthily desperate to do it to themselves. But Munchausen-by-proxy exists...

Yeah, I’d imagine that part is quite difficult and drawn out… which I’m sure you agree is a good thing, because of how serious of a procedure it is. I’m not familiar with trans porn in any capacity beyond the classic “keep scrolling down” images sent for shock value to transphobic people/straight males/frat boys. You know the ones… well made up feminine face… boobs… naval… wiener… haha… you’re gay… the end.

It's that last part, the wiener lol. Actual mileage may vary, but the penis withers/atrophies. A lot of trans women have erectile dysfunction and are either unable to become stiff at all, or otherwise just unable to establish enough of an erection to actually penetrate without the use of something like Viagra. And maybe even with the use of it. And they probably aren't sporting foot-long meat sticks even before shrinkage... It's a patently absurd idea in my estimation that a trans woman is going to enter a women's bathroom and successfully vaginally or anally rape a cis woman. Which is the prevailing moral panic.

More to the point of trans women not "finishing" the transition, though, it's a function of dysphoria. If the dysphoria is treated by having the female silhouette, if the penis itself isn't a direct and constant interference to their mental well-being, then they may not deem it urgent enough to go through with it even if no other impossible-to-overcome obstacles are present.

...Or with regards to the for-profit Healthcare system specifically, no crippling dysphoria = no more medically-necessary coverage = hello aforementioned ridiculously expensive surgery. If your insurance would've covered it otherwise anyway.

The other two are basically what I am considered, and I know this because of online discussions that went south with… you guessed it… white liberal heterosexual women. I’m a heterosexual male with no interest in having sex with trans women, no physical attraction to trans women, and would take offense to a theoretical date presenting as a biological heterosexual female and neglecting to tell me that they were trans. Apparently it makes me a bigot to have a preference and detest being lied to?

Trans women looking to get into relationships, especially pre-op, usually do - and recommend others do as well - be upfront about their nature prior to getting more intimate with men. I mean, at absolute bare minimum, for their own safety. Trans women getting into bed with a man, the pants coming off, an unexpected penis appearing... the likelihood of the room being occupied by a dead trans woman is far too high. Don't do it.

And I mean, I'm uh... not going to tell a married man to go look at trans women. Just, uh. Hmm.

...

There are a lot of very pretty trans women out there? I am not remotely one of them. I cannot fathom a hetero man not at least giving some of them a whirl. I would prefer to remain blissfully unaware of how many absolutely wouldn't and what that would say about my prospects. Aside from the fact that I like women, which also makes me too biased for an honest evaluation lol



* Joanne = JK Rowling. I'm not obsessed with seeing her get her comeuppance or anything.

 

[Crystal]

I probably lied about the chain comment thing earlier, but I will do my best to wrangle this beast or fucking die trying.


So first - I like(d) Al. He was always responsive and helpful to me, but in complete fairness I didn't have all that many reasons to directly interact with him over the years. It definitely wasn't as bad for your run of the mill user or moderator as it was for all the Supers and Admins, I'm sure. Still, there was definite frustration at feeling like things could have - should have - been so easy to resolve at various points, and there were dozens of threads with thousands of posts intricately and passionately detailing what people would like to do, but... for all the talk, there was seldom movement. It was a goddamn miracle when Crystal managed to get the news contributor group together with his blessing, even if it was far too little and far too late by that point.

As for the size of the staff, at least throughout the 2000s, I think that was necessary. The sheer number of individual forums necessitated it. As traffic died off, obviously, we didn't need to keep having so many - but I don't know that that was a particular negative either. My personal policy was that if I wasn't needed, or otherwise felt that I couldn't contribute, that I would resign. Which I did twice, and I know many others did as well. I don't really have any complaints about that throughout any of the admin sets that I can remember off-hand.

If anything, I've always admired how put together the staff seemed to be. Even after getting my grubby little mitts on some power and seeing how the sausage was made.


I completely understand, regretfully. Loosely related to the opener, I was a complete disaster of a person basically all throughout my time with GW. I... think I managed to handle it well? I don't remember anyone getting upset with me, at least, even if I deserved it the times I tried acting like something other than an information-spewing robot. I hope not anyway.
Actually while writing I remembered having some nasty run-ins with both Woozie and Beha. Deep sigh.

Staffing is an interesting concept and at least part of the reason we're here right now too, with regards to Reddit. But like, yeah - it's very, very easy for something like this to either become an addiction or a burden. And it's not a great feeling if people are paying for or otherwise expecting a service.

The Premium Member thing was mostly just in relation to the OG forum (I think that was a Ben invention, maybe? I just bought one or two to try experimenting since there wasn't a Wiki-post function available for vBulletin) and the VIP recommendation thread. Specifically to the point, though, my sentiment is that if things scale up or need shorn up or something I'm open to contributing (in lieu of turning off my ad-blocker ).


Oh fuck dude, it's completely exploitative. Corporations just want money; the entire time they're doing the Rainbow avatars and shilling Rainbow merchandise they're funneling money directly into the hands of the people trying to erase our very existence. They've had their accountants and data analysts run the numbers and they think their promotional items will more than offset whatever minority of people get mad and boycott for a month.

However, I know a good opportunity when I see one. These corporations, and these fake allies, may not believe a single solitary word of what they're saying... but they're saying it far and wide for upwards of an entire month. They don't believe, but people seeing the posts? They might. It's better than the alternative, complete and utter radio silence - because again there are fewer than 2 million of us collectively inside the US and probably drastically fewer in other countries, especially the UK and Canada where wait times for consultations are measured in years, not weeks - while the opposition goes on and on about how we are literally feasting on the entrails of adorable kittens.

The number of "true believers" in the Republican Party and the Gender Critical movement (TERF is not a goddamn slur, Joanne*, you people fucking coined it yourselves!) is actually pretty small too, though. Those people see an easy target in trans people to further their own agendas and to monetarily enrich themselves. I'm not going to say "they don't actually hate us," because that's patently false, but they don't care as much as you might think they do at first blush.


Oh no, absolutely. I... am a Socialist? Like that's not very surprising at this point, right? I know that's a really bad word right now, and both Socialism and Communism (which, for point of reference, are actually very alarmingly different) have drawbacks, but I mean that in the truest sense. Community, togetherness, helping one another, forming a collective whole composed of smaller interconnected networks. Sharing.

For-profit everything is as a cancer. People will regale me with the theoretical virtues of capitalism, and for many I will not argue the specific points, but the praxis is so, so very far removed from that theory. Or, at absolute bare minimum, it is as it exists today. "Apocalyptic hellscape" seems too tame an accusation to throw at a system and society that gleefully operates for-profit Healthcare that intentionally lets people they could easily save, die. Towards a system that allows and encourages for-profit prisons to use living human beings as... as... disposable batteries, essentially? Which can then also lobby congress and influence the police to pump more fuel PEOPLE into it. Shattering families, destroying hopes, killing dreams.

...Wait lemme stop myself and re-read what the point was. You can't trust me with these topics. You can't. I will never stop once I start. Right, right. I gotcha. Yes, absolutely, there are countless things that are broken in this country. And other countries, I'm not going to play favorites here - most of them suck hardcore for at minimum half of their population on most subjects at all times.

For trans people, it's kind of a double-whammy. Like at the very core of our existence is a simple truth: We were born in the wrong body. If you're spiritual, our soul inhabits the wrong vessel. If you're scientific, a series of radical genetic mutations has delivered the wrong set of instructions and resulted our bodies growing in incorrect ways. You can go about describing it in a number of ways, but invariably it's a physical condition that has long-term repercussions on our mental faculties. I cannot quite describe to you the mindfuckery that is looking in the mirror and seeing the wrong person looking back at you. If you're anorexic or something, that might be similar from an outsider's perspective? Though I'm not completely confident in making that comparison. Regardless, we are routinely denied or dismissed on both fronts.

And for good measure far too many people want to hate us, to fear us. At best legislate us out of existence (which probably results in a lot of suicides) or... at worst, classifying us as something just far enough removed from human to justify doing it themselves. Crystal go away don't read this. You're not allowed to read this, Crystal. I don't think this ends well for us. I really, really don't. Got myself fucking crying here lol. But there's at least visible movement for people that need insulin. There's hope out there for people that need the EpiPen, for those with addiction problems with like... magical miracle stuff Naloxone and shit. With some progressive organizations arranging for safe injection sites for people with addictions, to get their high in safe and controlled spaces. Trans people got Joe fucking Biden up here making concessions on sports while red states ban our actual entire existence under false pretenses, with an eye on going federal with that shit, while we're routinely referred to as inanimate fucking objects in broad daylight, while even Rainbow Capitalism receives a tiny pushback and goes "You know what? Yeah, we're all about inclusiveness and don't want to cause friction, fuck those transes" ... even while rant-writing I don't wanna use that word. DEEP. FUCKING. SIGH. Liberal(legislator)s aren't my friends, so I don't feel like I have anyone with power watching out for me and mine.

...I don't remember what my point was. I'm sorry. Circling back to the above, it's nice seeing something positive for or about us. Even if it's fake. Even if I know it's fake.



Precisely! I'm actually not generally in favor of division by sex as a matter of principle, trans or otherwise, because - and it really does vary sport to sport - there isn't a lot of rational reasoning involved for why many have continued to exclude women. Like why the fuck would you have a women's division for chess that's separate from the men's division? I saw something ridiculous about that quite recently but don't remember the exact details. But like we're digging well beyond the bottom of the barrel here in those scenarios especially.

Regardless, I'll tell you why: They still think women are inferior. And that's why they're targeting trans women, anyway, while 100% without fail ignoring our trans brothers. Damn near every bill they're passing, every "common sense proposal" they wanna push, is aimed specifically at trans women. And yeah, it'll affect us. Hurt us. Kill us. Erase us. But there aren't that many of us, Joanne*. You think those laws are going away after we're gone from the state/country/etc? 'Cause they fuckin' ain't. They're going to hurt cis women harder and for a far longer period of time than they'll hurt trans women.

I mean it's plain as day. The bathroom stuff is the same - the narrative isn't for unisex bathrooms, which I think are still probably more common than gendered bathrooms anyway? It's functionally "You must wear a skirt or a dress and conform to pig-headed feminine standards to use the women's bathroom, otherwise we're going to molest you to make sure you aren't packing." And no, conventionally attractive girls (cis or trans) aren't going to get a pass. "Oh no, sweetheart, you're far too pretty to be a real girl. I gotta check and make sure." And they'll probably get away with it on some plausible deniability technicality. Fucking hell. They gonna... like, fully complete the projection cycle and start checking kids too?

So yeah, no, I'm honestly serious. Before it gets too bad we do need to just ban all trans athletes from competing. It's likely going to happen anyway, just pull the trigger. Need to shut this shit down and make them be completely honest and transparent about what they're doing and why they're doing it. We already give up so much when we transition, and so much of that is infinitely more important than whether or not we can compete in sports.

I feel like I need to apologize again. This is not going where it should be. This isn't helpful or productive. I should stop and sleep it off. Buuut I'm gonna keep going...


No, you're probably right. I'm not a doctor, but I can't think any of the medications I'm on are Schedule II which I would assume is the question/concern? Because you don't necessarily develop a dependency to them, even if side-effects may present when going cold turkey?

But while I want to stress that I sort of understand on a basic level, this is a deeply troubling consideration. Like... nothing good would come from feeding anyone, much less children, random doses of hormones and blockers. You're probably more likely to make them sick than, I don't know, trans-ing them? Like the transition isn't instantaneous or anything. It takes time. A lot of time. And you have to hit certain milestones before more permanent things, like breast development and sterilization, start to occur and become permanent.

My mind is wheeling right now. Like I can't just say "No, that's silly. You're silly, nothing like this could ever happen~" and give you a pat and we'd move on. Because, teeechnically... it's possible? I mean the person in question would have to be so incredibly fucked in the head to do this to another person, or so very unhealthily desperate to do it to themselves. But Munchausen-by-proxy exists...


It's that last part, the wiener lol. Actual mileage may vary, but the penis withers/atrophies. A lot of trans women have erectile dysfunction and are either unable to become stiff at all, or otherwise just unable to establish enough of an erection to actually penetrate without the use of something like Viagra. And maybe even with the use of it. And they probably aren't sporting foot-long meat sticks even before shrinkage... It's a patently absurd idea in my estimation that a trans woman is going to enter a women's bathroom and successfully vaginally or anally rape a cis woman. Which is the prevailing moral panic.

More to the point of trans women not "finishing" the transition, though, it's a function of dysphoria. If the dysphoria is treated by having the female silhouette, if the penis itself isn't a direct and constant interference to their mental well-being, then they may not deem it urgent enough to go through with it even if no other impossible-to-overcome obstacles are present.

...Or with regards to the for-profit Healthcare system specifically, no crippling dysphoria = no more medically-necessary coverage = hello aforementioned ridiculously expensive surgery. If your insurance would've covered it otherwise anyway.


Trans women looking to get into relationships, especially pre-op, usually do - and recommend others do as well - be upfront about their nature prior to getting more intimate with men. I mean, at absolute bare minimum, for their own safety. Trans women getting into bed with a man, the pants coming off, an unexpected penis appearing... the likelihood of the room being occupied by a dead trans woman is far too high. Don't do it.

And I mean, I'm uh... not going to tell a married man to go look at trans women. Just, uh. Hmm.

...

There are a lot of very pretty trans women out there? I am not remotely one of them. I cannot fathom a hetero man not at least giving some of them a whirl. I would prefer to remain blissfully unaware of how many absolutely wouldn't and what that would say about my prospects. Aside from the fact that I like women, which also makes me too biased for an honest evaluation lol



* Joanne = JK Rowling. I'm not obsessed with seeing her get her comeuppance or anything.

I want to respond to add on to this, but you basically said it all. Damn, lol. Also, one other thing about the trans relationship thing -- FAR Too many people fetishize trans women, it's creepy! Some poor trans woman looking for an honest relationship is more likely to find herself trapped with some sleazy pervert who has particular ideas on how to violate her. I'm glad my interests lay in women, lol, not that my prospects are anything to shout home about.

 

[Raine]

I want to respond to add on to this, but you basically said it all. Damn, lol. Also, one other thing about the trans relationship thing -- FAR Too many people fetishize trans women, it's creepy! Some poor trans woman looking for an honest relationship is more likely to find herself trapped with some sleazy pervert who has particular ideas on how to violate her. I'm glad my interests lay in women, lol, not that my prospects are anything to shout home about.

Oh god yeah, no, absolutely never fucking associate with a Chaser. Chasers are universally bad news. Hit the eject button with the force of a fucking supernova and dip.

There's too much "futa" (GUYS, please, if you never listen to me about anything else - do not Google that if you don't already know what it is) nonsense going around especially in the gaming and anime spheres. I don't know if those types are necessarily particularly inclined to be Chasers than others, but uh... trans woman aren't that. You're not getting what you think you're getting, fellas.

---

Doubling back a little in the thread:

That one can be situational. We know all too well the stories of kids disowned by their parents for being gay, bi, lesbians, it's true for trans kids, too. Getting help from a counselor or confiding in a teacher because if they tell their parents they'll risk who knows what should not be looked down on. If it reaches a point where the kid is saying things that are concerning, then yes, involve the parents, and if the child has no such fears, then of course, include the parents. Ultimately, the situations where kids are confiding in school officials for help are situations where the school should be building up their confidence to talk to their parents, even if they want the school to mediate that talk. Facing the reality of who you are, and then having to explain that reality to people who have a significant say in your life is a horrifying thing. My dad is a bigot, a nasty one. He's the only member of my family that doesn't know because I don't want to deal with him. I'm an adult, that's fine, but I also repressed so much about myself growing up because I was scared of him becoming abusive towards me. That's true for a lot of kids in those situations.

To chime in here - also a bit of consideration for the distinction between teaching about the subject, which there probably isn't a good reason for not informing parents of prior to it happening. I think only pretty hostile parents would opt their child out of that under normal circumstances, i.e., not anytime soon. But that in and of itself may be a good indicator of which children they need to keep an especially close eye on for signs of abuse.

If and/or when an LGBT student comes forward, however, that's a different matter entirely. Protecting the kids while giving them some amount of medical consent autonomy is... tricky. I don't have a good answer for how we as a society deal with this besides more education.

It absolutely is. My daughter was entertaining the thought that she might be different than her fellow female students, until her step-mother and I sat her down and had a conversation. We didn’t push her in any direction, but we asked her why she felt that way and asked her what made her believe she may be. Long story short, by the end of the conversation she understood that she didn’t have to identify as anything at this point based purely off of the criteria she listed… musical preferences, absence of a fixation on boys as a pre-pubescent girl, interests in outdoor activities, etc. ALL things that are considered accessible to male and females, but predominantly targeted towards males based on societal standards.

I did want to double back to this too, because this is also important.

First, it's very natural and healthy to question. It's part of growing up. It doesn't necessarily mean they're questioning whether they're truly a girl or a boy, but, they are trying to figure out where they fit in life. In society. In the household dynamic. And they're going to take in all kinds of information from their parents, from their teachers, from their peers, and these days from all forms of social media they have access to.

Specifically here, your daughter is getting fed some real bad information about not only what a woman is, but what a woman can be. It's the kind of dumbassery that convinces little girls they aren't as good at math as boys, that they shouldn't aspire to STEM but rather Home Ec or some shit.

So, the trans talk is good. If you haven't though, absolutely double back and encourage her. She can be whatever the fuck she wants to be, and whoever tells her otherwise is wrong.

---

It's bed time, so it's time for the one I'm absolutely going to regret. Woo~

Spoiler: Ahead lies the ramblings of trauma.

It led to teenage depression, suicide attempts, denial, and I was generally not a good person to be around. At 18 I had the first chance to come out, to be me and to live my life, but I let my fear over family matters crush my needs. Enduring male puberty when you have the brain of a female is a never-ending nightmare. Your body taking on this broad frame, deep voice, while your compatriots are heading in the totally opposite direction. You feel a complete disconnect from yourself, from reality, and you feel a disconnect from male and female, because you know who you should be, but you're not experiencing what they're experiencing, and you don't want to be experiencing what you are experiencing. If I'd had the chance to take hormone blockers and delay puberty, I'd have done that in a heartbeat. To not have to endure the anguish, the torment of going down the wrong path would have been life changing.

So, I went over this in the Introductions thread, but we'll do it here too. To cover bases, show alternatives. In my absolutely not expert opinion things are going one of two ways: You implode, or you explode. I'm the latter. Homicidal versus suicidal. Manic versus depressed.

My experience was... similar, in ways. The depression was there (later/eventually), the denial was there. Looking back, there were absolute and unmistakable signs and I have no idea how I missed them. Things were wrong, I hated myself, I hated my body, and I manifested that in aggression. Hostility. Violence. I didn't know that you could be a woman trapped in a man's body. I mean, obviously, I saw shit like Jerry Springer. All of the transphobic "gags" in stuff like Ace Ventura, the... whatever the hell Psycho was doing with Norman Bates.

But those people are degenerates. Freaks. Those are men that got boob jobs, who the fuck does that? Not me. No, I'm a man. Clearly, I'm - I'm the tallest person in the entire elementary school. I'm taller than my teachers! I'm taller than everyone in middle school. But... I'm also hairless? I'm 15, 16, I don't have any facial hair? No chest hair? And... I have... boobs? I mean. What? I asked my grandmother, because I had gone outside without a shirt on and my friends - my male friends - made fun of me. "Oh, you're chubby and the steroids you were on probably had some sort of effect, it'll go away, don't worry about it." ... But... but I wasn't worried about it, exactly. I don't want my friends to laugh at me, but I-I didn't... I didn't hate having breasts? What???

But no, I'm a man. So what do men do. Men, uh... they're strong! They protect their families. They're good fighters. I love my family more than anything, I'm going to protect them. I'm going to be the guardian, the enforcer, the man of the house, because my own father is AWOL and my step-father is no role model. I'll crush my little brother's bullies. I'll chase away all of the boys getting near my little sister. I'M THE MAN.

Rage. Hate. This isn't working, I need to... I need to... try harder. Th-that'll do it. That'll fix it. I know you're not supposed to ask for help as a Man, but I can't... figure this out? I need help. These medications for depression, for anxiety, these will help. Talking to the therapist will definitely help. They're professionals, they know everything!

Years pass. More hate, more rage, more loathing. I absolutely tower over everyone I've ever met. I am a fucking juggernaut. 6'5", 300 pounds, everyone wants me to try out for football. I'll be fucking amazing, ain't nobody going to get through me to the quarterback. ...Wait what's a quarterback? I don't know what any of this is. I don't care what any of this is. Does... does that mean I'm not a Man? Well no, I'm a Man, so... am I not manly enough? How do I fucking fix this?!

Well that was a fucking mistake. I'm not comfortable getting undressed in front of the guys, I don't want to get made fun of again, and now they think I'm gay. What the fuck.

That was about the end of my time in school. All of my outlets were gone, so it was just me and my thoughts and my angst and my hate and my rage and my loathing. Just me and the family.

No one died, but I'm not going to finish that in public. I think, invariably, inevitably, if you put a grenade into a house and pull the pin. It's going to do what a live grenade in a house does.

I didn't properly learn what "transgender" meant, how that was different (or if it was different) from "transexual" or "transvestite", until I was 28. And I found that out on the goddamn internet after getting out of my own way and playing video games with other people.

Fucking video games are better than therapists. (<--This is NOT medically sound advice. I'm just... YOU KNOW.)

 

[Crystal]

I had a lot of similar feelings, except I never associated with being male. I associated myself as being stuck as one, yes, but never aligned as one, never trying to be one. I put on a front because I learned at an early age that different means target, so I blended in, but I never associated the person I was pretending to be with me. Gym classes, sports, roughhousing, I tried and failed it all. I'll try and detail things a little better later on, but yeah, lots of confusion and anger and depression and suicide attempts and bad things...fun times, puberty

 

[Holly]

I just read this entire exchange. I am a straight woman in a very conservative area so this is the first I've really been able to engage with these viewpoints. I wanted to thank everyone involved because I feel like I've learned a lot here and it is refreshing to see a dialogue about this rather than conversation being shut down quickly by labeling someone as -phobic or -ist.

 

[Crystal]

I just read this entire exchange. I am a straight woman in a very conservative area so this is the first I've really been able to engage with these viewpoints. I wanted to thank everyone involved because I feel like I've learned a lot here and it is refreshing to see a dialogue about this rather than conversation being shut down quickly by labeling someone as -phobic or -ist.

I'm always open to engaging, anything anyone wants to know or ask, I'm a pretty open book. I won't speak for all trans people, of course, but I can speak for my own experiences. If you're ever curious, you've got a pretty open invitation right here to ask away

 

[Crystal]

Oh god yeah, no, absolutely never fucking associate with a Chaser. Chasers are universally bad news. Hit the eject button with the force of a fucking supernova and dip.

There's too much "futa" (GUYS, please, if you never listen to me about anything else - do not Google that if you don't already know what it is) nonsense going around especially in the gaming and anime spheres. I don't know if those types are necessarily particularly inclined to be Chasers than others, but uh... trans woman aren't that. You're not getting what you think you're getting, fellas.

---

Yeah, DO NOT search that term if you aren't already familiar with it. I agree, the way that whole...sub-genre of stuff is portrayed, wow. The rate at which people pervert and fetishize trans women, and the things they picture...eek. It's scary.

Doubling back a little in the thread:


To chime in here - also a bit of consideration for the distinction between teaching about the subject, which there probably isn't a good reason for not informing parents of prior to it happening. I think only pretty hostile parents would opt their child out of that under normal circumstances, i.e., not anytime soon. But that in and of itself may be a good indicator of which children they need to keep an especially close eye on for signs of abuse.

If and/or when an LGBT student comes forward, however, that's a different matter entirely. Protecting the kids while giving them some amount of medical consent autonomy is... tricky. I don't have a good answer for how we as a society deal with this besides more education.

Unfortunately ignorance is our worst enemy in a lot of things, this subject moreso than some others. Education would be fantastic, but it's hard to get that material in front of people who won't listen.

It's bed time, so it's time for the one I'm absolutely going to regret. Woo~

Spoiler: Ahead lies the ramblings of trauma.

So, I went over this in the Introductions thread, but we'll do it here too. To cover bases, show alternatives. In my absolutely not expert opinion things are going one of two ways: You implode, or you explode. I'm the latter. Homicidal versus suicidal. Manic versus depressed.

My experience was... similar, in ways. The depression was there (later/eventually), the denial was there. Looking back, there were absolute and unmistakable signs and I have no idea how I missed them. Things were wrong, I hated myself, I hated my body, and I manifested that in aggression. Hostility. Violence. I didn't know that you could be a woman trapped in a man's body. I mean, obviously, I saw shit like Jerry Springer. All of the transphobic "gags" in stuff like Ace Ventura, the... whatever the hell Psycho was doing with Norman Bates.

But those people are degenerates. Freaks. Those are men that got boob jobs, who the fuck does that? Not me. No, I'm a man. Clearly, I'm - I'm the tallest person in the entire elementary school. I'm taller than my teachers! I'm taller than everyone in middle school. But... I'm also hairless? I'm 15, 16, I don't have any facial hair? No chest hair? And... I have... boobs? I mean. What? I asked my grandmother, because I had gone outside without a shirt on and my friends - my male friends - made fun of me. "Oh, you're chubby and the steroids you were on probably had some sort of effect, it'll go away, don't worry about it." ... But... but I wasn't worried about it, exactly. I don't want my friends to laugh at me, but I-I didn't... I didn't hate having breasts? What???

But no, I'm a man. So what do men do. Men, uh... they're strong! They protect their families. They're good fighters. I love my family more than anything, I'm going to protect them. I'm going to be the guardian, the enforcer, the man of the house, because my own father is AWOL and my step-father is no role model. I'll crush my little brother's bullies. I'll chase away all of the boys getting near my little sister. I'M THE MAN.

Rage. Hate. This isn't working, I need to... I need to... try harder. Th-that'll do it. That'll fix it. I know you're not supposed to ask for help as a Man, but I can't... figure this out? I need help. These medications for depression, for anxiety, these will help. Talking to the therapist will definitely help. They're professionals, they know everything!

Years pass. More hate, more rage, more loathing. I absolutely tower over everyone I've ever met. I am a fucking juggernaut. 6'5", 300 pounds, everyone wants me to try out for football. I'll be fucking amazing, ain't nobody going to get through me to the quarterback. ...Wait what's a quarterback? I don't know what any of this is. I don't care what any of this is. Does... does that mean I'm not a Man? Well no, I'm a Man, so... am I not manly enough? How do I fucking fix this?!

Well that was a fucking mistake. I'm not comfortable getting undressed in front of the guys, I don't want to get made fun of again, and now they think I'm gay. What the fuck.

That was about the end of my time in school. All of my outlets were gone, so it was just me and my thoughts and my angst and my hate and my rage and my loathing. Just me and the family.

No one died, but I'm not going to finish that in public. I think, invariably, inevitably, if you put a grenade into a house and pull the pin. It's going to do what a live grenade in a house does.

I didn't properly learn what "transgender" meant, how that was different (or if it was different) from "transexual" or "transvestite", until I was 28. And I found that out on the goddamn internet after getting out of my own way and playing video games with other people.

Fucking video games are better than therapists. (<--This is NOT medically sound advice. I'm just... YOU KNOW.)

 

[kid_a]

My marketing brain (day job) is kicking in so here's my two cents! This may sound lame and not so fun but I think if mods keep an eye out for "lonely posts" (e.g. things completely glossed over in a thread where lots of other conversation is happening) and ask follow up questions to engage that post/poster, you'll have a good thing going. Nothing worse than being the only person to speak up about something you like or want to say and then find out nobody else feels that way or wants to talk to you about it, ya know? So like "oh I've never played that one, what're your thoughts on gameplay?" Or "I've never heard of that band/TV show, what're 5 songs/3 episodes I should check out?" etc.

 

[Crystal]

My marketing brain (day job) is kicking in so here's my two cents! This may sound lame and not so fun but I think if mods keep an eye out for "lonely posts" (e.g. things completely glossed over in a thread where lots of other conversation is happening) and ask follow up questions to engage that post/poster, you'll have a good thing going. Nothing worse than being the only person to speak up about something you like or want to say and then find out nobody else feels that way or wants to talk to you about it, ya know? So like "oh I've never played that one, what're your thoughts on gameplay?" Or "I've never heard of that band/TV show, what're 5 songs/3 episodes I should check out?" etc.

That's something I try to do every time I scour a forum. If I can contribute to a thread that's gone wandering, I will, otherwise I'll try to reply with something sort of generic but encouraging. Have to make the effort, no one wants to feel left out!

 

[Mark]

I probably lied about the chain comment thing earlier, but I will do my best to wrangle this beast or fucking die trying.

Eh… fuck it. We got words. Lots of them. It is what it is.

So first - I like(d) Al. He was always responsive and helpful to me, but in complete fairness I didn't have all that many reasons to directly interact with him over the years. It definitely wasn't as bad for your run of the mill user or moderator as it was for all the Supers and Admins, I'm sure. Still, there was definite frustration at feeling like things could have - should have - been so easy to resolve at various points, and there were dozens of threads with thousands of posts intricately and passionately detailing what people would like to do, but... for all the talk, there was seldom movement. It was a goddamn miracle when Crystal managed to get the news contributor group together with his blessing, even if it was far too little and far too late by that point.

That’s the thing… this *may* have changed since my time, but I’d certainly be surprised, and the others before me can attest to this… There was a time, every day, and at times multiple times a day, that the mod forum would quickly be hit with a wave of “Will do. Thanks.” And “All set. Thanks.” replies from Al. Prior to my time as a regular mod… Al even accepted PM’s, which were responded to less frequently than mod forum posts. From what the elders said… prior to vB was the only time he was regularly seen outside of that forum. His absence only increased over the years… til he left out for a pack of smokes and got lost on the way to the store when he knew the sitters were already clocked in. Just kidding. The whole reason I think I was able to talk him into adding admins was because it got to a point where we were going DAYS and at times almost a WEEK without any sort of administrative contributions. Don’t get me wrong… it wasn’t like this place is now, where nothing is really finalized and there is still plenty to do behind the scenes to tweak and fine-tune things, but even the most basic of tasks piled up over a short period of time on a forum of that size. There were days where GW would easily clear 10k posts a day… sometimes more. New user registrations were in the hundreds. Then… in the off chance someone got pissed off and required an IP ban… back then, you could only implement that from the ACP… in a text box… where you had to put a comma between each IP address… and there were A LOT.

As for the size of the staff, at least throughout the 2000s, I think that was necessary. The sheer number of individual forums necessitated it. As traffic died off, obviously, we didn't need to keep having so many - but I don't know that that was a particular negative either. My personal policy was that if I wasn't needed, or otherwise felt that I couldn't contribute, that I would resign. Which I did twice, and I know many others did as well. I don't really have any complaints about that throughout any of the admin sets that I can remember off-hand.

SOME things were unnecessary, but necessitated by the staff themselves. Like the VMG. Prior to the VMG’s formation… it was hard as hell to get a consensus on topics between staff. They were intended to act as a bridge between moderation and administration… representing the 100+ moderators with a group of 12. It was an interesting concept… but, like many other things rooted in good intentions… it became a cliquey thing after the first few original members were cycled out.

If anything, I've always admired how put together the staff seemed to be. Even after getting my grubby little mitts on some power and seeing how the sausage was made.

The cohesion was there before me… kinda. Back when I joined, there were 4 smods and Al. Each smod had their own little set of tasks they specialized in, and figured out among themselves who did what. After I joined the staff… I just wanted to simplify EVERYTHING. We rewrote the forum-wide rules… the mod handbook… and even focused on having more structure at a forum level. In the time leading up to admins being added… things got increasingly more complicated in the staff, between the new mods, the old mods, the VMG, and the smods. A lot of us saw this and knew how problematic it was, which is where a lot of the early support for adding us as admins came from.

I completely understand, regretfully. Loosely related to the opener, I was a complete disaster of a person basically all throughout my time with GW. I... think I managed to handle it well? I don't remember anyone getting upset with me, at least, even if I deserved it the times I tried acting like something other than an information-spewing robot. I hope not anyway.

We were all going through growing up as the internet took a turn towards becoming a social tool. Liken it to high school, freshman year… everyone was finding their place.

Actually while writing I remembered having some nasty run-ins with both Woozie and Beha. Deep sigh.

We ALL caught shit with someone on those forums at one point or another. @Bandicoot had to warn me for something at some point, resulting in my first interactions with him and @the_promised_land had to hit me with one for spamming in the FFVII forum.

Staffing is an interesting concept and at least part of the reason we're here right now too, with regards to Reddit. But like, yeah - it's very, very easy for something like this to either become an addiction or a burden. And it's not a great feeling if people are paying for or otherwise expecting a service.

I am VERY thankful that I had the interactions and influence that I did with the staff, for better or worse. Don’t get me wrong… it’s like getting someone a job, if they fuck up… it looks bad on you… if they don’t, it looks good on them. I won’t take credit for any of the staff members because they ALL put their time in, even Ben, but I gave so many of our former admins their first crack at operating an admin panel and learning the ropes. Look at me now… it’s coming full circle and I’m given another opportunity to do something here by someone that got one of their earlier pushes working with me on forums. It’s not a stroke of the ego by any means… I’m thankful that I was able to be a part of so many people getting their feet wet with administration, because it gave GW life beyond Al, beyond me, and beyond all the other staff that came and went since then.

The Premium Member thing was mostly just in relation to the OG forum (I think that was a Ben invention, maybe? I just bought one or two to try experimenting since there wasn't a Wiki-post function available for vBulletin) and the VIP recommendation thread. Specifically to the point, though, my sentiment is that if things scale up or need shorn up or something I'm open to contributing (in lieu of turning off my ad-blocker ).

It most certainly was not a Ben invention. If anything, it was a @Cole “invention”, and I remember that detail very clearly. Newer versions of vBulletin incorporated payment options, and it allowed us to create premium member groups using separate user group “rules” for that group. He thought it would be a good idea, and it was… but when Ben took the idea over the GW and applied it… it went straight to his pocket. Over at RS… it went into an account that automatically paid the hosting bill when it was due, until the money ran out.

Oh fuck dude, it's completely exploitative. Corporations just want money; the entire time they're doing the Rainbow avatars and shilling Rainbow merchandise they're funneling money directly into the hands of the people trying to erase our very existence. They've had their accountants and data analysts run the numbers and they think their promotional items will more than offset whatever minority of people get mad and boycott for a month.

That’s actually a really interesting take that I didn’t think of, but it makes perfect sense.

However, I know a good opportunity when I see one. These corporations, and these fake allies, may not believe a single solitary word of what they're saying... but they're saying it far and wide for upwards of an entire month. They don't believe, but people seeing the posts? They might. It's better than the alternative, complete and utter radio silence - because again there are fewer than 2 million of us collectively inside the US and probably drastically fewer in other countries, especially the UK and Canada where wait times for consultations are measured in years, not weeks - while the opposition goes on and on about how we are literally feasting on the entrails of adorable kittens.

On the flip side of this… you have people seeing it, but what are they seeing? Prime example is my view on it. I have no ill will to you, or anyone else for that matter. But… what I see is a demographic being monetized and exploited. Y’all are clearly the the token advertising mascots of a month, and as disrespectful as it sounds me saying that… imagine the disrespect meant towards you in DOING that. Y’all don’t deserve to be the “token tranny” just so Bud Light can sell a couple extra cans to a couple gay rednecks. I’d much rather see a trans actor in a role playing a trans character no different than seeing a straight person playing a straight character. It’s much more honest, and gives the dignity everyone deserves. Point being… I don’t wanna see your demographic or anyone else’s just settle for a mascot position because y’all are thankful that it’s not AS common y’all will end up like Matthew Shepherd nowadays. You know what I mean?

The number of "true believers" in the Republican Party and the Gender Critical movement (TERF is not a goddamn slur, Joanne*, you people fucking coined it yourselves!) is actually pretty small too, though. Those people see an easy target in trans people to further their own agendas and to monetarily enrich themselves. I'm not going to say "they don't actually hate us," because that's patently false, but they don't care as much as you might think they do at first blush.

(FYI, I have no idea what TERF means, and I’m not trying to lose my place in this reply.)

That’s the point I’m getting at, though… as confusing at the political landscape is… it’s oddly enough the right wing that gives the fewest fucks about y’all, and that’s how it SHOULD be. No one should care about what y’all are up to, no different than no one cares about what I’m up to. The problem is the extremes on both sides… the extreme right wants you dead. Gone. Point blank. “God” hates you. Blah blah blah. The far left? You’re so stunning and brave and blah blah blah. Both are absolute bullshit opinions. One wants you to be accountable to sodomites and HIV and child molesters and whatever other devil they’re preaching about… the other wants you to have zero accountability and treat you like an exception to the rules so they can sleep better at night. Neither side truly have a dog in the race, because both refuse to genuinely get close enough to let you be on equal ground, and it’s absolute bullshit. You are no better than me, I’m no better than you, and we all are gonna eat, shit, and die on the same floating rock in space.

Oh no, absolutely. I... am a Socialist? Like that's not very surprising at this point, right? I know that's a really bad word right now, and both Socialism and Communism (which, for point of reference, are actually very alarmingly different) have drawbacks, but I mean that in the truest sense. Community, togetherness, helping one another, forming a collective whole composed of smaller interconnected networks. Sharing.

I get what you’re saying, and yeah… fuck all of those labels. Who knows what the world would be like if we actually worked together with everyone else in it?

For-profit everything is as a cancer. People will regale me with the theoretical virtues of capitalism, and for many I will not argue the specific points, but the praxis is so, so very far removed from that theory. Or, at absolute bare minimum, it is as it exists today. "Apocalyptic hellscape" seems too tame an accusation to throw at a system and society that gleefully operates for-profit Healthcare that intentionally lets people they could easily save, die. Towards a system that allows and encourages for-profit prisons to use living human beings as... as... disposable batteries, essentially? Which can then also lobby congress and influence the police to pump more fuel PEOPLE into it. Shattering families, destroying hopes, killing dreams.

I’ve got nothing to add to this one. You killed it.

...Wait lemme stop myself and re-read what the point was. You can't trust me with these topics. You can't. I will never stop once I start. Right, right. I gotcha. Yes, absolutely, there are countless things that are broken in this country. And other countries, I'm not going to play favorites here - most of them suck hardcore for at minimum half of their population on most subjects at all times.

Precisely. We all suck. We’re all gonna die. Alu sucks more.

For trans people, it's kind of a double-whammy. Like at the very core of our existence is a simple truth: We were born in the wrong body. If you're spiritual, our soul inhabits the wrong vessel. If you're scientific, a series of radical genetic mutations has delivered the wrong set of instructions and resulted our bodies growing in incorrect ways. You can go about describing it in a number of ways, but invariably it's a physical condition that has long-term repercussions on our mental faculties. I cannot quite describe to you the mindfuckery that is looking in the mirror and seeing the wrong person looking back at you. If you're anorexic or something, that might be similar from an outsider's perspective? Though I'm not completely confident in making that comparison. Regardless, we are routinely denied or dismissed on both fronts.

I can’t imagine what it would be like, but you’ve done an excellent job at preparing it in a way that makes sense in the most cavemen of brains… mine.

And for good measure far too many people want to hate us, to fear us. At best legislate us out of existence (which probably results in a lot of suicides) or... at worst, classifying us as something just far enough removed from human to justify doing it themselves. Crystal go away don't read this. You're not allowed to read this, Crystal. I don't think this ends well for us. I really, really don't. Got myself fucking crying here lol. But there's at least visible movement for people that need insulin. There's hope out there for people that need the EpiPen, for those with addiction problems with like... magical miracle stuff Naloxone and shit. With some progressive organizations arranging for safe injection sites for people with addictions, to get their high in safe and controlled spaces. Trans people got Joe fucking Biden up here making concessions on sports while red states ban our actual entire existence under false pretenses, with an eye on going federal with that shit, while we're routinely referred to as inanimate fucking objects in broad daylight, while even Rainbow Capitalism receives a tiny pushback and goes "You know what? Yeah, we're all about inclusiveness and don't want to cause friction, fuck those transes" ... even while rant-writing I don't wanna use that word. DEEP. FUCKING. SIGH. Liberal(legislator)s aren't my friends, so I don't feel like I have anyone with power watching out for me and mine.

I’ll agree with one sentiment from the far right… Fuck Joe Biden.

...I don't remember what my point was. I'm sorry. Circling back to the above, it's nice seeing something positive for or about us. Even if it's fake. Even if I know it's fake.

I get it, but… kind words only go so far. Y’all deserve some actions, even if that action is just letting y’all live your lives.

Precisely! I'm actually not generally in favor of division by sex as a matter of principle, trans or otherwise, because - and it really does vary sport to sport - there isn't a lot of rational reasoning involved for why many have continued to exclude women. Like why the fuck would you have a women's division for chess that's separate from the men's division? I saw something ridiculous about that quite recently but don't remember the exact details. But like we're digging well beyond the bottom of the barrel here in those scenarios especially.

Exactly… division based on sex and size makes sense in some sports, but not all. Let’s take the NFL for example… let’s say they hire a female kicker… and that kicker gets leveled going for 3 at 3rd and long by a defensive back. Imagine the uproar. But… there’s no reason whatsoever there couldn’t be a female pitcher in the MLB.

Regardless, I'll tell you why: They still think women are inferior. And that's why they're targeting trans women, anyway, while 100% without fail ignoring our trans brothers. Damn near every bill they're passing, every "common sense proposal" they wanna push, is aimed specifically at trans women. And yeah, it'll affect us. Hurt us. Kill us. Erase us. But there aren't that many of us, Joanne*. You think those laws are going away after we're gone from the state/country/etc? 'Cause they fuckin' ain't. They're going to hurt cis women harder and for a far longer period of time than they'll hurt trans women.

YUP, and that’s why trans women are being clumped in with biological women… some back asswards dipshit said “hur dur, they want equality? Go play with the transgender athlete and get wrecked. Even a biological man is the best female swimmer.” Then, that triggers the argument that feminists aren’t really feminists because they’re putting trans people ahead of themselves further strengthening the belief that women don’t matter. It’s SAD, dude, and makes me fear for my daughter’s future. Between reproductive rights being cut in red states and all the other obstacles… they don’t really stand a chance, and there’s so much division being forced that they can’t unite.

I mean it's plain as day. The bathroom stuff is the same - the narrative isn't for unisex bathrooms, which I think are still probably more common than gendered bathrooms anyway? It's functionally "You must wear a skirt or a dress and conform to pig-headed feminine standards to use the women's bathroom, otherwise we're going to molest you to make sure you aren't packing." And no, conventionally attractive girls (cis or trans) aren't going to get a pass. "Oh no, sweetheart, you're far too pretty to be a real girl. I gotta check and make sure." And they'll probably get away with it on some plausible deniability technicality. Fucking hell. They gonna... like, fully complete the projection cycle and start checking kids too?

The unfortunate thing with that is that we live in a fucked up world. Just because YOU won’t say or do anything inappropriate to my daughter in a public bathroom doesn’t mean that some sick fuck out there won’t pose as trans to gain access to a unisex bathroom. You very may be right about the sexual function of trans people, you would know way better than I would… but fact of the matter… if we went down a road where I could throw on a dress and have free reign in a women’s bathroom as I appear now and it couldn’t be questioned because if you did… you’re a bigot… who’s to say some opportunistic shithead doesn’t do the same? It always seems far-fetched… until it happens.

So yeah, no, I'm honestly serious. Before it gets too bad we do need to just ban all trans athletes from competing. It's likely going to happen anyway, just pull the trigger. Need to shut this shit down and make them be completely honest and transparent about what they're doing and why they're doing it. We already give up so much when we transition, and so much of that is infinitely more important than whether or not we can compete in sports.

This whole point is depressing, because it’s a game at the end of the day, and y’all should be able to be active and participate in sports no differently than anyone else… in your height, weight, skill level, etc.

I feel like I need to apologize again. This is not going where it should be. This isn't helpful or productive. I should stop and sleep it off. Buuut I'm gonna keep going...

No apologies necessary, you’re doing nothing wrong by speaking your mind.

No, you're probably right. I'm not a doctor, but I can't think any of the medications I'm on are Schedule II which I would assume is the question/concern? Because you don't necessarily develop a dependency to them, even if side-effects may present when going cold turkey?

But while I want to stress that I sort of understand on a basic level, this is a deeply troubling consideration. Like... nothing good would come from feeding anyone, much less children, random doses of hormones and blockers. You're probably more likely to make them sick than, I don't know, trans-ing them? Like the transition isn't instantaneous or anything. It takes time. A lot of time. And you have to hit certain milestones before more permanent things, like breast development and sterilization, start to occur and become permanent.

My mind is wheeling right now. Like I can't just say "No, that's silly. You're silly, nothing like this could ever happen~" and give you a pat and we'd move on. Because, teeechnically... it's possible? I mean the person in question would have to be so incredibly fucked in the head to do this to another person, or so very unhealthily desperate to do it to themselves. But Munchausen-by-proxy exists...

You’re exactly where I wanted you to be reading that, because you’re looking beyond your body and your intentions and your heart and acknowledging the darkness that is really out there… and how important it is to protect children from predatory people, because if it hasn’t happened yet… it will happen… some fucked up parent with fucked up morals will inevitably attempt to transition their kid… and those are the ones we want to protect. Your reaction tells me that you even want to protect kids from that, which in itself is proof that not every trans person is inherently evil or fucked in the head… but the grim reality is… not every predator is a Republican or Democrat or straight white guy or straight white girl or whatever. Predators adapt to their environment to stalk their prey.

It's that last part, the wiener lol. Actual mileage may vary, but the penis withers/atrophies. A lot of trans women have erectile dysfunction and are either unable to become stiff at all, or otherwise just unable to establish enough of an erection to actually penetrate without the use of something like Viagra. And maybe even with the use of it. And they probably aren't sporting foot-long meat sticks even before shrinkage... It's a patently absurd idea in my estimation that a trans woman is going to enter a women's bathroom and successfully vaginally or anally rape a cis woman. Which is the prevailing moral panic.

As mentioned above… I don’t think the fear comes from actual trans people, but the fear of predators posing as trans to grant themselves easier access. Wolves in sheep’s clothes. I don’t fear you, you’re the type of trans person I’d want to speak to my daughter if that’s the road she went down… because you’re honest, candid, and humble enough to acknowledge that you’re no different than me in the sense that predators can hide among your ranks.

More to the point of trans women not "finishing" the transition, though, it's a function of dysphoria. If the dysphoria is treated by having the female silhouette, if the penis itself isn't a direct and constant interference to their mental well-being, then they may not deem it urgent enough to go through with it even if no other impossible-to-overcome obstacles are present.

The only trans person, my sibling in-law (they’re still working out those details) I know personally still wears binders and hasn’t had top surgery. I get it, that part makes sense.

...Or with regards to the for-profit Healthcare system specifically, no crippling dysphoria = no more medically-necessary coverage = hello aforementioned ridiculously expensive surgery. If your insurance would've covered it otherwise anyway.

So you’d almost have to feign dysphoria to get treatment in some settings, which in itself could trigger… what would we call that? Late-stage dysphoria? Delayed? Dormant?

Trans women looking to get into relationships, especially pre-op, usually do - and recommend others do as well - be upfront about their nature prior to getting more intimate with men. I mean, at absolute bare minimum, for their own safety. Trans women getting into bed with a man, the pants coming off, an unexpected penis appearing... the likelihood of the room being occupied by a dead trans woman is far too high. Don't do it.

That’s what triggered the topic… conversing about whether or not it made a straight male a bigot for acting unfavorably. The bottom line for me with that is it’s a blatant breach of trust to conceal those details. That alone dooms the relationship before it even begins. Then… there’s the predatory aspect of it. We can’t say for certain there aren’t chasers on the opposite side of the spectrum. If there’s a fetish for straight men to go after trans women, you better believe the reverse exists. There’s a fetish for EVERYTHING. When “ballooning” exists… there’s a space for everything.

And I mean, I'm uh... not going to tell a married man to go look at trans women. Just, uh. Hmm.

I’m not married, but I get it, and my girlfriend gets it. I grew up with her, and her sister. Her sister is now in the process of transitioning, and she’s going to make a very feminine looking dude… something we’ve always suspected. She had an attraction to me years ago, but I always liked my girlfriend more. I couldn’t tell you why back then, other than my penchant for redheads… but now it makes sense, and there are no hard feelings for me rejecting her and going for her sister.

There are a lot of very pretty trans women out there? I am not remotely one of them. I cannot fathom a hetero man not at least giving some of them a whirl. I would prefer to remain blissfully unaware of how many absolutely wouldn't and what that would say about my prospects. Aside from the fact that I like women, which also makes me too biased for an honest evaluation lol

I wouldn’t look at it that way, dude. We’ve already established what my preferences are, and I know I’m not every woman’s cup of tea. Physically. Emotionally. Mentally. Sexually. Whatever the case may be. You don’t want what doesn’t want you… only concern yourself with someone that sees you for you and accepts you regardless of what others may say or what you may think of yourself. LOVE YOURSELF FIRST AND FOREMOST. If you do that, then you’ll eventually find happiness in someone else, but until then… you won’t waste your time chasing what doesn’t exist.

 

[Fool's Requiem]

I’ll agree with one sentiment from the far right… Fuck Joe Biden.

You probably have a difference in reasoning from them.

Biden is only Pres because the alternative was another tour with Trump. It's like going from Carter to Reagan. Reagan could have been unpopular and still would have beat Carter.

Personally, whoever is the President is irrelevant in this political climate. Congree holds all the cards and those cards are bought out by big businesses and churches. President is just a puppet, just like a commissioner of a sports league. They're just there to spout off what the owners want them to say and take all the heat.

 

[Disgustipated]

The problem I have with this point is that we’re using historical data, because we simply do not have access to data of what these children nowadays are going to be doing when they’re adults. The trans community has exploded in recent years, and we won’t really see the implications of de-transitioning until 10-15 years from now when those teenagers and young adults are further in life.

I don't have a whole lot to add to this conversation that hasn't already been said, but one thing I'd like to bring up on this specifically: When schools were banned from beating children for being lefty, all of a sudden there seemed to be a lot more lefty kids. Were there really suddenly more leftys? Were parents pushing their kids to be lefty? Or when it became unacceptable to abuse children for it were more people able to just exist as they are?

 

[Mark]

You probably have a difference in reasoning from them.

Biden is only Pres because the alternative was another tour with Trump. It's like going from Carter to Reagan. Reagan could have been unpopular and still would have beat Carter.

Personally, whoever is the President is irrelevant in this political climate. Congree holds all the cards and those cards are bought out by big businesses and churches. President is just a puppet, just like a commissioner of a sports league. They're just there to spout off what the owners want them to say and take all the heat.

100% correct. That’s not even factoring in that the president is just a glorified mascot at this point for the dominant party.

 

[Raine]

Will be wordy with Mark in a separate post later.

TERF is "Trans-Exclusionary Radical Feminist." They're not feminists at all, they're a hate group. They changed their moniker to Gender Critical because excluding people right there in your title is a little, uhh, on the nose. Shocking!

I don't have a whole lot to add to this conversation that hasn't already been said, but one thing I'd like to bring up on this specifically: When schools were banned from beating children for being lefty, all of a sudden there seemed to be a lot more lefty kids. Were there really suddenly more leftys? Were parents pushing their kids to be lefty? Or when it became unacceptable to abuse children for it were more people able to just exist as they are?

This is a fantastic point.
And as a lefty, I very much appreciate that having been sorted before my time and me not having had my knuckles cracked with a ruler.

Less neutrally/more prone to knee-jerk reactions: This is where I sit with neurodivergence (autism, et al) as well. It's not necessarily that these sorts of things are more common, it's maybe simply that we're now actively aware of them, tracking/treating them, and we have the internet to help connect with other interested/affected people.

I had a lot of similar feelings, except I never associated with being male. I associated myself as being stuck as one, yes, but never aligned as one, never trying to be one. I put on a front because I learned at an early age that different means target, so I blended in, but I never associated the person I was pretending to be with me. Gym classes, sports, roughhousing, I tried and failed it all. I'll try and detail things a little better later on, but yeah, lots of confusion and anger and depression and suicide attempts and bad things...fun times, puberty

Haha, indeed. Indeed.

I never felt like a man, I just kept trying to emulate what I thought a man was. It was... a title, or a job, more than a thing that you were. If that makes sense? I think I kind of just thought that was what everyone did, that that was normal. When you lack even the kernel of the concept, when there's nothing for a spark to ignite, there's no hope of finding the path. Or, at least, there wasn't for me. I'm not stupid, but I was definitely only just as smart as it took to know something was wrong. I was blessed to have a great family, and I'll talk shit about them any chance I get but I do think all of the professionals were doing their best to help. But none of us had the right answer, and it almost got a lot of people killed. And maybe the worst part, nobody in the entire world would know why to prevent it from happening again.

The day I came real close to becoming a family annihilator, everything shattered. Everything I thought I knew, everything I thought I was. It took... an extremely long time to get out of that crater. To convince myself that it was worth trying to piece myself back together, even if that resurrected that fucking thing** inside me. If my family hadn't stuck with me, I don't know what exactly would've happened. I mean aside from being in prison (because, ostensibly, they covered for me hardcore whilst the rest of the neighborhood watched and gossiped) and exiled and shit.

But, that's also why I know that I'm not wired the same way as some (most?) others. Never once did the idea of self-harm occur to me. When I completely lost my sense of self, when I fully succumbed* to it**, the animal or spiritual or whatever instinct didn't drive me to an end. It drove me to lash out at any and everything nearby instead without my knowledge or input. For me there was the trigger, the aftermath, and nothing in between.

I just read this entire exchange. I am a straight woman in a very conservative area so this is the first I've really been able to engage with these viewpoints. I wanted to thank everyone involved because I feel like I've learned a lot here and it is refreshing to see a dialogue about this rather than conversation being shut down quickly by labeling someone as -phobic or -ist.

I'm always open to engaging, anything anyone wants to know or ask, I'm a pretty open book. I won't speak for all trans people, of course, but I can speak for my own experiences. If you're ever curious, you've got a pretty open invitation right here to ask away

So I haven't specifically said it before, but yes - I don't speak for all trans people. Just myself. Like everything else, transgender people aren't a monolith. If you ask 100 of us how we came to be and what our perspectives are, you're probably going to wind up with nearly 100 different answers.

I'm of course also open to questions or thoughts. Following from the above, while I may upset myself in the process of figuring out an answer, I don't personally mind difficult or pointed questions. But please, please understand that this is not true of just any trans person. All trans people have trauma and all of our existences are probably founded on it beyond some members of the very most recent generation. Most of us are simply not mentally prepared to go through it again, and they may not always(/ever) act positively if things are phrased certain ways, or certain trigger words are used that you yourself could have absolutely no way of knowing in advance. If it makes it easier, think of it in the same vein as PTSD.

I would prefer my pronouns be She/Her, and I'll probably give someone a stern (or sad...) look if they deadname*** me, but I won't cause a scene or otherwise acknowledge the faux pas and continue with the exchange. Being referred to as the/a wrong gender or deadnaming will have vastly different outcomes for others.

You probably have a difference in reasoning from them.

Biden is only Pres because the alternative was another tour with Trump. It's like going from Carter to Reagan. Reagan could have been unpopular and still would have beat Carter.

Personally, whoever is the President is irrelevant in this political climate. Congree holds all the cards and those cards are bought out by big businesses and churches. President is just a puppet, just like a commissioner of a sports league. They're just there to spout off what the owners want them to say and take all the heat.

Pretty damn much.

I'm a wide host of different checkboxes, and I don't like Trump... but I will be amongst the first to tell you that he's not the problem. He's a symptom. His biggest threat was that he's easily manipulated and was surrounded by people like Stephen Miller and Steve Bannon that had goals and ambitions far beyond money and furthering a brand.

I'll still celebrate when Trump dies. But he would not be particularly high on my bucket list.



* A very important distinction in vocabulary that's become popularized more recently, but still hasn't gained widespread adoption. "Committing" suicide implies that a person actually has a choice in the matter. This is, very unfortunately, often not actually the case. Therefore the idea "Succumbing to Suicide(al Impulses)" is preferred in many inclusive circles.
** This is my personal "Start A Fucking War" button. I'm not an object; don't call me (or anyone else!) "It" or "Thing." I will react extremely unfavorably. It's the only thing that reliably rattles the cage of the beast. And I specifically refer to that beast by Other-ing terms because it's not me, I'll never accept it as part of me, and I am constantly monitoring it so that it can never surface again.
*** Deadname is just what's on the tin. If you know our original birth name, assigned to the person of a different gender other than what we present as, you're deadnaming us. It's super not cool.