Premier League 2023/24 Thread

Crazy Jamie

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Figure we need one of these. Thoughts on the games so far? Who do we think will win it?

Personally I didn't think there were many surprises the first week of the season. Arsenal, City and Newcastle looked good. I thought Chelsea and Liverpool both looked much better than last year. United were pretty awful, and I have no idea how they came out of the Wolves game with a win. Wolves were much better than I expected, played better than United and absolutely should have had a penalty at the end. It's just one result but that could be costly for Wolves by the end of the year, because they may well be in a relegation battle. United have to play better than that because it's going to be really competitive for the European places. Newcastle haven't lost a step, Chelsea and Liverpool have improved, and Spurs and Villa aren't going to go away either. I'd obviously be delighted if they didn't, but loads of time for them to gain momentum.

I still think this is likely City's title to lose. De Bruyne being out for a few months is big, but their squad is still just so strong and deep compared to others. The other European places will be really interesting, though, as will the relegation battle. I think Luton are basically already down. Could be very interesting for the other spots.
 

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If this season is about to begin, I can set up a pool if y’all want. I’m completely oblivious about soccer/football, so I’ll likely have some questions.
 

Joseph Snapple

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Hi I've decided I'm going to try to get into soccer this year with the Premier League since i'm kinda tired of the NFL and I've enjoyed going to a couple of college games. I'd enjoy a team recommendation. Using the 100% Accurate Ancestral Origin Finder that is "googling '(last name) name origin" I have placed myself in Lancashire to narrow things down, but obviously I have no idea of support trends there.
 

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Hi I've decided I'm going to try to get into soccer this year since i'm kinda tired of the NFL and I've enjoyed going to a couple of college games. I'd enjoy a team recommendation. Using the 100% Accurate Ancestral Origin Finder that is "googling '(last name) name origin" I have placed myself in Lancashire to narrow things down, but obviously I have no idea of support trends there.
BOLTON!!!

...but since everyone wants to cling to the Manc teams, I can only assume you'd likely lean towards Man City or Man United
 
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BOLTON!!!

...but since everyone wants to cling to the Manc teams, I can only assume you'd likely lean towards Man City or Man United
Valentines Day Valentine GIF by NETFLIX
 

Joseph Snapple

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Who are your teams in American sports @Joseph Snapple there are some common ownership groups that you could stick with

Liverpool have shared owners with the Red Sox for example, Arsenal is owned by the Kroenkes

Packers (lol) and Bucks. Braves receive very minor "I grew up with ted turner networks and they're technically the closest" energy from me but I also dont really follow baseball at this point.
 

Crazy Jamie

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Hi I've decided I'm going to try to get into soccer this year with the Premier League since i'm kinda tired of the NFL and I've enjoyed going to a couple of college games. I'd enjoy a team recommendation. Using the 100% Accurate Ancestral Origin Finder that is "googling '(last name) name origin" I have placed myself in Lancashire to narrow things down, but obviously I have no idea of support trends there.
So the main difference between Soccer and the NFL (or most American sports) is that the success of the individual teams tends to be more consistent from year to year, mainly because we do not have salary cap rules, nor do we have a draft. Talking about Premier League teams specifically, if a team has big buying power (and, to a degree, is well run) it should remain competitive long term. Conversely, teams that do not have that buying power are going to struggle to stay competitive year to year, and most of those inevitably have to sell to bigger clubs to survive longer team. There is also a price here to getting things wrong. If you pick a bad NFL team or your team becomes bad (I am a Texans fan, so I have some experience of this), the worst that happens is a bad season, and then you have a good set of draft picks to try to pick yourself back up. In the Premier League, if you fall you fall out of the division entirely, and it is very difficult to get back into it. To give an example, in the early 2000s Leeds United were a really good Premier League team. They finished in the top 4, and got to the semi finals of the Champions League. Then they were relegated and weren't in the Premier League for 16 years. They were promoted back into the Premier League in 2020, and were then relegated again last season.

There is a lot of regional loyalty in football. If you grew up in a family supporting a particular team, you probably support that team and will stick with them regardless. But as an outsider coming into the sport, you realistically want to support a good, well run team. It means you'll get to share in some success, but you'll also get to watch them more because better teams are on tv more. Which practically is a good thing. You're just not going to enjoy supporting a Championship team trying to get back to the Premier League. In practice that reduces the pool of viable teams quite a bit, and here are my thoughts on them:

Manchester City - They are the dominant team in English football at the moment, and probably will be for quite some time. Why? Because they have all the money, the best players and one of the best coaches. They play outstandingly attractive football. They're also under serious investigation for breaching Financial Fair Play rules (the only thing we have that even remotely controls spending), so could see their last six or so titles stripped from them. In any event, they're seen by established fans as a soulless team who almost hasn't really earned their success because of the sheer amount of money they have spent. Every generation there's a team that kids start to support because they're the best team, and City are that team at the moment. They have established fans who have supported them for a long time, but this isn't remotely the same club that they supported decades ago. They didn't build themselves up and properly earn their success. They were bought by the Qataris who just flooded the club with money. Over the years it has hurt me when Liverpool's other rivals have earned success, such as winning the Champions League. City did it last year and I genuinely didn't care. I just don't see them as a serious team despite their success. Honestly I don't really see why you'd support them. There's just so little genuine joy in it in my view.

Arsenal - During the years when United were dominant (see below) Arsenal were the only team who consistently challenged them until Chelsea were bought out by Abramovich. They were managed by Arsene Wenger, and he revolutionised the way football was played. His players were skilled and physically fit, and they played great football. They're the only Premier League team to go the entire season unbeaten (in 2003/04). Then when Wenger moved on they dropped back for a while and didn't challenge for the league for a while. That changed last year. Their current manager (Mikel Arteta) has them playing great football with some good, young players. It's like the old Arsenal in many ways. They came second last year, and I cannot guarantee that they'll maintain that challenge and finish top 4 (which is where you want your team to finish to secure Champions League football), but they have a good chance to. They're also a well run team that plays good football, so should be on your shortlist.

Manchester United - Alright. Deep breath. I'll try to be objective. Full disclosure; I am a Liverpool fan and I therefore dislike Manchester United. It's just how it is. In my lifetime they've been the most dominant team, because they were managed by probably the best manager of all time (Alex Ferguson). As a Liverpool fan, being subjected to their consistent and long term success was really tough. Even now, they remain one of the biggest clubs in the world on sheer appeal. However. On the pitch they've been pretty dysfunctional since Alex Ferguson retired. They've spent a lot of money (they have the global appeal to spend a lot of money), but they have bought a lot of duds. They have churned through managers who weren't given a chance to mould the team into their own style of play. They now have a new manager, Erik Ten Haag, who I quite like, and last season he managed to get them into the top 4, which was an incredible achievement. But this season they've started really badly, and last season is starting to look like a fluke. Fundamentally, I just don't think they're a very well run club, and they haven't been for a while. They're a massive club. But not a well run one, and most of the United fans I know are very frustrated by that. It is for that reason that I'd suggest you don't support them, because I don't know when that will be fixed.

Newcastle United - Who? Well, you might well ask. But you have to consider them. They've always been a decent enough Premier League team, and in the 90s contended for the title. In the 00s they were relegated and promoted again a couple of times. Then they were bought by Saudi Arabia, who have flooded the club with money just like the Qataris did with City. In their first full season under control, they finished in the top 4, which would have been unthinkable even a year before. Does that mean they're just going to become like City? Maybe. But maybe not. The thing is, they haven't just bought all the best players in the world. They've got in a manager (Eddie Howe) who has a good national reputation, but he isn't world renowned like Guardiola was before City got him. They've spent quite a lot of money on players, but they've bought young players to develop, not well known world beaters. In my view it makes them a bit more likeable and a team that is easier to support. They've also not had that massive success yet, so you can at least get in one the ground floor with them.

Chelsea - They were generally seen as a 'pretty good' team until 2004, when Roman Abramovich bought them with Russian money. Then they became contenders, and won a lot of trophies in subsequent years. They then started to be run in a really dysfunctional way, and churned through managers at an incredible rate, even when those managers won trophies. They've recently been bought by Todd Boehly, who has just continued the approach of pumping incredible amounts of money into the club. But they are still really badly run, and last season finished 12th, which is just unthinkable for a club with this much money. They have just brought in Mauricio Pochettino as their manager, and he's good and likeable, but honestly I wouldn't go near them. They've started badly this season again, and chances are Pochettino won't last until Christmas if they don't improve. A club that is really unlikeable in my view, and I don't see why you'd choose to support them.

Tottenham Hotspur - I'm putting them here because they've been a 'big team' for a while but have always fallen short of sustained challenge and haven't won a trophy in ages. To the point where teams that choke are referred to as being a bit 'Spursy'. And they've just sold their best player. They've actually started really well, but my fear is that we'll reach a point where they just can't compete against any of the teams above them on this list. At which point supporting them probably won't be fun. I do have a bit of a soft spot for them, but I wouldn't support them in your position.

Liverpool - Right. Obviously I support Liverpool, so I cannot pretend I'm not biased. Liverpool were dominant in the 70s and 80s, and during that time became one of the biggest clubs in the world. In the 90s we didn't do a lot. In the 00s we were always challenging for the Premier League, and finished second on a few occasions, but also won a trophy every few years (including a really memorable Champions League win in 2005). In 2013/14 we should have won the league, but choked and let City win it. Then in 2015 we appointed Jurgen Klopp as our manager, and everything changed. He's not perfect, and in particular has had some poor behaviour towards referees recently that I don't like. But generally he's pretty well liked by football fans generally. He's passionate. He speaks his mind. He's charismatic. And his teams play really good football. In the last five years he's taken us to three Champions League finals (winning one of them), has won the FA Cup and League Cup, and we also won the Premier League in 2019/20. We do spend a lot of money, but our owners do not bankroll us like City's owners do. I know there are opposition fans who do not like us, but our fan base is a lot of fun, and even then we have a smaller stadium than the likes of Old Trafford, the atmosphere at Anfield during a big match is just something else. I know I would say that, but actually an awful lot of very well known players for other teams say that Anfield is the hardest ground to play at because of the crowd. It's a big reason why I love this club. We had a down year last year and still finished 5th, but the club was transitioning, with a lot of older players having moved on. Early signs this season are decent, but we are now competing against the likes of Newcastle, with a lot more money than us. Still, we should still be competitive and should still finish in the top 4 consistently going forwards, because the club is well run and has the profile to spend money year on year.

There are other teams. Brighton have not been in the Premier League for very long, but are incredibly well run. The problem is, there is always a team like Brighton that comes along every three, four or five years. They rarely maintain their position long term. They'd be a fun team to support because they've started really well this season again, but they'll likely always be a team that needs to sell to big clubs to survive, and not a big club themselves. That sort of club is always so much more vulnerable than you think. Equally, Aston Villa look good this year and may push for a European place. They've also been a Premier League club forever so are pretty stable. But they're unlikely to maintain this sort of form long term. Basically every other team is more likely to get relegated than sustain a challenge for the title, so I'd stick to the ones I've listed.

And of the ones I've listed, I'd go Liverpool, Arsenal or Newcastle. Probably in that order for all the reasons I've said. I am biased in favour of Liverpool but hopefully have explained why I'd still go for them. If you already tended towards them you must have had your reasons too.
 

Joseph Snapple

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Jamie that is an incredible rundown, thank you.

I'll be up front Newcastle was actually an early consideration but then I remembered who bought them and struck them. Obviously no good billionaires etc., but there's just kind of a line there. Nothing against Newcastle's fanbase, they can't control that shit and I don't expect anyone to stop support for their team based on the owner, but as someone looking in from across the ocean it's just a very easy "that's a pass".

Process of elimination from there, I think that was the last little nudge I needed toward Liverpool lol. I did feel a light draw toward Arsenal (just because I enjoy the name and logo) but man I fucking hate Kroenke, fuck him. Liverpool seems to meet my personal preference for a stable, competitive team that was roughly in the region I decided to use as my reference point. I also admittedly kinda fell in love with the incorporation of "You'll Never Walk Alone".
 

Crazy Jamie

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I hate that once upon a time you would have listed Everton in the others, but now we are not even an afterthought
Everton are never an afterthought for me, but I can't recommend that a new fan starts to support them now. You'll do very well to avoid relegation this year. It feels like you need relegation to just properly reset and come back stronger in a few years. You've been hanging on for a few years now and honestly it's painful to watch. Whilst I never want Everton to do better than Liverpool, I do want you to do well, but you can't go on like this.
 

Crazy Jamie

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Funnily enough, I've realized this came up just in time for Liverpool vs Newcastle lol
It's as big as a game as one this early can be. It's in Newcastle and they are rightly favourites to beat us, but if we want to put a marker down early that we've improved from last year, we could really do with coming away with at least a draw. We definitely can win, mainly because Newcastle will come at us and we're very good on the counter attack, but Newcastle are quite legitimately a very good team and our defence isn't very good, so that's a big ask. It should be a really good game though. Games between Newcastle and Liverpool are historically good to watch, even before they were taken over.
 

Crystal

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Everton are never an afterthought for me, but I can't recommend that a new fan starts to support them now. You'll do very well to avoid relegation this year. It feels like you need relegation to just properly reset and come back stronger in a few years. You've been hanging on for a few years now and honestly it's painful to watch. Whilst I never want Everton to do better than Liverpool, I do want you to do well, but you can't go on like this.
I hated when people said this about Bolton, but it was so true once we found out what was going on behind the curtains, only to get screwed over by the next owner. So glad we did get relegated and have slowly rebuilt a foundation any team could be proud of. Best chairperson in football, too, imo. Sharon is amazing!

Sonic the same can happen for Everton, then absolutely go for it!
 
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Everton are never an afterthought for me, but I can't recommend that a new fan starts to support them now. You'll do very well to avoid relegation this year. It feels like you need relegation to just properly reset and come back stronger in a few years. You've been hanging on for a few years now and honestly it's painful to watch. Whilst I never want Everton to do better than Liverpool, I do want you to do well, but you can't go on like this.
Our off-field management has been an embarrassment for many years now. Between Kenwright, Moshiri (and the Usmanov undertones) and Denise Barrett-Baxendale the club has gone from bad to worse with the only seemingly positive thing we have done being the new build at Bramley Moore.

While I agree we need the reset my genuine fear would be that once we go down we won't be back for at least a decade.

Gone of the days of being excited to get up at 2am to watch Cahill, Arteta, Fellaini, Yakubu, Pienaar, Jagielka etc perform above the expectations in front of a pumping crowd at Goodison. The only person I feel currently has any passion for the Club is Seamus Coleman who remains to me some of the best business any Club in PL history has done.
 

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While I agree we need the reset my genuine fear would be that once we go down we won't be back for at least a decade.
We've been down for 11 years. It's hard, but so long as Everton don't wind up with a Ken Anderson situation, they'll be back quicker than that. It's been a roller coaster, no one can deny that, but the place Bolton are in now, in terms of ownership stability, organizational structure, actually paying bills...it's been amazing to see the club go from nearly non-existent to stable. A long way from the Prem, yes, but getting there.
 

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Alright y’all, here is the EPL 2023-24 Season pool. I don’t know if I’m missing any teams or not… I googled a complete list and then the very first game I added I realized that Luton Town FC wasn’t on the list I used as a reference for what that’s worth.

I also only set the lock time at midnight the day of for the first game, I’m waiting to hear back about the time zone difference and whether or not the time I set is going to be based off of my time zone or theirs.

Other than that… y’all should be set for at least the first game.
 

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Realizing with terror that a lot of games are gonna be airing during church hours for me lol
It's rough following the Premier League in the US at times. I only get to watch a live match about 2-4 times a month usually. Gonna be a lot less for me this year with Chelsea not competing in Europe.
 

Crystal

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Alright y’all, here is the EPL 2023-24 Season pool. I don’t know if I’m missing any teams or not… I googled a complete list and then the very first game I added I realized that Luton Town FC wasn’t on the list I used as a reference for what that’s worth.

I also only set the lock time at midnight the day of for the first game, I’m waiting to hear back about the time zone difference and whether or not the time I set is going to be based off of my time zone or theirs.

Other than that… y’all should be set for at least the first game.
Reminder to my dumbass to get this finished tonight
 

Crazy Jamie

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what a first liverpool game to watch, jesus christ
Settle in. I swear Liverpool are involved in more games like this that the average team, although even by our standards that one was something else.

I was a big critic of Nunez last season. He's big and athletic and no doubt has raw talent, but at times it was like he had never been on a football pitch before. He was caught offside so often, and his finishing was really not very good at all. That performance suggests that he might have learned how to finish and learned how to run off the shoulder of a defender. If he can do that a bit more often than he could be in for a very exciting season with our other options up front.
 

Joseph Snapple

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Figure this could actually be a good place to ask this:

So, when I was first getting into the NFL around ~12 years ago, Madden was actually a huge help in getting to know the teams, players, and some very general game knowledge. Would EA's FIFA (just FC from now on, I suppose) games be of similar help?
 
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Figure this could actually be a good place to ask this:

So, when I was first getting into the NFL around ~12 years ago, Madden was actually a huge help in getting to know the teams, players, and some very general game knowledge. Would EA's FIFA (just FC from now on, I suppose) games be of similar help?
Yes it would be. Game knowledge a little less so because it's of course simulated and football not being as 2 dimensional as NFL makes it fractionally harder to replicate.

Other good resources would be the PL website which has a massive database.

Also I will answer any question you have and try to direct you to fair unbiased info (except where it comes to Everton where I promise to tell you how shit we are)
 

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Figure this could actually be a good place to ask this:

So, when I was first getting into the NFL around ~12 years ago, Madden was actually a huge help in getting to know the teams, players, and some very general game knowledge. Would EA's FIFA (just FC from now on, I suppose) games be of similar help?
FIFA was a big help for me.

I decided I wanted to get into the Premiere League about 10-11 years ago. I have a good friend who is a big fan and I'd come over and watch matches with him. I fully intended to choose my own different club to support once I started getting into things.

My friend was super cool about telling me little stories about the history of his club (and why people like to say the club HAS no history). And this coincided with the club making a crazy run to win the Champions League for the first time and BAM I was brainwashed into supporting Chelsea forever.

But anything outside of Chelsea I had ZERO knowledge. FIFA did a good job laying a foundation for the rest of the league and others as well. r/soccer did the rest, for better or worse.
 
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alright if y'all so eager to help then explain offsides
Right, OK.

A player is considered offside if any part of their body that they can score with (so any part of your body except arms) is nearer to the opponent's goal line than both the ball and the second last opposition player.

Firstly, it is only when you are in the opponents half that is why you will notice a lot of strikers stay very close to the half way line when their team is defending even if they're closer to goal than the defenders as long as they don't step over half way they're not onside.

Secondly, the second to last defender is any combination of opponents. Typically it will be the goal keeper plus one other but if the goal keeper is horrendously out of position it will be two outfield players (this is an especially important distinction for corners and crossing situations where the goalkeeper may need to move further away from goal to attack the ball with their hands while defenders drop towards the goal line to defend the net).

This while a little drab is perhaps the most simple illustration I have seen:


I will further add an opinion on offside, with the implementation of VAR this rule is being applied to the nth degree, so it's almost unrealistic. If those cameras can see even one toenail ahead of the second to last defender they will call you offside where traditionally that would be too close to tell. Couple in the complexity of humans interacting with visual planes from TV cameras etc to make a decision and the rule is almost a crap shoot in those situations.
 

Crazy Jamie

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I will further add an opinion on offside, with the implementation of VAR this rule is being applied to the nth degree, so it's almost unrealistic. If those cameras can see even one toenail ahead of the second to last defender they will call you offside where traditionally that would be too close to tell. Couple in the complexity of humans interacting with visual planes from TV cameras etc to make a decision and the rule is almost a crap shoot in those situations.
This is worth stressing. Don't worry about the lines that VAR are drawing on the pitch for offsides now. They've come in for a lot of criticism, and even from game to game they appear inconsistent as to where they are drawn. They draw the lines because the powers that be have taken the view that offside isn't a matter for discretion; it either is offside or it isn't. Personally I think that view is a little naive, because it's never been definitively determined what part of your body needs to be ahead of the last defender to be offside. For example, look at this offside decision from the Chelsea Liverpool game two weeks ago:

Screenshot 2023-09-01 at 12.25.35.png
The blue line is clearly in the right place, because it's on the toe of the defender. Fine. Which part of Salah's body is touching the red line though? Arguably none of it, but if anything it's his hand, which can't be counted for offside. It's not where the line is, but is Sarah's right shoulder offside? Maybe. It's really difficult to tell. His legs and his torso definitely aren't offside though. But it shows the issue of where you put the lines, particularly when one person is in motion and one isn't. Personally I don't think they should draw those lines at all. Just look at a replay, and if the player is obviously offside, rule the goal out for offside. Otherwise the goal stands. I still think this goal should probably have stood. This is an ongoing debate though, and the point is not to worry about those lines.

Similar advice applies to the handball rule. Generally if the ball hits your hand, it's a handball. Except it has to be 'deliberate', and the meaning of that changes virtually every year. It's very much like the catch rule in the NFL. Again, don't worry about it too much. Even us fans don't really know what the rule is anymore, and unlike in the NFL where the pundits are actually generally very good, the pundits in football are generally absolutely awful and haven't even read the rules themselves, so don't expect to get clarification from them.
 
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