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Zell Wolf GWF Wolf - Zell's Version Day 4
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If you guys Berserked Vash, you had a shot. I don't know if anyone was pointing fingers at Killface at all. Cole was onto Kat, but the 16d chess post you made made it hard to read if you were being serious to cover or get her killed because she was a townie.
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Still hate it though!
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I pointed at Killface very early on in day 2.
But absolutely they should have berserked either vash or kut.
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Here’s my thoughts on the game. The first time we played the game I didn’t want to say anything because I wanted to see what people came up with organically. Now I want to make some corrections.
First, I want to post the blurb I sent to the wolves as tips in their PM:
Welp, the wolves laid low, and they got absolutely slaughtered. The game was over day 1 when the solo killer was identified and none of the wolves had claims. I don’t want to be too harsh on the evils here, they are used to playing a different game, and I expect @Fire Queen to keep that game going.
The town has the advantage (I know Cole will disagree). They have the numbers, and if the game drags they’ll get the information too. It’s not that role claiming is a central part of the game, but if you are a villager and you are unwilling to claim a role, you are actively hurting the village by granting the wolves a knowledge advantage and a place to hide by claiming your role. They have a seer and likely know what you are already. If both sides play perfectly it’s likely a town win.
Evils need to be aggressive. Force the town into making mistakes. Let’s see how the town handles three detectives and four aura seers all calling each other evil (including wolves selling each other). Flood the zone with bullshit and force the gunner to make a mistake. Or paralyze the town and pick them off at night. Keeping the solo killer alive can be a huge boon for the wolves, as you can get two villagers killed every night. Keeping the fool alive as long as possible helps too, as really only the evils should fear lynching if the town is playing well.
The “random roles” are there to help the wolves. There actually CAN BE two aura seers, so if one aura dies lynching the other assuming it’s a wolf could be a huge mistake.
There are some villagers who DO want to remain unclaimed. The medium in particular. But if you just stay unclaimed, you’ll get figured out. The wolves narrowed down the medium to one of only three people when they killed Benzine. One of the others was the gunner. So you can’t let that happen, but you can’t claim medium either. Maybe you claim Tough Guy or Sheriff or Beast Hunter or something. Once you revive you can come clean. That’s part of why I loved Ryan’s play, villagers have a reason to lie too sometimes.
I said a perfect game goes to the town. This wasn’t perfect. Here are some things I would have considered trying.
First, wolves just take the free win on wiping out the detective. If you aren’t going to kill the detective, have someone fake detective and say the detective is on a different team from someone you know is townie. If you come out day 1 and say “Cole and shortkut are on a different team” then shortkut probably gets potioned. It forces a hard decision to be made, which only helps you.
Fool’s Requiem got in a tight spot early but could have gotten out. If you just claim doc you are probably in the clear. You didn’t know this, but Ryan would have had a hard time counter-claiming you because he had just claimed BG. I don’t think Holly would straight drop a potion on the only doctor claim.
The wolves got an excellent shaman that made Vash look guilty. But, there was no other aura seer, so the information could be disregarded. If there’s another wolf faking aura seer out there and Vash shows evil by the proven detective he’s catching a bullet. If there is another detective claim shortkut gets lynched soon after for providing “fake info”.
There are many different strategies as the fool. One is to just say nothing. Just exist, and hope the other evils get put in a tough spot and have to lynch without information. One is to spout a bunch of bullshit information. The fool is basically indistinguishable from the solo killer according to information roles. Once the bullets are gone, you can wreak havoc.
One other spot that could have helped evils was the two witches. This is my fault for sending enough info in the PM that it could be used as verification. Going forward that won’t happen.
I’m not going to significantly tweak the roles for the next game. The roles will be a little different for variety. I don’t think this group is significantly different from the thousands of others that have played, but you have to be willing to lie and lie well to win this version. The points in the Hall of Fame are adjusted according to how challenging I think each team is to win with.
First, I want to post the blurb I sent to the wolves as tips in their PM:
Welp, the wolves laid low, and they got absolutely slaughtered. The game was over day 1 when the solo killer was identified and none of the wolves had claims. I don’t want to be too harsh on the evils here, they are used to playing a different game, and I expect @Fire Queen to keep that game going.
The town has the advantage (I know Cole will disagree). They have the numbers, and if the game drags they’ll get the information too. It’s not that role claiming is a central part of the game, but if you are a villager and you are unwilling to claim a role, you are actively hurting the village by granting the wolves a knowledge advantage and a place to hide by claiming your role. They have a seer and likely know what you are already. If both sides play perfectly it’s likely a town win.
Evils need to be aggressive. Force the town into making mistakes. Let’s see how the town handles three detectives and four aura seers all calling each other evil (including wolves selling each other). Flood the zone with bullshit and force the gunner to make a mistake. Or paralyze the town and pick them off at night. Keeping the solo killer alive can be a huge boon for the wolves, as you can get two villagers killed every night. Keeping the fool alive as long as possible helps too, as really only the evils should fear lynching if the town is playing well.
The “random roles” are there to help the wolves. There actually CAN BE two aura seers, so if one aura dies lynching the other assuming it’s a wolf could be a huge mistake.
There are some villagers who DO want to remain unclaimed. The medium in particular. But if you just stay unclaimed, you’ll get figured out. The wolves narrowed down the medium to one of only three people when they killed Benzine. One of the others was the gunner. So you can’t let that happen, but you can’t claim medium either. Maybe you claim Tough Guy or Sheriff or Beast Hunter or something. Once you revive you can come clean. That’s part of why I loved Ryan’s play, villagers have a reason to lie too sometimes.
I said a perfect game goes to the town. This wasn’t perfect. Here are some things I would have considered trying.
First, wolves just take the free win on wiping out the detective. If you aren’t going to kill the detective, have someone fake detective and say the detective is on a different team from someone you know is townie. If you come out day 1 and say “Cole and shortkut are on a different team” then shortkut probably gets potioned. It forces a hard decision to be made, which only helps you.
Fool’s Requiem got in a tight spot early but could have gotten out. If you just claim doc you are probably in the clear. You didn’t know this, but Ryan would have had a hard time counter-claiming you because he had just claimed BG. I don’t think Holly would straight drop a potion on the only doctor claim.
The wolves got an excellent shaman that made Vash look guilty. But, there was no other aura seer, so the information could be disregarded. If there’s another wolf faking aura seer out there and Vash shows evil by the proven detective he’s catching a bullet. If there is another detective claim shortkut gets lynched soon after for providing “fake info”.
There are many different strategies as the fool. One is to just say nothing. Just exist, and hope the other evils get put in a tough spot and have to lynch without information. One is to spout a bunch of bullshit information. The fool is basically indistinguishable from the solo killer according to information roles. Once the bullets are gone, you can wreak havoc.
One other spot that could have helped evils was the two witches. This is my fault for sending enough info in the PM that it could be used as verification. Going forward that won’t happen.
I’m not going to significantly tweak the roles for the next game. The roles will be a little different for variety. I don’t think this group is significantly different from the thousands of others that have played, but you have to be willing to lie and lie well to win this version. The points in the Hall of Fame are adjusted according to how challenging I think each team is to win with.
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I tried. They wouldn’t listen to me.
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Why did they go after the medium? Especially after my last message to them.
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I didn’t have anything to do with it, but I don’t think wolves should be in the business of helping the town avoid the fool unless they are absolutely dominating the game. If they wanna vote the fool that’s on them. Take your HoF point
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a lot of this is EXACTLY what I said in the threads. if people go back and look, I was ENCOURAGING people to lie, to tell a story, to play the game. and every one kept just saying
"
I refuse to admit what role I am."so don't. LIE. just spin any God damn story you want. there was so many potential layers to this game, and the layer that was chosen was basically like "argh no, they found me, I lose!"
I didn't force people to reveal, I encouraged them to participate.
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I felt that the fool protected the wolves from lynching. And after my second reading, we had the advantage, because we were the only ones who knew definitively who he was.I didn’t have anything to do with it, but I don’t think wolves should be in the business of helping the town avoid the fool unless they are absolutely dominating the game. If they wanna vote the fool that’s on them. Take your HoF point
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I beg to differ.
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It literally saved my ass long enough to use my ability a second time.
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No, I was just being an ass and saying you weren't the only ones who knew. Technically you're correct in that you definitively knew, though.
ONE LAST LONG POST, read if you like. A lot of this will be about the game itself, and what I think Zell could improve upon, what I'd like to see WHETHER I WAS WOLF OR TOWNIE OR OTHER, and how this can be ideal.
Some will be my choices in this game, and what I think others could have done to counter it.
Initially I didn't like how many roles were in this game, I don't feel like a game where EVERYONE has a role is very interesting on average. I also never like the games where all the wolves have roles. (Again, speaking for future games where I MIGHT POTENTIALLY BE A WOLF, or a townie without a role), I don't love that element of it. Whatever odds Zell has for wolf games, I trust, hes a math guy. But in my experience, wolf games are based in asymmetrical balance. The town has the numbers, but not the information. The wolves have no numbers, but they have all the information.
This game was slightly different, the Fool and the Serial Killer add another element that the wolves have to consider, that they don't have the information for, they almost have to work WITH the town to find these things.
I was initially confused on why Zell had that whole "extra roles" list of all the roles that might not be in the game but could have been. But as the game went on, I started to understand. Those roles were there PURELY for false role claiming. There are so many roles the wolves or SK could have claimed that we couldn't have proved otherwise. As Zell said, a wolf could have claimed they were the doctor, and what was Ryan gonna do? "Just kidding, I really am the doctor, this person is lying." Even if Ryan is telling the truth, HE CANT PROVE IT, and now we don't know who is who.
The extra roles were great, and I love the idea. I'd still rather not everyone have a role, but having a "pool" of roles that can be selected from at random is a great idea for balance, because then no one can definitively say "nah that ones me" (like what happened with Holly).
The days and nights were too long, but I really liked Zells addition to add an option to skip, in the future, I think thats a great idea. With everyone being adults with complicated lives, I think LONG day and nights are a must have to make sure everyone can find time to play. But there needs to be some kinda safety net, especially in the late game, where people can be like "yeah, we know what to do, lets just get to the next phase." That was good.
The chronology of night events needs a little work, and Zell agreed. They can't be straight chronological because lives, time zones, it just isn't fair. Once he explained that some acts were always at the end, and that townies kind of "came first", it was more okay. But what I suggested (I believe publicly) was a sort of... priority queue listed in the rules. It doesn't matter WHEN someone sends their actions, but each role has a priority as to who acts first. (For example) the doctors protection is always the first action considered, any kills on his target after that are irrelevant. The wolves always go very last, after all other decisions are factored. Then maybe the witch is later in the night, not a guaranteed protection or kill depending on who is targetted, etc. Lay it out in the rules so you know "if you're a the medium, and the serial killer targets you AND the witch protects you, you die. The serial killers actions take place before the witch." Not only does it eliminate the issue of time zones and schedules, but it also adds a layer to what can and can't be discussed in the thread.
In day 1, we laid out exactly what was going to happen, and it didn't overly matter because the serial killer or wolves couldn't "get their kill in before the protection took place", well I propose it's more laid out.
role claiming: in *THIS* particular game, its pretty much a game element and I think it worked fine as such. There were plenty of ways to check validity of peoples role claims, there were extra roles you could have used to divert suspicion or any combination. Could it be modified? Sure. there could be some sort of restriction on role claiming, like "you have to have one vote on you before you can role claim" or something, but I don't even think it's necessary. Role claiming is a risk, good or bad, and thats part of the game.
Outside of game discussion: this one is the definition of contention and I get why people are conflicted. For me personally, if this was a "real town" and I had reasonable suspciion shortkut was the detective, I'm gonna sneak off with him at some point to strategize, we're not just gonna discuss it in front of everyone. Its h arder because we can't "monitor" PMs, but we're working on an honor system. I have like 6 of th e people from this game on other platforms I could've talked to them even if we didnt wanna use PM.
So if we're gonna use the honor system, why not do it anyway? Dont share screenshots of role PMs, don't talk during the night, whatever else we have to do insure that out of thread discussion is still in the SPIRIT of the game.
My quoting of Zells PM. If there's ONE THING I will grant that was on the "slightly shadier" side, it was quoting Zells PM. Firstly: when I first posted it, I did not say it was verbatim, I just put it in quotes, but phrased it as that's what I was informed. The only people that would have ever known about it is myself, Zell, and if there was another potential witch. It wasn't against the rules, but I can see where people would feel like it bordered on "the spirit of the game", but regardless. It happened to work out as Holly was a witch and DID catch it, and then Zell inadvertently confirmed by banning it moving forward. It wasn't against the rules hwen I did it, and I didn't do it in a way that like "proved I was right", for all anyone knew prior to Holly announcing it, I could've been talking out of my ass. It definitely SHOULD be banned (or at least mitigated by less specific DMs) in the future, of course.
the fool is a great role, and I'll give more on this for this specific game, but having a role this disruptive is great.
I HATE the idea of the berserker wolf. every play in this game should have a counter play, and there is no counter play to a super kill that is a guaranteed success. especially when it could take out a multitude of townies at once given the right set of events.
the shaman wolf is great, and even when not used is enough of a threat to question the facts even when a seer identifies a bad guy.
I feel like I had other things to bring up in terms of consistency, but my mind is going blank.
As far as how this game lined up, Im gonna repeat myself on some things, but whatever.
I had told Zell in PM after he gave me my role I didn't plan on role claiming. I'm not a huge fan of it, at least not without a purpose. It belongs in the game, but that I didn't wanna do it "for nothing."
But when the game started, I was also having a conversation in the old thread with Kat about how minimally I lie, she identified a few things I lied about, and I came up with a gameplan for this game. Not just honesty, but disclosure. I don't *think* lied at any point in this game (there were a couple of times typing long posts that I zoned out on and I wasn't as careful to include everything).
And I also decided, "alright, lets just claim my role right now, no ones gonna believe it anyway, so why not". Figured at the very least, me getting wolf mauled night 1 would be amusing.
Every other role reveal from that point forward, I never *forced* anyone to do it, even if that was how it appeared. I said several times "lie, tell the truth, do both", I just wanted people to tell me stories. I wanted people to defend being accused however they wanted to.
Ryan took this perfectly, he FALSE role claimed to cover his high value townie role.
Holly was "basically" forced into it, because she made a mistake about how many witches their could be, and without admitting the truth, she likely would have erroneously died.
The SK from this game, Tommy, Ants, Alu, Vash, ANYONE else I encouraged to talk, look back, I encouraged you to TELL A STORY, not to tell me what you were. Part of the fun of these games for *me* is deciphering lie from truth, it's my specialty, and I wanted to see who could sell me. I pushed for people to just feed me whatever they wanted and I'd see if I could pick apart the threads, but no one wanted to play ball. the Serial Killer, Tommy, Ants, they were all enemies and I guess didn't want to FALSE role claim, and instead got a little heated that they thought I was asking them to tell us which enemy they were. I was not. That's fucking boring as SHIT. I was encouraging them to give me reason to doubt the story. Ants role claiming on day 1 with a false unverfiable role claim could have spiraled this entire game out of control. It would have cast suspicion on shortkut for claiming Ants and I were on different teams, and me for claiming I was the witch, and HOLLY for agreeing with it. Ants could have spun it as a wolf plan to frame him. I don't know if it would have worked, but it would've been a show down. And more importantly, if Ants comes in and says "I'm the doctor", then shortkut, and I are WAY less blood bonded. I'm going to suspect he's lying a little bit more, and he's going to suspect I'm lying a little bit more. If nothing else, it's chaos.
the serial killer made himself extremely obviously an enemy of the town. and when pressed, refused to defend himself AT ALL other the. thst "the wolves want me dead". his lack of defense made it even more evident and the rest was normal. but here's the thing, the sk is as much an ally to the wolves as an enemy. the serial killer adds double the amount of kills to the night that are possible. admitting you're the sk is dumb, of course, but it's not a guaranteed wolf kill either. yet another case where I wanted defense, not a "100% true role claim."
Tommy's "mistakes" were talked about. he latched on to me too quickly, he INSISTED voting was the right move, but then backed off when confronted. and even then, no one could be sure. the fool is SUCH a disruptive role thst EVERYONE will be afraid to lynch. but it's also not a guaranteed "need to kill" from the wolves. becsuse if they can identify the fool (which ants did), the town will be WAY more apprehensive to lynch. so long as the wolves can prevent the fool from being lynched once they know who he is, then he is flat out an ally that AT BEST gives the wolves an additional night to make a move. I'm dying to try and be the fool. granted with my luck I'll get killed night 0 and never even get to make a play. I don't know exactly what id do with it, but I am excited to try and figure that out if I ever get to play it.
Alu played very well, I was "the right amount" of suspicious about him, he gave the wolves a reason to keep him alive while also trying to help announce his intentions. it's how I probably would have done things as well. in the end though, I DID fall on his side, I protected him in the final night phase to avoid something dirty happening with a frame job.
Ants was basically "free", a victim of a super unfortunate set of circumstances, so I can't claim he beat me or I beat him.
Kat was on my suspicion list not for any thing in the game, just for her being a smart player.
Killface was not on my radar as I just assumed he was genuinely busy, not just laying low.
Fire Queen I can't claim to have suspected prior to the Vash reveal, *but* when that day happened and no one knew which way was up, I did see markings from FQ that lead me to believe Vash was the one telling the truth.
Ryan I suspected off and on. first I was sold, then I had my doubts, then I made that long post last night and came to the conclusion that EVERYONE was telling the truth. (Ryan sort of was, he was a protector townie, even alu was telling the truth.) I didn't know for sure about him either way, but towards the end I leaned in favor of him being one of us.
Tommy I was suspicious of the moment he sided with me, and said as much. when he insisted on voting, I got more suspicious and said as much, when he CHANGED to abstain after confronted, I got even more suspicious. I can't claim I knew he was fool, I did not, but I had him on my "enemies" list for sure.
the wolves as a whole: aggression was the key. when we came up with the day 1 ring of protection? you should have taken the shot. yes, the medium may have revived one of us, but you needed to make the play. you still get 1 of the 2 kills guaranteed, and if the medium chooses to revive, the medium is now neutralized.
the seer should have role claimed a townie seer, and who could dispute them? either they feed a wolf to the town (a valid strategy, ants and the other guy may even remember that in the first game I had suggested feeding one of us to the town to reduce suspicion, I even toyed with the idea of them KILLING ME AT NIGHT). but conversely, they could have also insured the innocence of one townie. "I checked Cole last night, he definitely isn't evil". is it believable? may be not. BUT THATS THE POINT.
the wolf avenger did well, I'm not sure if the bodyguards protection would have saved Ryan in that instance if he was really the BG, but if it ignored Ryan's extra layer, it's a great way to eliminate him.
I get it. shortkut and I set a pattern of events that was hard to overcome.
but there were outs, either the wolves were too busy IRL or paralyzed with indecision, but the game could have done differently.
it was a fun game, and maybe at some point I'll do another and see what happens.
I apologize to those (but one) that feel I "ruined their game" by role claiming, but it is part of any wolf game, especially this one.
I hope people generally had fun, even those that lost.
Some will be my choices in this game, and what I think others could have done to counter it.
Initially I didn't like how many roles were in this game, I don't feel like a game where EVERYONE has a role is very interesting on average. I also never like the games where all the wolves have roles. (Again, speaking for future games where I MIGHT POTENTIALLY BE A WOLF, or a townie without a role), I don't love that element of it. Whatever odds Zell has for wolf games, I trust, hes a math guy. But in my experience, wolf games are based in asymmetrical balance. The town has the numbers, but not the information. The wolves have no numbers, but they have all the information.
This game was slightly different, the Fool and the Serial Killer add another element that the wolves have to consider, that they don't have the information for, they almost have to work WITH the town to find these things.
I was initially confused on why Zell had that whole "extra roles" list of all the roles that might not be in the game but could have been. But as the game went on, I started to understand. Those roles were there PURELY for false role claiming. There are so many roles the wolves or SK could have claimed that we couldn't have proved otherwise. As Zell said, a wolf could have claimed they were the doctor, and what was Ryan gonna do? "Just kidding, I really am the doctor, this person is lying." Even if Ryan is telling the truth, HE CANT PROVE IT, and now we don't know who is who.
The extra roles were great, and I love the idea. I'd still rather not everyone have a role, but having a "pool" of roles that can be selected from at random is a great idea for balance, because then no one can definitively say "nah that ones me" (like what happened with Holly).
The days and nights were too long, but I really liked Zells addition to add an option to skip, in the future, I think thats a great idea. With everyone being adults with complicated lives, I think LONG day and nights are a must have to make sure everyone can find time to play. But there needs to be some kinda safety net, especially in the late game, where people can be like "yeah, we know what to do, lets just get to the next phase." That was good.
The chronology of night events needs a little work, and Zell agreed. They can't be straight chronological because lives, time zones, it just isn't fair. Once he explained that some acts were always at the end, and that townies kind of "came first", it was more okay. But what I suggested (I believe publicly) was a sort of... priority queue listed in the rules. It doesn't matter WHEN someone sends their actions, but each role has a priority as to who acts first. (For example) the doctors protection is always the first action considered, any kills on his target after that are irrelevant. The wolves always go very last, after all other decisions are factored. Then maybe the witch is later in the night, not a guaranteed protection or kill depending on who is targetted, etc. Lay it out in the rules so you know "if you're a the medium, and the serial killer targets you AND the witch protects you, you die. The serial killers actions take place before the witch." Not only does it eliminate the issue of time zones and schedules, but it also adds a layer to what can and can't be discussed in the thread.
In day 1, we laid out exactly what was going to happen, and it didn't overly matter because the serial killer or wolves couldn't "get their kill in before the protection took place", well I propose it's more laid out.
role claiming: in *THIS* particular game, its pretty much a game element and I think it worked fine as such. There were plenty of ways to check validity of peoples role claims, there were extra roles you could have used to divert suspicion or any combination. Could it be modified? Sure. there could be some sort of restriction on role claiming, like "you have to have one vote on you before you can role claim" or something, but I don't even think it's necessary. Role claiming is a risk, good or bad, and thats part of the game.
Outside of game discussion: this one is the definition of contention and I get why people are conflicted. For me personally, if this was a "real town" and I had reasonable suspciion shortkut was the detective, I'm gonna sneak off with him at some point to strategize, we're not just gonna discuss it in front of everyone. Its h arder because we can't "monitor" PMs, but we're working on an honor system. I have like 6 of th e people from this game on other platforms I could've talked to them even if we didnt wanna use PM.
So if we're gonna use the honor system, why not do it anyway? Dont share screenshots of role PMs, don't talk during the night, whatever else we have to do insure that out of thread discussion is still in the SPIRIT of the game.
My quoting of Zells PM. If there's ONE THING I will grant that was on the "slightly shadier" side, it was quoting Zells PM. Firstly: when I first posted it, I did not say it was verbatim, I just put it in quotes, but phrased it as that's what I was informed. The only people that would have ever known about it is myself, Zell, and if there was another potential witch. It wasn't against the rules, but I can see where people would feel like it bordered on "the spirit of the game", but regardless. It happened to work out as Holly was a witch and DID catch it, and then Zell inadvertently confirmed by banning it moving forward. It wasn't against the rules hwen I did it, and I didn't do it in a way that like "proved I was right", for all anyone knew prior to Holly announcing it, I could've been talking out of my ass. It definitely SHOULD be banned (or at least mitigated by less specific DMs) in the future, of course.
the fool is a great role, and I'll give more on this for this specific game, but having a role this disruptive is great.
I HATE the idea of the berserker wolf. every play in this game should have a counter play, and there is no counter play to a super kill that is a guaranteed success. especially when it could take out a multitude of townies at once given the right set of events.
the shaman wolf is great, and even when not used is enough of a threat to question the facts even when a seer identifies a bad guy.
I feel like I had other things to bring up in terms of consistency, but my mind is going blank.
As far as how this game lined up, Im gonna repeat myself on some things, but whatever.
I had told Zell in PM after he gave me my role I didn't plan on role claiming. I'm not a huge fan of it, at least not without a purpose. It belongs in the game, but that I didn't wanna do it "for nothing."
But when the game started, I was also having a conversation in the old thread with Kat about how minimally I lie, she identified a few things I lied about, and I came up with a gameplan for this game. Not just honesty, but disclosure. I don't *think* lied at any point in this game (there were a couple of times typing long posts that I zoned out on and I wasn't as careful to include everything).
And I also decided, "alright, lets just claim my role right now, no ones gonna believe it anyway, so why not". Figured at the very least, me getting wolf mauled night 1 would be amusing.
Every other role reveal from that point forward, I never *forced* anyone to do it, even if that was how it appeared. I said several times "lie, tell the truth, do both", I just wanted people to tell me stories. I wanted people to defend being accused however they wanted to.
Ryan took this perfectly, he FALSE role claimed to cover his high value townie role.
Holly was "basically" forced into it, because she made a mistake about how many witches their could be, and without admitting the truth, she likely would have erroneously died.
The SK from this game, Tommy, Ants, Alu, Vash, ANYONE else I encouraged to talk, look back, I encouraged you to TELL A STORY, not to tell me what you were. Part of the fun of these games for *me* is deciphering lie from truth, it's my specialty, and I wanted to see who could sell me. I pushed for people to just feed me whatever they wanted and I'd see if I could pick apart the threads, but no one wanted to play ball. the Serial Killer, Tommy, Ants, they were all enemies and I guess didn't want to FALSE role claim, and instead got a little heated that they thought I was asking them to tell us which enemy they were. I was not. That's fucking boring as SHIT. I was encouraging them to give me reason to doubt the story. Ants role claiming on day 1 with a false unverfiable role claim could have spiraled this entire game out of control. It would have cast suspicion on shortkut for claiming Ants and I were on different teams, and me for claiming I was the witch, and HOLLY for agreeing with it. Ants could have spun it as a wolf plan to frame him. I don't know if it would have worked, but it would've been a show down. And more importantly, if Ants comes in and says "I'm the doctor", then shortkut, and I are WAY less blood bonded. I'm going to suspect he's lying a little bit more, and he's going to suspect I'm lying a little bit more. If nothing else, it's chaos.
the serial killer made himself extremely obviously an enemy of the town. and when pressed, refused to defend himself AT ALL other the. thst "the wolves want me dead". his lack of defense made it even more evident and the rest was normal. but here's the thing, the sk is as much an ally to the wolves as an enemy. the serial killer adds double the amount of kills to the night that are possible. admitting you're the sk is dumb, of course, but it's not a guaranteed wolf kill either. yet another case where I wanted defense, not a "100% true role claim."
Tommy's "mistakes" were talked about. he latched on to me too quickly, he INSISTED voting was the right move, but then backed off when confronted. and even then, no one could be sure. the fool is SUCH a disruptive role thst EVERYONE will be afraid to lynch. but it's also not a guaranteed "need to kill" from the wolves. becsuse if they can identify the fool (which ants did), the town will be WAY more apprehensive to lynch. so long as the wolves can prevent the fool from being lynched once they know who he is, then he is flat out an ally that AT BEST gives the wolves an additional night to make a move. I'm dying to try and be the fool. granted with my luck I'll get killed night 0 and never even get to make a play. I don't know exactly what id do with it, but I am excited to try and figure that out if I ever get to play it.
Alu played very well, I was "the right amount" of suspicious about him, he gave the wolves a reason to keep him alive while also trying to help announce his intentions. it's how I probably would have done things as well. in the end though, I DID fall on his side, I protected him in the final night phase to avoid something dirty happening with a frame job.
Ants was basically "free", a victim of a super unfortunate set of circumstances, so I can't claim he beat me or I beat him.
Kat was on my suspicion list not for any thing in the game, just for her being a smart player.
Killface was not on my radar as I just assumed he was genuinely busy, not just laying low.
Fire Queen I can't claim to have suspected prior to the Vash reveal, *but* when that day happened and no one knew which way was up, I did see markings from FQ that lead me to believe Vash was the one telling the truth.
Ryan I suspected off and on. first I was sold, then I had my doubts, then I made that long post last night and came to the conclusion that EVERYONE was telling the truth. (Ryan sort of was, he was a protector townie, even alu was telling the truth.) I didn't know for sure about him either way, but towards the end I leaned in favor of him being one of us.
Tommy I was suspicious of the moment he sided with me, and said as much. when he insisted on voting, I got more suspicious and said as much, when he CHANGED to abstain after confronted, I got even more suspicious. I can't claim I knew he was fool, I did not, but I had him on my "enemies" list for sure.
the wolves as a whole: aggression was the key. when we came up with the day 1 ring of protection? you should have taken the shot. yes, the medium may have revived one of us, but you needed to make the play. you still get 1 of the 2 kills guaranteed, and if the medium chooses to revive, the medium is now neutralized.
the seer should have role claimed a townie seer, and who could dispute them? either they feed a wolf to the town (a valid strategy, ants and the other guy may even remember that in the first game I had suggested feeding one of us to the town to reduce suspicion, I even toyed with the idea of them KILLING ME AT NIGHT). but conversely, they could have also insured the innocence of one townie. "I checked Cole last night, he definitely isn't evil". is it believable? may be not. BUT THATS THE POINT.
the wolf avenger did well, I'm not sure if the bodyguards protection would have saved Ryan in that instance if he was really the BG, but if it ignored Ryan's extra layer, it's a great way to eliminate him.
I get it. shortkut and I set a pattern of events that was hard to overcome.
but there were outs, either the wolves were too busy IRL or paralyzed with indecision, but the game could have done differently.
it was a fun game, and maybe at some point I'll do another and see what happens.
I apologize to those (but one) that feel I "ruined their game" by role claiming, but it is part of any wolf game, especially this one.
I hope people generally had fun, even those that lost.
no you didn't. I was hoping if there WAS another witch they wouldn't announce it, and just use it to realize I was their ally and play it in secret, but you didn't ruin anything and don't let anyone tell you different.
wolf is a WHOLE nother animal, especially in a game like this. In zells type of game, you NEED to be willing to take huge risks. make the play and deal with the aftermath. not wait for the "right moment"
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I appreciate your overall writeup, it was very well done and I agree with it.
Just wanted to thank you for this. I didn't have a role I could verify in any way other than being killed, so I just had to do my best with convincing everyone that I was worth keeping around "for now" - enough suspicion from the town so the wolves would consider me an easy target in the future (looks like they were trying for that by shamaning me on the last real night), but also not so suspicious that the town would consider me for a prime lynching target. If I failed at one of those, I was hoping that I wouldn't come across as suspicious enough so the wolves would come and I'd be able to give away a free kill the next day.
It was certainly an interesting role to get though...it almost felt as though I was roleless for the majority of the game to be honest.
edit: oh, and if anyone was curious as to why I didn't fully role claim: the Tough Guy would have been the exact one I'd expect a wolf to try to claim. There's no way to prove it yourself without the wolves taking action against you, and the wolves wouldn't do that because it would be a free trade of a wolf for a townie. So it likely would have resulted in being shamaned and investigated earlier and with ME getting a bullet from the gunner. Once a legit accusation came like that I would have been a goner. Leaving it open to being any of the roles left open the "he might be able to prove this by some method" later.
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Man, Tommy role claiming Tough Guy may have won him the game.
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As it is, your role claim of the body guard did a number to help the town.
But yeah, that's the point. Role claiming in a game like this just adds to the chaos, especially if you claim a role that's hard to prove. Almost any of the optional roles fall into the bucket of not being able to prove it directly.
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I did try to role claim the fool, it’s just that one’s tricky to role claim because it’s counteractive for that particular role to let people know who you are. Which I realized meant death by potion instead of lynching, but I had zero confidence in persuading everybody, I was on a time constraint that Sunday, and also I was SO FOCUSED on just not getting lynched so that I could buy my team just one more use of my ability, that that was enough of a win for me.
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I thought you were wolf or flower child
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Yup - again. A wolf claiming almost any of the optional roles could have done a number, especially the protection roles (because then the wolves would just not maul the person he "protected")
you hinted it, not role claimed.
you can't role claim as an enemy and hope to be successful, right move was full false claim of a townie. it would have made everyone second guess the plans.
which (cough) is what I've been saying all along INCLUDING in the thread. false role claiming IS role claiming and I wanted people to fight.
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Flower child would have been essentially useless in this game other than the same talking points I was already giving. It was actually tough having a somewhat low power role, and like I said it felt like I was the only person who was just a regular townie in the game.
but here's the thing.
you were dead either way, right? at least that's what I was telling you. if you are going to die anyhow, that's the time you lie. if we lynch you? yeah, you don't get to use your ability again. but if you can spin a valuable enough tale, maybe it gives us enough of a pause to hold off.
that's how you used the fool to get a stay of execution, same could have been true by role claiming something unreliable.
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Yes, but I really felt that you are just way too good at sussing that out, as is Ryan.
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I mean, I thought Jawneh was a Wolf. Clearly I misread.
ill take the compliment, but it's never an exact science. wolf tends to almost be a survivorship bias type deal. people remember the times I made this grand plan as wolf and dominated, or sussed out every bad guy
but they forget the times I've been wrong, or randomly night killed, or missed every suspect.
maybe I'd have sussed it out again, that is true. but if I did, so? you were dying any way. if I don't? maybe you live.
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I mean was there any reason to truly believe shortkut until day 2 proved out to be accurate? Well, I mean if Ants had claimed to be the doctor or something. Only Cole and Holly would have been able to prove who they were (and mostly just to each other). At that point it would have been a "is shortkut actually the detective or is he trying to play us to kill the actual doctor" - would have made the call to believe him a lot harder.
(but either way, without the gunner day shooting and revealing early in the game, you likely would have been safe until that night)
(but either way, without the gunner day shooting and revealing early in the game, you likely would have been safe until that night)
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So, I’ve grazed this thread a little bit. But haven’t read the whole thing. This was my first game that I’ve done in a VERY long time. (Thanks Zell for setting it up).
Admittedly, I was not active on on Sunday and was absolutely swamped with things at home.
I think Cole said that we needed to be more aggressive. Which I can agree with. I think some of us (me) that were inexperienced did not want to pull the trigger on a big move. It was discussed to use the berserk to kill one of you and also get Ryan! But I think we backed down when we realized Ryan! (who we thought was BG) would get revived with full health/both hits.
I think I tried to integrate back into the game, but did want to lay low. Day 2 onward I was more active in the PM’s, and thought that laying low was a good play. Looking at the comments, and seeing how role claiming is a big part of this game, I probably would have done things different. (Maybe not be a wolf).
I think Kat was having computer/phone issues on the final day (Dean kill) was all me. I panicked and did not make the best move available. By that time, everyone pointed fingers at both Kat and I after my goof.
I did have fun though! I really am sorry that I was not active. I thought that would have been key. Perhaps that’s the inexperience talking.
Maybe I’ll play the second game?
Admittedly, I was not active on on Sunday and was absolutely swamped with things at home.
I think Cole said that we needed to be more aggressive. Which I can agree with. I think some of us (me) that were inexperienced did not want to pull the trigger on a big move. It was discussed to use the berserk to kill one of you and also get Ryan! But I think we backed down when we realized Ryan! (who we thought was BG) would get revived with full health/both hits.
I think I tried to integrate back into the game, but did want to lay low. Day 2 onward I was more active in the PM’s, and thought that laying low was a good play. Looking at the comments, and seeing how role claiming is a big part of this game, I probably would have done things different. (Maybe not be a wolf).
I think Kat was having computer/phone issues on the final day (Dean kill) was all me. I panicked and did not make the best move available. By that time, everyone pointed fingers at both Kat and I after my goof.
I did have fun though! I really am sorry that I was not active. I thought that would have been key. Perhaps that’s the inexperience talking.
Maybe I’ll play the second game?
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Every game is a good learning experience, and it looks like you took in some good tips!
Join in on more games with us all, please!
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After reading all the feedback, I'm pretty sure I never even considered false role claiming out of fear the Holly/Cole scenario would happen to me in the wrong way. Knowing this now, that is so dumb, and I can see how I barely tried in this game lmao. I don't really think the role claiming is bad in any instance anymore, I think I just severely overestimated my skill at this game. I thought my role was impossible (my last post alive details this) but I realize all the things I could have done now. I totally gave up too easily.
That being said, this is kind of how I applied logic in the game. I thought voting first day was a good idea, it was not, I changed my mind. Same with the role claiming now. I see how I put myself at a disadvantage by not coming up with a quick solution. I will be better next time! Always learning.
That being said, this is kind of how I applied logic in the game. I thought voting first day was a good idea, it was not, I changed my mind. Same with the role claiming now. I see how I put myself at a disadvantage by not coming up with a quick solution. I will be better next time! Always learning.
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Always good to know where you stand
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I was hoping one of the Wolves would claim Doctor so I could find reasons to sus them out without hopefully giving anything away.
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See? Protecting you was clearly the best play. Even if I initially thought you were lying about being the Witch. I also thought it was weird no one targeted you, as I thought I was supposed to be informed about it.
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If you don't die night 1 everyone will assume wolf and vote you day 2, obviously.
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I felt like I was finally starting to really get going and then got killed. Sucks. I didn't especially love my role, but it is what it is. I didn't want to role claim initially. Say what you will about that. I didn't have a reason to role claim. I wasn't especially pressed, my role wasn't valuable, and I felt like claiming I was the other random townie would either make me look suspicious or make Alu look suspicious, and I didn't want one of us to be killed, even though Alu was never someone I 100% trusted in the game. By the time I targeted Kat, it was too late. I'm hoping to be more active in the next game.
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Highly disagree. I had you pegged for a kill role and thought it would be highly valuable to keep you alive. It's why if FQ hadn't done what she did, you were going to be my night 3 protect. I thought Gunner, but your role functioned in essentially the same capacity.