Spiner Watches Old WWE PPVs

[Spiner202]

I recently subscribed to Sportsnet+ in Canada (don't ask), and it provides a random assortment of historical PPVs to watch. I think I've mentioned in other threads that my first exposure to wrestling was around 2002, so I'd see a lot of the PPVs from about that year until 2004 or so, as well as the occasional one from the Attitude Era. I'm planning to watch everything that this service has - somewhat in order (but I may deviate as I get bored). Below is a screenshot with what is available - hopefully they add more over time. Things in green are ones I've already finished watching (ignore the months; they're not 100% accurate, but were used as a way for me to ensure I'm watching in order):



In this thread, I'll comment with some random thoughts as I work my way through these, but not necessarily on each PPV. Please try to keep future PPV's spoiler-free

My thoughts today are essentially that wrestling had a rough time during this era. Wrestlemania 1 was entertaining for the sheer spectacle of it all. I loved how they just had a random WWE person sing the anthem, rather than getting a celebrity. It's pretty clear early on that Hogan is the best they have; not necessarily as a wrestler, but he cuts the best promos and has the most excitement around his matches. I'm not sure if there was truly a good match on either of the first two Wrestlemanias, but starting with the third one, Ricky Steamboat vs. Randy Savage was excellent. Survivor Series 1987 didn't do much for me, and the first Royal Rumble in 1988 was pretty rough as well.

I love the commentary team of Gorilla Monsoon and Jesse Ventura. They speak in such a hilarious way. By contrast, I didn't love McMahon/Ventura on Royal Rumble 1988. They felt too adversarial (even though I know a lot of wrestling commentary works that way).

I skipped ahead to Wrestlemania 18 because I wanted to see Rock vs. Hogan and it was awesome. There's something special about having a crowd that is so into a match. In any case, I'm sure this will take me years to complete, but I'm looking forward to the adventure, because I have a lot to catch up on!

 

[Webster]

My thoughts today are essentially that wrestling had a rough time during this era.

I remember that period of wrestling (I assume the reference to the first WM places the tyime in question to the mid/late 80s) and it was rough. Once VKM took over the then-WWF, left the NWA and began conquering other territories you could see from 35,000 feet where the endpoint was going to be...

Unfortunately, many of the promoters at the time (Jim Crockett, Bill Watts, Verne Gagne, etc) either were too pigheaded to work together or thought that the NWA (which was descending into its' own shadow at the time) would themselves stop Vince McMahon.

That said, there was a lot of good wrestling back then; you just had to really really look for it.

 

[Spiner202]

Yeah other than the fact that the quality of the wrestling isn't that high, it just feels like a very unrefined product. I'm about halfway through Wrestlemania 4, and it's tough to follow why a match ends sometimes by DQ or countout. There was one match where somebody kicked out long before the ref counted to 3, but they called the match anyways.

I'm sure they're trying to create a storyline where someone got screwed out of a match, but I feel like the modern era has much better mechanisms to achieve that.

I cannot wait until I hit a point where Bret Hart moves into the main event and the Undertaker debuts. The former is someone I've heard so much about, but he feels reigned in as part of the Hart Foundation in the PPV's I've seen, and the latter would be one of the first instances of a wrestler I watched growing up (I guess technically Hogan was around at the time, but it wasn't quite the same).

 

[Webster]

Yeah other than the fact that the quality of the wrestling isn't that high, it just feels like a very unrefined product. I'm about halfway through Wrestlemania 4, and it's tough to follow why a match ends sometimes by DQ or countout. There was one match where somebody kicked out long before the ref counted to 3, but they called the match anyways.

The one match of that period that comes to mind was Hogan-Andre at WM3.

The match itself wasn't very good...the reason its' still considered one of the great 80's matches was the months-long buildup to it: could Hogan be the first to press and bodyslam the Giant? (nevermind that Andre had allowed other wrestlers to do that ) Everyone wondered whether Hogan could do that and when he did? That's when the crowd erupted at what they were seeing; VKM had them eating out of the WWF's hand that night,

 

[Spiner202]

Took me a few days but I finished Wrestlemania 4. It definitely benefits from splitting up into separate viewings - there were 16 matches on the card, and most of them were fairly mediocre. Despite that, I thought the main event was pretty good. It's nice to see someone new crowned champion, and while I understand the political side of Hogan being around in the main event, if you watch wrestling purely without thinking about how something makes someone look weak or strong, it's a pretty entertaining match.

 

[Spiner202]

Near the end of Summerslam 1988 and my two takeaways are that (1) Superstar Billy Graham is a wild listen on commentary and (2) The Ultimate Warrior really likes drugs. Seriously his match with the Honky Tonk Man and subsequent promo is a sight to behold.

 

[Webster]

The Ultimate Warrior really likes drugs. Seriously his match with the Honky Tonk Man and subsequent promo is a sight to behold.

*makes note to watch*

 

[Spiner202]

It really is incredible how many of these old PPV's have the exact same ending - Hogan is victorious and spends minutes in the ring flexing to Real American.

I get it - he was the most over guy they had, and to be honest, it's pretty epic, but I feel like I've seen it happen more times than not at this point.

On another note, I'm really enjoying the Hogan/Macho Man feud. Without the context of all the shows in between PPVs, it can be a bit hard to get invested in each storyline, but the Hogan/Macho Man one is done pretty well.

 

[Webster]

the Honky Tonk Man

Funny thing about his gimmick there, Spiner: when he debuted as the Honky Tonk Man, the gimmick was supposed to get him over as a face but the fans hated it in an X-Pac, GTFO kind of way.

Nowadays, VKM and Company would continue pushing him as a face; back then, though, Vince McMahon had a little bit of common sense and they decided to run with it and played Honky Tonk up as a heel.

The result? One of the better heel gimmicks of the late 80's/early 90's and, at that time, the longest-ever reign as Intercontinental Champion (since eclipsed by Gunther).

 

[Spiner202]

Funny thing about his gimmick there, Spiner: when he debuted as the Honky Tonk Man, the gimmick was supposed to get him over as a face but the fans hated it in an X-Pac, GTFO kind of way.

Nowadays, VKM and Company would continue pushing him as a face; back then, though, Vince McMahon had a little bit of common sense and they decided to run with it and played Honky Tonk up as a heel.

The result? One of the better heel gimmicks of the late 80's/early 90's and, at that time, the longest-ever reign as Intercontinental Champion (since eclipsed by Gunther).

I didn't love him at first, but he's starting to grow on me. In general, I feel like the product has improved a lot between 1985 and where I am now in 1989. The wrestling is still a lot worse than today, but it has improved and the product as a TV show is also getting more refined. Also, for better or worse, I think in the early Wrestlemania days, there were a lot of wrestlers that just weren't cut out for TV, and by 1989, there were tons of more gimmicky guys that play well on TV.

I also updated the OP with a more current screenshot. They added a ton of Survivor Series PPV's that were previously missing, so those are on my list now too! Hopefully they add some of the Royal Rumbles in January, because I have a feeling that it being November was the catalyst for getting all of these Survivor Series' added!

 

[Webster]

n general, I feel like the product has improved a lot between 1985 and where I am now in 1989.

I remember a lot of the wrestling from that period (WWF, NWA, WCW-pre Bischoff, etc) and there was a lot of good wrestling, it just wasn't on TV a whole lot (WWF, by my recollection, had a weekly national show on Saturdays on NBC of all places, while both the NWA and WCW were on Ted Turner's TBS Superstation during the week). Every other promotion was still mainly local airings, which allowed both McMahon and Atlanta to begin hoovering up other territories (not the promotions per se', just the territories they covered) with increasing speed.

 

[Spiner202]

I'm towards the end of Summerslam 1990 now. A few more thoughts:

Despite what a terrible person he was, The Ultimate Warrior is just pure fun. The guy's music hypes me up every time, and he just has so much intensity that it's something amazing to watch.

The audio is actually messed up on a bunch of these PPVs. There are several of them where you can barely hear the commentary, but you can't turn the volume up because the ring/crowd noise is at a normal volume. Summerslam 1990 is an even more egregious offender because they do pre-match interviews with one of the wrestlers while the other is in the ring, and they keep the music playing of the guy who is in the ring at a volume that exceeds the interview volume. At least most of the other shows sorted out the promo volume, even if the commentary was messed up. It doesn't make them unwatchable, but it's definitely a bit disappointing, and I hope it doesn't continue into the JR days.

Also, the next PPV on the list after this one is Survivor Series 1990, and I believe that's where Undertaker shows up for the first time

 

[Webster]

Despite what a terrible person he was, The Ultimate Warrior is just pure fun.

The Ultimate Warrior, Spiner, is one of the ultimate mysteries (pardon the expression there, ...) of the wrestling business. I once referred to him as one of the two most controversial wrestlers to ever work in the business (the other one, by the way, is Chris Benoit) and there's a bunch of reasons, both in and out of the ring, for that...

-Warrior was one of the worst in-ring workers to ever step inside the ring, period. He just was; for instance, Harley Race said he didn't know the difference btwn a wristlock from a wristwatch. He was rude to fans, something a lot of wrestlers have commented on (Arn Anderson, Ted DiBiase, Hacksaw Jim Duggan, Bobby Heenan - who also suffered a broken neck from a botched Warrior move) - and so on.
-He couldn't carry a match any length of time; despite being taught by Rick Rude how to carry matches of up to 20 minutes, Warrior's average match went about as long as the typical Goldberg (or nowadays Ryback) match
-Post wrestling, the man was straight-up homophobic; he did a speech at UConn back in 2005 that got shut down for being just over the top homophobic...

Ultimate Warrior's speech nearly triggers university riot

THE WARRIOR ATTACKS The Ultimate Warrior gave a speech infront of University of Connecticut students last night that almost broke out into a riot. Major arguments broke out after many considered Warrior's thoughts to be homophobic and racist. People started yelling at Warrior as he...

www.neogaf.com

-He also flat out robbed Vince McMahon into giving him a contract raise and, going from a lot of the above individuals thoughts, was really only in the business for money.

That said, he got over with the fans so...

 

[Spiner202]

The problem is that almost everyone involved in wrestling prior to the last decade or so was a terrible person. Granted, there are varying levels of terribleness, and arguably, Ultimate Warrior is worse than most of his peers. It takes a certain level of cognitive dissonance to enjoy wrestling, and I'd say the same thing about football (which I also love).

As for his wrestling skills, I agree that he's worse than most of these guys in the ring, but I do think he has gotten marginally better over time (I'm currently into 1991), and I think his sheer energy elevates him above the majority of other workers. It's like when Hogan starts to "Hulk up". It's not very technically impressive, but it still gets me hyped up. I guess I'm not particularly sophisticated when it comes to wrestling

Edit: I forgot to mention that I would love a few modern WWE characters who cut promos the way they did back then: just non-stop yelling. I think it'd be a hilarious contrast to today.

 

[Webster]

and I think his sheer energy elevates him above the majority of other workers.

That was his saving grace, Spiner: the man practically invented the style of wrestling later popularized by both Goldberg and Ryback.

 

[Spiner202]

I'm currently on Summerslam 1992. From what I've read, a ton of big name WWE guys left after this PPV.

Wrestlemania 8 (the one I watched before this) was quite interesting. I read a thread on reddit that sort of explained how they missed out on a lot of key matchups and why, but the first 3 matches including Shawn Michaels as a singles wrestler, the Undertaker, and Bret Hart as a singles wrestler made it feel much more interesting. For better or worse, every PPV has 4-5 guys I like (Hulk, Macho Man, Ultimate Warrior, etc.) and most of the undercard does little for me. Having these 3 guys - especially as singles wrestlers - makes for a much deeper and more enjoyable show.

I imagine it will get worse before it gets better based on everyone leaving soon after this, but I was surprised to find Wrestlemania 8 to be one of my favourite PPVs so far.

 

[Spiner202]

Ok I just started Wrestlemania IX (moving a bit slower at Christmas-time, as I can't watch 3 times a day when I'm staying with family), and I am so thrilled to see that Jim Ross has arrived! Granted, he sounds a bit different here than the voice we remember, but I'm glad to know he'll be with me for the next 20-some years.

Also, this Wrestlemania is the weirdest thing I've ever seen. I'm not even at a match yet but they seem to be leaning hard into this Caesar's Palace theme.

 

[Webster]

and I am so thrilled to see that Jim Ross has arrived!

As Bobby Heenan is to wrestling managers, Jim Ross is one of those once-in-a-lifetime talents that you could never hope to replace, you can only hope to learn from. The fact that he's still going strong nowadays is testament to that.

 

[Spiner202]

It really is incredible how many of these old PPV's have the exact same ending - Hogan is victorious and spends minutes in the ring flexing to Real American.

Ok I think Wrestlemania IX might be the most egregious instance of this. Hogan has a tag match with Brutus The Barber Beefcake against Ted Dibiase and IRS midway through the card. Later on, he is seen backstage talking about the upcoming title match between Bret Hart and Yokozuna.

In the main event, Yokozuna beats Bret Hart to win the WWF title after flinging some sand in Bret's face. Hogan runs to the ring to the aid of Bret Hart after the match. Then, Mr. Fuji and Yokozuna offer Hogan the chance to fight Yokozuna for the belt right now. Hogan does his 3 moves of doom, and all of a sudden becomes the WWF champion and once again, spends minutes in the ring flexing to Real American.

 

[Webster]

In the main event, Bret Hart beats Yokozuna to win the WWF title after flinging some sand in Bret's face. Hogan runs to the ring to the aid of Bret Hart after the match. Then, Mr. Fuji and Yokozuna offer Hogan the chance to fight Yokozuna for the belt right now. Hogan does his 3 moves of doom, and all of a sudden becomes the WWF champion and once again, spends minutes in the ring flexing to Real American.

And then he goes over to WCW and does pretty much the same thing, then to TNA/Impact and does it yet again, etc., etc.

 

[Spiner202]

Not sure where else to post this, but I'll do it here since this thread is basically my ramblings on wrestling.

Last night I went to the WWE Holiday Live tour. This was my first live wrestling since Summerslam 2004 (I think?)

The matches were pretty awesome. I think we got about 10 of them. I think for most of the crowd, the highlight was Sami Zayn vs. Finn Balor in a Last Man Standing match. Honestly, I think the best match might have been the opener: Becky Lynch vs. Zoey Stark. Pretty much all of them were great though.

On another note, wrestling fans are even trashier than I imagined. I honestly cannot imagine these people living in civilized society (granted, with the state of society today there might be a bit of a correlation there).

 

[Spiner202]

I'm a couple of years further along now - just finished Wrestlemania XI.

My first thought is that the Bam Bam Bigelow vs. Lawrence Taylor match was not only legitimately good, but better than half of the matches from this era. There were a couple of moments where it was faltering, but overall a really entertaining match.

As for some other topics of this era:

• Bob Backlund vs. Bret Hart submission match was not only a bad match, but a truly strange outcome. Backlund was ok in promos as a heel, but this was very strange, especially when you compare it to the current era where belts never change hands
• Bret Hart is probably the best "worker" of this era, but he sits at #2 or #3 for me. Shawn Michaels is, without question, the most entertaining wrestler of this era. Everything from the way he sells other people's moves, to the way he carries himself and his interviews - he's just the most complete wrestler. I'd probably put the Undertaker at #2 just because I really love watching him.
  • I think the other advantage Shawn has is that he's largely in the Intercontinental scene during this time, which had better opponents than the main event scene, which was often confused. For one thing, Razor Ramon is amazing (the Wrestlemania X ladder match was probably the best match of this era so far) and him always being around the title was also great
• This seemed to be the era of guys getting massive pushes and then randomly disappearing. Lex Luger came and went insanely fast. Yokozuna was great at first, but increasingly looks out of shape with each subsequent PPV. It feels like whenever they ran out of ideas, they just asked the Undertaker to fill the gap (hence the Undertaker vs Undertaker match).
• Their other idea was just to have Bret Hart wrestle as many times as he can in one night. It works, but it shows you how thin the roster is.
• I actually like Diesel. My understanding is that he wasn't enjoyed that much until he went to WCW, but I think his initial role as Michaels' bodyguard was good, and he's reasonably talented in the ring. The only thing I don't like about him is his theme music, which is amongst the worst out there.

My understanding is that 1995 features the debuts of Triple H, Stone Cold, and others. I know they don't start out the same way that they got popular, but much like the greater visibility for Bret/Shawn/Taker in 1990, I'm expecting this to make these shows even better!

 

[Webster]

You're gonna love the mid/late 1990's, @Spiner202 - that six year period btwn 1996 and 2001 is simply the best period of wrestling ever and more so given the malaise the business was in pre-1996 but it would've never happened without one prior event....

The Curtain Call.

=== === ===

TL/DR: Following a match at Madison Square Garden, Kevin Nash & Scott Hall (Diesel & Razor Ramon) went out to the ring in a farewell embrace with fellow members of the Kliq Triple H, Sean Waltman and Shawn Michaels. Since this was (for the period) a major break with the all-but-dead notions of kayfabe, someone had to take the fall.

It wouldn't be Nash or Hall as they were leaving for WCW.
Sean Waltman was innocent as he had no knowledge of what was happening.
Shawn Michaels was WWF world champion and couldn't be punished.

So Triple H, was was scheduled to win the 1996 King of the Ring PPV, was punished and his spot as winner there....was given to the then-Ringmaster, Steve Austin, who took that gift and became Stone Cold Steve Austin, punctuated by his iconic words,

"You sit there and you thump your bible, and you say your prayers, and it didn't get you anywhere! Talk about your psalms, talk about John 3:16 — Austin 3:16 says 'I JUST WHIPPED YOUR ASS!'"

=== === ===

Those two events are what give us the Attitude Era, but SCSA doesn't get his push had the Curtain Call not taken place; how different the business of wrestling would be but for that, Spiner.

 

[VashTheStampede]

I'm a couple of years further along now - just finished Wrestlemania XI.

My first thought is that the Bam Bam Bigelow vs. Lawrence Taylor match was not only legitimately good, but better than half of the matches from this era. There were a couple of moments where it was faltering, but overall a really entertaining match.

As for some other topics of this era:

• Bob Backlund vs. Bret Hart submission match was not only a bad match, but a truly strange outcome. Backlund was ok in promos as a heel, but this was very strange, especially when you compare it to the current era where belts never change hands
• Bret Hart is probably the best "worker" of this era, but he sits at #2 or #3 for me. Shawn Michaels is, without question, the most entertaining wrestler of this era. Everything from the way he sells other people's moves, to the way he carries himself and his interviews - he's just the most complete wrestler. I'd probably put the Undertaker at #2 just because I really love watching him.
  • I think the other advantage Shawn has is that he's largely in the Intercontinental scene during this time, which had better opponents than the main event scene, which was often confused. For one thing, Razor Ramon is amazing (the Wrestlemania X ladder match was probably the best match of this era so far) and him always being around the title was also great
• This seemed to be the era of guys getting massive pushes and then randomly disappearing. Lex Luger came and went insanely fast. Yokozuna was great at first, but increasingly looks out of shape with each subsequent PPV. It feels like whenever they ran out of ideas, they just asked the Undertaker to fill the gap (hence the Undertaker vs Undertaker match).
• Their other idea was just to have Bret Hart wrestle as many times as he can in one night. It works, but it shows you how thin the roster is.
• I actually like Diesel. My understanding is that he wasn't enjoyed that much until he went to WCW, but I think his initial role as Michaels' bodyguard was good, and he's reasonably talented in the ring. The only thing I don't like about him is his theme music, which is amongst the worst out there.

My understanding is that 1995 features the debuts of Triple H, Stone Cold, and others. I know they don't start out the same way that they got popular, but much like the greater visibility for Bret/Shawn/Taker in 1990, I'm expecting this to make these shows even better!

I LOVE that LT/ Bam Bam match.

Bam Bam is one of the most underrated workers of all time

 

[Spiner202]

Just popping in to say that I'm watching Survivor Series 1995 and this is the first Goldust sighting and his entrance was outstanding. I've only ever seen him as a more established character, so it's fascinating to see him closer to the start of his career where there's a bit more of an aura around him.

 

[VashTheStampede]

Early Goldust is some top tier sports entertainment. Dustin absolutely owned that role.

 

[Spiner202]

I'm part way through Wrestlemania XII and the quality just keeps improving.

Goldust and Roddy Piper had the most brutal looking street fight I've ever seen. It appears to be ongoing though because they keep getting audio and video cuts over top of other matches to keep us updated. Then, I finally saw my first glimpse of Stone Cold. Because I don't have access to the Royal Rumble 1996, I missed the whole Ringmaster phase, so he's at the start of his Stone Cold run here.

Then there's the infamous Hunter Hearst Helmsley vs. Ultimate Warrior match. Firstly, this version of HHH is great. He plays it so well. Obviously he got better once he lost this gimmick, but I think he's hilarious like this.

As for the match itself, I was familiar with Warrior no-selling the pedigree, but honestly, having watched as much of the Warrior as I have, this went like every other one of his matches. I guess you can be upset that the older guy didn't put over the younger one, but I'm not sure what anyone would expect in a match with the Warrior. Especially in 1996 where he's no longer a headliner because now he can work a 5-minute squash match, rather than a 15-minute match where he can't keep up.

I'm just starting Undertaker vs. Diesel, and hopefully this ends up being Taker's first good Wrestlemania match. At least it's his first one against a big name opponent (I feel like Jake was closer to the end of his run than the beginning when Taker faced him).

 

[Webster]

Then, I finally saw my first glimpse of Stone Cold. Because I don't have access to the Royal Rumble 1996, I missed the whole Ringmaster phase, so he's at the start of his Stone Cold run here.

This gives a pretty decent background on Austin's early years up to the 1996 KotR when he defeated Jake 'the Snake' Roberts for the title but the Stone Cold persona first debuted agst. Savio Vega in early March 1996 and by his win agst. Roberts he would fully cement it (and yes, he did beat Triple H on the way to that title).

What made Austin's gimmick work, Spiner, was that it wasn't a typical heel gimmick. Yeah, he was the supposed bad guy beating the babyface Roberts and mocking him for both his religion and his substance issues but when the crowd pops the way they did that night for him, there's no way in hell a promoter is going to keep him as a heel.

That night, Austin became the prototype for the anti-hero wrestler, the type you should boo but depending on the circumstances (such as when Austin would constantly square off agst. Vince McMahon in his Mr. McMahon persona) you're gonna cheer him.

 

[Spiner202]

That was a great watch - thanks for posting it. I was waiting until I finished the KOTR 1996 to watch it. It's interesting because during his promo, you can kind of see him getting a more positive response than he was expecting.

 

[Webster]

That was a great watch - thanks for posting it. I was waiting until I finished the KOTR 1996 to watch it. It's interesting because during his promo, you can kind of see him getting a more positive response than he was expecting.

Yeah, that audience when Austin did his Austin 3:16 promo, partly because it wasn't quite what they expected the winner to say (after all, he was ripping on a legend like Jake Roberts) and partly because it was a direct "F--- you!" towards Roberts' gimmick of being a born-again Christian and playing the John 3:16 route and Austin wasn't letting him get away with it and I believe the crow popped for that reason more than anything.

 

[Webster]

Bumping @Spiner202's PPV thread so it doesn't disappear off the first page...

 

[Spiner202]

I've held off posting for a bit, but I've continued watching. I'm currently in the middle of Summerslam 2000. A few thoughts on the Attitude Era:

-I think this era was really characterized by TV more than PPVs. I say this because I can only watch select PPVs and feel like I'm missing tons of the biggest moments. The Stone Cold vs. McMahon feud was barely a thing based on what I saw, even though it was probably the basis for the Attitude Era. Same thing with the Taker/Kane feud. The promo package before Wrestlemania 14 was awesome, but I feel like I saw none of their interactions (especially since Kane's inaugural appearance is on a PPV not available to me).
-I'm enjoying 2000 on the whole more than 1998/1999 because the lower/midcard is way better. All 3 years ruled at the top (though the matches themselves were pretty hit or miss), but in 2000, there were a lot of the guys I grew up watching (Eddie, Kurt, Big Show, etc.). The earlier years have guys that just didn't resonate with me at all. Also, the tag team division was in full force by 2000. Which leads to my next point:
-The ladder match at Wrestlemania 16 between the Hardy's/Dudleyz/E&C is probably the best match of this era (so far). Either that or Taker/Mankind HIAC. I know there are a couple of TLC matches coming up soon, so I'm excited to keep watching these 3 tag teams
-Chyna is awesome, especially as Intercontinental Champion. I understand why men don't wrestle women anymore, but Chyna is very much how I imagine Rhea Ripley could be if/when she drops the Women's belt

There's probably more I could say, but I probably should have posted more frequently as I was watching.

 

[Webster]

The Stone Cold vs. McMahon feud

Jim Ross: "Stone Cold shakin' hands with Satan himself!"

 

[Quagmire]

I've thought about going back and trying to watch old PPVs are just watching the old attitude era, that is the era I grew up with and have nostalgia for

 

[Spiner202]

I just finished Survivor Series 2001. When you only watch the big PPVs, the Invasion Angle doesn't seem too bad. I think Heyman is way better on commentary than Lawler, and some matches were really fun (though in hindsight, a lot of the Invasion guys were also WWE guys, but when you're 20+ years removed from that and not invested in WCW or ECW at all, it doesn't seem so bad).

I have already seen Wrestlemania 18 but I'm going to watch it again now that it's a bit more in context, and also, it is sometimes seen as the end of the Attitude Era. Also, I don't think you can tire of Hogan vs. Rock.

A few thoughts as I conclude the Attitude Era. I said this above, but watching big PPVs really doesn't capture the Attitude Era appropriately. There are tons of great matches, but there's a lot of bad stuff. I feel like I missed a lot of the absurdity of the era, and obviously you don't see any of the Monday Night Wars.

One observation I had about women in the Attitude Era - obviously they spent a lot of time degrading and objectifying them. Actual wrestling was quite limited. But when you watch these specific PPVs, it's interesting how it goes from Sunny and Sable being huge attractions, to Chyna fighting the men, to women disappearing altogether until they return almost exclusively as managers. Even when Lita/Trish showed up, they didn't do a ton of wrestling outside of Survivor Series 2001 (though I get the impression they were more active on TV and got shafted for PPVs). My initial bout with the WWE was during the Ruthless Aggression era, so I'm quite familiar with some of the terrible things they had the women do during that era, but I just thought it was an interesting observation that it didn't seem that consistent during these 4-5 years. Maybe put another way: they had 2-3 stars and once they lost them, they did nothing with the women until they built up a few more.

My top 5 matches of the AE:
1. Wrestlemania 17 - TLC 2
2. Wrestlemania 16 - Dudleyz vs. Hardyz vs. E&C Ladder match
3. KOTR 1998 - Undertaker vs. Mankind HIAC
4. Wrestlemania 17 - Rock vs. Austin
5. Summerslam 2000 - TLC 1

Maybe it's a bit absurd to put those 3 tag teams in my list 3 times, but those were the guys that got me hooked on wrestling. Despite saying that, here are my top 5 wrestlers of the AE:

1. Triple H
2. Stone Cold
3. The Rock
4. Kurt Angle
5. Mankind

It's hard to rank because the Attitude Era really feels like 3 different eras. Even if you say it starts at Survivor Series 97, 1996 onwards fits in with the arrival of Mankind and Stone Cold, Taker finally getting into good feuds, Sunny showing up, and just a general increase in intensity. I feel like this lasts until about 1999. 2000 sees Triple H taking over (IMO) and a whole arrival of all-time great wrestlers. Arguably 2001 is different due to so many injuries and the Invasion, but it's all still about the Rock/Austin/Angle/Kane/Taker. It hurts me to leave Kane and Undertaker off my top 5 list, because they're both all-time favourites, but it just shows how talented the roster was at this point.

 

[Webster]

Even when Lita/Trish showed up

Even then they played up the sexiness angles (especially w/Lita, who practically got run out of town following the angle w/her and Edge screwing over Matt Hardy) and downgraded women's wrestling across the board.

 

[Webster]

the Invasion Angle doesn't seem too bad.

TV Tropes said it best about the Invasion angle...

the most infamous was squandering millions and millions of dollars on The InVasion Angle to humiliate his old rivals, all because he could not accept that a rival promotion had stood its ground against him, and UPN execs were so disillusioned by the WCW brand's hemorrhage of money in its dying days (this page will go into what they did to deserve that, we assure you) that they were all too happy to oblige. These things cost him millions; if he had put ego and pride aside and convinced the Network he could harness the WCW that kicked his ass for over a year, the Invasion would have rolled on for multiple years, making all parties money hand over fist. It cannot be overstated how much of a license to print money that angle was.

 

[Spiner202]

One other thought now that I'm done with Wrestlemania 18 (and posting in the correct thread this time!): is this the furthest away Stone Cold has been from the main event at a show since Wrestlemania 14? Seriously, I can't remember another PPV I've watched where he wasn't injured and not in the main event. Not only was he not the main event here, he wasn't even in one of the top two matches on the card.

If I am recalling correctly, he leaves the WWE shortly after this until Mania 19?

 

[MC74]

One other thought now that I'm done with Wrestlemania 18 (and posting in the correct thread this time!): is this the furthest away Stone Cold has been from the main event at a show since Wrestlemania 14? Seriously, I can't remember another PPV I've watched where he wasn't injured and not in the main event. Not only was he not the main event here, he wasn't even in one of the top two matches on the card.

If I am recalling correctly, he leaves the WWE shortly after this until Mania 19?

Yeah, he first no-showed the RAW after Mania in Montreal. He did sign with RAW on April 1st and was in a feud with Flair & the nWo for a bit. It was around that time he voiced his frustrations with creative, but the straw that broke the camel's back came when he was booked to lose a KOTR qualifying match against Brock Lesnar. Not only because Austin felt that having him lose on RAW like that made him look weak, but also because there was no build for the match itself, which I can understand where he's coming from. If you're gonna have a rookie like Lesnar go over someone of Austin's magnitude, you better fucking build that match.

He then walked out of the company until they agreed to come to terms in February 2003. Austin returned following the segment Vince booked Eric Bischoff in a match against him, which happened after the show went off the air, but his official live return happened in Montreal at No Way Out 2003.

 

[Spiner202]

I finished Summerslam 2002 and that was a truly excellent PPV. 3 all-time great matches: Rey Mysterio vs. Kurt Angle, The Rock vs. Brock Lesnar, and Shawn Michaels vs. Triple H. It was great to see Michaels back in action, and this was also the first Mysterio sighting so far. While Rey is looking a little old these days, his younger years were something amazing to watch.

Up next is Survivor Series 2002. This is possibly the most nostalgic PPV for me. I started watching WWE sometime in early 2003 (not exactly sure when), but my parents bought my brother and I the DVD for this PPV, so I've seen it a bunch of times. I probably haven't seen it in its entirety in over 15 years though, so I'm excited to see if it coasts off just the Elimination Chamber match, or if it was great from start to finish.

 

[MC74]

I finished Summerslam 2002 and that was a truly excellent PPV. 3 all-time great matches: Rey Mysterio vs. Kurt Angle, The Rock vs. Brock Lesnar, and Shawn Michaels vs. Triple H. It was great to see Michaels back in action, and this was also the first Mysterio sighting so far. While Rey is looking a little old these days, his younger years were something amazing to watch.

Up next is Survivor Series 2002. This is possibly the most nostalgic PPV for me. I started watching WWE sometime in early 2003 (not exactly sure when), but my parents bought my brother and I the DVD for this PPV, so I've seen it a bunch of times. I probably haven't seen it in its entirety in over 15 years though, so I'm excited to see if it coasts off just the Elimination Chamber match, or if it was great from start to finish.

There's a reason why Summerslam 2002 was considered by many as the best Summerslam in WWE history. A stacked card where just about every match delivered and then some.

 

[Webster]

A stacked card where just about every match delivered and then some.

Agreed; every match on that card was top-notch.

 

[Webster]

*continues* And there were two signature matches that night (@Spiner202 brushed on one of them earlier)....per the Tropes,

2002: Brock Lesnar winning the WWE Title or Shawn Michaels wrestling his first match after a 4-year hiatus.

By the way, if you thought Michaels' 2002 match was awesome Spiner, wait 'til the 2005 match HBK had with Hulk Hogan....Jerry Lawler said it best that night,

"I think that Shawn's psychology is a little off so far..."

 

[Spiner202]

,By the way, if you thought Michaels' 2002 match was awesome Spiner, wait 'til the 2005 match HBK had with Hulk Hogan....Jerry Lawler said it best that night,

I have heard great things about that match and seen some clips, so I am excited to get there.

Somehow, I finished Survivor Series 2002 today. This was another incredible PPV. The opening tag trio elimination tables match was crazy. Any match involving some combination of the Hardys and Dudley's always delivers. The Lesnar/Big Show match was way shorter than I remembered, but still was so memorable. The hardcore match between Trish and Victoria was actually super brutal. Crazy to think that Trish wasn't even a wrestler a few years before that. And the Elimination Chamber match was as great as I remembered.

Also, while I'm by no means a butt rock fan, I think Saliva's Always is probably the single best PPV song. Its use in the pre-match promo for the Elimination Chamber is unbeatable, and they played it in the background at several points in the show, and it just goes so hard.

 

[Spiner202]

Also, forgot to ask: at what point did everyone here stop following WWE? I don't think anyone here is current with it, but I presume most of you guys dropped off sometime between 2001 and the end of the Ruthless Aggression era.

 

[rktaker]

Also, forgot to ask: at what point did everyone here stop following WWE? I don't think anyone here is current with it, but I presume most of you guys dropped off sometime between 2001 and the end of the Ruthless Aggression era.

I keep up with current things but I don't watch it as I watch AEW and indie wrestling instead, stopped watching WWE in 2021 when Vince took over booking NXT and turned it into 2.0

 

[Webster]

Crazy to think that Trish wasn't even a wrestler a few years before that.

Trish Stratus is one of the few wrestlers (the Miz being another) who weren't trained wrestlers when they entered the business (Trish had been a model, Miz came from reality TV) who were trained how to work in the ring, trained to do promos, etc., and have become stars within the business (especially Trish because between her and Lita, they carried the Divas' in most of the 2000's).

Also, forgot to ask: at what point did everyone here stop following WWE? I don't think anyone here is current with it, but I presume most of you guys dropped off sometime between 2001 and the end of the Ruthless Aggression era.

Twice; first after Stone Cold left in the mid-2000's and then after Punk left in 2014.

 

[Spiner202]

Just finished Wrestlemania 19 and that was definitely one of the best PPVs so far. My experience watching this live as a kid was strange. My family was on vacation in Florida, and the only place we could watch the PPV that we knew of was at Hooters. My 9-year old self was fully focused on the wrestling though. Also, I woke up in the middle of the night that evening and threw up due to undercooked chicken. I am proud to say that was my one and only experience at Hooters.

This time around, the PPV really holds up. The best match is definitely Angle vs. Lesnar, but I really enjoyed the street fight between Hogan and McMahon (even if it's hard to watch McMahon these days, it is easy to watch him get beat up). The Triple H/Booker T match was actually really good, but the ending made no sense. It's sort of weird how, once again, Undertaker's booking is underwhelming and makes no sense. In any case, this marks the era where I fully watched WWE, so even though I don't have access to every PPV from this era, I am expecting them to be very enjoyable.

I keep up with current things but I don't watch it as I watch AEW and indie wrestling instead, stopped watching WWE in 2021 when Vince took over booking NXT and turned it into 2.0

Shawn Michaels is running NXT now and it's arguably the best show. I'd definitely give it another shot again

 

[rktaker]

Shawn Michaels is running NXT now and it's arguably the best show. I'd definitely give it another shot again

eh, 2.0 really left a bad taste in my mouth and even though Shawn is booking it there's still a lot of wrestlers from 2.0 and I just don't really care about anyone on the roster, the only ones that I really have interest in are recent signees in Brogan Finlay, Jay Malachi, and Lucky Ali.

 

[MC74]

Also, forgot to ask: at what point did everyone here stop following WWE? I don't think anyone here is current with it, but I presume most of you guys dropped off sometime between 2001 and the end of the Ruthless Aggression era.

The product started trending downwards from mid 2008-onwards, but the decline for my interest started in 2010. That was such a rough time for WWE. In a span of a year, they lost HBK, HHH, Batista, Undertaker, and Edge as full-time wrestlers.

Didn't help matters that the product they were pushing out wasn't as good either, not to mention this is around the time the SuperCena era was in full swing, which brought on a lot of cringe-inducing content.

But it was 2012 when I stopped watching it weekly completely. The shit they pulled to have Cena vs Rock: Twice in a Lifetime was the final straw for me. The moment when Rock announced on the 1000 episode of RAW he was challenging for the title at the 2013 Royal Rumble, you knew damn well where they were going. Rock was winning the title from Punk at the Rumble and Cena was going to win the event so he could get his win back.