Why George R. R. Martin hasn't finished ASoIaF yet.

[Ants!]

The last few remarks made by him about the Winds of Winder have been about two years of almost no progress, and saying he's really struggling with finishing it, to most recently expressing worries about not being able to finish before he dies. It's been over a decade since Dance with Dragons. So what gives?

Well, I might be able to offer some insight, as I've been aspiring to write my own fantasy series. I've had the idea since I was still in high school about twenty five years ago. When covid happened, I finally felt motivated to put in real and serious work on it, so I've spent the last three or four years researching and studying the craft, reading books on writing fiction, and I'm about a third of the way into writing only the first draft of the third book in my planned trilogy.

I know, I know. What has that to do with G.R.R.Martin? Well, I can share with yall some things I've learned about writing these types of books, both from my personal experiences and what I've read from the opinions of lots of different famous authors on the subject, and combine that with the statements Martin himself has made.

First major point: everyone is different, and authors are no exception. They all fall somewhere on a spectrum. On one extreme end of that spectrum are the architects: they have the book (or books) all planned out before they even write any of it. They have an outline with varying degrees of detail. Changes and new details may come to them as they write and revise, but they have a pretty solid idea of where they're going with it as well as the path to get there. The other extreme end of the spectrum are the gardeners: they don't really have a plan, or at most a very vague sense of a possible ending, but for the most part they have an idea that intrigues them and they just start writing and see where it takes them.

Stephen King is probably the most famous example of the gardener type. Before he had completed his Dark Tower series, he had fans asking him how it's going to end because they were going to die soon. One was an old woman with failing health, another was a man on death row. And he had to tell each of them that unfortunately he can't do that for them even if he wants to, because he doesn't know the ending. In his book "On Writing", he likens the process to being an archeologist that's excavating a skeleton or an ancient piece of pottery: the author doesn't know what they're going to unearth beneath the surface until they spend some time chiseling away at it.

I myself am probably a hybrid of both types, but probably fall a lot more heavily on the architect end of the spectrum. It has its advantages and disadvantages: I'm much less prone to writers block, but at a cost because I feel that I will never have as powerful a voice or imagination as some of the greats, the majority of whom fall more on the gardener side of things.

In a recent interview, Martin described himself as the gardener type. That explains both the brilliance of his work, and also the corner he's written himself into.

So that brings us to the second major point: the scope of the story has become too broad to manage and keep track of. Think about the sizes of the books as they progress. Book two was bigger than book one. Book three was HUGE. And then the next two books were originally going to be one book but he had to split it into two volumes because it really had become that massive (and even after doing so, Dance with Dragons was almost as big as Storm of Swords).

I know I'm an unproven, unpublished amateur, and I'm not trying to compare myself to them in that way. But I am serious about writing these books and have put in real work on them over three or four years now and have the first drafts of two books complete. Martin has five out of seven books written, and a gap of 13 years (and growing) between now when Dance with Dragons released. And despite my much smaller scale and timeline, with meticulous notes in Evernote to refer back to, I still find myself having to keep track of all my various plots and subplots. And when I go back to review an earlier chapter from book 1 or even book 2, I'm surprised to realize just how many minor or minor-ish characters that I completely forgot about and have been quietly absent from the story (but hey, that's what the revision process is for).

Now take A Song of Ice and Fire. I'll try to illustrate my point. Here's the beginning of A Game of Thrones, beginning a branching plot tree with new plots constantly splitting off or entering the story.



Starts out simple. But every new character and development is another thing to keep track of. ASoIaF had seven kingdoms. Each kingdom has dozens of family names. Each family name has dozens of individual names, and relations between them. And not just in present time, but also the histories going back hundreds or even thousands of years. And that's just Westeros, there's still Essos and a few other island nations to keep track of. Every character has an age, a physical description, a personality, a relation with other characters in the story, their own motivations, and so on. And with each book he just makes more and more. For every plot line that gets resolved, two or three new ones develop. So that by Dance with Dragons, the plot tree looks more similar to this:



So by the end of the seventh book, it'll probably look even worse than this:



What's my point? I guess only to try to shed some light on it, and also help others to understand just why it's taking so long for him to finish and how the work has really got away from him, to the point where he'd rather make shows and prequels because he has such a behemoth on his hands and unless you actually attempt to write something, it's hard to accurately appreciate just what a daunting task it is.

 

[Benzine]

nah it's just cause he's a lazy cunt

 

[shortkut]

nah it's just cause he's a lazy cunt

This is probably the correct answer. Also with the royalties from the tv shows he doesn’t need to finish it for the money

The Wheel of Time series features over 2,700 named characters and around 148 distinct points of view throughout the story, and Robert Jordan still had a good grasp on where the story was going and had enough notes for Brandon Sanderson to finish it.

 

[Ants!]

This is probably the correct answer. Also with the royalties from the tv shows he doesn’t need to finish it for the money

The Wheel of Time series features over 2,700 named characters and around 148 distinct points of view throughout the story, and Robert Jordan still had a good grasp on where the story was going and had enough notes for Brandon Sanderson to finish it.

But still he DIDN'T finish it, and also like I said, people are different from each other. We tap into our creative talent in different ways. Mentioning Wheel of Time just further proves my point.

 

[Ants!]

Also, the man's mental health is literally being effected by this, and he's stressed about it and worried about his legacy after visiting Tolkien's gravesite and seeing all the loving devotions left by fans. That doesn't sound like somebody motivated by money to me, because you can't take it with you. That doesn't sound like a lazy person either.

But if you really feel that way, go try to write even just one full-length novel or a series that's even a fraction of the scope and get back to us.

 

[Quagmire]

But still he DIDN'T finish it, and also like I said, people are different from each other. We tap into our creative talent in different ways. Mentioning Wheel of Time just further proves my point.

He didnt finish it because he died or was dying right?

I get the whole gardener vs planner, but GRRM has also been avoiding it, writing other things, being stuck in his ways and only writing on his home computer, and the worse being the false promises, the lock me up if not finished by X date. He does himself no favors because he wont stop talking about it, he has gotten better about it.

If he wrote on average one page a day he'd be done with both TWOW and ADOS, that would be over 4k pages

He isnt a fast writer and I dont think he cares enough about it, or he cares so much he stopped trying to make it look like he doesnt care

 

[dimmerwit]

I'm not surprised that someone who is workshopping eight TV series isn't making any real progress with the book. I mean, this is literally what he said was the cause a few weeks ago.

I also think it's a Half Life 3 situation where he's intimidated by huge expectations, especially since the show's ending was garbage.

 

[Ants!]

I understand disappointment and frustration as a fan as well as anybody else, but let's not get in denial that writers block is a very real thing.

I'm also wondering if maybe people's reactions to the last few seasons of the show gives him pause, that he sees how high people's expectations are and that he might feel like anything less than perfection isn't good enough.

Which brings me to another point that all the great authors do agree on: no matter how good you are, or how much experience you have at writing, you never do get rid of that little critical voice in your head that keeps telling you "this is crap".

Again: writers block is a very real thing, and all the right ingredients are there for him to have a massive case of it: he's a gardener, the scope has grown to a massive size, and fans are overly critical and demand perfection.

I don't think it's fair or justified to throw these aspersions at him that he's lazy or doesn't care or isn't motivated because of money.

I'll give it to you that the false promises is a good point though, and a valid criticism. Don't make promises you can't keep and don't draw lines in the sand like that. But there his fault isn't in not keeping the promises, but in having made them in the first place. That was dumb.

 

[Ants!]

I'm not surprised that someone who is workshopping eight TV series isn't making any real progress with the book. I mean, this is literally what he said was the cause a few weeks ago.

I also think it's a Half Life 3 situation where he's intimidated by huge expectations, especially since the show's ending was garbage.

Simultaneous post lol. I was thinking much the same thing.

I guess I also understand about the side projects because I'm going through a similar thing. For my own project book three is seeing much slower progress compared to the first two, and lately instead of writing new chapters I've been going back and filling out its backstory and history as little prequel stories. Such a thing is good because these types of epics require a lot of world-building and because some fans are really into that sort of thing (The Silmarillion remains my favorite story ever written). But it also becomes a sort of curse when its there as a convenient distraction at a time when it becomes hard to focus and finish.

 

[Quagmire]

I also think it's a Half Life 3 situation where he's intimidated by huge expectations, especially since the show's ending was garbage.

The actual ending plot points are mostly fine, it was just how the show rushed it and tried to hide a certain character that was the issue

If he thought it was poorly done it is his chance to redo it and fix it

 

[Ants!]

That's true, but let's not forget that the show had the benefit of being able to condense big parts of the story and eliminate entire plots and characters or merge them together for the sake of limited screen time. Now that I've read the books I'm seeing just how much the show was allowed to leave out. With the last two books he doesn't have that advantage, and it's also going in a pretty different direction than the show because of it. Some important characters who are alive either died or don't exist on the show, and some characters who died in the books survived on the show. Not sure how much of a guide the show could be for him at this point. It did give him some valuable feedback on what not to do, but very little on what TO do. That's got to be tough.

 

[Mark]

The last few remarks made by him about the Winds of Winder have been about two years of almost no progress, and saying he's really struggling with finishing it, to most recently expressing worries about not being able to finish before he dies. It's been over a decade since Dance with Dragons. So what gives?

Well, I might be able to offer some insight, as I've been aspiring to write my own fantasy series. I've had the idea since I was still in high school about twenty five years ago. When covid happened, I finally felt motivated to put in real and serious work on it, so I've spent the last three or four years researching and studying the craft, reading books on writing fiction, and I'm about a third of the way into writing only the first draft of the third book in my planned trilogy.

I know, I know. What has that to do with G.R.R.Martin? Well, I can share with yall some things I've learned about writing these types of books, both from my personal experiences and what I've read from the opinions of lots of different famous authors on the subject, and combine that with the statements Martin himself has made.

First major point: everyone is different, and authors are no exception. They all fall somewhere on a spectrum. On one extreme end of that spectrum are the architects: they have the book (or books) all planned out before they even write any of it. They have an outline with varying degrees of detail. Changes and new details may come to them as they write and revise, but they have a pretty solid idea of where they're going with it as well as the path to get there. The other extreme end of the spectrum are the gardeners: they don't really have a plan, or at most a very vague sense of a possible ending, but for the most part they have an idea that intrigues them and they just start writing and see where it takes them.

Stephen King is probably the most famous example of the gardener type. Before he had completed his Dark Tower series, he had fans asking him how it's going to end because they were going to die soon. One was an old woman with failing health, another was a man on death row. And he had to tell each of them that unfortunately he can't do that for them even if he wants to, because he doesn't know the ending. In his book "On Writing", he likens the process to being an archeologist that's excavating a skeleton or an ancient piece of pottery: the author doesn't know what they're going to unearth beneath the surface until they spend some time chiseling away at it.

I myself am probably a hybrid of both types, but probably fall a lot more heavily on the architect end of the spectrum. It has its advantages and disadvantages: I'm much less prone to writers block, but at a cost because I feel that I will never have as powerful a voice or imagination as some of the greats, the majority of whom fall more on the gardener side of things.

In a recent interview, Martin described himself as the gardener type. That explains both the brilliance of his work, and also the corner he's written himself into.

So that brings us to the second major point: the scope of the story has become too broad to manage and keep track of. Think about the sizes of the books as they progress. Book two was bigger than book one. Book three was HUGE. And then the next two books were originally going to be one book but he had to split it into two volumes because it really had become that massive (and even after doing so, Dance with Dragons was almost as big as Storm of Swords).

I know I'm an unproven, unpublished amateur, and I'm not trying to compare myself to them in that way. But I am serious about writing these books and have put in real work on them over three or four years now and have the first drafts of two books complete. Martin has five out of seven books written, and a gap of 13 years (and growing) between now when Dance with Dragons released. And despite my much smaller scale and timeline, with meticulous notes in Evernote to refer back to, I still find myself having to keep track of all my various plots and subplots. And when I go back to review an earlier chapter from book 1 or even book 2, I'm surprised to realize just how many minor or minor-ish characters that I completely forgot about and have been quietly absent from the story (but hey, that's what the revision process is for).

Now take A Song of Ice and Fire. I'll try to illustrate my point. Here's the beginning of A Game of Thrones, beginning a branching plot tree with new plots constantly splitting off or entering the story.

View attachment 21225

Starts out simple. But every new character and development is another thing to keep track of. ASoIaF had seven kingdoms. Each kingdom has dozens of family names. Each family name has dozens of individual names, and relations between them. And not just in present time, but also the histories going back hundreds or even thousands of years. And that's just Westeros, there's still Essos and a few other island nations to keep track of. Every character has an age, a physical description, a personality, a relation with other characters in the story, their own motivations, and so on. And with each book he just makes more and more. For every plot line that gets resolved, two or three new ones develop. So that by Dance with Dragons, the plot tree looks more similar to this:

View attachment 21226

So by the end of the seventh book, it'll probably look even worse than this:

View attachment 21227

What's my point? I guess only to try to shed some light on it, and also help others to understand just why it's taking so long for him to finish and how the work has really got away from him, to the point where he'd rather make shows and prequels because he has such a behemoth on his hands and unless you actually attempt to write something, it's hard to accurately appreciate just what a daunting task it is.

Hell of a read, it definitely got me to try to place myself in the mind of a writer and connect points I don't really consider when I sink an hour or so per episode of a book series I've never read.

He didnt finish it because he died or was dying right?

I get the whole gardener vs planner, but GRRM has also been avoiding it, writing other things, being stuck in his ways and only writing on his home computer, and the worse being the false promises, the lock me up if not finished by X date. He does himself no favors because he wont stop talking about it, he has gotten better about it.

If he wrote on average one page a day he'd be done with both TWOW and ADOS, that would be over 4k pages

He isnt a fast writer and I dont think he cares enough about it, or he cares so much he stopped trying to make it look like he doesnt care

Think of musicians in that respect, then. If you get stuck on a particular verse or riff, it’s not uncommon at all to walk away from it and revisit it at another point, even after working on other pieces. Forcing the creative process by saying “I need to finish this by this date” replaces creativity energy with urgency, and whatever you’re making… whether it’s a song, a book, a painting, or anything else, will end up suffering in the end. There are countless examples of this strewn across the creative world, hell, even video games suffer the same fate when they’re rushed.

 

[Quagmire]

@Mark

I 100% understand writers block, but he's also clearly not putting in fulk effort. Refuses to write anywhere but home. So anytime he's doing tours or meeting with TV execs he can't make any progress

 

[Mark]

@Mark

I 100% understand writers block, but he's also clearly not putting in fulk effort. Refuses to write anywhere but home. So anytime he's doing tours or meeting with TV execs he can't make any progress

That reminds me of a story I read about Buckethead, a guitar virtuoso. Years ago, he was tapped to replace SLASH in Guns ‘N Roses. The band was already years into the attempted recording phase for “Chinese Democracy” where Axl Rose was practically the only consistent member of the band. Anyway… replacing Slash isn’t an easy feat, so they went through a list of potential candidates and landed on Buckethead. Now, when you’re called in to play guitar for one of the biggest rock bands of the late 80’s and into the 90’s, to fill the position once held by one of the greatest modern guitarists alive, you’d think most people would just grab an axe and get to work. Nope. Not Buckhethead. He required that a chicken coop be built in the studio for him to play in. Why? That’s just his flavor of weird. It’s where he feels most comfortable in his craft to produce the most creative art that he can. It didn’t matter that he was opposite of Axl Rose, one of the most notoriously difficult musicians to work with. It didn’t matter that he was replacing one of the most soulful guitarists of his generation. It didn’t matter how many millions of fans were waiting for the release of the album. He needed what he needed to create.

Y’all could be right about him being lazy. He could come right out and admit it, and people would still eat the material up. The same popularity that made him complacent and functional at such a slow pace is the same popularity that forged the ego and sense of slow-cooking craftsmanship that has convinced him that this is the way he’s going to finish the story.

 

[Ants!]

Hell of a read, it definitely got me to try to place myself in the mind of a writer and connect points I don't really consider when I sink an hour or so per episode of a book series I've never read.



Think of musicians in that respect, then. If you get stuck on a particular verse or riff, it’s not uncommon at all to walk away from it and revisit it at another point, even after working on other pieces. Forcing the creative process by saying “I need to finish this by this date” replaces creativity energy with urgency, and whatever you’re making… whether it’s a song, a book, a painting, or anything else, will end up suffering in the end. There are countless examples of this strewn across the creative world, hell, even video games suffer the same fate when they’re rushed.

@Mark

I 100% understand writers block, but he's also clearly not putting in fulk effort. Refuses to write anywhere but home. So anytime he's doing tours or meeting with TV execs he can't make any progress

You both make great points. Mark is 100% right about pressure crushing the creative juices of the mind. That's why they recommend not trying to make a living as a writer until you're already pretty well established or have some other means of income, because it's just that much harder for your mind to find the muse when you're stressed about being homeless. Martin is established but the point Mark made about pressure is still true.

However Quagmire also has a good point and I'll give him that: you do have to eventually sit down and do the work. One author put it as "you're not going to find inspiration while playing video games." (Not shade against games, you can replace that with any other non-writing activity to make the point).

However from his remarks and how much work has been done on the book already, it also doesn't seem entirely fair that he's not trying. I don't think the man needs to put his entire life on hold because of it.

 

[Quagmire]

Y’all could be right about him being lazy. He could come right out and admit it, and people would still eat the material up. The same popularity that made him complacent and functional at such a slow pace is the same popularity that forged the ego and sense of slow-cooking craftsmanship that has convinced him that this is the way he’s going to finish the story.

I think he would get a lot more sympathy if he just came out and said he isnt sure he will finish it, he's lost desire in writing and wants to enjoy the rest of his years with his wife. If he rather write the Dunk and Egg novellas because they're shorter, self contained and dont have super deep plots, I would be okay with that.

I don't think the man needs to put his entire life on hold because of it.

I agree, but even at a slow pace he could easily have one book done and almost one if not finished with the other. And I do think authors do owe readers something, many fewer people and publishers would have picked up the series if he came out and said he probably wont finish it and will likely be 1 if not 2 books short and never finish it.

 

[Ants!]

I agree that authors owe the readers something, but your assessment of "just write one page a day" isn't really the whole picture. If you force yourself to churn out pages just for the sake of it, you'll end up with garbage like Mark said. If that's all there was to it, then yes he can easily finish it and quickly, though you'll hate the result.

Like I said, unless you sit down and actually attempt to do what they do, you can't understand what it's like. He doesn't want to just finish the books, he wants to make sure that what he writes is good enough. Especially after the hype the books have after this many years and the tv show.

He does need to sit down and work on it if he's ever going to finish, but it sounds like he's been doing that at least on some level.

 

[Quagmire]

I agree that authors owe the readers something, but your assessment of "just write one page a day" isn't really the whole picture. If you force yourself to churn out pages just for the sake of it, you'll end up with garbage like Mark said. If that's all there was to it, then yes he can easily finish it and quickly, though you'll hate the result.

Not so much a must do one a day, but more of just if he averaged 1 a day. It's a job and he doesnt approach it like one. Plenty of authors have talked about you just have to write, and even if it is garbage, you can either improve upon it or get your brain going and see where you should take the story.

I get he's put himself in a tough spot, he just needs to be more transparent and I think fans would back off. Scott Lynch has depression and anxiety, he's been very up front about it and fans for the most part seem to understand and accept it. Now his fanbase is no where near as big as GRRM's, but it would buy him a lot of good will I bet.

I've given up caring, even if he gets TWOW out, I dont think he'll he get the last book (or two books if he needs more, he's horrible at judging time and length needed)

 

[Ants!]

He actually does say that in his most recent remarks though.

 

[Mark]

Not so much a must do one a day, but more of just if he averaged 1 a day. It's a job and he doesnt approach it like one. Plenty of authors have talked about you just have to write, and even if it is garbage, you can either improve upon it or get your brain going and see where you should take the story.

I get he's put himself in a tough spot, he just needs to be more transparent and I think fans would back off. Scott Lynch has depression and anxiety, he's been very up front about it and fans for the most part seem to understand and accept it. Now his fanbase is no where near as big as GRRM's, but it would buy him a lot of good will I bet.

I've given up caring, even if he gets TWOW out, I dont think he'll he get the last book (or two books if he needs more, he's horrible at judging time and length needed)

As soon as you start approaching art as an occupation you begin to enter into that dangerous territory where suddenly your imagination is a tool and what you create is a commodity. I’ve seen everyone from craftsmen to musicians and tattoo artists end up in that position, all for the same reason. They focused on the business side of things and lost the visionary side in the process. It’s part of the reason why your favorite band seems to recreate what interested people in them in the first place, it’s the same reason your favorite show seems to stagnate with the same lather-rinse-repeat jokes and gags, and the list of examples goes on and on. It has to be a fine line between fostering creativity and maintaining a sustainable output for your business model if the end-game is creating something for people to consume.

 

[Quagmire]

One of the most commonly suggested ways to get around writers block is to just write.

I am not saying he needs a dead line, he can throw it out, send it to friends or editors to see if there is anything salvageable from it. I think his side projectesns can help, but his given style needs to write to work. Maybe he can make it work for another story or character or something, but at the end of the day he only writes in one place, so he can't commit to trying to get around the writers block consistently

 

[Benzine]

One of the most commonly suggested ways to get around writers block is to just write.

One of the hardest things to do in life is start. Just start wherever you can, it helps to get you going, and you can come back and fix up whatever travesty you inject first.

 

[Ants!]

That's true, but given the way the books turned out and his more recent comments and how much of Winds of Winter is done and how long it's been since Dance of Dragons, I'm thinking that he has at least been making an honest effort at it even if the fans don't see it that way.

 

[Kat]

IMO he's not that good of a writer and I don't even care if he finishes the series or not. I probably wouldn't read it even if he did (which he definitely won't). He needs a ruthless editor. All of the minor characters they left out of the show didn't add anything anyway.

He can't finish the story because he started a bazillion storylines that don't go together. There's so much going on that doesn't matter at all. Yeah, worldbuilding is important, and not everything has to directly drive the main story forward, but plotlines should serve some purpose. So many of his don't.

I feel like the "gardening" style doesn't work well with an epic series like this. The Dark Tower wasn't received well near the end either. I've read almost everything Stephen King has written, and I've not read any of those.

I'm sure it's hard for him and everything, but at some point he has to acknowledge what his priorities are. He is not prioritizing finishing this series. He has continuously made promises about how quickly the next book will be out and broken them in dramatic fashion, even before GoT was a show (Anybody remember an afterwards in one book "the next one is nearly done so it will be out really quick this time, pinky swear!!"? Then the next book came out like a fucking decade later.) Of course his fans are frustrated.

 

[Ants!]

I like, 90% agree with you

I'm a bit confused though how you haven't read any of his books but read an Afterwards in one of his books? I must be misunderstanding something.

I agree that he could have done well with an editor asking him to leave a lot of things out, and that a lot of the characters and plotlines are largely inconsequential. He could have written all of it for his own personal world-building to draw from if needed but not put every single thing into the published story.

That's one place where Wheel of Time is a pretty apt comparison. I loved those books but they had SO MUCH bloat that should have been left out.

There are maybe a handful of minor-ish characters that I feel left the show diminished without them but for the most part I agree.

 

[Ants!]

I should point out a weird tiff I have: I generally hate fandoms even when I love the same work as them. Wheel of Time? Love the books, hate the fans. Tolkien? Love his works, hate the fans.

I want to point out how the GoT show and the ASoIaF books did opposite things but fans still complain either way. The show finished in a timely fashion. The writers may have made a few choices I don't agree with and even found silly at times, but they finished despite having the daunting task of completing somebody elses work, a massive story with super high expectations that even the source material's own author can't seem to accomplish (because here we are a decade later talking about that). Still, fans bitched and moaned and whined about how bad they thought the ending was. Even though at least it gave them an ending and it pretty much worked out and resolved all its storylines.

The books, however, seem to at least maintain the level of quality they demand, and that probably also lead at least in part to Martin's hesitancy and intimidation after seeing the fans reaction to the show's conclusion. I'd be full of doubt too after that. So fans are now upset that the books are taking too long. So which is it? You want the story to hurry up and finish, or do you want it done well enough?

I'm reminded of Louis C.K.'s bit where he calls those types of people "non-contributing product-sponge cunts". And then also "well make your own, then. Get some hubcaps and climb some trees and see how close yours is to perfect."

 

[Quagmire]

IMO he's not that good of a writer

Them are fighting words

and I don't even care if he finishes the series or not. I probably wouldn't read it even if he did (which he definitely won't). He needs a ruthless editor. All of the minor characters they left out of the show didn't add anything anyway.

You get into this series knowing it is big and there are a lot of plots. Did he make it overly complicated for himself? Yes Would I read the series again if he finished it, 100%!

Also the last two books really do better when read combined as he originally meant it to be one book, it flows a lot better. These are slow burn series and after the 3rd book he basically started the act 1, 2 and 3 structure again

He can't finish the story because he started a bazillion storylines that don't go together. There's so much going on that doesn't matter at all. Yeah, worldbuilding is important, and not everything has to directly drive the main story forward, but plotlines should serve some purpose. So many of his don't.

The hardest thing was the planned time leap of like 5 years, it just doesnt work so he had to scrap it. I think things like (likely fake) Ageon would be good for reading and pushing the plot forward.

I feel like the "gardening" style doesn't work well with an epic series like this. The Dark Tower wasn't received well near the end either. I've read almost everything Stephen King has written, and I've not read any of those.

I loved the dark tower, the only book I didnt really like that much was the second to last. The last one is fantastic. The final battle is dumb as fuck, but where the story ends, it is wonderful

I'm sure it's hard for him and everything, but at some point he has to acknowledge what his priorities are. He is not prioritizing finishing this series. He has continuously made promises about how quickly the next book will be out and broken them in dramatic fashion, even before GoT was a show (Anybody remember an afterwards in one book "the next one is nearly done so it will be out really quick this time, pinky swear!!"

It was literally in the cover for AFFC, something along the lines "We'll join Jon and our other favorites in a year"

? Then the next book came out like a fucking decade later.) Of course his fans are frustrated.

Yep, though some of it is like we both pointed out, he isnt transparent about it

That's one place where Wheel of Time is a pretty apt comparison. I loved those books but they had SO MUCH bloat that should have been left out.

Ive never read them because it sounds more classical fantasy. I love the political nature of ASOIAF.

I should point out a weird tiff I have: I generally hate fandoms even when I love the same work as them. Wheel of Time? Love the books, hate the fans. Tolkien? Love his works, hate the fans.

Most fandoms can have very toxic fans, just look at Star Wars. Didnt know there were terrible Tolkien fans, but I dont like Lord of the Rings, so I dont engage with it

I want to point out how the GoT show and the ASoIaF books did opposite things but fans still complain either way. The show finished in a timely fashion.

It was rushed, HBO wanted to give them more episodes and seasons. It was rushed, timely is not what I would call it

Still, fans bitched and moaned and whined about how bad they thought the ending was. Even though at least it gave them an ending and it pretty much worked out and resolved all its storylines.

A lot of it was how we got there. D&D (the Show Runners) saying Dany forgot about the Iron Fleet or directly tried to subvert expectations. Hiding Bran and what he can really do just to wheel him out at the end was to shock fans. And dont get me started on how they butchered Jamie. The issue was the last two seasons were heavily Marvelized and they wanted to be done and move on to Star Wars. Should have handed it over to someone who wanted to do it

The books, however, seem to at least maintain the level of quality they demand, and that probably also lead at least in part to Martin's hesitancy and intimidation after seeing the fans reaction to the show's conclusion. I'd be full of doubt too after that.

Id be more pissed at how HBO handled it, but of course that is really on him for not finishing it

So fans are now upset that the books are taking too long. So which is it? You want the story to hurry up and finish, or do you want it done well enough?

I have no doubt if he actually committed himself to writing, had a laptop so he could write a little when going to Comic Cons or meeting with TV execs he could have finished TWOW by now.

I'm reminded of Louis C.K.'s bit where he calls those types of people "non-contributing product-sponge cunts". And then also "well make your own, then. Get some hubcaps and climb some trees and see how close yours is to perfect."

My response would be no one would have bought the first book if they were told if the series would not be finished and short 2-3 book nor would a publisher have picked it up. It goes back to Transparency and how poorly he's been at judging time. He makes it sound like he's close and then years pass. He's the writer who cried wolf.

If he lost the drive or passion for it, let us know, or maybe help someone else finish the book with your vision. If he wants to enjoy his pile of money, I dont blame him at all, but let people know and stop making stupid predictions, though I think he's stopped after the 2020 summer comic con comment, but I have also stopped paying attention to what he says

 

[Mark]

I should point out a weird tiff I have: I generally hate fandoms even when I love the same work as them. Wheel of Time? Love the books, hate the fans. Tolkien? Love his works, hate the fans.

It’s funny you say that, because I deliberately avoided GoT for years much for the same reason I avoided shows like Yellowstone, The Walking Dead, and Sons of Anarchy… the people who obsessed over the shows were insufferable. I had completely resigned myself to believe that GoT was exactly like South Park depicted… dragons, dicks, and drama.

 

[Ants!]

Them are fighting words




You get into this series knowing it is big and there are a lot of plots. Did he make it overly complicated for himself? Yes Would I read the series again if he finished it, 100%!

Also the last two books really do better when read combined as he originally meant it to be one book, it flows a lot better. These are slow burn series and after the 3rd book he basically started the act 1, 2 and 3 structure again


The hardest thing was the planned time leap of like 5 years, it just doesnt work so he had to scrap it. I think things like (likely fake) Ageon would be good for reading and pushing the plot forward.




I loved the dark tower, the only book I didnt really like that much was the second to last. The last one is fantastic. The final battle is dumb as fuck, but where the story ends, it is wonderful



It was literally in the cover for AFFC, something along the lines "We'll join Jon and our other favorites in a year"





Yep, though some of it is like we both pointed out, he isnt transparent about it



Ive never read them because it sounds more classical fantasy. I love the political nature of ASOIAF.



Most fandoms can have very toxic fans, just look at Star Wars. Didnt know there were terrible Tolkien fans, but I dont like Lord of the Rings, so I dont engage with it



It was rushed, HBO wanted to give them more episodes and seasons. It was rushed, timely is not what I would call it




A lot of it was how we got there. D&D (the Show Runners) saying Dany forgot about the Iron Fleet or directly tried to subvert expectations. Hiding Bran and what he can really do just to wheel him out at the end was to shock fans. And dont get me started on how they butchered Jamie. The issue was the last two seasons were heavily Marvelized and they wanted to be done and move on to Star Wars. Should have handed it over to someone who wanted to do it




Id be more pissed at how HBO handled it, but of course that is really on him for not finishing it



I have no doubt if he actually committed himself to writing, had a laptop so he could write a little when going to Comic Cons or meeting with TV execs he could have finished TWOW by now.




My response would be no one would have bought the first book if they were told if the series would not be finished and short 2-3 book nor would a publisher have picked it up. It goes back to Transparency and how poorly he's been at judging time. He makes it sound like he's close and then years pass. He's the writer who cried wolf.

If he lost the drive or passion for it, let us know, or maybe help someone else finish the book with your vision. If he wants to enjoy his pile of money, I dont blame him at all, but let people know and stop making stupid predictions, though I think he's stopped after the 2020 summer comic con comment, but I have also stopped paying attention to what he says

Fair points about the show, like I said I would have done things differently and they certainly could have done a lot better by not rushing it. Even so, I think they did mostly okay in at least finishing the series and coming up with a conclusion.

As for the Tolkien fans, it's funny but I used to think they were the only non-toxic fandom and I was actually really proud of them. And then they found out there was going to be a black elf on Rings of Power and HOLY SHIT did that fandom change from elves to orcs overnight. They went from least toxic to MOST toxic and haven't turned back. I stopped looking in the comment sections under any posts because I just couldn't stomach them anymore they became so foul.

It’s funny you say that, because I deliberately avoided GoT for years much for the same reason I avoided shows like Yellowstone, The Walking Dead, and Sons of Anarchy… the people who obsessed over the shows were insufferable. I had completely resigned myself to believe that GoT was exactly like South Park depicted… dragons, dicks, and drama.

What's funny is I found the book fans even worse at the time (having only recently read the books myself). On more than one occasion, I've seen the book fans INTENTIONALLY spoil the story for people enjoying the show because they literally thought anyone who hadn't read the books yet was an asshole (in their exact words). I won't mention their name even though they left our community but one of them is even a member here.

 

[Ants!]

Also to clarify on my feelings towards fandoms: it's a generality that doesn't apply to all fans. The more rational ones who can have a real and open discussion and not act like Comic Book Guy from the Simpsons are more than alright with me, and you guys fall into that group. Otherwise I wouldn't be here to discuss stuff with yall

 

[Mark]

What's funny is I found the book fans even worse at the time (having only recently read the books myself). On more than one occasion, I've seen the book fans INTENTIONALLY spoil the story for people enjoying the show because they literally thought anyone who hadn't read the books yet was an asshole (in their exact words). I won't mention their name even though they left our community but one of them is even a member here.

I’m right there with you, my girlfriend and I have a mutual friend (who’s a member here, and is a dickface, if he sees this) that would listen to the audiobooks during his commute to work and would go out of his way to say shit like “I’m not gonna ruin it for y’all, but…” and then follow it up with the entire script complete with cliff notes from the author and commentary from the director.

He tried to get us to read the books, but I can never sit still long enough and she just doesn’t really enjoy reading long stories. Strictly from a viewer’s standpoint, though? Very easy to see how the book crowd can be a little wild.

 

[Ants!]

I can't stand people like that. You can maybe try to explain in what ways the books are better and be vague about it, but also trust that the person you're talking to is more than capable of picking up the books and reading them if they decide for themselves as an adult that they are interested.

 

[Ants!]

I also think it's better to enjoy the show or movie before reading the book that it came from, because in that way, it is possible to enjoy both. If you read the books first, then you're just going to be annoyed by all the changes in the adaptation.

For example, I actually liked the legends of the seeker TV show, because I didn't read the sword of truth series until years later. So if I were to somehow find the show again and go back and watch it again, I would still like it.

 

[Kat]

I'm a bit confused though how you haven't read any of his books but read an Afterwards in one of his books? I must be misunderstanding something.

I've read the series, I'm just saying I wouldn't read any future books. Honestly I probably would if he actually finished the series though. I'm just forever mad because I have a rule against reading unfinished series (for this exact reason) and I stupidly assumed this one was complete because it's been out for so long and has a TV show. I didn't realize it wasn't until I finished the last written book and went to buy the next one, and found it didn't exist. And it still doesn't!!!

I also watch House of the Dragon, so it'd be fair to consider me part of the problem of him being distracted by other projects.

Ive never read them because it sounds more classical fantasy. I love the political nature of ASOIAF.

I agree, I love the combination of politics and fantasy. People always look askance at me when I call GoT or HotD a political drama with dragons, so I'm glad you said that.

 

[Ants!]

It being so political is probably why there was such a focus on making so many families and histories and backstory.

 

[dimmerwit]

GoT is absolutely historical-themed politics, especially since it's loosely based on the Wars of the Roses, and HotD is loosely based on the Anarchy.