My (awful) experience of living in Europe as an Iranian

[aiat_gamer]

Maybe some have noticed I disappeared from the forums soon even though I was pretty excited for its revival. The reason was I was extremely depressed, even suicidal because no matter how hard I tried, I could not find a job...

I came to Finland in 2011, got my masters in engineering with honors, then worked as a researcher and got my PhD in 2020. After that I tried and tried and could not land a position. I tried studying to become a nurse out of frustration, but could not take it after a year.

It is actually very normal here to push foreigners towards cleaning, nursing and food delivary jobs, and pretty normal for them to see people with high degrees working in these sort of jobs.

What I learned here is that besides being discriminated against, apparently the norm is that without knowing somone, it is extremely rare to be able to find a job. Pretty much everyone says CV, experience or any academic achievement do not matter. You can be the most unqualified person for the job and still get it, if you know someone in the company. Actual advicd I have received numerous times is that applying without and contacts is a waste of time...

So the only way I was able to land anything is to reach out to someone I knew from my thesis years, he introduced me to someone else and after a couple of months I finally found a job after spending 4 years trying and trying.

It is such a horrible feeling to be treated like this pretty much everywhere. Most Iranians I know are struggling and hate the awkward feeling that they don't have any place either in the home country, or abroad. Iranians are counted as the most hated people in most EU countries, even though they easily assimilate in new cultures for the most part.

Anyway, this was a long rant and these days it is the first time in about 5 years that I am happy and not depressed all the time. I do think how my situation stopped me from having kids, buying a house and basically living like a normal person but at least now I am moving to a new country (Sweden), I have a job that includes a company car where I get to travel around alot and I am excited. Yeah my wife has to stay here(Finland) for about a year and it will be difficult to live separately this long, but I like to think bad times are finally over.

Ok, rant out! Let the good time roll!

 

[Crystal]

Wow @aiat_gamer, I'm so sorry to read all of this.

I'm glad you got your PhD, that's a massive accomplishment and something to be immensely proud of. As for the nepotistic side of getting a job in certain places, sadly, I've heard that's an all too common practice, and obviously makes it exceptionally hard to progress in any country where you don't have those kind of contacts. I'm also glad you did manage to find your contact and get in the door, that's fantastic and I hope you secure a strong foothold and push on and get to new heights! Living separately from your wife will be a struggle, of course, but hopefully that year will pass by quickly and you will be able to live together again. Steady income and a car definitely helps in the short term, but here's hoping this is indeed the end of the hard times and you're onto greener pastures permanently!

Welcome back

(speaking on the depression and suicidal aspects, as someone who suffers from both, don't hesitate to reach out anytime you need to! It's never a bad thing to speak to someone who understands where you're at mentally during those times )

 

[Nae'blis]

Sorry to hear that! But I'm glad that things look like they're turning around! And, also:

Welcome to Sweden!

Where are you going to live?

 

[Smacktard]

Maybe some have noticed I disappeared from the forums soon even though I was pretty excited for its revival. The reason was I was extremely depressed, even suicidal because no matter how hard I tried, I could not find a job...

I came to Finland in 2011, got my masters in engineering with honors, then worked as a researcher and got my PhD in 2020. After that I tried and tried and could not land a position. I tried studying to become a nurse out of frustration, but could not take it after a year.

It is actually very normal here to push foreigners towards cleaning, nursing and food delivary jobs, and pretty normal for them to see people with high degrees working in these sort of jobs.

What I learned here is that besides being discriminated against, apparently the norm is that without knowing somone, it is extremely rare to be able to find a job. Pretty much everyone says CV, experience or any academic achievement do not matter. You can be the most unqualified person for the job and still get it, if you know someone in the company. Actual advicd I have received numerous times is that applying without and contacts is a waste of time...

So the only way I was able to land anything is to reach out to someone I knew from my thesis years, he introduced me to someone else and after a couple lf months I finally found a job after spending 4 years trying and trying.

It is such a horrible feeling to be treated like this pretty much everywhere. Most Iranians I know are struggling and hate the awkward feeling that they don't have any place either in the home country, or abroad. Iranians are counted as the most hated people in most EU countries, even though they easily assimilate in new cultures for the most part.

Anyway, this was a long rant and these days it is the first time in about 5 years that I am happy and not depressed all the time. I do think how my situation stopped me from having kids, buying a house and basically living like a normal person but at least now I am moving to a new country (Sweden), I have a job that includes a company car where I get to travel around alot and I am excited. Yeah my wife has to stay here(Finland) for about a year and it will be difficult to live separately this long, but I like to think bad times are finally over.

Ok, rant out! Let the good time roll!

I'm so sorry to hear about this. I met plenty of Iranian cab drivers in Canada who had PhDs who couldn't get jobs either. I assumed it was due to Canada not recognizing certain international universities. It's a shame that citizens -- average people -- are the ones that suffer due to geopolitics, but I suppose it does seem like more than that is going on behind the scenes.

Sorry you had to endure this. I always thought Finland was pretty open and accepting of foreigners -- in their peculiar, distant Finnish sort of way, that is

 

[Jon]

This happens in America too, for what it's worth. Companies don't care about a piece of paper. Most of the time they take it as "oh, that means I'd have to pay you more than X, who has a high school diploma." And at least here in America, companies will take cheap labor over educated labor any day. And when you become expensive, they kick you to the curb and bring in the next nobody.

It's a far cry from the 50s when having an education MEANT something. Across the world, we've become the worst version of ourselves, with everyone vying to outbid everyone else. The biggest difference being we're trying to outbid ourselves for who is going to do the work for less.

 

[shortkut]

@aiat_gamer sorry to hear you had to go through all that shit. Hopefully you’re right and things are turning around.

I always thought Finland was pretty open and accepting of foreigners -- in their peculiar, distant Finnish sort of way, that is

I wonder if they are just accepting of white foreigners. One of my close friends did study abroad there for a year and lived every moment, but he was white.

 

[Mark]

Maybe some have noticed I disappeared from the forums soon even though I was pretty excited for its revival. The reason was I was extremely depressed, even suicidal because no matter how hard I tried, I could not find a job...

I came to Finland in 2011, got my masters in engineering with honors, then worked as a researcher and got my PhD in 2020. After that I tried and tried and could not land a position. I tried studying to become a nurse out of frustration, but could not take it after a year.

It is actually very normal here to push foreigners towards cleaning, nursing and food delivary jobs, and pretty normal for them to see people with high degrees working in these sort of jobs.

What I learned here is that besides being discriminated against, apparently the norm is that without knowing somone, it is extremely rare to be able to find a job. Pretty much everyone says CV, experience or any academic achievement do not matter. You can be the most unqualified person for the job and still get it, if you know someone in the company. Actual advicd I have received numerous times is that applying without and contacts is a waste of time...

So the only way I was able to land anything is to reach out to someone I knew from my thesis years, he introduced me to someone else and after a couple lf months I finally found a job after spending 4 years trying and trying.

It is such a horrible feeling to be treated like this pretty much everywhere. Most Iranians I know are struggling and hate the awkward feeling that they don't have any place either in the home country, or abroad. Iranians are counted as the most hated people in most EU countries, even though they easily assimilate in new cultures for the most part.

Anyway, this was a long rant and these days it is the first time in about 5 years that I am happy and not depressed all the time. I do think how my situation stopped me from having kids, buying a house and basically living like a normal person but at least now I am moving to a new country (Sweden), I have a job that includes a company car where I get to travel around alot and I am excited. Yeah my wife has to stay here(Finland) for about a year and it will be difficult to live separately this long, but I like to think bad times are finally over.

Ok, rant out! Let the good time roll!

Of the Iranians I know here, most are Uber/Lyft drivers or tobacco shop owners/employees and are all college-educated, whether it’s an MBA or something in the healthcare field like you described. Same goes for some of the Iraqi, Afghani, Pakistani, and Yemeni people I’ve met, so you’ve definitely experienced what a lot of people do here in the states. A Pakistani buddy of mine made it ALL the way to Silicon Valley from the ghetto in Baltimore only to find out that they’re hiring kids fresh outta college rather than immigrants that had to bust their ass to play catch-up with American-born kids. It took him years to land a gig at Google that they were giving high school kids internships for.

I’m glad that your perseverance has paid off, though. Never let those kind of prejudices keep you back from doing what you set out to do, even if it takes you longer to do it. All that means is that the next generation… your kids or your friend’s kids will have an easier path forward following in your footsteps. I’m also glad that you’re in a better place mentally, because I know what that’s like and it’s not fun. Although it’s no replacement for real mental health treatment and awkward at first, I’d encourage you to reach out to some of our people here if even just to vent. You’ll find a lot of likeminded people that have encountered similar experiences to yours, and even just venting about it may prove beneficial to you.

 

[The Eye in the Sky!]

I wonder if they are just accepting of white foreigners. One of my close friends did study abroad there for a year and lived every moment, but he was white.

This is what I've heard from friends that moved from US over to Sweden and then Scotland. They pride themselves on being open to all (white) people that want to move in and contribute to their society.

As much crap (justified) as US gets for various things, Europeans like to turn a blind eye at how much racism they have over there.

 

[Jawneh]

Sorry to hear all that. I never really got into the Finnish job market before leaving the country, so i can't talk much about the situation there from personal experiences. Hopefully it'll fare better on the other side of the gulf! Even with being away from your family.

Sorry you had to endure this. I always thought Finland was pretty open and accepting of foreigners -- in their peculiar, distant Finnish sort of way, that is

They... are. At least socially in bigger cities. Though you got to be from specific countries to get a pass. I'm not sure if it's still as bad as needing to be white, as it 100% used to be like that. There is some rough history with a number of immigrants and asylum seekers from the past, as well as still in the present, who come in and expect a free ride. Sadly there are politicians catering to that, so it's a messed up situation. All of that has then turned into violence due to the politics that then easily turned into discrimination without actually thinking about the cause of all that. All the immigrants looking to find a job and starting a life there are hurting if they don't played the messed up game at social security to get as much as your stereotypical Somali family with 6 kids crying about not having enough iphones, or the car not being big enough, or that the food stamps don't cover enough kobe for them, and so on. There's quite a bit of stories and news articles about asylum seekers on social security doing nothing and being better off than your typical nuclear finnish family.

But yeah. When I was a kid, racism in general was definitely a thing and still most likely is. Europe having so many nations and such big flood of immigrants into it that things have gotten odd on a cultural level. Mostly due to design by disenfranchasing some folks and in specific cases putting others on pedestals to spotlight them for whatever political reason.

 

[Mark]

This is what I've heard from friends that moved from US over to Sweden and then Scotland. They pride themselves on being open to all (white) people that want to move in and contribute to their society.

As much crap (justified) as US gets for various things, Europeans like to turn a blind eye at how much racism they have over there.

Yup, I knew an English guy for a few years. Incredibly racist. He did not last long in Baltimore before packing up and heading out. That one surprised me, because I know a couple black English dudes and I thought it was pretty diverse over there.

 

[Crystal]

Yup, I knew an English guy for a few years. Incredibly racist. He did not last long in Baltimore before packing up and heading out. That one surprised me, because I know a couple black English dudes and I thought it was pretty diverse over there.

Yeah...England can be hit or miss there. Remember I mentioned my dad was among one of the worst, most bigoted people I know? Yeah...

 

[Nae'blis]

This is what I've heard from friends that moved from US over to Sweden and then Scotland. They pride themselves on being open to all (white) people that want to move in and contribute to their society.

As much crap (justified) as US gets for various things, Europeans like to turn a blind eye at how much racism they have over there.

This is unfortunately true..

In Sweden, the third biggest party Sverigedemokraterna (the Sweden Democrats), has roots in nazi politics. They have "of course" taken a stand against racism and so on, but they are a bunch of so fucking blatantly racist populist pricks, that it scares me. They spout a lot of bullshit that people wants to hear, particularly in rural areas..

What scares me even more is that people keep voting for them.

 

[aiat_gamer]

Sorry to hear that! But I'm glad that things look like they're turning around! And, also:

Welcome to Sweden!

Where are you going to live?

Stockholm baby . (Do you mind if I ask you a couple of questions before the move by the way?)

sorry to hear you had to go through all that shit. Hopefully you’re right and things are turning around.

I wonder if they are just accepting of white foreigners. One of my close friends did study abroad there for a year and lived every moment, but he was white.

The generally put themselves first, and of course next comes other Europeans and the so called "white people". By the way, no offense to you but I really hate this way of categorizing people. I mean if we go by color Iranians are pretty much considered "white", but I do get why they are considered, I don't know, "brown" people? I mean many think we speak Arabic because of the whole religious ruling regime.

For whoever is interested, Finland actually is one of the worst countries when it comes to issues like this. Generally they are ok with foreigners, but when it comes to job market they do not like hiring anything other than the so called" White people". A dude actually did a paper on this, applying to jobs using the same CV but with different names based on ethnicity and country. It is an interesting read:

https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/abs/10.1111/soin.12276

Also, there are tons of articles on the issue with the job market in Finland, posted on the government official news website Yle. All you need to do is google and find loads:

"I'm broken, depressed": Foreigners struggle to find work in Finland

Immigrants job hunting in Finland say they face a language barrier, as well as discrimination with respect to pay and contracts.

yle.fi

Also also, this line always makes me feel horrible, on Finland Immigration wikipage:
In a 2015 online survey by YLE, Finns were most accepting of German, Swedish, Estonian, British and US American immigrants. In the same survey Iran, Iraq and Romania were the least accepted countries of origin of foreign immigrants.[77]

 

[Nae'blis]

Stockholm baby . (Do you mind if I ask you a couple of questions before the move by the way?)

Coolio, lived in Stockholm until I was nine or so, now I live about an hour down the coast!

Sure, go ahead, I'll gladly answer what I can!

 

[Fire Queen]

By the way, no offense to you but I really hate this way of categorizing people. I mean if we go by color Iranians are pretty much considered "white", but I do get why they are considered, I don't know, "brown" people?

the rules for who is and isn't considered "white" change based on the time and place, is the thing. in the united states, irish immigrants weren't considered "white" until the early 1900s

racism is one thing and it is definitely a problem across europe (see: association football clubs desperately begging their fans to stop chanting racist things at black players), but it goes hand-in-hand with colorism as well. the average bigoted brit publican doesn't care what country the immigrants are "pouring into the country" from, just that those immigrants don't appear to be white and therefore don't fit his definition of what a brit is

 

[shortkut]

The generally put themselves first, and of course next comes other Europeans and the so called "white people". By the way, no offense to you but I really hate this way of categorizing people. I mean if we go by color Iranians are pretty much considered "white", but I do get why they are considered, I don't know, "brown" people? I mean many think we speak Arabic because of the whole religious ruling regime

No offense taken. I was actually thinking of putting “white” in quotations, but decided against it. If anything, I want to make sure I didn’t offend you

 

[Kat]

That's really rough, I'm sorry you went through that. We experience similar things in the USA with resumes getting tossed due to the perceived ethnicity of the name attached. When I was in college, the office which helps students find jobs told a story about advising a guy to only put his first initial on his resume because people assumed he was a woman. He quickly got a job after doing that, despite struggling for months prior to that. (Not sure what us actual women are meant to do.)

The company I work for is open about prioritizing people who have been referred, even if it's a personal referral rather than a professional one. Our biggest customer is notorious for being nearly impossible to get an interview at unless you know somebody who works there.

I've only ever gotten one job by blindly applying to a place where I didn't know anybody or have some kind of connection. "Who you know is more important than what you know" indeed. It's shitty, but I think it's because interviewing effectively is a skill almost nobody has, so a person you trust vouching for somebody is more likely to get you a decent candidate than trying to sift through a bunch of people who could be lying their ass off. (Even Google has admitted their crazy interviews don't lead to better hires.) The downside, as you know, is the company will never hire people unconnected to the people already working for it, which leads to a lack of diversity.

 

[Friel]

Yeah...England can be hit or miss there. Remember I mentioned my dad was among one of the worst, most bigoted people I know? Yeah...

Ireland is the same and seems to be getting worse.

 

[Crystal]

Ireland is the same and seems to be getting worse.

Yeah, I can see that, for sure. It's unfortunate, truly.