Are you woke?

[Crazy Jamie]

Don't answer that. I was just reflecting on how different political discourse is now to when the forums were active. We'd have debates about all sorts of things and I'm not suggesting they were always healthy, but things do seem to be so much worse now in terms of actually having constructive discussions. Politically you have the likes of Donald Trump and Boris Johnson who were very different to anything that came before them, and the falling quality of political debate as a result seems to be preventing constructive discussion and debate in other areas. You can't say anything about trans rights without being dragged down into the mud, for example.

How is everyone finding that? Personally I'm reading much more widely on these issues, but mostly books rather than day to day news. And I'll discuss them with people in real life, but very rarely online anymore. I just find that platforms like Facebook and Twitter have such a low quality of debate that it isn't worth my time.

 

[Lunar Kreskents]

but things do seem to be so much worse now in terms of actually having constructive discussions. Politically you have the likes of Donald Trump and Boris Johnson who were very different to anything that came before them, and the falling quality of political debate as a result seems to be preventing constructive discussion and debate in other areas.

I just find that platforms like Facebook and Twitter have such a low quality of debate that it isn't worth my time.

Completely agree. It's very concerning to me. It seems like we're losing the ability to just talk to people. What are we going to do when no one can remember how to get along anymore? What happens when there's a blip in infrastructure and ChatGPT can't draft you a "friendly response" and you actually need to think about how to converse and negotiate with someone different than you? A lot of people seem to block anyone who has a differing opinion about anything on social media. It sounds benign on the surface, but is frankly dangerous in my opinion. Without having those relationships and hearing viewpoints from people you may (or may not, not always!) disagree with, there is literally zero opportunity to change anyone's mind, including changing your own mind. Without that relationship it inherently becomes us vs them mentality. Doom senses are tingling...

 

[Crystal]

You can't say anything about trans rights without being dragged down into the mud, for example.

You can here, we're grown ups and we've already had a pretty active discussion about trans things

 

[Cole]

the only thing I'm glad about is that I wasn't staff at GameWinners over the last 8 years or so. God I would've lost my mind.

 

[Boots]

Back in GW days I was blindly Pro-Life. Now I'm as Pro-Choice as they come.

So many people are closed off to healthy debate/discussion and are closed off to change/betterment/understanding each other.

 

[A Slightly New Used Server]

Back in GW days I was blindly Pro-Life. Now I'm as Pro-Choice as they come.

So many people are closed off to healthy debate/discussion and are closed off to change/betterment/understanding each other.

@Ants! has shared a similar sentiment to you quite a bit actually.

I'm sure all of use have gravitated in some direction thanks to all the people we talk to on here (and the old GW). One of the other forums I go to is mostly for college sports, and oh boy there are a lot of old southerners in there. They've had to ban any and all political talk on all but a single forum there, and I avoid that one like the plague.

 

[Fire Queen]

at its worst PIMI was kind of a 4chan Jr. where any engagement with sincerity was shunned, every minority group could be the butt of a joke, and even the people who liked each other joked about wanting to kill each other. when i was 13-14 i remember getting a warning for a racist joke i made because i was trying to fit in, which...doesn't speak very well for the character of that particular community. things got better over time as we all got older and ditched the people who didn't want to change. what Vinny did to Quicky (if anyone remembers either of those two names) was kind of a turning point for a lot of us i feel

nowadays online has melted everything to the point of there's almost no point having a discussion with anyone you can't already trust. i have had to accept that there is simply nothing that can be done to change the minds of the worst people out there. if someone has already decided in their mind that people like me deserve to die then a reasoned and nuanced discussion is simply not going to happen and that's not my fault. like ten or fifteen years ago i was out there trying to change minds in comment chains but i have since learned that stuff like that is just a waste of time and i'm better off spending my energy focusing on the people i love and the people who love me.

it's heartening to see that so many people from the place i cut my online teeth are, like, cool and chill about things and not people who were on the wrong side of gamergate

 

[Boots]

One of my friends' kids is nonbinary.

I don't understand it, but it doesn't change anything for me other than what I call them, so what do I care?

I do think its crap what's happening to women's sports and coming out as trans is a real shitty thing to do after you're married or have kids.

 

[Cole]

okay, I have to know then. I'm glad to see those perspectives from you, do you still consider yourself a Trump supporter...?

 

[The Eye in the Sky!]

Black and white politics make me angry... so I try to stay out of things. I tend to lean left, but I do fall into the center on some things so I just don't like to get involved.

My general attitude is as long as you what you are doing is making you happy and not hurting anyone (within reason, bigots can pound sand) then you do you.

 

[Fire Queen]

I do think its crap what's happening to women's sports

agreed! they've been underfunded and underappreciated for far too long, and the recent NIL (Name, Image, Likeness) rules from the NCAA are only going to make that gulf even wider, at least for collegiate sports. even with Title IX in effect, it's insulting how much money colleges and professional organizations spend on men's sports relative to women's sports. even worse are all of the abusers who get to stick around in the coaching ranks because of who they know and how much clout they have

coming out as trans is a real shitty thing to do after you're married or have kids.

this is a genuine question: what's the alternative? be repressed for the rest of your life? i would hope that in a happy, loving, and functional marriage, someone being their best self would be anything but a detriment. in fact, i know people who have navigated transitions in marriages! one of those couples is actually still together, and another divorced but they're still on good terms.

it's worth mentioning, i suppose, that "coming out as trans" is a choice insofar as "this is an aspect of myself i now understand and am choosing to share with others" rather than "i woke up today and decided that i am trans now". you mentioned that you don't understand about your friend's nonbinary child, so i want to come from a place of helping you understand a bit better!

 

[Boots]

okay, I have to know then. I'm glad to see those perspectives from you, do you still consider yourself a Trump supporter...?

Lol no. I'll likely abstain next election. There's no good choices. I do hate Joe Biden more than Trump, but they're both loser old farts.

I voted for Tulsi Gabbard in the primary last time. I feel apathetic because no politician represents me. I'm one of those weirdos who believes strongly in body autonomy, and that ranges from abortion to vaccination. I did not get the fauci ouchie and have no regrets. I got COVID and recovered just fine.

I'm still pro 2A and think the smaller the government the better. We need term limits and age requirements for retirement.

I was honestly hoping more politicians would die and something good would come from COVID but no dice.

 

[Cole]

I'm going to speak candidly and I hope I offend no one.

I am very very left leaning. kind of as Tom said, I don't really care what anyone else does as long as it's not hurting people.

but in some circles (especially far left circles, and I know this is an extreme), there's this sense of "if I am not willing to date a trans woman I'm a transphobe."

truthfully, I don't know if I could, I've never been in that situation and I don't know if I could or if it wouldn't bother me.

but in my opinion, if I were married to a woman who later revealed she was trans (either she was born male and transitioned, or was born female and wanted to transition) (as you said, she has likely known for a while and only felt comfortable saying it later), I would definitely feel a sense of betrayal. not "ugh I can't be with a MAN", more "this changes the person I thought you were. you kept a major secret from me" kind of thing. again, I don't know what I would do in that situation.

but if I got into a relationship and LATER found out they kept this major secret, it was change my impression of them.

 

[The Eye in the Sky!]

Politicians should only be allowed to serve a certain time and under a certain age. I hate that people in their 80's are deciding policy in a world where even me being 37 is feeling less knowledgable of outside of my specific work industry.

 

[Cole]

Lol no. I'll likely abstain next election. There's no good choices. I do hate Joe Biden more than Trump, but they're both loser old farts.

I voted for Tulsi Gabbard in the primary last time. I feel apathetic because no politician represents me. I'm one of those weirdos who believes strongly in body autonomy, and that ranges from abortion to vaccination. I did not get the fauci ouchie and have no regrets. I got COVID and recovered just fine.

I'm still pro 2A and think the smaller the government the better. We need term limits and age requirements for retirement.

I was honestly hoping more politicians would die and something good would come from COVID but no dice.

Im at least partially glad to hear that. I wouldn't purposefully exclude Trump supporters from my life, but by the same token, I do tend to think less of people actively supporting him.

at the very start? MAYBE I can understand it. but the more he said, the more he did, the more of himself we realized he was. if someone still supports him, I am going to lose a little respect.

 

[Fire Queen]

the politicians who make 100% of the decisions have 0% of the expertise and there are lawmakers on both sides of the aisle who are unfit to continue working but their party structure keeps propping them up because at least they're a guaranteed vote, but also that's the american political system working exactly as designed, so like. murica.

 

[Boots]

this is a genuine question: what's the alternative? be repressed for the rest of your life? i would hope that in a happy, loving, and functional marriage, someone being their best self would be anything but a detriment. in fact, i know people who have navigated transitions in marriages! one of those couples is actually still together, and another divorced but they're still on good terms.

it's worth mentioning, i suppose, that "coming out as trans" is a choice insofar as "this is an aspect of myself i now understand and am choosing to share with others" rather than "i woke up today and decided that i am trans now". you mentioned that you don't understand about your friend's nonbinary child, so i want to come from a place of helping you understand a bit better!

I couldn't do it. I've told my fiance if he ever came out as trans I'd be filling for divorce immediately. He said the same. I can't change my sexual orientation. We're both heterosexual so it wouldn't work. Also it would feel like a major breach of trust and deception. Like pulling the rug out from under someone.

I was thinking of the recent Chris MrBeast scandal. His poor (soon to be ex-)wife and kid.

My friend's kid is about 17 now. There were pituitary gland issues preventing growth/puberty. So in that case I can understand the origin of confusion about identity. Maybe it's a phase? Maybe people think it's a phase because children go through lots of phases?

Generally, it feels like a Gen Z trend, something kids are using to feel special/unique. It was not a thing when I was growing up. Why is it suddenly cropping up? Maybe it feels jarring because while homosexuality is something you're born with, this often feels like it's coming out of left field.

in the early 20s I modded the Creative Writing forum. One of the other mods was a British gay man, crossdresser and transvestite. I think his name was Charming.

I guess I feel like do your own thing, have fun. We have freedom in this country. But don't try to tell me it's normal. It's weird and that's ok.

As for sports, create a separate category to include trans athletes. Keep trans women out of women's sports. I feel bad for the women and girls who trained for years and then are forced to compete against biological male(s). They are losing out on opportunities to someone they cannot biologically complete with.

 

[Cole]

I couldn't do it. I've told my fiance if he ever came out as trans I'd be filling for divorce immediately. He said the same. I can't change my sexual orientation. We're both heterosexual so it wouldn't work. Also it would feel like a major breach of trust and deception. Like pulling the rug out from under someone.

I was thinking of the recent Chris MrBeast scandal. His poor (soon to be ex-)wife and kid.

My friend's kid is about 17 now. There were pituitary gland issues preventing growth/puberty. So in that case I can understand the origin of confusion about identity. Maybe it's a phase? Maybe people think it's a phase because children go through lots of phases?

Generally, it feels like a Gen Z trend, something kids are using to feel special/unique. It was not a thing when I was growing up. Why is it suddenly cropping up? Maybe it feels jarring because while homosexuality is something you're born with, this often feels like it's coming out of left field.

in the early 20s I modded the Creative Writing forum. One of the other mods was a British gay man, crossdresser and transvestite. I think his name was Charming.

I guess I feel like do your own thing, have fun. We have freedom in this country. But don't try to tell me it's normal. It's weird and that's ok.

As for sports, create a separate category to include trans athletes. Keep trans women out of women's sports. I feel bad for the women and girls who trained for years and then are forced to compete against biological male(s). They are losing out on opportunities to someone they cannot biologically complete with.

I can mostly agree with this, except that I'm not so firm.

if my significant other told me they wanted to transition to male, it would require a serious conversation on what they plan to do, how they plan to transition, and why they kept it secret from me.

I don't know what would happen after that

 

[Mark]

Don't answer that. I was just reflecting on how different political discourse is now to when the forums were active. We'd have debates about all sorts of things and I'm not suggesting they were always healthy, but things do seem to be so much worse now in terms of actually having constructive discussions. Politically you have the likes of Donald Trump and Boris Johnson who were very different to anything that came before them, and the falling quality of political debate as a result seems to be preventing constructive discussion and debate in other areas. You can't say anything about trans rights without being dragged down into the mud, for example.

How is everyone finding that? Personally I'm reading much more widely on these issues, but mostly books rather than day to day news. And I'll discuss them with people in real life, but very rarely online anymore. I just find that platforms like Facebook and Twitter have such a low quality of debate that it isn't worth my time.

There have been some good conversations going here since we’ve launched, and I’m not just saying that because I’m involved in some of them. So far, there has been an overwhelming amount of discussion about some of the more controversial topics… and I mean overwhelming for me because it has been a LONG time since I’ve typed that much for free.

 

[Lunar Kreskents]

Black and white politics make me angry... so I try to stay out of things. I tend to lean left, but I do fall into the center on some things so I just don't like to get involved.

My general attitude is as long as you what you are doing is making you happy and not hurting anyone (within reason, bigots can pound sand) then you do you.

Same. Like Boots said, I don't feel like anyone represents me, and this especially is part of the problem. Nothing is actually black and white and 2 party systems create a false dichotomy where I don't even want to bother trying to talk about it anymore. But really any party system can be a problem. I wish there were an efficient way to just vote on issues, but issues are so complicated and the media so steeped in nonsense and algorithms so misleading, even if complex issues were simple enough for a common person to understand the full context, I don't know how anyone would actually receive the information for the full context in the first place. It really bothers me.

So I try to treat everything/everyone in a

My general attitude is as long as you what you are doing is making you happy and not hurting anyone (within reason, bigots can pound sand) then you do you.

type way on an individual basis for the whatever particular thing they want to do. I can't seem to figure out any reasonable way forward that would not somehow make me a hypocrite. Political systems seem to make even good people hypocrites by default of the generalized nature of the thing.

* head explodes *

 

[Raine]

If we're using woke insofar as the original "eyes are opened to the injustices of [thing] around us," then yes. Very. To an extent that it is actually detrimental to my mental health and I've had to abandon the internet entirely for extended periods of time. I purged Facebook and Twitter years ago; I intentionally kept to a small selection of subreddits. I don't do any other social media. I acknowledge that I would not have the bandwidth for it.

Insofar as it's commonly used now, wherein just being Gay or Trans and having the audacity to exist is Woke? Busted.

I don't go where I'm not wanted, I don't try to change other people's minds, my mind isn't really open to be changed on most subjects that I've become familiar with barring new verified information. But... I'm open to talk to people, in smaller settings. Work, Discord, this forum. If I'm not going to become the recipient of a random potshot, or approached in bad faith, or just actively trolled? We can compare notes. Maybe find some commonality, see where we stand and how we've gotten there.

I am [long list of buzzword checkboxes] and work with a lot of openly bigoted people. Racist, sexist, homophobic. They're transphobic insofar as the television has told them to be, but they don't really understand it. They're pretty far right on the political spectrum. I am... not. We're still friend-ly, I ask them about their kids, they treat me with respect and trust my skill. I can't bring myself to trust them, or truly consider them to be friends, but that's okay.

A couple years ago I cared a lot more, but I can't anymore. There's really no point when words don't have meaning, or that meaning changes on a whim.

 

[Duke Nukem]

I hate everyone equally much. No discrimination from me, you'll all be treated equally bad.

 

[Mark]

Same. Like Boots said, I don't feel like anyone represents me,

Oh? You aren’t adequately represented by Cardi B, Kardi K, and the plethora of other sparkling examples of powerful women we’re forced to see in every corner of media (even this one now, good going, self)? Shocker. Whether it’s media or politics… just like men, gays, lesbians, and trans folks… the wrong women get the notoriety more often than the right ones.

If we're using woke insofar as the original "eyes are opened to the injustices of [thing] around us," then yes. Very. To an extent that it is actually detrimental to my mental health and I've had to abandon the internet entirely for extended periods of time. I purged Facebook and Twitter years ago; I intentionally kept to a small selection of subreddits. I don't do any other social media. I acknowledge that I would not have the bandwidth for it.

Insofar as it's commonly used now, wherein just being Gay or Trans and having the audacity to exist is Woke? Busted.

I don't go where I'm not wanted, I don't try to change other people's minds, my mind isn't really open to be changed on most subjects that I've become familiar with barring new verified information. But... I'm open to talk to people, in smaller settings. Work, Discord, this forum. If I'm not going to become the recipient of a random potshot, or approached in bad faith, or just actively trolled? We can compare notes. Maybe find some commonality, see where we stand and how we've gotten there.

I am [long list of buzzword checkboxes] and work with a lot of openly bigoted people. Racist, sexist, homophobic. They're transphobic insofar as the television has told them to be, but they don't really understand it. They're pretty far right on the political spectrum. I am... not. We're still friend-ly, I ask them about their kids, they treat me with respect and trust my skill. I can't bring myself to trust them, or truly consider them to be friends, but that's okay.

A couple years ago I cared a lot more, but I can't anymore. There's really no point when words don't have meaning, or that meaning changes on a whim.

I’ll be blunt, you’re the type get it. Social media isn’t a good place for ME. If it’s a shitty place for a straight white dude to spend any amount of time without being filled with varying emotions that aren’t “necessary” for me to feel… then you don’t stand a fucking chance. It’s exactly the kind of wasteland you envisioned when you abandoned ship. Sickening, quite honestly. From the cries for attention to the outright hatred… it’s just a mess. You’re better off without it.

I hate everyone equally much. No discrimination from me, you'll all be treated equally bad.

This is the kinda equality I stand for. I love you all, but, fuck you all.

 

[Duke Nukem]

#NoLivesMatter

 

[VashTheStampede]

I would definitely say that I'm "woke", though with my relatively socially privileged background I still find myself occasionally surprised that something I said is more...backwards than I realized.

I'm very much camped on the left wing of the political spectrum, which is frustrating in a country that doesn't have a real leftist presence in government (though one side loves to consider the centrists to be radicals).

I live in the most blood-red part of a state that is famously becoming a haven for the type of people I...well, to keep it civil I'd say that I have serious ideological differences with. I've lost count of the times some random red hat has approached me at work and begun to blather about some heinous shit because they assume they're talking to a fellow fascist. And because I'm at work, in a customer service situation, I have to smile and politely disagree in such a way that it doesn't become an "incident".

All of this is to say that my experiences every day have made me quite certain that I can co-exist with anyone here, regardless of their belief structure. I'll just silently judge.

 

[Ants!]

I went from enthusiastically voting for Bush in 2004, to not voting, and then to voting for Bernie Sanders even more enthusiastically in 2016. I have Gamewinners to thank for that. Love you guys forever

 

[Fool's Requiem]

"Woke" is one of those terms that don't have a real meaning anymore because people have deluted it so much to mean anything.

Kinda like "underrated".

 

[Ants!]

There is a whole list of pejoratives that conservatives have come up with these days. I can’t even keep up with them all.

 

[Jawneh]

I was definitely your usual generic white male with all the general ideas the masses exclaimed and I blindly gobbled up. Thankfully towards the end of my teens I did start to think for myself and see and wonder why so many people hate others for things that don't affect them.

Nowadays I'm part of a few nice communities that are open and caring towards everyone regardless of [insert your chosen identities]. At some point I started becoming super interested in how other people think and what their views are and become fascinated by them. More so if the views are well beyond what is considered "the norm". And this was before I graduated as a sociologist. I have learned numerous different and new ways people are the scum on Earth as well as equally many ways they are wonderful when others dont want them to be.

 

[shortkut]

Black and white politics make me angry... so I try to stay out of things. I tend to lean left, but I do fall into the center on some things so I just don't like to get involved.

My general attitude is as long as you what you are doing is making you happy and not hurting anyone (within reason, bigots can pound sand) then you do you.

This is how I feel. I think the technical term for my views is “libtard”

I’ve mentioned this elsewhere, but after Covid /anti-vaxers and the trump presidency, I’ve had too many fights with people I got off Facebook. Too many toxic people. Too many people too stubborn in their was who do not want to hear anything outside their echo chamber

 

[Kat]

I couldn't do it. I've told my fiance if he ever came out as trans I'd be filling for divorce immediately. He said the same. I can't change my sexual orientation. We're both heterosexual so it wouldn't work. Also it would feel like a major breach of trust and deception. Like pulling the rug out from under someone.

I think most people would understand if your partner's gender identity doesn't mesh with your sexual orientation, that you wouldn't want to be with them anymore. That's reasonable IMO at least, romantic relationships are about more than just loving the person for their personality. There are lots of ways you can be incompatible that are no one's fault.

However, I can also understand why someone would come out as trans after they're married. Society doesn't support even questioning your assigned gender identity, and it's a very hard thing to actually transition. It's understandable it would take them a while to get to the point where they can admit it to and accept it about themselves, much less announce it to the world. It's unlikely they were intentionally deceiving anyone; sometimes it just takes time to figure yourself out. I'd pose you this question to ponder: if your partner did realize they were trans, would you really prefer they hide it from everyone, including you, for the rest of their life? Because that's the only alternative.

Generally, it feels like a Gen Z trend, something kids are using to feel special/unique. It was not a thing when I was growing up. Why is it suddenly cropping up? Maybe it feels jarring because while homosexuality is something you're born with, this often feels like it's coming out of left field.

Or maybe it's always been a thing that people have felt, but it wasn't acceptable to say so. I'm sure you're aware of the vitriol that a lot of trans people receive today. Now consider it's actually way better today than throughout most of history. Can you really blame people for keeping it to themselves until recently?

I don't think it's a trend exactly for gen Z. IMO it's more that it's becoming acceptable for people to experiment with trying on different gender identities, the same way it's now more acceptable to experiment with sexual orientation. I'm sure some of those kids will decide they're actually cis in the end, but others will have figured out they're trans or NB a lot sooner than they would've otherwise. Considering the heartache it can cause everyone involved when it's figured out later in life, that seems like a good thing we should all support to me.

 

[A Slightly New Used Server]

I think most people would understand if your partner's gender identity doesn't mesh with your sexual orientation, that you wouldn't want to be with them anymore. That's reasonable IMO at least, romantic relationships are about more than just loving the person for their personality. There are lots of ways you can be incompatible that are no one's fault.

However, I can also understand why someone would come out as trans after they're married. Society doesn't support even questioning your assigned gender identity, and it's a very hard thing to actually transition. It's understandable it would take them a while to get to the point where they can admit it to and accept it about themselves, much less announce it to the world. It's unlikely they were intentionally deceiving anyone; sometimes it just takes time to figure yourself out. I'd pose you this question to ponder: if your partner did realize they were trans, would you really prefer they hide it from everyone, including you, for the rest of their life? Because that's the only alternative.



Or maybe it's always been a thing that people have felt, but it wasn't acceptable to say so. I'm sure you're aware of the vitriol that a lot of trans people receive today. Now consider it's actually way better today than throughout most of history. Can you really blame people for keeping it to themselves until recently?

I don't think it's a trend exactly for gen Z. IMO it's more that it's becoming acceptable for people to experiment with trying on different gender identities, the same way it's now more acceptable to experiment with sexual orientation. I'm sure some of those kids will decide they're actually cis in the end, but others will have figured out they're trans or NB a lot sooner than they would've otherwise. Considering the heartache it can cause everyone involved when it's figured out later in life, that seems like a good thing we should all support to me.

Things being acceptable socially often spark a higher rate of people fitting that description...for precisely the reason that it's now acceptable to be who you are.

Someone earlier brought up how there was a "spike" in lefthanded people once it was no longer thought to be the devil's hand (sinister in latin means "left hand"). It wasn't because it was trendy or people experimented, it's because people were no longer abused into thinking it was wrong to be that way. My grandfather ended up being ambidextrous thanks to being born lefthanded and growing up very catholic. He beat with rulers at schools for not using his right hand.

 

[Fire Queen]

and like, the actual answer as to “why isn’t there more historical research into this? why is this such a recent trend?” is because the first books the actual literal Nazi Party burned were the files held by the Magnus Hirschfield Institute of Sexology and that was back in 1933 so it’s not a Gen Z invention, we just don’t have a lot of historical documentation of it thanks to fascists

 

[Ants!]

So this is my coming out story: I have Devil’s Hand. But I have pride in it too.

 

[VashTheStampede]

My mother is a lefty so I can say lefty, it's not offensive when I say it.

 

[Fool's Requiem]

So this is my coming out story: I have Devil’s Hand. But I have pride in it too.

Being a lefty is a big deal to me. Definitely a source of pride, not shame. I'm glad I didn't live in an era (or in a family) where being left handed was a bad thing that needed to be corrected.

 

[Kat]

I struggle a lot with the divisive of "political opinions". I know people on the other side of an issue feel just as strongly as I do and there are a lot of them, so it's hard to dismiss them as completely unreasonable. But when those "opinions" are I should be forced to give birth against my will, or trans people shouldn't/don't exist, or godless heathens are destroying America, or other things like that... It's difficult to even consider the person saying that as a reasonably decent person. And I really resent the suggestion we should treat the two sides of "debates" like that as deserving of equal respect. But those aren't fringe beliefs! And it's not uncommon to hear that sort of sentiment from someone I previously liked and respected.

Maybe people just talk about these things more now and there was always a divide, I don't know. It's tough to reconcile though.

 

[Kat]

Things being acceptable socially often spark a higher rate of people fitting that description...for precisely the reason that it's now acceptable to be who you are.

Someone earlier brought up how there was a "spike" in lefthanded people once it was no longer thought to be the devil's hand (sinister in latin means "left hand"). It wasn't because it was trendy or people experimented, it's because people were no longer abused into thinking it was wrong to be that way. My grandfather ended up being ambidextrous thanks to being born lefthanded and growing up very catholic. He beat with rulers at schools for not using his right hand.

I didn't mean to be dismissive of trans/gender non-conforming kids as merely "experimenting". Hopefully it didn't come across that way. I understand it's still a lot to reject that social convention, and people aren't likely to do it casually. I just meant that some people need to explore it before they know for sure one way or the other, and some of those people may decide they're cis in the end, and that doesn't invalidate anyone else's identity.

 

[shortkut]

Things being acceptable socially often spark a higher rate of people fitting that description...for precisely the reason that it's now acceptable to be who you are.

Someone earlier brought up how there was a "spike" in lefthanded people once it was no longer thought to be the devil's hand (sinister in latin means "left hand"). It wasn't because it was trendy or people experimented, it's because people were no longer abused into thinking it was wrong to be that way. My grandfather ended up being ambidextrous thanks to being born lefthanded and growing up very catholic. He beat with rulers at schools for not using his right hand.

They did the same to my grandpa. I’m ambidextrous because I just am

 

[A Slightly New Used Server]

I didn't mean to be dismissive of trans/gender non-conforming kids as merely "experimenting". Hopefully it didn't come across that way. I understand it's still a lot to reject that social convention, and people aren't likely to do it casually. I just meant that some people need to explore it before they know for sure one way or the other, and some of those people may decide they're cis in the end, and that doesn't invalidate anyone else's identity.

Oh - sorry. Misunderstanding. I wasn't quoting you to disagree with what you said. I was adding to it. I agree people might be "experimenting" partially because it's more acceptable, but mostly because people are very often confused about who they truly are. I have a transgender cousin and for a while she was even uncomfortable coming out to a very left leaning family.

 

[Ants!]

I admit that I’m still hitting roadblocks to being considered a true ally. The most recent example of this is coming across the idea that a man being with a pre-operation trans woman (meaning they still have a penis) is actually heterosexual. I believe a pregnant man is still a man, or a woman who got somebody else pregnant is still a woman, but for some reason I struggle with this, probably because it’s still that new to me and I’m still processing. Like I’ve been told flat out that a man performing oral sex on a penis that belongs to a trans woman is still heterosexual.

The best I can say for myself right now is that it’s still me playing petty semantics arguments in my head and I still feel towards myself the “what does it matter to you?” thoughts. If they identify as straight, then they’re straight. But I’m still trying to internalize that, and I can understand how some people are still far from being ready to accept or believe that.

 

[Jawneh]

I'm definitely one who doesn't fully understand all the nuances like you @Ants! , but for me it's easier to just accept it as what it is. In the grand scheme of things, it doesn't really matter what kind of organ you're equipped with and what label you put on your flavor of sex. If you want to be a bit more accurate with your opinions when talking to others, it might be better to try to learn more. But even without knowing for sure, as long as you're fine with being corrected and you also convey that you're glad to being corrected, it'll all be good. Almost all the trans people I know have been more than happy to share about their experiences and been glad that others are interested in them in a positive way.

 

[Mark]

So this is my coming out story: I have Devil’s Hand. But I have pride in it too.

“Pride” is a weird name for your wiener.

I didn't mean to be dismissive of trans/gender non-conforming kids as merely "experimenting". Hopefully it didn't come across that way. I understand it's still a lot to reject that social convention, and people aren't likely to do it casually. I just meant that some people need to explore it before they know for sure one way or the other, and some of those people may decide they're cis in the end, and that doesn't invalidate anyone else's identity.

I think the issue presented in that scenario wasn’t a matter of acceptance of trans people, but a matter of recognition of one’s own sexual identity and preference. I don’t have a single beef with trans people, but that doesn’t mean that I want to have sex with, be in a relationship with, or marry a trans person. Is it prejudice? Absolutely. However, if I can accept a trans person for who they are… they can accept me for who I am as a heterosexual male, or they can go fuck themselves. @Boots made a similar point about if her fiancé came out as trans because she shouldn’t have to change who she is to accommodate someone else… and it’s true. Those handful of trans folks that say “don’t knock it til you try it” or “you’re a bigot if you reject (us)” are clowns, plain and simple. I see them no different as the pushy dude at the bar trying to con a chick into sleeping with him despite her obvious disinterest. There’s no difference. There’s nothing wrong with supporting trans folks without being sexually involved or interested in them, it doesn’t make someone a bad person. I know that’s not what you’re saying… but… I’m just trying to frame the conversation a little differently.

 

[Boots]

To be brutally honest:
I don't see trans women as women. I don't see them as men either.
I don't see trans men as men. I don't see them as women either.

I see everyone as human, deserving of civil liberties and to be treated with respect and kindness. It's never okay to spew hatred towards a person for being different. It's not okay to discriminate against someone for something like that.

I draw the line on irreversible sex change surgeries for minors. Once you can consent, at 18, go ahead. But before then, nah fam. It's a big decision that should not be made lightly.

I feel like my stance is pretty moderate, but I expect some of you will consider me a bigot for my honesty. And that's okay, whatever. I have no hatred in my heart for anyone.

 

[Mark]

To be brutally honest:
I don't see trans women as women. I don't see them as men either.
I don't see trans men as men. I don't see them as women either.

I see everyone as human, deserving of civil liberties and to be treated with respect and kindness. It's never okay to spew hatred towards a person for being different. It's not okay to discriminate against someone for something like that.

I draw the line on irreversible sex change surgeries for minors. Once you can consent, at 18, go ahead. But before then, nah fam. It's a big decision that should not be made lightly.

I feel like my stance is pretty moderate, but I expect some of you will consider me a bigot for my honesty. And that's okay, whatever. I have no hatred in my heart for anyone.

This is the general consensus among my real-life friends, and that is with trans and gay/lesbian people mixed in the bunch, all knowing each other and interacting in the same neighborhood.

You don’t have to understand or even like why someone is different than you to treat them with dignity and respect. Period.

We’ve become too comfortable with validation these days, people want everyone to love and accept them for everything. That’s simply never going to happen with anyone… whether it’s straight white male me or trans @Crystal or even you. Someone, somewhere, is gonna dislike or even hate us for some reason… known or unbeknownst to us.

The fact remains… that doesn’t mean that anyone has the “right” to not treat that person with the same dignity and respect that they expect people to treat them with.

 

[Ants!]

To be brutally honest:
I don't see trans women as women. I don't see them as men either.
I don't see trans men as men. I don't see them as women either.

I see everyone as human, deserving of civil liberties and to be treated with respect and kindness. It's never okay to spew hatred towards a person for being different. It's not okay to discriminate against someone for something like that.

I draw the line on irreversible sex change surgeries for minors. Once you can consent, at 18, go ahead. But before then, nah fam. It's a big decision that should not be made lightly.

I feel like my stance is pretty moderate, but I expect some of you will consider me a bigot for my honesty. And that's okay, whatever. I have no hatred in my heart for anyone.

Just call them by the gender they identify as, it’s not that hard…

 

[Boots]

Just call them by the gender they identify as, it’s not that hard…

Oh I do. I use whatever pronouns they prefer be it he, she or they. If I'm unsure I default to they. It would be rude not to, like calling someone by the wrong name.

There is a trans woman in the office who uses the women's restroom and only one 60+ coworker had an issue with it. So that woman goes down to the first floor to use the bathroom, stubborn lady. She's downstairs half the time smoking Kool cigarettes anyway. I rarely go into the office just because we are a single car household and I can focus better WFH, but IDGAF about sharing restrooms.

 

[shortkut]

To be brutally honest:
I don't see trans women as women. I don't see them as men either.
I don't see trans men as men. I don't see them as women either.

 

[Ants!]

Oh I do. I use whatever pronouns they prefer be it he, she or they. If I'm unsure I default to they. It would be rude not to, like calling someone by the wrong name.

There is a trans woman in the office who uses the women's restroom and only one 60+ coworker had an issue with it. So that woman goes down to the first floor to use the bathroom, stubborn lady. She's downstairs half the time smoking Kool cigarettes anyway. I rarely go into the office just because we are a single car household and I can focus better WFH, but IDGAF about sharing restrooms.

Fair enough then.

 

[Crystal]

My mother is a lefty so I can say lefty, it's not offensive when I say it.

Excuse me, those of use who aren't must say leftay or lefted-Americans. Political correctness, please! Just like you can't call me ginger, only we can use that word. For you we're ginga or gingas.

To be brutally honest:
I don't see trans women as women. I don't see them as men either.
I don't see trans men as men. I don't see them as women either.

I see everyone as human, deserving of civil liberties and to be treated with respect and kindness. It's never okay to spew hatred towards a person for being different. It's not okay to discriminate against someone for something like that.

I draw the line on irreversible sex change surgeries for minors. Once you can consent, at 18, go ahead. But before then, nah fam. It's a big decision that should not be made lightly.

I feel like my stance is pretty moderate, but I expect some of you will consider me a bigot for my honesty. And that's okay, whatever. I have no hatred in my heart for anyone.

I'd still like to know where these operations are happening, as they are completely illegal under the age of 18. I haven't found any of these cases.