U.S.A. Hundreds More US United Methodist Churches Break With Denomination Over LGBTQ Acceptance

[Webster]

The Guardian: Hundreds more US United Methodist congregations disaffiliate amid LGBTQ+ tensions

Another 250-plus United Methodist congregations have broken with the denomination in north Georgia amid a schism over theology and the role of LGBTQ+ people in the church.

The North Georgia Conference of the United Methodist Church voted Saturday to allow 261 congregations to break away, or disaffiliate, after theological tensions over bans on same-sex marriages and the ordination of clergy who are openly LGBTQ+.

The move, interpreted as conservative congregations choosing to leave rather than debate or accept the views of more moderate factions within the church, has reportedly left about 440 churches remaining in the conference. The denomination said the exit of the congregations marked a "solemn day."

So far 7,286 of about 30,000 United Methodist congregations – many in the US south and midwest – have received approval to disaffiliate from the denomination since 2019, according to an unofficial tally by the United Methodist News Service. That year, the United Methodist Church strengthened bans on same-sex marriage and clergy members with gay partners.

The denomination forbids the marriage or ordination of "self-avowed, practicing homosexuals". But growing defiance against that exclusion has caused conservative-leaning congregations to leave after the church failed to find a path forward. "I realize how sad this time is for many, including myself," said bishop Robin Dease, the leader of the North Georgia Conference. "I just hate that those who are leaving us – I will not have the opportunity to meet or to be with [them]."

The departures will take effect at the end of the year, and the leaving churches will be barred from using the "United Methodist" brand in their new names and logos.

The latest break-away comes four years after a decision by the national United Methodist Church to allow extra time for thousands of congregations to depart after many of their leaders took issue with "a change in the requirements and provisions of the Book of Discipline related to the practice of homosexuality or the ordination or marriage of self-avowed practicing homosexuals".

 

[Raine]

I don't remember drinking today, but I'm having a hell of a time parsing which way is which. Feels like there are minimally two, uh, levels being discussed in tandem perhaps?

Regardless, 24% in ~5 years is a huge blow. And sad, if not completely and utterly unsurprising. Just go out and have reckless, wanton sex with other willing adults en masse and get it out of your systems already you jackasses.

Also,

interpreted as conservative congregations choosing to leave rather than debate or accept the views of more moderate factions

youdontsay.jpg

 

[Webster]

I don't remember drinking today, but I'm having a hell of a time parsing which way is which. Feels like there are minimally two, uh, levels being discussed in tandem perhaps?

Regardless, 24% in ~5 years is a huge blow. And sad, if not completely and utterly unsurprising. Just go out and have reckless, wanton sex with other willing adults en masse and get it out of your systems already you jackasses.

Point of disclosure: I grew up attending a Methodist Church - Denton's Chapel UMC in Burke County, NC - and most of my mom's relatives/both of my parents are buried in the cemetery next to the church and, years from now when I go off to my blessed sleep, that's where I'll be laid to rest as well.

As with other things in society, one's religious faith is increasingly being driven by one's political leanings; for what its' worth I tend to fall, in terms of my own faith, closer to the liberal/progressive side of Christianity (thankfully the Seventh-Day Adventist Church, whose local church here in Western NC I currently am a member of, hasn't been affected by the above schism...yet.). Within denominations such as the UMC, there is a clear schism btwn traditional/conservative Methodists and the more liberal elements of the UMC (including the church's top leadership) and its' finally broken out into a full-blown break with the conservative elements forming their own denomination, the Global Methodist Church.

The sad part is that, at some point, Christianity as a whole is going to have to decide what to do over the issue of homosexuality - either accept that there are LGBTQ church members (such as myself, for instance) or remain fixed, rigid and schismatic) and risk not just losing members and believers but also continuing the marginalization of Christianity throughout society.

Global Methodist Church - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Religion and LGBT people - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Christianity and homosexuality - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[Kat]

continuing the marginalization of Christianity throughout society.

Um what?

I don't remember drinking today, but I'm having a hell of a time parsing which way is which. Feels like there are minimally two, uh, levels being discussed in tandem perhaps?

It's not just you. I read it twice and I'm still confused. It says UMC banned same sex marriage and queer clergy, and conservative congregations are leaving due to a difference in opinion about how to treat queer people. It seems unlikely conservatives want the rules to be friendlier, so what's actually going on?

 

[Raine]

The sad part is that, at some point, Christianity as a whole is going to have to decide what to do over the issue of homosexuality - either accept that there are LGBTQ church members (such as myself, for instance) or remain fixed, rigid and schismatic) and risk not just losing members and believers but also continuing the marginalization of Christianity throughout society.

Pretty much. And not just Christianity, but most religions that I'm vaguely familiar with. And not just matters concerning LGBT folk, but even super basic stuff like... y'know, men not owning women. Still. In 2023.

To say that I'm personally hostile towards organized religion would be an understatement. But, I'm neither against (any) religion nor automatically think less of religious people as a baseline. People actively choose to ignore parts of their alleged code all the time; choosing hate is universally lame.

Um what?

On a macro scale, millennials are significantly more agnostic or atheist than their parents. And zoomers are even less engaged with - and actively hostile towards - organized religion than us. The last 7~8 years in particular has been a relative bloodbath for how generally accepted Christianity is perceived as being. That's not to say they're marginalized or oppressed or anything, they're still the biggest and most influential by orders of magnitude. Simply, relative where they were fairly recently and should they continue to allow hate and division to fester, they will continue to see massive falloff as the older generations pass on and the younger generations reject their teachings.

Something like this video encapsulates the primary elephant in the room:

 

[Kat]

On a macro scale, millennials are significantly more agnostic or atheist than their parents. And zoomers are even less engaged with - and actively hostile towards - organized religion than us. The last 7~8 years in particular has been a relative bloodbath for how generally accepted Christianity is perceived as being.

Sure, but...

That's not to say they're marginalized or oppressed or anything, they're still the biggest and most influential by orders of magnitude.

That's literally what Webster said, though. People not joining a religion is not the same thing as that religion being marginalized. Almost nobody would have a problem with Christianity if they weren't (as an organization, I understand not all individuals are on board) constantly trying to push legislation to deny people their rights. Getting pushback due to attempts to marginalize others does not make them marginalized themselves.

 

[Webster]

On a macro scale, millennials are significantly more agnostic or atheist than their parents. And zoomers are even less engaged with - and actively hostile towards - organized religion than us. The last 7~8 years in particular has been a relative bloodbath for how generally accepted Christianity is perceived as being. That's not to say they're marginalized or oppressed or anything, they're still the biggest and most influential by orders of magnitude. Simply, relative where they were fairly recently and should they continue to allow hate and division to fester, they will continue to see massive falloff as the older generations pass on and the younger generations reject their teachings.

Raine explained it very well there, @Kat, to answer your question and they're right about the rise of Christian nationalism. (Apologies if I got the pronoun "they're" wrong there, Raine; I couldn't think of what pronoun to use so I opted for 'they're').

The LGBTQ question isn't the only one causing heartburn; there's also the issue of ordaining women as pastors. That issue alone saw a couple large churches - Saddleback Church in Orange Co. CA and Elevation Church in the Charlotte-Mecklenburg area - leave the Southern Baptist Convention.

Then there's all the child sexual abuse cases that've occurred over the past few decades (and not just in the Catholic Church either) and the growing secularization of society and its' either adapt with the times or remain fixed and unchanging, which would not be good given all the good things that most churches do during the course of the year (food banks, homeless/domestic violence shelters, pastoral counseling, low-income assistance, etc.).

 

[Raine]

That's literally what Webster said, though. People not joining a religion is not the same thing as that religion being marginalized. Almost nobody would have a problem with Christianity if they weren't (as an organization, I understand not all individuals are on board) constantly trying to push legislation to deny people their rights. Getting pushback due to attempts to marginalize others does not make them marginalized themselves.

Oh yeah, I know. But it's technically correct - English is a dumb language, etc etc. Marginalization can also just be the process of becoming marginalized, through the actions of others or themselves. Since they're extraordinarily pigheaded and, as noted, trying to limit the freedoms and expressions of basically everyone except cisgender straight, white Protestant men (of a certain age)... shockingly they're finding that, yeah, they themselves are increasingly the ones becoming social pariahs. Which is probably the word/phrase I would default to in casual conversation, since that's a bit more clear.

Apologies if I got the pronoun "they're" wrong there, Raine; I couldn't think of what pronoun to use so I opted for 'they're'.

Oh no worries, hedging bets and going with they/them is universally the safest approach!

Solidly she/her, but also not terribly bothered.

which would not be good given all the good things that most churches do during the course of the year (food banks, homeless/domestic violence shelters, pastoral counseling, low-income assistance, etc.).

Absolutely. And poor people - especially poor Black people in the deep south - still skew heavily towards being religious because of this in my experience and observations. Because, if you'll pardon me for a moment... Participating in the true Word of God and not whatever in Baphomet's fucking name Christian Nationalists, hate groups and Televangelists (I understand that the Venn Diagram there is basically a circle) have been going on about for at least the ~40 years I've been kicking rocks on this dust bowl.

I do think it's worth mentioning that participation in Church activities/attending Mass and actually being religious are mutually exclusive too, which isn't necessarily captured or reflected by the large generational drops in surveys.

 

[Webster]

Absolutely. And poor people - especially poor Black people in the deep south - still skew heavily towards being religious because of this in my experience and observations. Because, if you'll pardon me for a moment... Participating in the true Word of God and not whatever in Baphomet's fucking name Christian Nationalists, hate groups and Televangelists (I understand that the Venn Diagram there is basically a circle) have been going on about for at least the ~40 years I've been kicking rocks on this dust bowl.

I do think it's worth mentioning that participation in Church activities/attending Mass and actually being religious are mutually exclusive too, which isn't necessarily captured or reflected by the large generational drops in surveys.

You'd be surprised to see how full a lot of black churches - particularly w/in denominations such as the AME (African Methodist Episocal), Church of God in Christ and National Baptist Convention - are and that's primarily because, especially across the South, the black church was a center of their community both pre-Civil War and post-Civil War and that's not really changed any.

What's long galled me though, Raine, is how a lot evangelical Christians who really should know better all but sold their souls to Trump in supporting him - I mean, as uninspired as I was in Hillary Clinton back in 2016, for them to support a thrice-married serial sexual predator and power-hungry wannabe-fascist just beggars explanation. Far as I'm concerned, if you;re evangelical and you supported Trump, you don't get to claim the moral high ground as far as I;m concerned.

Oh no worries, hedging bets and going with they/them is universally the safest approach!

Solidly she/her, but also not terribly bothered.

No problem; I asked the same questions to @Crystal over on another forum a while back and got pretty much the same answer.

 

[Ants!]