Canada is fucked (a rant)

[Smacktard]

I really didn't ever think I would be one of those "darn immigrants!" types growing up, but Canada's economy and immigration policies are causing the country to go off the rails.

In 2023 alone, we're taking in over 3% of our entire population in just one year.

I wouldn't have as much of a problem with this, except for the fact that Canada can barely accommodate its own citizens. The healthcare system is fucked, housing prices are through the roof, and there aren't enough new construction projects to accommodate the local population -- forget about immigrants.

There are plenty of stories of foreign students coming to Canada, unable to find accommodation: students from India being sold a false dream, only to have to go door-to-door begging people to stay in their basements because they can't find a place to stay. I'm not making this up, either -- this is a real example from my hometown, where, also, another Indian student died in a fire within the past couple of years due to having to live in overcrowded and unsafe conditions.

It really feels like Canada is using immigration as a crutch for their ailing GDP. Population as a percentage of GDP has been on the decline for a long time.

I may sound alarmist, but I'm upset for the future of my country. I had hoped to one day return home and live out my twilight years, but increasingly I see it as less and less realistic. Every time I return home, my friends tell me how fucked everything is. They can't afford to do anything, they can't afford housing, they can't afford to have more than one child. Even fucking elementary school Christmas concerts are being canceled in some parts of the country, out of respect for "inclusion" -- (which I'm increasingly understanding to mean "exclusion, but for everyone").

I'll only just briefly touch on ethnic and cultural tensions that are being imported into Canada: Indian immigrants siding with the Indian government accused of assassinating a Sikh Canadian national on Canadian soil; anti-LGBTQ+ and antisemitic Muslims coming from various parts of the world.

It's dire.

And the worst part is, we don't have any real options for political parties in Canada. The choice is between a Liberal government exacerbating financial problems for average Canadians and importing WAY too many people into the country, or a Conservative government that wants to resolve financial issues, but which wants to maintain current immigration targets while continuing to be anti-LGBTQ+ assholes who offer only bon mots.

I'm upset because I loved my country. I was proud to be Canadian. Every time I returned home, I FELT like it was home -- even when interacting with people I'd never met before. I was proud of our country's diversity, proud of the immigrants we accepted during the Syria crisis. But now it just pains me to see the typical Canadian household suffer so that the government can massage its financials, and false promises can be marketed to eager Indian students who don't know any better, business owners can hire labor on the cheap, and the elite can continue to prosper at the expense of the average

/rant

 

[Smacktard]

Also I saw someone make the argument that people who immigrate to other countries are hypocrites if they are against immigration, which seems like such a simplistic and absent-minded argument.

You can immigrate to another country that doesn't suffer from a host of issues like housing, culture clash, etc., while not supporting excessive and underregulated immigration to your home country which is unable to effectively support such immigration.

 

[Fool's Requiem]

If you think it's bad there, imagine how bad it must be in their home country for someone to want to emigrate to a frozen wasteland.

I think there are two major issues:

1. Overpopulation
2. Poor distribution of wealth

both issues I don't see anyone correcting in the near future.

 

[Smacktard]

imagine how bad it must be in their home country for someone to want to emigrate to a frozen wasteland.

Absolutely, but that doesn't mean it's Canada's responsibility to shoulder the difficulties and mismanagement of other countries.

But a problem, at least with numerous Indian students coming to th country, is that they're sold lies by recruiters. There was an interview with an Indian student who said that she has to return to India because the reality of life here was completely misrepresented and she can't afford to continue living and studying in Canada.

 

[GwJumpman]

Immigration has been one of the most confusing things for me to figure out in terms of what I should even support and what is right. It feels obvious to me that everyone is human so we should be as humanitarian as possible and we should welcome things like taking in refugees and accepting immigration.

But on the other hand it is also kind of obvious that if you introduce a certain level of non-Americans into America that it can disrupt (not saying negative or positive) the current state of the country's culture in a way that many current Americans probably find bad. I'm told statistically that immigration is good for the country economically and I don't think that's outright false or anything. There's definitely an element of American nationalism that I have (that probably every American has to some extent) that feels like it's warning me about not losing what we have but it conflicts with what I feel is ethical.

It feels so easy to just point at immigrants and be like "bad!" so you can defend whatever it is the current status quo is, but it's honestly such a confusing thing to come to a conclusion about to the point that I personally don't even know how I feel about it all.

 

[Mark]

View attachment 4503
I really didn't ever think I would be one of those "darn immigrants!" types growing up, but Canada's economy and immigration policies are causing the country to go off the rails.

In 2023 alone, we're taking in over 3% of our entire population in just one year.

I wouldn't have as much of a problem with this, except for the fact that Canada can barely accommodate its own citizens. The healthcare system is fucked, housing prices are through the roof, and there aren't enough new construction projects to accommodate the local population -- forget about immigrants.

There are plenty of stories of foreign students coming to Canada, unable to find accommodation: students from India being sold a false dream, only to have to go door-to-door begging people to stay in their basements because they can't find a place to stay. I'm not making this up, either -- this is a real example from my hometown, where, also, another Indian student died in a fire within the past couple of years due to having to live in overcrowded and unsafe conditions.

It really feels like Canada is using immigration as a crutch for their ailing GDP. Population as a percentage of GDP has been on the decline for a long time.

I may sound alarmist, but I'm upset for the future of my country. I had hoped to one day return home and live out my twilight years, but increasingly I see it as less and less realistic. Every time I return home, my friends tell me how fucked everything is. They can't afford to do anything, they can't afford housing, they can't afford to have more than one child. Even fucking elementary school Christmas concerts are being canceled in some parts of the country, out of respect for "inclusion" -- (which I'm increasingly understanding to mean "exclusion, but for everyone").

I'll only just briefly touch on ethnic and cultural tensions that are being imported into Canada: Indian immigrants siding with the Indian government accused of assassinating a Sikh Canadian national on Canadian soil; anti-LGBTQ+ and antisemitic Muslims coming from various parts of the world.

It's dire.

And the worst part is, we don't have any real options for political parties in Canada. The choice is between a Liberal government exacerbating financial problems for average Canadians and importing WAY too many people into the country, or a Conservative government that wants to resolve financial issues, but which wants to maintain current immigration targets while continuing to be anti-LGBTQ+ assholes who offer only bon mots.

I'm upset because I loved my country. I was proud to be Canadian. Every time I returned home, I FELT like it was home -- even when interacting with people I'd never met before. I was proud of our country's diversity, proud of the immigrants we accepted during the Syria crisis. But now it just pains me to see the typical Canadian household suffer so that the government can massage its financials, and false promises can be marketed to eager Indian students who don't know any better, business owners can hire labor on the cheap, and the elite can continue to prosper at the expense of the average

/rant

This really echoes what I’ve heard here in the states, about over in the UK (specifically, Ireland most recently), and now Canada. It becomes a treacherous subject pretty quickly, because a lot of people don’t want to have that conversation without either bringing up colonialism, imperialism, or the OP’s own ancestral migratory history.

Also I saw someone make the argument that people who immigrate to other countries are hypocrites if they are against immigration, which seems like such a simplistic and absent-minded argument.

You can immigrate to another country that doesn't suffer from a host of issues like housing, culture clash, etc., while not supporting excessive and underregulated immigration to your home country which is unable to effectively support such immigration.

Yeah, that is definitely an ugly debate… and we’ve seen that unfold over here in the US when liberal cities protested for open borders up until they had buses of immigrants on their doorstep. I don’t necessarily agree with bussing people across the country, but Texas straight up isn’t equipped to deal with that kind of flood, has vehemently opposed open border policy, and subsequently has been the one bearing the burden of a large portion of border crossings despite that. Cities like New York, the former hub of immigration to the country, can’t even handle it along with their own homeless population. There were reports put out in the national news over Thanksgiving weekend stating that homeless New Yorkers missed hot meals because the newly bussed in migrants got to them first.

A lot of people like to scream racism or xenophobia or whatever when someone brings up immigration, but the reality is that every single factor said by those labeled as such becomes a reality… and people screaming about open borders don’t realize it until it’s on their doorstep. There are stricter immigration laws in countries that first-world countries consider third-world, and that speaks volumes. I’ve known plenty of people who have migrated to America over the course of my life… some will straight up admit to using our fucked up laws to benefit in ways natural-born citizens cannot, some will straight up call those people out and cite them as the need for a legal and stringent process for citizenship. If there’s that kind of divide among the actual immigrants, what does that say about everyone else?

 

[A Slightly New Used Server]

and we’ve seen that unfold over here in the US when liberal cities protested for open borders up until they had buses of immigrants on their doorstep

The problem with this move is that a lot of them were sent to places where there's literally no immigration. Martha's Vineyard? Why the hell would immigrants try to go to an expensive AF tiny island? Boston would have been able to accept them, and it would have been cheaper to send them there.

Also, in that instance, the response was "why the fuck did you send them here?" before feeding them, giving them temporary housing and weather appropriate clothes, and then moving them to Boston where they were actually ready to take on immigrants.

Other busloads went to politician's houses, as opposed to immigration centers.


Yeah, there's likely going to be issues with processing that many immigrants at once basically anywhere, but the locations were specifically chosen to make it look worse.

 

[Mark]

The problem with this move is that a lot of them were sent to places where there's literally no immigration. Martha's Vineyard? Why the hell would immigrants try to go to an expensive AF tiny island? Boston would have been able to accept them, and it would have been cheaper to send them there.

I don’t agree with the motive behind bussing them to those kinds of places. It’s purely political, and being petty like that destroys the valid message that opponents of open borders have.

Also, in that instance, the response was "why the fuck did you send them here?" before feeding them, giving them temporary housing and weather appropriate clothes, and then moving them to Boston where they were actually ready to take on immigrants.

And think about the financial burden that put on those smaller communities… yeah, they might be more affluent than some other places, but the infrastructure just isn’t there and the funds have to come from somewhere.

Other busloads went to politician's houses, as opposed to immigration centers.

That’s the petty part I mentioned above. It’s childish as hell and absolutely disgusting to see a politician use busloads of people to prove a point, but it’s the landscape we live in… neither side surprise me.

Yeah, there's likely going to be issues with processing that many immigrants at once basically anywhere, but the locations were specifically chosen to make it look worse.

I wouldn’t say it was to make it look worse, it doesn’t take a genius to recognize the severity of the ordeal. However, it was certainly intended to send a very clear and deliberate message quite literally dropping them on doorsteps of certain people. I don’t think either side *needs* to make it look any worse, it can’t… one side has people loading convoys of immigrants to prove a point, the other is reaping the consequences of their compassion while watching even more people struggle to find housing and meals in the upcoming winter.

 

[A Slightly New Used Server]

I wouldn’t say it was to make it look worse, it doesn’t take a genius to recognize the severity of the ordeal. However, it was certainly intended to send a very clear and deliberate message quite literally dropping them on doorsteps of certain people. I don’t think either side *needs* to make it look any worse, it can’t… one side has people loading convoys of immigrants to prove a point, the other is reaping the consequences of their compassion while watching even more people struggle to find housing and meals in the upcoming winter.

It would be one thing to say "one side is lacking an understanding of what it means to be on the border" and then send the immigrants to a place that has any kind of staffing at all, but it's completely different to send them to a place where there is knowingly no staffing at all.

Yes, border cities/states take on more. But they also have things in place to help with that.

It would be like if somehow Buffalo could choose where to send half the snow they get in a season and then send it to Texas. It's bad in Buffalo and can wreak havoc for a while, but they get through it because there's actual infrastructure in place. Meanwhile a random place in Texas probably won't have any kind of plowing or salting infrastructure in place and the result would be that entire portion of the state is in an emergency shutdown requiring assistance. Whereas if the snow were sent to another northern city, yeah it would still suck but they'd know how to deal with the influx much better than other places.

The locations where they were sent were deliberate to make it worse, more so than just "liberal city"

 

[Mark]

It would be one thing to say "one side is lacking an understanding of what it means to be on the border" and then send the immigrants to a place that has any kind of staffing at all, but it's completely different to send them to a place where there is knowingly no staffing at all.

Yes, border cities/states take on more. But they also have things in place to help with that.

It would be like if somehow Buffalo could choose where to send half the snow they get in a season and then send it to Texas. It's bad in Buffalo and can wreak havoc for a while, but they get through it because there's actual infrastructure in place. Meanwhile a random place in Texas probably won't have any kind of plowing or salting infrastructure in place and the result would be that entire portion of the state is in an emergency shutdown requiring assistance. Whereas if the snow were sent to another northern city, yeah it would still suck but they'd know how to deal with the influx much better than other places.

The locations where they were sent were deliberate to make it worse, more so than just "liberal city"

That’s actually a pretty good analogy considering how we saw Texas crippled by snow that you or I would take the car out on a donut in for funsies being from the east coast.

The other thing… to give credit to those communities, how many of them did we hear about that stepped up and handled business to make sure those people didn’t starve and die thousands of miles from the closest familiar sight they last saw? This story definitely showed the ugly side of a lot of people, but it also showed that we still have a good deal of decent humans out there.

 

[A Slightly New Used Server]

That’s actually a pretty good analogy considering how we saw Texas crippled by snow that you or I would take the car out on a donut in for funsies being from the east coast.

The other thing… to give credit to those communities, how many of them did we hear about that stepped up and handled business to make sure those people didn’t starve and die thousands of miles from the closest familiar sight they last saw? This story definitely showed the ugly side of a lot of people, but it also showed that we still have a good deal of decent humans out there.

Oh for sure - I was very proud of those rich and smug bastards over on Martha's Vineyard for stepping up like they did.

Back to the topic at hand:

Yeah, immigration can solve some problems in countries (specifically in countries with lower birth rates/population replacement rates as a way to ensure an increasing workforce), but you can't just take everyone in all at once or you'll overwhelm the system and make it worse for everyone involved. It needs to be planned out in a way that the people coming over are able to be supported and that the locals already in the community can continue to live and grow themselves. We shouldn't just end immigration, obviously, but we need to be smart about it.

 

[Smacktard]

I can't say I'm shocked that the conversation veered toward American immigration policy, but I am a little bit disappointed. I know there are parallels, but illegal immigrants aren't exactly the same thing as a very open immigration policy espoused by all serious parties.

immigration can solve some problems in countries (specifically in countries with lower birth rates/population replacement rates as a way to ensure an increasing workforce),

Whenever someone talks about the issue of a declining/stagnant population, I can't help but think that this supports my belief that pensions are largely a Ponzi scheme, or a can of crap being kicked to the next generation to deal with.

With advancements in AI and other various technologies, do we really NEED a growing population in order to provide our population with necessities? Japan has a declining population, but it seems they've opted to decline and maintain a decent standard of living for its citizens while maintaining/without threatening its cultural values (for better or worse). I like this idea.

 

[A Slightly New Used Server]

I can't say I'm shocked that the conversation veered toward American immigration policy, but I am a little bit disappointed. I know there are parallels, but illegal immigrants aren't exactly the same thing as a very open immigration policy espoused by all serious parties.

Whenever someone talks about the issue of a declining/stagnant population, I can't help but think that this supports my belief that pensions are largely a Ponzi scheme, or a can of crap being kicked to the next generation to deal with.

With advancements in AI and other various technologies, do we really NEED a growing population in order to provide our population with necessities? Japan has a declining population, but it seems they've opted to decline and maintain a decent standard of living for its citizens while maintaining/without threatening its cultural values (for better or worse). I like this idea.

It's not so much pensions that become the issue as it is continued growth of the economy.

Automation and AI should help (if done right... Which is questionable at best). But if growth stalls or if there's a decline then oh no the world is ending kill the government and make it better.

 

[Smacktard]

It's not so much pensions that become the issue as it is continued growth of the economy.

Yes but why does the economy need to continue to grow?

Isn't it to service ever-growing debt, including pension plans, healthcare, government, etc.?

 

[A Slightly New Used Server]

Yes but why does the economy need to continue to grow?

Isn't it to service ever-growing debt, including pension plans, healthcare, government, etc.?

Capitalism.

Otherwise the US economy wouldn't need to grow based on most of your list.

Also it's about competing with the rest if the world and coming out ahead. And why there are terms for non-growing economies as well as shrinking ones. Economic stagnation means you're falling behind.

On a smaller scale it's why a company that isn't growing is usually viewed in a poor light. You can't just make a good product and coast, you need to show improvement over time in terms of what you bring in or you'll lose investors. Oh also you'll need those investors because if they don't go with you they'll go with competition and put you out of business.